The One And Only Offseason Thread 4

[JMac1]

Regarding Bledsoe, I think he has leverage negotiating his new contract.
I think he doesn't want to play for the Suns, BUT he would make the "effort" to play for us if he receives $80M, the most that any team can give him. His camp is not even talking about $63/4 years with us because I think that he prefers a S&T to other team if he will not receive that extra money to be a Sun.

At the end of the day, there is not more leverage than his own desiree, and he for some reason don't like the city or the team enough over other options.
It is a free world.

Its a free world, but the NBA is a private entity, Bledsoe can cry all we wants he gets Gene Wilder!!

I think McD needs to call up OKC and start working them on a S&T Bledsoe for Westbrook.

Not going to happen, because no one want to pay Bledsoe the money he is seeking, if they (teams) wanted to, he would have received the offers. The money didn't "dry up," the money he wanted went to the players teams wanted to pay it to. He can kick and scream all he wants, you guys can make up ridiculous trades all you want, none of it is happening because he has no choice but to accept the best offer.

Ours is the best offer, period! That is why he is pissed. Dragging it out by not signing and whining about it is his agents negotiation tactic. That tactic is feeble and childish, it doesn't make us look bad, it makes him look weak and petty. Bledsoe will have to kiss ass to save face, because the Suns could care less if he wants to be here, he has no choice in the matter, just like Nick Batum and Eric Gordon and others who signed matched offer sheets and whined about it, they got over it.

Trading arguably your best players is dumb! The Suns are not new to the rodeo, they know how to handle this and they have done a fantastic job IMO. They have said nothing but positive comments about Eric and they have continued to ignore all of the nonsense rhetoric, good for them and us.

Offer sheet or 4yr 48 million is his choice.........He has until October the 1st!

I will see you guys then.

[paulpressey25]

Does he want to play there? My guess is no, but if it gives him $16 more million dollars?

The question is how much hardball are the Suns or Bledsoe playing here? If the Suns truly were at 4/$48 and Bledsoe wants 5/$80, the mid-point is that 4/$63 Hayward contract where Rich Paul and Bledsoe save face and the Suns prevent the situation from spiraling into a political mess that results in Bledsoe coming into camp way out of shape and the team/fans from turning against him.

I know some of you guys will say "He's restricted. Let him pound sand or take the QO". We get all that. In a perfect world, the NBA would have non-guaranteed contracts like the NFL and teams would be able to cut guys then who don't live up to their contracts. The problem is that approach doesn't recognize the realities of today's NBA, where non-all star players get huge guaranteed contracts all the time based on potential and the system itself.

And if you have a really sharp/mature player and agent working a deal like this, yes, he's going to likely make decisions that do not cause long-term damage. The problem is that you don't have that here with Bledsoe and Rich Paul. So the Suns have to decide how much damage to their player and fanbase they are willing to endure in order to save that extra $15 million in contract value they don't want to extend Bledsoe. (and I'm assuming Bledsoe would take that, because if he was only going to accept 5/$80, then yes, this is entirely on him)

Right now though Bledsoe and Paul are in a corner by virtue of the Hayward contract. The Suns can either help them out of it or endure the long-term damage that may be caused by keeping those two there.

[bwgood77]

Does he want to play there? My guess is no, but if it gives him $16 more million dollars?

The question is how much hardball are the Suns or Bledsoe playing here? If the Suns truly were at 4/$48 and Bledsoe wants 5/$80, the mid-point is that 4/$63 Hayward contract where Rich Paul and Bledsoe save face and the Suns prevent the situation from spiraling into a political mess that results in Bledsoe coming into camp way out of shape and the team/fans from turning against him.

I know some of you guys will say "He's restricted. Let him pound sand or take the QO". We get all that. In a perfect world, the NBA would have non-guaranteed contracts like the NFL and teams would be able to cut guys then who don't live up to their contracts. The problem is that approach doesn't recognize the realities of today's NBA, where non-all star players get huge guaranteed contracts all the time based on potential and the system itself.

