2024-25 Season Discussion and Speculation Part IV

[lilfishi22]

Slim you think Myer would work for Wishbia? I can’t see any GM who has good success would want to be a part of this front office without assurances that they are running the show.

Don’t think the MadMatter is bored enough with this new toy for him to pass it on. Lap dog Jones is the ideal GM for our meddler. Looks to me we have to officially crash then burn, which likely includes yet another all or nothing round.

Yay us

Money talks.

Plus, he knows the division and conference as he's been going against it for the last decade. He also knows the Dubs as he helped build them.

A trade of Booker will bring in a franchise changing amount of assests-if they do it right. That's tempting for amy GM and players will sign here if we ever get under the cap again lol.

So, yes. I think he'd jump at the chance as long as he's given free will without Ishiba interfering.

The Ishbia factor could be real but given his resume, I'd highly doubt he wouldn't have the pick of the litter if he was to come back to manage a team again. Again, money will be a factor but probably not as much as you'd think. A lot of teams would pay and pay well for his services

[lilfishi22]

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As long as Tyus goes to the bench, I'm alright with bringing Beal back

I mean we're pretty much screwed anyways this season, so I guess why not right?

It sucks that we'll take from one hole to fill another, meaning that even though we've already tried this Booker/ Beal starting lineup and it was aweful, I guess if something doesn't/ hasn't worked previously, you gotta keep trying it until it does work. That's lol..........
basically our franchise. What's the definition of insanity again??

But as I was saying, in taking from the bench, will restore redundancy to our starting lineup again while taking depth and production off our bench to make it worse. Filling one hole while creating another. What'd truly be laughable would be if Bud still kept Tyus starting too in a lineup of Jones/ Beal/ Booker/ KD / Richards.

Was it awful though? If we're taking this season as a barometer, yeah it wasn't good but that's with a useless Nurk/Mason at the 5 and Tyus Jones. Last season, 9th in offense, 13th on defense, 9th in net rating.

As for redundancy, I'd rather have redundancy than a negative

[Ghost of Kleine]

Then our pick is higher....and Houston has more leverage in a trade. Thats not good.

What we need is to make the play-in or even the playoffs. Then get our doors blown off. 4-0 sweep or a whooping in the play-in.

So that we get killed on a national stage and Ishbia and Jones csnt hide from the truth that we need a rebuild.

This is why it'll be critically important for us to make absolutely sure we get back our 25' 1st in a KD to Houston trade. Then we can trade back in the draft with Brooklyn for the 21st,23rd, and 26th picks in this draft, and then the Brooklyn 26' 1st last (lottery protected). Then we can fill our roster with multiple young, long, physical, very athletic talents for our future core. And with those young talents being cost-controlled for the next 4 years, then we'd also have the cap flexibility to actually sign better quality free agent pieces to put around them.

I'd rather get already proven players and keep our pick. Gimme Jabari, Jalen Green and our picks for Durant and I'm happy.

Then either keep Jalen or send him to Detroit and see if we can buy low on Ausar while getting them to add Ivey hopefully. I'll even throw in something extra if need be. Pistons have a rookie SF already there and Ausar hasn't been as good as his brother.

Pistons need someone else besides Cade that can score and the 2 of them would make an awesome backcourt. Kinda like what we were supposed to get when we had JKidd and Penny Hardaway all those years ago.

I'd be happy with a package of Smith Jr/ J Green/ALL 3 of our 1sts back!!! (Especially our 25' 1st ) Now I will say that I don't think we'd get BOTH J Green and Jabari Smith, not because KD doesn't have that level of trade value, but moreso because our front office is completely inept and very weak in negotiations and asset valuation. Jones has easily lost more trades than he's won from a value perspective.

