Trade & FA Ideas & Discussion #5: A Serving of Irving?

[NavLDO]

There's no way to determine that right now; absolute zero.

It's just like, my opinion man.

Let's say we trade for Kyrie, and it's our 2018 Top 5 protected pick, Bledsoe, and Chriss, for argument sake (if there is news to the otherwise, sorry, I don't have time to keep up with every development).

Jackson comes out next year and has a great rookie season, as does Reed; Warren, Booker, Bender, and Ulis progress, and we make it to the 7th/8th seed, compete hard, then sign a good, young FA (pick one)...or heck, we don't need to because everyone surprises...maybe Bender and Sauce combine to form a stud duo at the 5, and Warren, with his new found bulk/height (he's what, almost 6'10", 245??), has a nice 16/7 year at PF, and Jackson just goes nuts at SF, Booker puts up a 22/5/4 year, and Kyrie has one of his best years. Why wouldn't he consider staying? Boom, we're on our way to our rebuild now, and attracting talent.

On the other hand, everything remains about status quo. We have another poor year and Irving does ok. Irving has a year left on his deal. We draft a PG in late the Lottery or 20s, and trade Irving to an up-and-coming contender for a lotto pick and a salary, no harm/ no foul. We still have Warren, Booker, Bender, Jackson, Ulis, Sauce, Reed, Peters, Miami's pick, and whoever we can trade Kyrie for, a pick or player. All is not lost.

I'd rather try, than go through another year, with our brightest hope for the future being our next year's draft pick; it certainly doesn't slow us down much, if any.

Any of that could happen obviously, but to me, when a guy comes out and gives a list of 4 teams he wants to play for and we're not on it, it's waaaaaay more likely that he plays out his contract and bolts. It's also just the way the league is going right now. Guys want to play where they want to play, and we're just sadly not at the point where we're a huge draw IMO.

I'll be more than happy if I'm wrong in this case and we do trade for him, but I have my doubts.

Also not too big on trading him to someone else next year, because we'll be in the position the Cavs are in right now with zero leverage and I think it will probably be hard to get back equal/greater value than what we paid.

I think Suns have a very good chance of displacing Clippers in the Pacific Division as 2nd place from Warriors IF they can get Irving and another impact FA in the next 2 seasons. IMO that should be very appealing for Irving.
Then when Warriors decline in 2-3 seasons time, Suns have a strong chance to push for first.
The KEY is beating Lakers to impact FA players, if Suns don't go for Star FAs, we all know Lakers will. So the way I look at it... getting a star like Irving is the Suns way of ensuring they stay ahead of Lakers and Kings and bark at the heels of Clippers for that 2nd spot in the Pacific.

Cousins would definitely take a look at the Suns if the Suns are up and coming with a young core ready to push for playoffs.

Nope--just ask AtheJ415. Vegas has the Suns as the 2nd worst team, and that's with Bledsoe. Once we trade Bledsoe for 'air', we have a Rod Stewart "Forever Young" forever-20YO, and using that theory 34YO C you is now terrible at defense, and every other team in the league is 5-7 older younger than us. Oh, and age counts for more than experience. So we shouldn't even start our 20YO SG, we should probably start Davon Reed, since he's 22YO,thus having a 2-years edge over Booker.

So with all that, we don't have an ice cube's chance in hell to get a Playoff spot...probably not for another 5-7 years.
Hopefully, I got that right, Athe J415...did I summarize that about right?

Oh, and I forgot...even if we keep Bledsoe, he doesn't count towards our 'core' anyway--quoted exactly from AtheJ, and somehow, it was ok to list Cousins, as I clearly did, as 'about to be 27', meaning he is still currently 26, but as you will see, it fits making his point, then that's allowed to stay, but gosh darnit, Booker turning 21 on Oct 30 is not the same as Boogi turning 27in a coupleof weeks...I mean, that's whole 2.5 months of offseason...but whatever...

"You do realize that 24 is 5 years older than 19, 4 older than 20. 27 is 7 years older than 20. Booker also isn't 21."

