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Pre Draft Discussion

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Who would you rather take at 16 if one of these guys slipped?

Collin Sexton
22
45%
Miles Bridges
27
55%
 
Total votes: 49

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Re: The #16 and #31 Discussion Thread 

Post#1241 » by AtheJ415 » Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:18 pm

Saberestar wrote:
AtheJ415 wrote:
Saberestar wrote:The problem is that he is not 6'7 or 6'8 like Green is. Zhaire is really small (6'2.75 without shoes)...he is 6'4 at most. He reminds me of KJ Daniels.

He is long, but that is not gonna be enough to play around the rim at the next level. He needs to improve a lot his release (too slow) and his ball handling. And a lot of more things...he is raw but has potential.

I agree. I do not want the Suns picking him at #16.


From Stepien just for everybody saying he is too small, not a good defender, and has a broken jumper:

Aggressive defender with quick feet and plus length. Can body his man because he is quick enough to stick with him wherever he tries to go.
Incredible defensive versatility. Has defended every sort of player for Texas Tech this season, from Jevon Carter to Mohamed Bamba.
Tough player who battles through screens, fights on switches, attacks contact, and closes out hard.
Promising mechanics on jumper with compact release and up-and-down form. Doesn’t rely on forward momentum.

Also, he's 6'5" in shoes with a 6'11" wingspan. That's not elite height for a 3 but fine for a 1 or 2. And the wingspan does mean he can guard 1-3.

That is not true. He is 6'2.75 without shoes so AT MOST he can be 6'4 in shoes.
Or is he gonna play in high heels?

He plays around the rim so it is really important his size.


He guarded Mo Bamba for god's sake. Barkley said in his own book that he was 6'4.5" with an average wingspan for his size.

PJ Tucker had no problem playing around the rim as a smaller guy including in this playoffs and he is 6'5" with a 7' wingspan. Zhaire Smith is 6'4" to 6'5" (I've seen both on reputable draft sites, draftexpress has him 6'5" right now) with a 6'10" wingspan as well and a hell of a lot more athleticism than Tucker (33 inch standing vertical and 41.5 inch max vert).

Point being, I dispute that 1 inch means a player can't guard one position or not particularly when we are discussing NBA defense which is played with your hands and feet and you don't contest shots with your face. His wingspan is plenty big enough to guard 1-3 so it's a moot point, and the Suns have already said during his workout that they believe he can play defense on 1-3.

Second, he does play around the hoop but plenty of players smaller than him with less athletic and physical gifts have been able to do that.

Third, there is not reason to believe that he can't play on the perimeter, for instance standing in the corner and hitting the open corner 3, while cutting to the hoop for dunks and layups off the ball. You are assuming he can't hit an NBA corner 3 with nothing to really speak to that aside from that he didn't take a ton. Fact is, he only took open 3s in college and he hit them at a great clip, and the corner 3 is not that much different from a college 3. Nobody is expecting him to be running our offense. Booker, Jackson, and Ayton should be the ones that the offense runs through anyways. We don't want or need an Aaron Holiday type to take the ball out of their hands.
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Re: The #16 and #31 Discussion Thread 

Post#1242 » by darealjuice » Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:19 pm

AtheJ415 wrote:Every player you just listed aside from Winslow shot a boatload of 3s. Derrick Williams shot 3 3 pointers a game for god's sake. And the strawman was a direct aspect implicated by your statement that low volume makes your stats irrelevant. They aren't, particularly when your release isn't broken. His actual shot release and rotation is quite good. It's the pre-shot movement of bringing the ball down that is a problem. Thus, it isn't anything like Archie, who had to reinvent his jumper. This has been reiterated in every scouting report that his jumper is uncertain but not broken for those reasons, but hey, why let facts get in the way.


Yeah that's my point.... All of them took double the 3s, if not more, on similar percentage and it meant absolutely nothing for their shot transitioning because the volume was still small. Why take an even smaller volume's percentage at face value?

It's pretty annoying how much you want to put words in my mouth though. I didn't say anything about any statistic he had in college outside of shooting in either post, and a sample size of 40 attempts from 3 is the definition of statistically insignificant. I also never said his jump shot is broken, just that you pointing out a low volume shooting percentage like it means anything is misleading. But hey, who needs reading comprehension?
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Re: RE: Re: The Draft Thread 3: #1 Pick Discussion 

Post#1243 » by MrMiyagi » Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:20 pm

starbosa10 wrote:
Revived wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
Spoiler:


The draft board also has more international fans, particularly from Slovenia, and more analytics people. There is a poll on the GB as well that Ayton leads.