I'd also love to get Asuar Thompson too. But not sure that Detroit would actually want J Green with already having Ivy at the same position (in a similar archetype) but on a much cheaper contract. But If they would do it, then I'd be all for it, man! (As long as we'd be getting back Ivey to replace J Green? Curious as to what you meant by getting already proven players through/ Did you mean that If we were to trade KD to Houston and get our 25' 1st back in the package, you'd prefer to use it on vets rather than trading back for additional draft assets/ picks? And IF yes, who would you choose to trade the 25' lottery pick for? (vet player)??

[ChuckS]

For sure KD and Booker are a very solid star duo, and not overtly the crux of our superteams' failures upon reflection. But they still represent a big contributory part (even if not the apex issue) of our problems in that their lack of tenacity and overall urgency/ general situational apathy contribute to that same lack of urgency/apathy filtering down throughout the entire roster that obviously looks upon them to lead despite neither committing to or desiring to even do so.

I personally do not believe that KD and Book are even covertly responsible for our teams' failures. But I admit to being more influenced by the great coaches, teammates, and other league greats who have reason to know the truth first hand. I will speak mostly to Durant of whom most of these have expressed admiration, but I also have great respect for Booker. I accept differences of opinion, but quite frankly find it hard to believe that any knowledgeable fan could believe it possible to achieve such excellence with a lack of tenacity, overall urgency, or even situational apathy.

But again, neither KD or Book have shown the consistent propensity or desire to take over games and lead us to a deep playoff outcome for the values they're paid! Instead, they appear to just go through the motions "unbothered" or unfazed by our distressing situation. Often being seen laughing, joking, etc on the sidelines showing little if any competitive commitment to our critical outcome in which thy do have the talent and clout top directly influence.

...But again, they just appear to enjoy the general premise of personal accolades and playing basketball without any genuine instances of competitive investment to our teams; success.

I always respect your writings, so quite frankly do not know why I so disagree. But I think your opinion assumes facts to me not evidenced. I've seen their combativeness on the court against opponents, refs, and even sideline hecklers. The only time I've seen them laughing on the bench is when the scrubs are in to close a loss, and then only remember one such incident. This is a universal show of support for guys who work hard but rarely see the court.

So while our star duo are truly great offensive talents, neither are leaders in any sense of the word. Neither shows competitive fire, tenacity, or any sense of urgency despite knowing well the gravity of our situation and our long-stated goals in building this team.

It's inconceivable to me that an all time great like KD would not be considered a leader in any locker room. Coaches claim that even at his age he outworks even the youngest. That is another form of competitive fire. This isn't limited to in season either. His work with Dunn over the summer was instrumental in the rookie's transformation from college.

For sure KD and Booker are a very solid star duo, and not overtly the crux of our superteams' failures upon reflection. But they still represent a big contributory part (even if not the apex issue) of our problems in that their lack of tenacity and overall urgency/ general situational apathy contribute to that same lack of urgency/apathy filtering down throughout the entire roster that obviously looks upon them to lead despite neither committing to or desiring to even do so.

I left this until last because how can I prove that KD and Book are not responsible for the mediocrities in our roster? I'll just agree to disagree.

One of the main reasons why some fans think that KD and Book are responsible for our lack of success is their lack of concentration and lack of aggressive defense.

So many times they are watching the primary action on the ball and they lose their man allowing an offensive board, a cut or going late 1 second when rotating on defense.

Here you have an example of KD not boxing out.

https://youtube.com/shorts/5In3z6DL4f4?si=YqbV2d3Rt81Vqizz

I love KD and Book and I think that they are great but they must improve their focus on details like that because that makes a huge difference in games. Every player can have an off play here and there but they have had too many of those IMO and that's one of the reasons why we haven't win so many games even when shooting the ball pretty well.

I could be wrong. I'm good at that. But I do not believe I have to defend KD and Book to you. So with sincerest apologies I will not. I had enough trouble with "lack of tenacity, overall urgency, and situational apathy". "Lack of concentration", a missed box out, and particularly "defense" might be easier, but I'm just not up to it right now. Be assured, though, that I still believe that Kevin and Devin are the least our problems.