He's saying that AD is 5 years older than Bender, 4 years older than Booker (though the rest of the reasoned NBA fan-base will see during the season, when/if they were to ever compare, that would be 24 to 21, but whatever), and that Boogie is 7 years older than Booker. No mention of having a 27YO Bledsoe in our midst, anywhere...or a potential 25YO Irving. So, you see how they are 5-7 years older than us.

Point being, we are 5-7 years from competing, I guess.

[ImNotMcDiSwear]

Am I to understand that top 5 picks aren't valuable because Alex Len didn't turn out so well?

Do #27 picks explode in value over time because Gobert worked out? #16 picks because of Giannis? What are we even talking about?

[King4Day]

Something that hasn't been discussed is, if we don't land Irving, McD will have to talk with Bledsoe and reaffirm his commitment with him and that he's wanted on this team.
He'd probably just tell him there were only small talks but nothing serious.

On the flip side, I wonder if he already talked to EB and told him there's a chance this can happen.

[lilfishi22]

Am I to understand that top 5 picks aren't valuable because Alex Len didn't turn out so well?

Do #27 picks explode in value over time because Gobert worked out? #16 picks because of Giannis? What are we even talking about?

The understanding is that they have value but one shouldn't overvalue them.

A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush

[King4Day]

Today and tomorrow will be a big day with regards to any Irving trade. Much as I want something exciting to happen, if it doesn't in the next 24-48 hours, then it's probably a safe bet that Jackson is safe.

[Bjorpa]

On the flip side, I wonder if he already talked to EB and told him there's a chance this can happen.

One would hope so. Hope they've learned from past mistakes.

[Waylay13]

Today and tomorrow will be a big day with regards to any Irving trade. Much as I want something exciting to happen, if it doesn't in the next 24-48 hours, then it's probably a safe bet that Jackson is safe.

With Irving stating that he wont commit it a trade if it does happen shouldnt be anything more than Kyrie for Bledsoe and maybe a second rounder.

[DRK]

Am I to understand that top 5 picks aren't valuable because Alex Len didn't turn out so well?

Do #27 picks explode in value over time because Gobert worked out? #16 picks because of Giannis? What are we even talking about?

You pretty much proved my point there. The draft is a crapshoot. Tank-advocatists hedge their entire future on draft picks that may never pan out. You can hit big on a top 5 pick, or you may not. You may hit big on a late first rounder, who knows?

Im not willing to pass up the opportunity to acquire Kyrie by drafting that Top 5 pick superstar that may never happen. Who knows if Bender or Chriss pan out? People are saying the same things about Bender that we were saying about Len 3 years ago. Lets not let the obsession and addiction to a "full blown youth movement" blind us from the roses in front of us, which is an opportunity to trade for a Superstar player while still keeping a huge chunk of our young assets

[charley barkles]

Something that hasn't been discussed is, if we don't land Irving, McD will have to talk with Bledsoe and reaffirm his commitment with him and that he's wanted on this team.
He'd probably just tell him there were only small talks but nothing serious.

On the flip side, I wonder if he already talked to EB and told him there's a chance this can happen.

My guess is that McD has talked to Bledsoe. He's probably said we want him here and see him as a big part of the organization and a leader on the team, but that he's also older than our "timeline." With that, they aren't just going to dump him, but if an opportunity comes up to pair him with LeBron or another contending team, we'd consider it for his sake.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

[jredsaz]

That is unbelievably incorrect, and also Sarver hasn't been cheap in about a decade. It's one of the biggest misnomer's in the NBA. He let Amare go, and then that very same offseason spent as much on Hakim Warrick, Hedo Turkoglu, etc.. He also sold draft picks (Rondo, Deng) only to spend even more on Banks. His issue has not been being cheap--it has been choosing to spend the money on the wrong players.

Also, Gilbert would not have won us a title, let alone multiple ones, unless he could have somehow prevented (1) Tim Donaghy rigging a game, and (2) the Robert Horry hip check and subsequent suspensions. Those are the only teams that had a real shot at winning one in Sarver's tenure, and I fail to see how ownership would have fixed that.

