Offseason Thread 6: The Not So Mexican Stand-off Continues

[Saberestar]

Free agent forward Michael Beasley has reached agreement on a deal with Memphis, league sources tell Yahoo.

Memphis automatically out of the playoffs race.

[bwgood77]

Lucky or smart? There is no reason to offer more than we have to

It's crazy. 90% of the people here (if not more) thought 12 million a year was a reasonable offer 2 months ago. Now it seems like about half of the people here want to offer him more, which means Paul and Bledsoe's tactics have worked on them. Even JDLAW which surprised me.

I'm not saying I wouldn't go up at the last minute or if he sits down to negotiate, but why now? He's not going to save any more face today than he will in a week.

Not many poker players here willing to call a bluff. He will take guaranteed money in the end. He really can't afford not to with his injury risks. They are just hoping we cave. I respect the front office for not caving in for no reason. I think they are willing to pay him more, but he really needs to sit down with them.

[aIvin adams]

Lucky or smart? There is no reason to offer more than we have to

It's crazy. 90% of the people here (if not more) thought 12 million a year was a reasonable offer 2 months ago. Now it seems like about half of the people here want to offer him more, which means Paul and Bledsoe's tactics have worked on them.

nah.

those two things aren't mutually exclusive: A) 12M/yr for 4 years is a reasonable offer, and B) ppl want to offer him more.

A and B are compatible if you think that 12M/yr was a reasonable offer, you hope Bledsoe/RiP counter-offer, and you expect the Suns to offer him more.

basically it was a reasonable offer. we want a negotiation. if Bledsoe/RiP refuse to negotiate then I won't hold it against the Suns. in that case, oh well.... i think that would be nutty on Bledsoe's part, so I still don't expect he and RiP will stick to their nuclear option. but we'll see.

[Saberestar]

But enough of Bledsoe, how about real Suns players.

http://www.nba.com/suns/gallery/training-2014-15-suns

[aIvin adams]

But enough of Bledsoe, how about real Suns players.

http://www.nba.com/suns/gallery/training-2014-15-suns

gettin swoll

[DBoys]

What concerns me is him taking the QO and us not being able to trade him till Jan 1. I don't know if that is the rule, but it was mentioned a few pages ago with no refutal. If he is to be traded prior to the start of the season, does it have to be a sign and trade for something other than the QO ?

This looks like an 11th hour scenario unfolding.

I think the odds of any trade are super small.

If he is traded right now, it would have to be a S&T since he has no contract yet. In that case, it has to
1 be a deal for at least 3 seasons,
2 satisfy his contract demands,
3 satisfy the Suns' trade demands, and
3 the combination of "salary plus trade price" has to make sense to the other team.

Everyone getting what they want, within the next week? I'm skeptical.

[drewsprocket]

Look... there is little to no chance Bledsoap signs with us next yr after taking the QO. It is a statement he is making this yr. He walks plain and simple. This has been a pizzin contest from day one.

What concerns me is him taking the QO and us not being able to trade him till Jan 1. I don't know if that is the rule, but it was mentioned a few pages ago with no refutal. If he is to be traded prior to the start of the season, does it have to be a sign and trade for something other than the QO ?

This looks like an 11th hour scenario unfolding.

He can be traded but he can also veto any trade

The biggest gift he was given by the Suns was belief that he was worth giving a starting job alongside a proven PG in Dragic and then handed that role. I am doubtful that that faith still exists within our organization due to Bledsoe's reactive and noncollaborative stance in terms of accepting a contract or making efforts to come to the table. If he takes that QO, I think the writing is on the wall and the Suns' addition Zoran & IT demonstrates that other players are ready to take on long term committments with being a part of the team and organization. In this event, EB will want to go somewhere else where he can shine.

I just don't see him playing on a one year deal here. People argue that he'll be a professional...we'll see. If he's any bit of a drag on the team I think he'll be sent home and forced to accept any trade we set up.

[DBoys]

"I think he'll be sent home and forced to accept any trade we set up."

"Forced"? What is THAT supposed to mean? Are they going to hold a gun to his head, or take his family hostage or something?

If he signs a QO (which he has every right to do, and can't be prevented from doing), he gets no-trade control for the entire duration of the year, and he can't be traded anywhere (even with his permission) for 3 months from the date he signs the QO.