And if you have a really sharp/mature player and agent working a deal like this, yes, he's going to likely make decisions that do not cause long-term damage. The problem is that you don't have that here with Bledsoe and Rich Paul. So the Suns have to decide how much damage to their player and fanbase they are willing to endure in order to save that extra $15 million in contract value they don't want to extend Bledsoe. (and I'm assuming Bledsoe would take that, because if he was only going to accept 5/$80, then yes, this is entirely on him)

Right now though Bledsoe and Paul are in a corner by virtue of the Hayward contract. The Suns can either help them out of it or endure the long-term damage that may be caused by keeping those two there.

Once a contract is signed for less than the guy wants, how much long term damage is usually done? What player gave a team headaches later? New Orleans maybe shouldn't have matched the Gordon deal because ultimately it wasn't worth it but you don't hear him complaining any more and he was far more negatively outspoken about the Pelicans and not wanting to play there. Bledsoe hasn't said a word. Just hearsay and rumors from who knows where?

The only guy that maybe had irreparable damage was Love not getting 5 years, but it's certainly not going to diminish his trade value. And even at the max dollar level, in two years, Bledsoe would be tradeable with the cap likely going up into the high 70s, unless he continues to be injury prone, which is risky no matter how much he signs for.

[mybloodisorange]

Between all the new guards we picked up, what little leverage Bledsoe had went out the window. I'm almost thinking it might be better just to keep the cap space the way EB's agent is trying to hardline. We got him for basically nothing anyway...

[NotTraxxe]

Bottom Line: There will be no Sign and Trade.

There is no one that wants to pay max ballpark money to Bledsoe at his level of risk (small body of work + injuries) AND give up decent assets. That's just the facts, ma'am. If he was a sure thing then we would have pulled it off already.

Most Suns fans don't think he is worth the max. Why would we expect him to suddenly be worth max and assets?

So we sit. We wait. He has a fair deal on the table. We will up a little but otherwise let him play for the QO. It's a game of chicken. We're in a Suburban. He's in an explorer but thinks he has an Apache.

He's starting to realize the truth though. Anger is to be expected. He's butthurt. We used the system to keep offers away from him. Then as the money in the league dried up so did his market. No one wanted to tie up money on something we could stretch for days at a crucial time; he blames us. He should. We played business on him and we will come up out on top or he will have to risk the QO out of spite.

[Sunsdeuce]

Bottom Line: There will be no Sign and Trade.

There is no one that wants to pay max ballpark money to Bledsoe at his level of risk (small body of work + injuries) AND give up decent assets. That's just the facts, ma'am. If he was a sure thing then we would have pulled it off already.

Most Suns fans don't think he is worth the max. Why would we expect him to suddenly be worth max and assets?

So we sit. We wait. He has a fair deal on the table. We will up a little but otherwise let him play for the QO. It's a game of chicken. We're in a Suburban. He's in an explorer but thinks he has an Apache.

He's starting to realize the truth though. Anger is to be expected. He's butthurt. We used the system to keep offers away from him. Then as the money in the league dried up so did his market. No one wanted to tie up money on something we could stretch for days at a crucial time; he blames us. He should. We played business on him and we will come up out on top or he will have to risk the QO out of spite.

Just a question. How can you say for sure that there will be no sign and trade?


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[NotTraxxe]

It's worth it to us to sign Bledsoe at the right price. And even if he hates us he can be traded for good assets at that price down the road when we look to tie up Dragic longterm.

Bledsoe at the Lowry deal would be a helluva a piece in a big deal down the road if he pans out.

We're willing to bet he we will not take the QO and the risk.

Better than a S&T and getting barely anything for him.

[jcsunsfan]

Bottom Line: There will be no Sign and Trade.

There is no one that wants to pay max ballpark money to Bledsoe at his level of risk (small body of work + injuries) AND give up decent assets. That's just the facts, ma'am. If he was a sure thing then we would have pulled it off already.

Most Suns fans don't think he is worth the max. Why would we expect him to suddenly be worth max and assets?

So we sit. We wait. He has a fair deal on the table. We will up a little but otherwise let him play for the QO. It's a game of chicken. We're in a Suburban. He's in an explorer but thinks he has an Apache.

He's starting to realize the truth though. Anger is to be expected. He's butthurt. We used the system to keep offers away from him. Then as the money in the league dried up so did his market. No one wanted to tie up money on something we could stretch for days at a crucial time; he blames us. He should. We played business on him and we will come up out on top or he will have to risk the QO out of spite.