A better owner would have offered Joe Johnson the $55 million and if he didn't, would have matched the Hawks offer instead of trading him away. That probably gets us one if not more rings.

Sent from my SM-N920V using RealGM mobile app

that's possible; but JJ made it clear that he didn't want to resign here as the fourth wheel.

Also, who knows how a (frustrated) JJ would fare compared to both Boris & Raja Bell.

You pay the man top dollar and make him stay. We could have had the first big four and a ring.

Sent from my SM-N920V using RealGM mobile app

[ImNotMcDiSwear]

Am I to understand that top 5 picks aren't valuable because Alex Len didn't turn out so well?

Do #27 picks explode in value over time because Gobert worked out? #16 picks because of Giannis? What are we even talking about?

You pretty much proved my point there. The draft is a crapshoot. Tank-advocatists hedge their entire future on draft picks that may never pan out. You can hit big on a top 5 pick, or you may not. You may hit big on a late first rounder, who knows?

Im not willing to pass up the opportunity to acquire Kyrie by drafting that Top 5 pick superstar that may never happen. Who knows if Bender or Chriss pan out? People are saying the same things about Bender that we were saying about Len 3 years ago. Lets not let the obsession and addiction to a "full blown youth movement" blind us from the roses in front of us, which is an opportunity to trade for a Superstar player while still keeping a huge chunk of our young assets

Superstar. I mean... perhaps the best thing about a Kyrie trade is that he probably wouldn't help us win games. Best of both worlds?

One scenario I've considered - if we deal TJ, perhaps we preserve enough space to sign JaMychal Green to a reasonable deal. That could balance things out a bit.

I'm neutral on Kyrie. I'm simply not giving up a top pick for him, and at this point, I wouldn't trade Bender, either. I strongly prefer not to trade TJ, too. If this means we can't get a deal done, that's just fine. As I've said, if the Cavs want Bledsoe, we should be perfectly content to make this a three team deal and receive someone other than Kyrie.

If Kyrie is so awesome, where are the better offers?

[jredsaz]

Needs to be at least top 5. All of Doncic, Porter, Ayton, Bagley, and Bamba imo are more valuable than Jackson. There also isn't a wide variation between those 5 in value imo (except maybe Bagley or Doncic depending on who you ask). Thus, top 3 doesn't make sense to me. Top 5 makes a lot of sense, but I'd do top 10. At the end of the day Bledsoe is already nearly as good as Kyrie, happens to be BFF with their star player, and we are probably taking salary back also. If we are also trading Warren or Chriss, that is overkill. Kyrie refuses to agree to re-sign, and I feel like we are bidding against ourselves and a horrible Dragic + Winslow or Aldridge + something package.

We will see how many of those players end up as better prospects than Jackson. Giles was #1 and Jackson was #2 at this time last year. The #20 and #4 picks in the draft.

Sent from my SM-N920V using RealGM mobile app

Well obviously we will see. It's easy to say that after the fact, but the only reason Giles fell was due to rampant injuries and a poor showing post-injury. It isn't like people were proven wrong on Giles. He had serious injuries that hampered him and destroyed his stock. Also, DX had Fultz 1 all of last year.

Point being, you can only make decisions based on information at the time. Doncic is considered the best European prospect ever by many. Porter is considered a franchise cornerstone (as is Jackson). Bagley is considered a generational talent. Ayton is a 2 way 7 footer who has the tools to be a plus player on offense and defense, and Bamba is a great athlete with Gobert-esque length and an improving jumper. It isn't a crazy statement at all to say that all of those guys may have more value than Jackson today.

But that's the point. It's all projections. Irving is a former #1 pick and a top 15 player in the NBA right now with room to improve. Bagley and Porter are two kids I wouldn't want to trade for Irving. The rest would not prevent me from making a deal.

Sent from my SM-N920V using RealGM mobile app

[jredsaz]

The opportunity cost of Irving is Bledsoe/Warren/Miami pick.