[JDLAW]

Lucky or smart? There is no reason to offer more than we have to

It's crazy. 90% of the people here (if not more) thought 12 million a year was a reasonable offer 2 months ago. Now it seems like about half of the people here want to offer him more, which means Paul and Bledsoe's tactics have worked on them. Even JDLAW which surprised me.

I'm not saying I wouldn't go up at the last minute or if he sits down to negotiate, but why now? He's not going to save any more face today than he will in a week.

Not many poker players here willing to call a bluff. He will take guaranteed money in the end. He really can't afford not to with his injury risks. They are just hoping we cave. I respect the front office for not caving in for no reason. I think they are willing to pay him more, but he really needs to sit down with them.

Sorry, I have been among the most critical of the Rich Paul representation of Bledsoe. His tactics have not worked on me at all. I think he's a terrible agent and not worthy of his certification from the league.

Going all the way back to the start of, or before free agency, I have always said the Suns should pay Bledsoe up to the 4/$64 mini-max, if they need to, in order to keep him because I think he brings enough to the table for this team to warrant it. Most of the posters including you turned this into a contest of Dragic versus Bledsoe and filled pages about who was better and who had to go. I have always thought there was room for both and to sign the rest of the key players.

My suggestion was make such an offer for 48 hrs and if he declines and asks for 5 and $80+, he is sending a message that his agent and he are delusional and are trying to get the Suns to pay a penalty for his being here. After 48 hours, pull the offer and let him play for the QO. If he takes it fine and the Suns have a player they were willing to pay that amount anyway. If they decline, they will be absolutely vilified in the league. This is a very hardball tactic I have used in the past to settle a lawsuit when it became necessary to wake the other side out of their fantasyland stupor.

[NavLDO]

Because if he signed an offer, it would have tied up money that those teams could use for their roster. Plus it was pretty well known that it was a high possibility we would match that offer.

The teams that really wanted him, don't have the cap room this year to sign him, and for some reason, those teams think our old management is in charge, and we would take bad contracts for Eric.

But enough of Bledsoe, how about real Suns players.

So why did Hayward and Parsons get offers?

The short answer is that in the NBA point guard and power forward are the most populated positions in the league. There are few teams that need a point guard and there were almost none who needed a point guard that had the cap space to make an offer that Bledsoe's representatives wanted.

Most teams have competent power forwards who are young and competent.

Young, talented, and accomplished small forwards like Hayward and Parsons are relatively rare and will sought after.

And that's the issue. It's a convergence of circumstances that are setting EBs worth. Position, Early FA drama with LeBron, Questions of health, Having to give up assets AND pay EB, and lack of minutes as a starter (along with the fact that those minutes were in a system tailor-made for his success).

What he has going for him is defensive prowess and he's young--that's it, really.

Were depth at PG throughout the league on the level of SG, then he may have gotten an offer.
Had he started/stayed healthy for the whole year, then he may gotten an offer.
Had the LeBron saga ended much sooner, then he may have gotten an offer.

Bledsoe, based on pure skill and where he ranks talent-wise within his position, is probably worth a Max. And I wouldn't fault a team for paying him the Max. But I also understand perfectly why the Suns aren't offering the Max.

If in the end, the Suns cave and give him the Max, then so be it and I'll pray he stays healthy. Because as others have noted, the salary cap will be going up significantly, and 4 years from now, he would probably be considered to be on a fair contract. I wouldn't consider it a poor move, necessarily. But man, if they give him the Max and he turns into an Eric Gordon situation, we'll be mired in mediocrity for 5 years, then Suns fans far and wide will talk about how stupid a decision it was. Not to mention, remember, GMs come and go, and if I were McDonough, I'd be worried about job security a little bit, so I certainly don't blame the FO if they hold firm and EB takes the QO.

[bwgood77]

Lucky or smart? There is no reason to offer more than we have to

It's crazy. 90% of the people here (if not more) thought 12 million a year was a reasonable offer 2 months ago. Now it seems like about half of the people here want to offer him more, which means Paul and Bledsoe's tactics have worked on them. Even JDLAW which surprised me.