Just a question. How can you say for sure that there will be no sign and trade?


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Because there is NO TEAM willing to pay him what he wants, which is necessary for a sign and trade to work out.

[aIvin adams]

Bottom Line: There will be no Sign and Trade.

There is no one that wants to pay max ballpark money to Bledsoe at his level of risk (small body of work + injuries) AND give up decent assets. That's just the facts, ma'am. If he was a sure thing then we would have pulled it off already.

Most Suns fans don't think he is worth the max. Why would we expect him to suddenly be worth max and assets?

So we sit. We wait. He has a fair deal on the table. We will up a little but otherwise let him play for the QO. It's a game of chicken. We're in a Suburban. He's in an explorer but thinks he has an Apache.

He's starting to realize the truth though. Anger is to be expected. He's butthurt. We used the system to keep offers away from him. Then as the money in the league dried up so did his market. No one wanted to tie up money on something we could stretch for days at a crucial time; he blames us. He should. We played business on him and we will come up out on top or he will have to risk the QO out of spite.

[Puff]

It's worth it to us to sign Bledsoe at the right price. And even if he hates us he can be traded for good assets at that price down the road when we look to tie up Dragic longterm.

Bledsoe at the Lowry deal would be a helluva a piece in a big deal down the road if he pans out.

We're willing to bet he we will not take the QO and the risk.

Better than a S&T and getting barely anything for him.

That makes good sense for our franchise but EB is fast becoming a player fans do not want in a Phoenix Suns uniform under any circumstance.

This has been a very unusual negotiation to say the least. I believe it has been common practice for the player looking for a max contract to either embrace his current team or voice his displeasure with his current environment and ask for a ticket out of town. Bledsoe's silence on this subject has been deafening.

Has there been any indication that he genuinely likes any of the current players, coaches or management? Does he like the fans or city of Phoenix? Would he like to live here and participate in community events? Why has he been so silent on these issues? He has been silent since he arrived from the Clippers, hasn't he?

Basically no one appears to know where he stands on many fronts other than he is demanding a maximum contract.

While that certainly is a huge part of his decision I do not know if I have ever seen a player with so little to say about his current team good or bad. It would seem as though it would be to his benefit if he did embrace the opportunity to play for this team long term. After all we are in the drivers seat at this point.

I understand that he is an asset that we cannot afford to lose for nothing but at some point we are going to have to move on.

On a side note Coro wrote today about the Morris brothers, Plumlee , Len, Goodwin and Tucker spending time on the practice court, in PHOENIX, since April to make themselves better for the upcoming season. That is good news . It would be even better if EB would be in attendance as well. That is what I hoped for after the season ended.

McDonough has his hands full.

[JDLAW]

It's worth it to us to sign Bledsoe at the right price. And even if he hates us he can be traded for good assets at that price down the road when we look to tie up Dragic longterm.

Bledsoe at the Lowry deal would be a helluva a piece in a big deal down the road if he pans out.

We're willing to bet he we will not take the QO and the risk.

Better than a S&T and getting barely anything for him.

That makes good sense for our franchise but EB is fast becoming a player fans do not want in a Phoenix Suns uniform under any circumstance.

This has been a very unusual negotiation to say the least. I believe it has been common practice for the player looking for a max contract to either embrace his current team or voice his displeasure with his current environment and ask for a ticket out of town. Bledsoe's silence on this subject has been deafening.

Has there been any indication that he genuinely likes any of the current players, coaches or management? Does he like the fans or city of Phoenix? Would he like to live here and participate in community events? Why has he been so silent on these issues? He has been silent since he arrived from the Clippers, hasn't he?

Basically no one appears to know where he stands on many fronts other than he is demanding a maximum contract.

While that certainly is a huge part of his decision I do not know if I have ever seen a player with so little to say about his current team good or bad. It would seem as though it would be to his benefit if he did embrace the opportunity to play for this team long term. After all we are in the drivers seat at this point.

I understand that he is an asset that we cannot afford to lose for nothing but at some point we are going to have to move on.

On a side note Coro wrote today about the Morris brothers, Plumlee , Len, Goodwin and Tucker spending time on the practice court, in PHOENIX, since April to make themselves better for the upcoming season. That is good news . It would be even better if EB would be in attendance as well. That is what I hoped for after the season ended.