For argument sake, let's say we could move Bledsoe for a younger PG with potential on a rookie deal.
Let's also say that the Miami pick is late lotto - #12

Instead of Irving we could have:

Ulis/Bledsoe replacement
Booker/
Jackson/Warren
Bender/Chriss
2018 top 5 pick (us)/2018 end of lotto pick (Miami)

So basically we "double up" with youth talent at every position EXCEPT SG where Booker is a sure thing.

The 2018 draft is loaded with true centers. We can take our best shot at two of them.

And we keep Warren.

And we add another young PG.

So basically going into the summer of 2018 we will have doubled up on high quality rookies with potential at every position, Warren will be our only rotation player not on a rookie deal, and we will have cap room.

Isn't that a better situation?

Only half of our youth has to pan out for it to work.

Ulis will be a backup at worst
Booker is a stud
I'm high on both Jackson and Chriss
One of Bender and Chriss will live up to expectation
We have two more shots at a center in the 2018 draft

It's a controlled bet. Kinda like getting two chances to win at roulette and only risking one hand.

What about the opportunity cost of not getting Irving?

Sent from my SM-N920V using RealGM mobile app

[ImNotMcDiSwear]

I'm going to add one more point that I think is critical. If we're going to win a championship with this crew, Irving will not be the best player on this team. It would have to be Jackson. If Jackson isn't great, the next best chance we'll have of acquiring elite talent will be the 2018 draft. Irving simply will not be that guy. So I don't think this matters all that much... except to say that we really should not be dealing ourselves down or out of the 2018 draft.

[RaisingArizona]

Bledsoe could bolt in 2 years as well.

What assets are the Suns giving up in this scenario?

I see your point. But my point is that there's risk in staying the course and having Bledsoe get hurt or walk. I mean, who knows? We are all just protecting what we think might happen. Kyrie might stay. Kyrie might bolt. We will have to roll the dice a time or two to build a contender, imo.

[Stillwater]

Suns fans: Here is a Cavs fan take on this:
Even by giving up Bledsoe and Jackson , the Suns win the trade. The Cavs get an uproven high upside rookie and an pg that can hardly stay healthy for a a proven allstar with the best handles in the league and some Suns fans are saying that isn't worth more to you than an unproven high ceiling athlete? The timeline argument holds some weight , but not if the org is committed to Irving once they sign him. Cleveland has not been committed to him since Lebron came back,hence the trade request. So aside from the argument that he might leave, using the rational that since he won't commit to signing an extension now as opposed to after opting out in 2019 to get paid more is not sensible. He stands to lose 15Mil if he signs an extension in the next year.(provided he makes allnba teams which he should) It means nothing really in this trade proposal.. Also , I think the back court of Irving Booker would be hands down the best in the league, and the odds of Irving not staying in Phoenix would be slim to none.

[Preacherpj]

Today and tomorrow will be a big day with regards to any Irving trade. Much as I want something exciting to happen, if it doesn't in the next 24-48 hours, then it's probably a safe bet that Jackson is safe.

With Irving stating that he wont commit it a trade if it does happen shouldnt be anything more than Kyrie for Bledsoe and maybe a second rounder.

Why in the world would Cleveland do that? Kyrie is better and younger than Bledsoe.

If all it took was Bledsoe and maybe a second rounder Sarver would have driven Bledsoe personally to Cleveland and dropped him off.

[ImNotMcDiSwear]

Suns fans: Here is a Cavs fan take on this:
Even by giving up Bledsoe and Jackson , the Suns win the trade. The Cavs get an uproven high upside rookie and an pg that can hardly stay healthy for a a proven allstar with the best handles in the league and some Suns fans are saying that isn't worth more to you than an unproven high ceiling athlete? The timeline argument holds some weight , but not if the org is committed to Irving once they sign him. Cleveland has not been committed to him since Lebron came back,hence the trade request. So aside from the argument that he might leave, using the rational that since he won't commit to signing an extension now as opposed to after opting out in 2019 to get paid more is not sensible. He stands to lose 15Mil if he signs an extension in the next year.(provided he makes allnba teams which he should) It means nothing really in this trade proposal.. Also , I think the back court of Irving Booker would be hands down the best in the league, and the odds of Irving not staying in Phoenix would be slim to none.