[Slim Charless]

This is why it'll be critically important for us to make absolutely sure we get back our 25' 1st in a KD to Houston trade. Then we can trade back in the draft with Brooklyn for the 21st,23rd, and 26th picks in this draft, and then the Brooklyn 26' 1st last (lottery protected). Then we can fill our roster with multiple young, long, physical, very athletic talents for our future core. And with those young talents being cost-controlled for the next 4 years, then we'd also have the cap flexibility to actually sign better quality free agent pieces to put around them.

I'd rather get already proven players and keep our pick. Gimme Jabari, Jalen Green and our picks for Durant and I'm happy.

Then either keep Jalen or send him to Detroit and see if we can buy low on Ausar while getting them to add Ivey hopefully. I'll even throw in something extra if need be. Pistons have a rookie SF already there and Ausar hasn't been as good as his brother.

Pistons need someone else besides Cade that can score and the 2 of them would make an awesome backcourt. Kinda like what we were supposed to get when we had JKidd and Penny Hardaway all those years ago.

I'd be happy with a package of Smith Jr/ J Green/ALL 3 of our 1sts back!!! (Especially our 25' 1st ) Now I will say that I don't think we'd get BOTH J Green and Jabari Smith, not because KD doesn't have that level of trade value, but moreso because our front office is completely inept and very weak in negotiations and asset valuation. Jones has easily lost more trades than he's won from a value perspective.

I'd also love to get Asuar Thompson too. But not sure that Detroit would actually want J Green with already having Ivy at the same position (in a similar archetype) but on a much cheaper contract. But If they would do it, then I'd be all for it, man! (As long as we'd be getting back Ivey to replace J Green? Curious as to what you meant by getting already proven players through/ Did you mean that If we were to trade KD to Houston and get our 25' 1st back in the package, you'd prefer to use it on vets rather than trading back for additional draft assets/ picks? And IF yes, who would you choose to trade the 25' lottery pick for? (vet player)??

Yeah. I'd rather not trade it for multiple Brooklyn picks and just keep that pick. Then, with those spots aquire players like in my example, Ausar, Ivey along with Jabari. I'd be willing to make the difference up to Detroit via other firsts. Late ones, tho like our potential CLV pick coming up. Add that to the Jalen Green deal and hopefully get Ausar and Ivey.

[lilfishi22]

Butler's playing well for GSW. KD screwed us by refusing the trade. While I'd hate giving Jimmy a max + losing picks, him replacing KD + gaining assets would've been nice.

Only way Suns make the playoffs is Kings who also have a hard schedule lose more than us. Then need to win two play in games. I'd put making the playoffs at 10% likelihood.

I thought we’d get picks in that trade? Not lose them?

I had something longer typed out on making the playoffs then I realized I agreed with everything you said lol. Maybe a slight favorite to pass the Kings if I’m being generous. Can’t see us passing anyone else unless the Mavs start to fall apart after that disaster trade, but they are still playing hard. 10% sounds about right on the playoffs.

Quite frankly, even if there were a net addition in draft capital, I'd rather not have to extend Jimmy. I don't look at GS playing well as indication that it would've been the right deal for us. At the end of the day, yes they are playing well and they are happy with the trade, but I don't think their situation should dictate whether it would've been a good deal for us.

Ultimately clean books is almost as important as having draft capital in a reload/rebuild and having Jimmy in the books at the max for another couple of years and on a team that may not be particularly competitive, that is a recipe for disaster.

[BobbieL]

Suns are going to be pretty screwed with the fans, because if we trade Book we won't be very good, and many fans will say we never should have traded him, but if we keep him we won't be very good, and many fans will say we should have traded him.

Ishbia needs to listen to the fans that want to trade him - as that is the reality of the pathway to getting better
It might seem like a step back - but if you do it right, its a step back to go forward

Keeping Booker will just be stuck in neutral

[BobbieL]

Missing the play-in is the best thing that can happen to us as it is the only thing that could force our idiot of an owner to blow it up and trade those two...