McDonough has his hands full.

Some good comments, but I believe the fans will re-embrace him if he signs. There were a lot of signs that he genuinely liked his teammates and coaches.

[AtheJ415]

If you really think Bledoe's also looking to sandbag his next contract after this one by showing up out of shape and causing trouble then I don't know what to tell you. All of the teams in this league would remember that.

How the hell is our fan base enduring damage in all of this?

Does he want to play there? My guess is no, but if it gives him $16 more million dollars?

The question is how much hardball are the Suns or Bledsoe playing here? If the Suns truly were at 4/$48 and Bledsoe wants 5/$80, the mid-point is that 4/$63 Hayward contract where Rich Paul and Bledsoe save face and the Suns prevent the situation from spiraling into a political mess that results in Bledsoe coming into camp way out of shape and the team/fans from turning against him.

I know some of you guys will say "He's restricted. Let him pound sand or take the QO". We get all that. In a perfect world, the NBA would have non-guaranteed contracts like the NFL and teams would be able to cut guys then who don't live up to their contracts. The problem is that approach doesn't recognize the realities of today's NBA, where non-all star players get huge guaranteed contracts all the time based on potential and the system itself.

And if you have a really sharp/mature player and agent working a deal like this, yes, he's going to likely make decisions that do not cause long-term damage. The problem is that you don't have that here with Bledsoe and Rich Paul. So the Suns have to decide how much damage to their player and fanbase they are willing to endure in order to save that extra $15 million in contract value they don't want to extend Bledsoe. (and I'm assuming Bledsoe would take that, because if he was only going to accept 5/$80, then yes, this is entirely on him)

Right now though Bledsoe and Paul are in a corner by virtue of the Hayward contract. The Suns can either help them out of it or endure the long-term damage that may be caused by keeping those two there.

[AtheJ415]

You're minsinterpreting what the Suns are willing to pay given the market for a player and what the suns would be willing to pay as a cap. I have no doubt the Suns would be willing to match a 4/63 offer. The problem is the market doesn't dictate they have to, and since Phoenix is his highest offer, there's no reason to keep increasing it just because a player would like more. That's not how a team has ever been successful and sets up an insane precedent.

First, we would likely need two unprotected firsts, and if not unprotected, at least low protection like top 3.
.

This is where some in the Suns fanbase are incongruent. Unprotected number ones coming from 15 win teams like the Bucks are for packages involving players like Kevin Love. And if that's the case, the Suns should have no problem offering Bledsoe 4/$63. If he's good enough for a great trade package, he's worth at least 4/$63. I think you guys need to up your minds, because Kyle Lowry (this board's analog for Bledsoe's contract) in trade doesn't bring back what you guys are asking for as it relates to Bledsoe.

You do hold all the cards in the sense that Bledsoe goes nowhere next year unless the Suns agree to it. That said, we've seen this movie too many times before in Milwaukee where a FA or RFA has one good season and then holds the team hostage for a huge contract. In the end, the player gets bitter, stops working out and then if the dispute is settled, rushes back and gets injured because they didn't work out all summer while the contract mess took place.

I'm not a fan of a CBA that allows one year wonders to get paid big, but unfortunately that is the system.

[AtheJ415]

I believe Lowry brought back a top 3 protected pick from what was believed to be an awful Toronto team. Very easily could've been top 7 or so and was valued that way.

First, we would likely need two unprotected firsts, and if not unprotected, at least low protection like top 3.
.

This is where some in the Suns fanbase are incongruent. Unprotected number ones coming from 15 win teams like the Bucks are for packages involving players like Kevin Love. And if that's the case, the Suns should have no problem offering Bledsoe 4/$63. If he's good enough for a great trade package, he's worth at least 4/$63. I think you guys need to up your minds, because Kyle Lowry (this board's analog for Bledsoe's contract) in trade doesn't bring back what you guys are asking for as it relates to Bledsoe.

You do hold all the cards in the sense that Bledsoe goes nowhere next year unless the Suns agree to it. That said, we've seen this movie too many times before in Milwaukee where a FA or RFA has one good season and then holds the team hostage for a huge contract. In the end, the player gets bitter, stops working out and then if the dispute is settled, rushes back and gets injured because they didn't work out all summer while the contract mess took place.