I'm not saying I wouldn't go up at the last minute or if he sits down to negotiate, but why now? He's not going to save any more face today than he will in a week.

Not many poker players here willing to call a bluff. He will take guaranteed money in the end. He really can't afford not to with his injury risks. They are just hoping we cave. I respect the front office for not caving in for no reason. I think they are willing to pay him more, but he really needs to sit down with them.

Sorry, I have been among the most critical of the Rich Paul representation of Bledsoe. His tactics have not worked on me at all. I think he's a terrible agent and not worthy of his certification from the league.

Going all the way back to the start of, or before free agency, I have always said the Suns should pay Bledsoe up to the 4/$64 mini-max, if they need to, in order to keep him because I think he brings enough to the table for this team to warrant it. Most of the posters including you turned this into a contest of Dragic versus Bledsoe and filled pages about who was better and who had to go. I have always thought there was room for both and to sign the rest of the key players.

My suggestion was make such an offer for 48 hrs and if he declines and asks for 5 and $80+, he is sending a message that his agent and he are delusional and are trying to get the Suns to pay a penalty for his being here. After 48 hours, pull the offer and let him play for the QO. If he takes it fine and the Suns have a player they were willing to pay that amount anyway. If they decline, they will be absolutely vilified in the league. This is a very hardball tactic I have used in the past to settle a lawsuit when it became necessary to wake the other side out of their fantasyland stupor.

I didn't realize you were wanting to pay him the 4/64 mini max from the beginning. I thought you had said they shouldn't bid against themselves, but perhaps that was someone else.

I saw your recent proposal but what's the rush on doing that? Why not wait until September 30th and offer him 4/64 and let him take that or the QO by the next day? Why play games?

I've never advocated getting rid of Bledsoe and keeping Dragic. I have mentioned if I had to keep one or the other, I'd definitely prefer Dragic for several reasons.

Ultimately I'd like to keep both. Early in the process, like early July, I was worried the team might not want to pay both of them a combined $30 million a year, but at that point I wasn't aware of the tv contract and how much the cap will be by then, so I don't think they'd be opposed to it knowing that. I definitely want them both to remain Suns and I think they will.

I still don't feel they should just bid against themselves though. Also, if they are willing to pay 4/64, then they probably are not worried about injuries too much, so why not go 5/80 and lock him in at that price for longer? If I was going to go up to 4/64 I see no reason not to go do 5/80, especially with the cap increasing every year.

If they are worried about injuries, maybe do a 4/64, with team option after year 3. That is the same they have already offered for the first three years (about 48) and if he gets injured they are not on the hook for more money.

[JDLAW]

It's crazy. 90% of the people here (if not more) thought 12 million a year was a reasonable offer 2 months ago. Now it seems like about half of the people here want to offer him more, which means Paul and Bledsoe's tactics have worked on them. Even JDLAW which surprised me.

I'm not saying I wouldn't go up at the last minute or if he sits down to negotiate, but why now? He's not going to save any more face today than he will in a week.

Not many poker players here willing to call a bluff. He will take guaranteed money in the end. He really can't afford not to with his injury risks. They are just hoping we cave. I respect the front office for not caving in for no reason. I think they are willing to pay him more, but he really needs to sit down with them.

Sorry, I have been among the most critical of the Rich Paul representation of Bledsoe. His tactics have not worked on me at all. I think he's a terrible agent and not worthy of his certification from the league.

Going all the way back to the start of, or before free agency, I have always said the Suns should pay Bledsoe up to the 4/$64 mini-max, if they need to, in order to keep him because I think he brings enough to the table for this team to warrant it. Most of the posters including you turned this into a contest of Dragic versus Bledsoe and filled pages about who was better and who had to go. I have always thought there was room for both and to sign the rest of the key players.

My suggestion was make such an offer for 48 hrs and if he declines and asks for 5 and $80+, he is sending a message that his agent and he are delusional and are trying to get the Suns to pay a penalty for his being here. After 48 hours, pull the offer and let him play for the QO. If he takes it fine and the Suns have a player they were willing to pay that amount anyway. If they decline, they will be absolutely vilified in the league. This is a very hardball tactic I have used in the past to settle a lawsuit when it became necessary to wake the other side out of their fantasyland stupor.