The recent poll on the GB asking who the best player in the draft is has Doncic #1 by far. Doncic has nearly double the amount of votes that Ayton has. And I think the GB is mostly American fans yet an overwhelming majority still prefer the European prospect which is somewhat surprising.

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1715901

I was on the Kings official forum and someone asked what to do if the Suns actually take Doncic and a lot of them actually preferred Bagley over Ayton.

It does make you wonder, how would Ayton be perceived in the top of the lottery if he went to a school away from Arizona or if the only NBA team from Arizona hadn’t won the lottery.

Been saying that last paragraph for a while.
If another team had the #1 pick, Ayton would still likely be 1st overall, especially with all of the wavering on Doncic in the top 5.
SHAZAM!

Suns traded Mikal Bridges, Cam Johnson, Jae Crowder and 4 1st round picks and a swap so some Vegas Bookies would like us.
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Re: The #16 and #31 Discussion Thread 

Post#1244 » by AtheJ415 » Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:22 pm

For those who think Smith is doomed to never shoot:

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Re: The Draft Thread 3: #1 Pick Discussion 

Post#1245 » by darealjuice » Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:24 pm

Revived wrote:
darealjuice wrote:
mabundo_nagumbe wrote:
luckily for him tho, he makes all the clutch ones


Oh so he shoots 31% from 3 because he only makes the clutch ones, got it

edit: Just poking fun btw. It was a great shot, just not exactly one you want to see him shooting a lot.

You’re acting as if that was a designed play for him to take that shot. Or as if he took that shot with like 10 seconds remaining on the shot clock.

You realize the clock was running down and he received the ball at the last second and made something out of nothing right?



No, I'm actually not. My original comment was referencing how people like to adjust his percentage for heaves and tough shots late in the shot clock, and that was both. I watched the entire game, I know how he got the shot off.
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Re: The Draft Thread 3: #1 Pick Discussion 

Post#1246 » by JDJ26 » Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:24 pm

This better not be true

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Re: The Draft Thread 3: #1 Pick Discussion 

Post#1247 » by Archx » Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:26 pm

If you guys planning to start Ayton vs Doncic war ask yourself this: Do you realize how awkward would it be around here when Suns later trade for Doncic at nr4? :lol: :lol: :lol:

I bet it would be something like this :party: :party: :party: :party:
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Re: The Draft Thread 3: #1 Pick Discussion 

Post#1248 » by BobbieL » Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:28 pm

starbosa10 wrote:
Revived wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
Spoiler:


The draft board also has more international fans, particularly from Slovenia, and more analytics people. There is a poll on the GB as well that Ayton leads.

The recent poll on the GB asking who the best player in the draft is has Doncic #1 by far. Doncic has nearly double the amount of votes that Ayton has. And I think the GB is mostly American fans yet an overwhelming majority still prefer the European prospect which is somewhat surprising.

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1715901

I was on the Kings official forum and someone asked what to do if the Suns actually take Doncic and a lot of them actually preferred Bagley over Ayton.

It does make you wonder, how would Ayton be perceived in the top of the lottery if he went to a school away from Arizona or if the only NBA team from Arizona hadn’t won the lottery.

Been saying that last paragraph for a while.



for me, Ayton going to Arizona means nothing

its because - well he is 7 feet tall, weighs 250 pounds, has about 6% body fat and only really started working out physically last year

he has a 44 inch vertical jump

he rebounded well in college - which does translate to the Pro's more so than Bambas potential defense

he has a nice touch from 15 feet
makes a decent percentage of free throws for his size and age

He is a legitimate number 1 prospect. I get Doncic - I really do. But I get why Ayton is the top pick and I get why he should be the top pick

Guy is legitmate. His ceiling is what you are drafting for

I have no doubt today, Luka Doncic is a better pure basketball player than Ayton. Maybe tomorrow - but in 3 to five years, I am not so sure Doncic can get to where Ayton is
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Re: The Draft Thread 3: #1 Pick Discussion 

Post#1249 » by Kerrsed » Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:30 pm

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Re: The #16 and #31 Discussion Thread 

Post#1250 » by Saberestar » Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:33 pm

Scott Bordow final NBA mock draft:
16. Suns (21-61) via Heat: PG Aaron Holiday, 6-1, 185, UCLA