Agree 100%.

The worst thing that could happen is make the play-in game, win and for Ishbia to think the team is trending

But getting blown out by the RAptors at halftime - not sure he will have to worry about that!

Time for Ishbia to call Bob Myers

[Slim Charless]

Butler's playing well for GSW. KD screwed us by refusing the trade. While I'd hate giving Jimmy a max + losing picks, him replacing KD + gaining assets would've been nice.

Only way Suns make the playoffs is Kings who also have a hard schedule lose more than us. Then need to win two play in games. I'd put making the playoffs at 10% likelihood.

I thought we’d get picks in that trade? Not lose them?

I had something longer typed out on making the playoffs then I realized I agreed with everything you said lol. Maybe a slight favorite to pass the Kings if I’m being generous. Can’t see us passing anyone else unless the Mavs start to fall apart after that disaster trade, but they are still playing hard. 10% sounds about right on the playoffs.

We were gonna get picks. 2 firsts and 2 seconds. Kuminga, Butler and Valencuinas as well.

This is why I think we'll get a good return on him in the summer.

[BobbieL]

Butler's playing well for GSW. KD screwed us by refusing the trade. While I'd hate giving Jimmy a max + losing picks, him replacing KD + gaining assets would've been nice.

Only way Suns make the playoffs is Kings who also have a hard schedule lose more than us. Then need to win two play in games. I'd put making the playoffs at 10% likelihood.

I thought we’d get picks in that trade? Not lose them?

I had something longer typed out on making the playoffs then I realized I agreed with everything you said lol. Maybe a slight favorite to pass the Kings if I’m being generous. Can’t see us passing anyone else unless the Mavs start to fall apart after that disaster trade, but they are still playing hard. 10% sounds about right on the playoffs.

Quite frankly, even if there were a net addition in draft capital, I'd rather not have to extend Jimmy. I don't look at GS playing well as indication that it would've been the right deal for us. At the end of the day, yes they are playing well and they are happy with the trade, but I don't think their situation should dictate whether it would've been a good deal for us.

Ultimately clean books is almost as important as having draft capital in a reload/rebuild and having Jimmy in the books at the max for another couple of years and on a team that may not be particularly competitive, that is a recipe for disaster.[/quote]

Correct answer!

Trade Booker, trade Durant, ride out Beal - maybe summer of 2026 after next season, might be more options - start building. If you can, move O'Neal and Allen for expirings. Its all about young players, draft picks and cap space

[Ghost of Kleine]

As long as Tyus goes to the bench, I'm alright with bringing Beal back

I mean we're pretty much screwed anyways this season, so I guess why not right?

It sucks that we'll take from one hole to fill another, meaning that even though we've already tried this Booker/ Beal starting lineup and it was aweful, I guess if something doesn't/ hasn't worked previously, you gotta keep trying it until it does work. That's lol..........
basically our franchise. What's the definition of insanity again??

But as I was saying, in taking from the bench, will restore redundancy to our starting lineup again while taking depth and production off our bench to make it worse. Filling one hole while creating another. What'd truly be laughable would be if Bud still kept Tyus starting too in a lineup of Jones/ Beal/ Booker/ KD / Richards.

Was it awful though? If we're taking this season as a barometer, yeah it wasn't good but that's with a useless Nurk/Mason at the 5 and Tyus Jones. Last season, 9th in offense, 13th on defense, 9th in net rating.

As for redundancy, I'd rather have redundancy than a negative

Well, according to out overall record, net rating, etc it was. Even though we were apparently better last season. This season when our big 3 shared the court, they had a - 5.9 rating (over 249.0 minutes).
https://valleyofthesuns.com/phoenix-suns-biggest-problem-obvious-nearly-impossible-fix-bradley-beal

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/what-is-the-suns-record-when-the-big-3-plays-together
They also had a 27-29 ( losing record) when the big 3 played together.