I didn't realize you were wanting to pay him the 4/64 mini max from the beginning. I thought you had said they shouldn't bid against themselves, but perhaps that was someone else.

I saw your recent proposal but what's the rush on doing that? Why not wait until September 30th and offer him 4/64 and let him take that or the QO by the next day? Why play games?

I've never advocated getting rid of Bledsoe and keeping Dragic. I have mentioned if I had to keep one or the other, I'd definitely prefer Dragic for several reasons.

Ultimately I'd like to keep both. Early in the process, like early July, I was worried the team might not want to pay both of them a combined $30 million a year, but at that point I wasn't aware of the tv contract and how much the cap will be by then, so I don't think they'd be opposed to it knowing that. I definitely want them both to remain Suns and I think they will.

I still don't feel they should just bid against themselves though. Also, if they are willing to pay 4/64, then they probably are not worried about injuries too much, so why not go 5/80 and lock him in at that price for longer? If I was going to go up to 4/64 I see no reason not to go do 5/80, especially with the cap increasing every year.

If they are worried about injuries, maybe do a 4/64, with team option after year 3. That is the same they have already offered for the first three years (about 48) and if he gets injured they are not on the hook for more money.

I do it earlier because I want them to stew in their mismanagement of this if they foul it up. They will have to face the public scrutiny of having got the max he could have gotten in the market and then having to decide to turn it down. If they turn it down and all offers come off the table, they will either have to grovel back for something more than the QO at which point you can put the $12M/yr back on the table or not. It is a psychological hurdle to turn down the most you could have gotten for greed or ego and such a move would be recognized.

[Christine-In-AZ]

Wish he'd take a page out of Goran Dragic's playbook. Guy got traded, comes back for less money because he loves it here and he recognizes what Phoenix means to him in his life, and then goes out there and dominates, and then says he'll opt out and quickly resign.

THAT'S the type of dedication and love I want from players playing in Phoenix. I don't want that mercenary, soulless, boring, predictable, manufactured, inmates-run-the-asylum garbage with cancerous, primadonna bull I see with teams and players all around the league. Sorry if that doesn't fit your vision.

I wonder how your example of Goran Dragic strategy looks to a Rocket fan?

When this Bledsoe FA began he had been a member of the Phoenix Suns less than a year, far less time than Goran was a Rocket. Why can't you at least accept the possibility that Eric might want to go where he feels the strongest desire to play, ala Goran Dragic in July '12? That Eric isn't trying to "run from", that he might be trying to "run to" ?

Something tells me had the Rockets thrown big dollars at Goran...promised him a starting role, Goran Dragic would be a Rocket right now and his love to play in Phoenix would have to wait.

Gogi didn't have to face the Rockets using the RFA rules against him, but probably just as Bledsoe stated calmly, Dragic would probably have echoed- "The Rockets are using the restricted free agency rules against me, but I understand that"

Look. I am not the biggest Bledsoe fan. There are red flags with his obvious knee issues and even moreso in the way he plays...dangerous. I don't think he deserves anything close to what his agent isn't asking for. I'm pretty much in the "4/48 or die" club, though I'd budge to a small bump and or a shorter slightly sweeter deal. If he chooses to take the QO, it won't make me happy, but I also don't think it's nearly as "nuclear" as so many are feeling. Bledsoe in effect did it (rolled the dice) last year when he didn't sign an extension with the Suns. It could have...and nearly did blow up in his face (see:knee). What bugs me is all this assumption or out n' out fabrication about Bledsoe's mind set. I guess if you are one of those that accepts word from one of our "insiders" that Bledsoe is "butthurt"..."butthurt"...and did I say "butthurt"? (really need to find a new word) then I guess? You have some proof that Bledsoe is pissed. I'm not accepting that, especially since the insider is only getting info from one or two press connections, not the FO itself. Follow his tracks from the beginning in '09. Maybe something changed when the Lebron stuff started flying in early July, but the 3 year sudden return of inside info after a total hiatus as insider, didn't come with a status update. Many and large are my "grains of salt".

Yes! Of course speculation is part of a vibrant forum such as this...and certainly some counter-speculation or strong push back. And I will admit I do gravitate to the role as contrarian more often than not...a want to play devil's advocate.