Phoenix likely will try to move back up in the lottery to acquire a point guard, or it could trade back in a deal that will net it a veteran role player. If the Suns stick at No. 16, we’re returning to the educated guess that Holiday will be the pick. He was the only player to work out for the Suns twice, he can shoot and defend. Some scouts see him as a backup, but he could be an ideal complementary point guard in a lineup that features Devin Booker, Ayton and Josh Jackson.
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Re: The Draft Thread 3: #1 Pick Discussion 

Post#1251 » by starbosa10 » Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:33 pm

BobbieL wrote:
starbosa10 wrote:
Revived wrote:The recent poll on the GB asking who the best player in the draft is has Doncic #1 by far. Doncic has nearly double the amount of votes that Ayton has. And I think the GB is mostly American fans yet an overwhelming majority still prefer the European prospect which is somewhat surprising.

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1715901

I was on the Kings official forum and someone asked what to do if the Suns actually take Doncic and a lot of them actually preferred Bagley over Ayton.

It does make you wonder, how would Ayton be perceived in the top of the lottery if he went to a school away from Arizona or if the only NBA team from Arizona hadn’t won the lottery.

Been saying that last paragraph for a while.



for me, Ayton going to Arizona means nothing

its because - well he is 7 feet tall, weighs 250 pounds, has about 6% body fat and only really started working out physically last year

he has a 44 inch vertical jump

he rebounded well in college - which does translate to the Pro's more so than Bambas potential defense

he has a nice touch from 15 feet
makes a decent percentage of free throws for his size and age

He is a legitimate number 1 prospect. I get Doncic - I really do. But I get why Ayton is the top pick and I get why he should be the top pick

Guy is legitmate. His ceiling is what you are drafting for

I have no doubt today, Luka Doncic is a better pure basketball player than Ayton. Maybe tomorrow - but in 3 to five years, I am not so sure Doncic can get to where Ayton is

Don't get me wrong hes an amazing prospect and I dont think he'll bust. Just saying for a lot of people I think it affects the narrative. If Ayton went to Oklahoma and Doncic played at Maryland I think the convo would be different
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Re: RE: Re: The Draft Thread 3: #1 Pick Discussion 

Post#1252 » by MrMiyagi » Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:35 pm

Archx wrote:If you guys planning to start Ayton vs Doncic war ask yourself this: Do you realize how awkward would it be around here when Suns later trade for Doncic at nr4?

I bet it would be something like this :party: :party: :party: :party:
Not really awkward, he's a great value at 4. I just can't justify picking him over Ayton at 1.
SHAZAM!

Suns traded Mikal Bridges, Cam Johnson, Jae Crowder and 4 1st round picks and a swap so some Vegas Bookies would like us.
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Re: RE: Re: The Draft Thread 3: #1 Pick Discussion 

Post#1253 » by MrMiyagi » Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:37 pm

JDJ26 wrote:This better not be true

Read on Twitter
I'd take Doncic over that trade.
SHAZAM!

Suns traded Mikal Bridges, Cam Johnson, Jae Crowder and 4 1st round picks and a swap so some Vegas Bookies would like us.
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Re: The #16 and #31 Discussion Thread 

Post#1254 » by Revived » Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:38 pm

AtheJ415 wrote:
Revived wrote:
Saberestar wrote:The problem is that he is not 6'7 or 6'8 like Green is. Zhaire is really small (6'2.75 without shoes)...he is 6'4 at most. He reminds me of KJ Daniels.

He is long, but that is not gonna be enough to play around the rim at the next level. He needs to improve a lot his release (too slow) and his ball handling. And a lot of more things...he is raw but has potential.

I agree. I do not want the Suns picking him at #16.

I think Archie Goodwin might actually be a better comp for than Gerald Green.


Please tell me how this sounds like either of them aside from just being athletic. None are similar players at all.:

"Zhaire Smith came out of nowhere to establish himself as a legitimate NBA prospect over the course of this season thanks to his outlier athleticism and surprising feel for the game. By some advanced metrics, he was one of the 20 or 30 most valuable players in the NCAA, with his tenacious defense and ability to do the little things on offense a key part of Texas Tech’s surprisingly successful season. He faces real questions about his ability to add value on offense without a reliable jump shot or particularly advanced handle, but Smith brings a high floor with his athleticism, feel, and defensive versatility. If his offensive game develops faster than expected, he could emerge as one of the steals of the draft."

Neither of them can do anything offensively besides be athletic. Zhaire’s shooting %s on .5 attempts a game means nothing to me. He isn’t shooting more cause he knows if he did, his shooting % would plummet to like 21%.