I'm not a fan of a CBA that allows one year wonders to get paid big, but unfortunately that is the system.

[AtheJ415]

I'd keep Warren and move Markieff. Markieff is better, but imo Parker is a better 4 than 3. Keep the most talented 3 we have on the team in Warren.

It must be a Bledsoe/Warren/1st for Jabari Parker deal then

Except there are people out there that think Warren will be a better player than Parker. He was in the ACC, and even though he was a soph, he didn't play much his freshman year because they didn't realize he was so good. I wouldn't do that deal.

[JDLAW]

I'd keep Warren and move Markieff. Markieff is better, but imo Parker is a better 4 than 3. Keep the most talented 3 we have on the team in Warren.

It must be a Bledsoe/Warren/1st for Jabari Parker deal then

Except there are people out there that think Warren will be a better player than Parker. He was in the ACC, and even though he was a soph, he didn't play much his freshman year because they didn't realize he was so good. I wouldn't do that deal.

If the Suns were to trade with Milwaukee, it would have to be Giannis or Parker straight up for Bledsoe. Trading Bledsoe, Warren and a 1st for Parker is insanity.

[AtheJ415]

Yeah. The problem with dealing with a team that's bad is that the talent drops off quickly. You aren't going to find the depth to make multi-player moves. It would have to be draft picks and one of their top players to get what would be their top player in Bledsoe (Parker may pass him eventually but not next year).

I think you'd have to do the obnoxious reverse protection that Morey has worked into Rockets deals. So instead of particular year picks, we could say top 3 protected but cannot be worse than 13th in 2015, no protection but can't be worse than 14th in 2016. That way we're guaranteed to get lottery picks.

So reading the bucks forum. They think we want every asset possible in a sign and trade deal. We want as fans something of worth. It's as simple as that. We don't want the bucks leftovers. Knight, ersan, and Henson are players that arent exactly "assets." Those are players the bucks would love to dump on someone but other teams don't see value in them.

To make a fair deal, there has to be some picks involved.


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[AtheJ415]

Removing the top 5 protection is just worthless, particularly with Bledsoe. People need to stop with this suggestion. Unless the lottery system is going to change next year, while the Lakers will suck, they aren't close to bottom 5, particularly if Bledsoe is added. I'd rather have an additional future first.

Nash, Houston 1st, the top 5 protection removed from our 2015 pick. Let's get it on.

[JDLAW]

Yeah. The problem with dealing with a team that's bad is that the talent drops off quickly. You aren't going to find the depth to make multi-player moves. It would have to be draft picks and one of their top players to get what would be their top player in Bledsoe (Parker may pass him eventually but not next year).

I think you'd have to do the obnoxious reverse protection that Morey has worked into Rockets deals. So instead of particular year picks, we could say top 3 protected but cannot be worse than 13th in 2015, no protection but can't be worse than 14th in 2016. That way we're guaranteed to get lottery picks.

So reading the bucks forum. They think we want every asset possible in a sign and trade deal. We want as fans something of worth. It's as simple as that. We don't want the bucks leftovers. Knight, ersan, and Henson are players that arent exactly "assets." Those are players the bucks would love to dump on someone but other teams don't see value in them.

To make a fair deal, there has to be some picks involved.


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Interesting concept, but there are not going to be any S&Ts with the Bucks or likely any other team.

[AtheJ415]

We give up the 2 highest ceiling guys in that trade. I'm fine with Bledsoe for Sanders, but Knight would be our 3rd best PG next year and a RFA again. I'd rather keep Len and his potential as a rim protector over Knight.

I'm down to get Sanders/Knight/Pick for Bledsoe/Len/Filler

Im not as quick to throw Len out there quite yet, but i would go after Sanders. I would want at least Sanders/Henson/1st for Bledsoe/Randolph. Henson is a young big on his rookie contract still that we can use as trade bait to another team for someone else that we want. If Sanders can return to his former glory in the valley, having a shot blocking rim defending rebounding starting C locked in for $11M for the next 4 years would be perfectly fine in my book.


Thomas/Ennis
Dragic/Green/Goodwin
Tucker/Warren/Morris
Morris/Henson/Toliver
Sanders/Plumlee/Len