AI Overview

The Phoenix Suns' Big Three of Devin Booker, Kevin Durant, and Bradley Beal have ranked below average and had a -4.3 Net Rating when playing together.


And that's not even considering the overall redundancy, lack of spacing, lack of defense and clear identification of roles, etc. Yes, you make good points about removing Nurkic and Jones to try and mitigate the situation. But this is where they're at this season and it's still pretty bad. And absolutely arguably " aweful " when you consider multiple factors like the facts that we have the highest payroll in NBA history, traded away all of our assets over the next 7-8 yrs , have no flexibility or long term future direction.

And we are going to hemorrhage high value assets to other teams over the next 4-5 years just for the privilege of losing in embarassing fashion and falling significantly short of our stated goals for multiple seasons now. Under those considerations, yeah! I'd say our big 3 super team experiment has this far been fairly aweful man.

[Hitachi77]

I don’t think there’s a big difference between missing the play in, making the play in but losing a play in game, or making the playoffs and getting crushed round 1. All mean blow up.

I guess the worst case scenario is making the playoffs and being competitive round 1 but losing.

Making the playoffs and pulling off a round 1 upset would shock all of us so much that I don’t know what we’d say.

[RaisingArizona]

O'Neale is always bricking wide open 3s

[bwgood77]

Trade everyone except Bol, Dunn, Oso and Beal (mainly because we'd probably have to give up a pick or get a bad longer big contract instead), and get picks, prospects, and get us a bunch of athletic youth who can play defense, hit 3s and are fun to watch.

When Beal expires we can then have cap space and go after whatever pieces we need.

[SkyBill40]

I'm at the point where I don't think that trading Booker or Durant is going to fix the mess that Ishbia has created. Even with the potential haul we'd get from trading Booker and Durant (or anybody else), there's no telling what he'd do with the picks we received. Given his penchant for impatient moves and mind numbingly foolish ones at that, it's likely we'd be cemented to the bottom of the conference for another decade.

This team is so broken at this point there's little to no hope in sight anymore.

I had a lot of hope for a new owner who was willing to spend; now I'm missing the owner who everyone hated for being cheap and stupid. How did we go so utterly wrong so quickly? There should be a book written about this and while I do like to write, I'm afraid I don't have any idea where to start but with my head in my hands.

Sent from my SM-F936U using RealGM mobile app

[Sunsdeuce]

Trade everyone except Bol, Dunn, Oso and Beal (mainly because we'd probably have to give up a pick or get a bad longer big contract instead), and get picks, prospects, and get us a bunch of athletic youth who can play defense, hit 3s and are fun to watch.

When Beal expires we can then have cap space and go after whatever pieces we need.

It’s time. Book and KD have to go! This team needs a full reset and start from ground zero.

[Ghost of Kleine]

Trade everyone except Bol, Dunn, Oso and Beal (mainly because we'd probably have to give up a pick or get a bad longer big contract instead), and get picks, prospects, and get us a bunch of athletic youth who can play defense, hit 3s and are fun to watch.

When Beal expires we can then have cap space and go after whatever pieces we need.

Could it be that you're coming around to the idea of just blowing it up for a proper full rebuild?? From the very foundation up! ( As long as we get our picks back from Houston though)!! Especially our 25' 1st.

I also wonder if Brooklyn would take KD back for Johnson/ Claxton/ a 1st since they've been much more competitive than they expected?

[Ghost of Kleine]

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Anybody hungry for a nothingburger??

[Ghost of Kleine]

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[Ghost of Kleine]

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Not surprised that their bench outplayed ours without Beal on it. That just tends to happen when you take from one spot to fill another. Beeal should have played off the bench to boost their production, and Dunn should have started in a Booker/Allen/Dunn/KD/ Richards lineup. Dunn could of at least made a difference by playing strong POA defense seeing as currently our none of our starters do.