I'm ready to get blasted once again by one of the best. I mean that with respect BH. Your Suns passion is unmatched.

Dragic and his agent acted nowhere near the way Bledsoe and his agent have. I'm not going off insiders. I can tell. Been around the sports block a few times to develop intuitions and assessments of athletes.

Listen, if Bledsoe wants to go somewhere else, hey, that's fine. His camp should be acting in an amicable fashion to make that happen instead of acting the way they are.

I've no argument with your reply

[lilfishi22]

I've never been against a 64/4 offer if it came down to it since I do think he's worth it but I saw no point in coming out the gate with the mini-max offer. The 48/4 offer is a fair one which a number of unnamed GM's have agreed with. We came out with a fair offer with multiple offers to sit down and negotiate up but to no avail.

[SideSwipe]

If Bledsoe is worth more than 4/48 then why nobody besides the Suns offer him anything?

Because if he signed an offer, it would have tied up money that those teams could use for their roster. Plus it was pretty well known that it was a high possibility we would match that offer.

The teams that really wanted him, don't have the cap room this year to sign him, and for some reason, those teams think our old management is in charge, and we would take bad contracts for Eric.

But enough of Bledsoe, how about real Suns players.

So why did Hayward and Parsons get offers?

Because their agents were able to get a team to bite. That's an agents job. They don't do that, they have failed in their entire purpose during the RFA market. They have really failed if your name gets dragged through the mud while its happening.

They failed two-fold. First they did not establish enough credibility in the price they are asking for, and secondly they did not protect their players to help assure future value, even if a deal was not to be worked out this summer.

[matt131]

@WojYahooNBA: Phoenix, Eric Bledsoe have made progress on a new contract in past 48-72 hours, sources tell Yahoo. No deal yet, but significant momentum.

[Christine-In-AZ]

Sorry, I have been among the most critical of the Rich Paul representation of Bledsoe. His tactics have not worked on me at all. I think he's a terrible agent and not worthy of his certification from the league.

Going all the way back to the start of, or before free agency, I have always said the Suns should pay Bledsoe up to the 4/$64 mini-max, if they need to, in order to keep him because I think he brings enough to the table for this team to warrant it. Most of the posters including you turned this into a contest of Dragic versus Bledsoe and filled pages about who was better and who had to go. I have always thought there was room for both and to sign the rest of the key players.

My suggestion was make such an offer for 48 hrs and if he declines and asks for 5 and $80+, he is sending a message that his agent and he are delusional and are trying to get the Suns to pay a penalty for his being here. After 48 hours, pull the offer and let him play for the QO. If he takes it fine and the Suns have a player they were willing to pay that amount anyway. If they decline, they will be absolutely vilified in the league. This is a very hardball tactic I have used in the past to settle a lawsuit when it became necessary to wake the other side out of their fantasyland stupor.

Is your idea more about putting Klutch in a corner and force them to take 4/64 out of fear of league embarrassment? Or is it more about exposing Klutch as being disingenuous? Both?

Neither one sounds like a very happy ending (in the long run) for the Suns or Bledsoe. I'm probably too naive...way too kumbaya hopeful to have ever been a lawyer. That's for sure.

If Paul/Termini took the 4/64 wouldn't the Suns FO face a lot of wrath (vilification) from the other FOs as a result. Hey Lon! Hey Ryan! Guys! They held your feet to the fire all summer. Everyone was convinced you wouldn't give in. Then in the last week Klutch squeezed 16 million dollars out of you! Now RFA is never going to be the same because of this precedent. Thanks Suns.

Maybe I'm missing the jist..gist of your plan? Entirely probable.

[Christine-In-AZ]

@WojYahooNBA: Phoenix, Eric Bledsoe have made progress on a new contract in past 48-72 hours, sources tell Yahoo. No deal yet, but significant momentum.

Someone! Quick with the Ron Paul "it's happening" meme

[Jdiddy701]

Back on the Bledsoe Bandwagon


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

[ShawnBronald]

@WojYahooNBA: Phoenix, Eric Bledsoe have made progress on a new contract in past 48-72 hours, sources tell Yahoo. No deal yet, but significant momentum.

Someone! Quick with the Ron Paul "it's happening" meme