He’s a better defender than Archie sure. But both were these athletic freaks who don’t have much of a basketball skill set and are long term projects but have high ceilings.

He should go a little higher in the draft because of his defense being better but not by all that much imo.
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Re: The Draft Thread 3: #1 Pick Discussion 

Post#1255 » by Jstock12 » Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:40 pm

Revived wrote:
darealjuice wrote:
mabundo_nagumbe wrote:
luckily for him tho, he makes all the clutch ones


Oh so he shoots 31% from 3 because he only makes the clutch ones, got it

edit: Just poking fun btw. It was a great shot, just not exactly one you want to see him shooting a lot.

You’re acting as if that was a designed play for him to take that shot. Or as if he took that shot with like 10 seconds remaining on the shot clock.

You realize the clock was running down and he received the ball at the last second and made something out of nothing right?



At this point the Doncic haters are just grasping for straws, don't mind them. Doncic is a bust with all these flaws, while Ayton is the perfect being.
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Re: RE: Re: The Draft Thread 3: #1 Pick Discussion 

Post#1256 » by Revived » Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:40 pm

MrMiyagi wrote:
starbosa10 wrote:
Revived wrote:The recent poll on the GB asking who the best player in the draft is has Doncic #1 by far. Doncic has nearly double the amount of votes that Ayton has. And I think the GB is mostly American fans yet an overwhelming majority still prefer the European prospect which is somewhat surprising.

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1715901

I was on the Kings official forum and someone asked what to do if the Suns actually take Doncic and a lot of them actually preferred Bagley over Ayton.

It does make you wonder, how would Ayton be perceived in the top of the lottery if he went to a school away from Arizona or if the only NBA team from Arizona hadn’t won the lottery.

Been saying that last paragraph for a while.
If another team had the #1 pick, Ayton would still likely be 1st overall, especially with all of the wavering on Doncic in the top 5.

Wavering on Doncic has been created by smoke screens of teams hoping he drops to them.

Most people in Sacramento knew Doncic or Bagley is the pick on the night of the lottery depending on how the Suns pick. MPJ is clearly put out by his agent.
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Re: The Draft Thread 3: #1 Pick Discussion 

Post#1257 » by JDLAW » Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:41 pm

bwgood77 wrote:
Archx wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
Well they wouldn't inform his camp to work out for other teams anyway. What purpose would it serve for Ryan to say that? It would possibly only piss off the agent and player. He's already said on many occasions they will consider a number of prospects.



Yeah true that, but he wasn't really convincing that PHX would really consider other options. And i think it diminish a bit their chances to get really good trade offers. Specially if other clubs consider different players to be at the top.


I think they are stoked at a chance for Ayton. I am curious what they would have done at #2 though.


The Suns would be hoping that the team drafting #1 would have a brain cramp and let Ayton slide to #2. :D
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Re: The Draft Thread 3: #1 Pick Discussion 

Post#1258 » by Jstock12 » Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:41 pm

Kerrsed wrote:
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Re: The #16 and #31 Discussion Thread 

Post#1259 » by bwgood77 » Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:41 pm

A lot of Zhaire Smith experts here. A recent article of top 3&D prospects ranks him 6th out of the 10 players listed. It lists grades out of 10 for each of defense and 3 pt shooting.

He ranked 8th in defense behind Jackson, Jr, Mikal Bridges, Khyri Thomas, Josh Okogie, Chandler Hutchison, Jacob Evans and Melvin Frazier. Ahead of Huerter and Miles Bridges though.

He ranked tied for 4th (with a couple others) in 3 pt shooting behind Mikal Bridges, Khyri Thomas and Kevin Huerter (yet tied with Jackson Jr and Okogie) but slightly ahead of Evans, Miles Bridges, Hutchison and Frazier.

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/2018-nba-draft-ranking-the-10-best-3-and-d-prospects-of-this-years-class/
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Re: RE: Re: The Draft Thread 3: #1 Pick Discussion 

Post#1260 » by Archx » Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:41 pm

MrMiyagi wrote:
JDJ26 wrote:This better not be true

Read on Twitter
I'd take Doncic over that trade.



This can't be true because he is a FA after this season. And if he prefers LA, no way he stays in PHX. It's fake news. I believe he has a no-trade clause so he can block trades he doesn't like aswell.

PHX are rebuilding from ground up, makes no sense going after Kawhi who wants to probably win now. But then again, stranger things did happen...

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