You ain't getting Josh Jackson, friend. You had Lebron. Now we get the super-duperstar. It's only fair. Cheers!

[matt131]

Suns fans: Here is a Cavs fan take on this:
Even by giving up Bledsoe and Jackson , the Suns win the trade. The Cavs get an uproven high upside rookie and an pg that can hardly stay healthy for a a proven allstar with the best handles in the league and some Suns fans are saying that isn't worth more to you than an unproven high ceiling athlete? The timeline argument holds some weight , but not if the org is committed to Irving once they sign him. Cleveland has not been committed to him since Lebron came back,hence the trade request. So aside from the argument that he might leave, using the rational that since he won't commit to signing an extension now as opposed to after opting out in 2019 to get paid more is not sensible. He stands to lose 15Mil if he signs an extension in the next year.(provided he makes allnba teams which he should) It means nothing really in this trade proposal.. Also , I think the back court of Irving Booker would be hands down the best in the league, and the odds of Irving not staying in Phoenix would be slim to none.

"pg that can hardly stay healthy" - could be talking about Irving there too

"proven allstar" - slightly subjective. If Irving and Bledsoe switched teams, Bledsoe would probably make that All Star team and Irving would find it much more difficult to. It's a conference thing, not always a player thing. Also, it's mostly a popularity contest (See Zaza and his vote count).

"using the rational that since he won't commit to signing an extension now as opposed to after opting out in 2019 to get paid more is not sensible" - Um, I think to some that is very sensible, but I also think people have a problem with him not wanting to commit at all. We aren't asking that he signs before 2019. We want him to say that he would commit long term, no matter when he signs. Just that he won't bolt in FA.

"provided he makes allnba teams which he should" - He made third team All NBA. Once. In 2015. And with the amount of guard talent in the League (Steph, Klay, Harden, Paul, Wall, Thomas, Westbrook, Lillard, Conley, DeRozan, Lowry), it isn't a foregone conclusion that Kyrie SHOULD make an all NBA team.

" I think the back court of Irving Booker would be hands down the best in the league" - Um, I love the Suns. But Steph/Klay will be the best for a long time, Wall/Beasley is better right now, Harden/Paul is better right now. And those three tandems all have at least one player who can play defense.

Now, I want Kyrie. I do. I think he is fun to watch and is very exciting and talented. But he has driven his own price down. The Cavs are not in the driver seat. Plain and simple. They either trade him for what is out there, or they have a highly dysfunctional team next year. No reason for us to overpay by giving up a player we tried very hard to draft and see as a great fit in our system.

[Waylay13]

Today and tomorrow will be a big day with regards to any Irving trade. Much as I want something exciting to happen, if it doesn't in the next 24-48 hours, then it's probably a safe bet that Jackson is safe.

With Irving stating that he wont commit it a trade if it does happen shouldnt be anything more than Kyrie for Bledsoe and maybe a second rounder.

Why in the world would Cleveland do that? Kyrie is better and younger than Bledsoe.

If all it took was Bledsoe and maybe a second rounder Sarver would have driven Bledsoe personally to Cleveland and dropped him off.

Is Kyrie better? how much defense does Kyrie play? how much rebounding doesnt Kyrie do? Last year Kyrie averaged 25.2 points a game but the year before he only scored 19.6. Bledsoe on the other hand averaged 21.1 points last year, rebounded, passed and played better defense. To top this off Bledsoe is shown to be a team player working during the summer months to improve the team and himself. Kyrie has been complaining that he doesnt want to be on a team with one of the greatest players to play the game and promising that he won't commit to any team that trades for him. In the end for the long term health of your team Bledsoe looks like a much better piece despite being two years old. If Cleveland wants to risk their season by not trading Kyrie but the difference between Kyrie and Bledsoe isnt that big.