The Official 2025 Offseason Thread Part 1

[garrick]

Rockets could be open for business - as we all know - if they lose to the Warriors. Granted, I think there future is so good -- that overpaying for Durant I think wouldn't be the wisest move. Just continue the growth. That said - -they have some good trade assets.

Durant Trade-stakes:
Spurs and Rockets seem to be at the top
Miami, Knicks Twolves, Mavs -- all seem to be a level below

Read on Twitter

I'm thinking though the Rockets would probably be much more willing to trade for Giannis instead of KD as KD would just be at most a 2-3 year rental before he drops off significantly. Giannis is still in his prime and someone a team would trade a lot of future draft capital for.

[BobbieL]

Rockets could be open for business - as we all know - if they lose to the Warriors. Granted, I think there future is so good -- that overpaying for Durant I think wouldn't be the wisest move. Just continue the growth. That said - -they have some good trade assets.

Durant Trade-stakes:
Spurs and Rockets seem to be at the top
Miami, Knicks Twolves, Mavs -- all seem to be a level below

Read on Twitter

I'm thinking though the Rockets would probably be much more willing to trade for Giannis instead of KD as KD would just be at most a 2-3 year rental before he drops off significantly. Giannis is still in his prime and someone a team would trade a lot of future draft capital for.

I think KD fits them pretty well though.

Giannis can go to Brooklyn

[Ghost of Kleine]

Pretty sure even if he accepted a buyout, which I don't think he will, there's going to be some dead cap for us that'll count against. It's bad enough that his agent's son is the CEO of the team.

Beal's not gonna give up 30 million for a buyout and even if by some miracle, he can be convinced into doing that, we'd at best be stuck with23- 25 million (dead cap) on our books for the next 5 years.

My point is not asking him to give up 30m to stretch him - which is the amount he needs to be at to stretch him

My point is what dollar figure will it take to get under the second apron to be able to aggregate contracts. If think that number is like $7-8m. So, just using $7.5m -- see if he would accept a buyout of $95m - as presumably, on the open market he can get close to $10-15m over two years
Suns buy him out, they get under the apron, they don't lose any draft picks and Beal is gone and his contract will create a HUGE expiring in the summer of 2027. Which should be the target goal

Now maybe i am totally wrong about how much they need to shave but if I am correct - you just have him on your books for two years but he is not on the roster.

Read on Twitter

Are you sure though man? This report has the Suns getting under the 2nd apron by around 5 million just from declining Micics' 8 million and buying out Martin's 8 million expiring.

Then obviously any trades we make wherein we take back over that 5 million would put us back over the 2nd apron? UNLESS...................

We trade Allen and O'neale and take back less money than their salaries in a trade. Now the trades I'd Specifically target for those players would be:

1- Allen/ Richards (21 million) to Orlando for Bidatze ($8 million) / Harris ($7 million expiring)/ Josephs ($4 million expiring)/ Orlando 25' 2nd (46th pick)/ 26' 2nd (via DET or MIL).
** Thos trade would save us around an additional $13 million.

2- O'neale to Brooklyn for Filler/ BRK 25' 2nd (36th pick).
** This trade would save us around $8 million.
So altogether we'd start out 5 million under the 2nd apron. And after trading BOTH Allen and O'neale, We'd now be under the 2nd apron by about $26 million without ever trading Beal or KD. Sure we'd lose Allen, O'neale and Richards, but we'd replace them as follows:

Allen-
Replaced by Gary Trent Jr on vet min.

O'neale-
Replaced by Jae Crowder or Torrey Craig on vet minimum.

Nik Richards-
Replaced by Goga Bidatze.

** Plus we'd still have $26 million under the 2nd apron!
Sign Brook Lopez for 28/ 2 ( 2nd year TO).
Sign Nance Jr at 16/2 ( 2nd yr TO).

The TOs' will give us the flexibility to decline them both next summer to have 22 million for free agency next summer when Bridges hits free agency, or we could just choose to keep them both and add that $22 million to Beal's $57 million, giving us $99 million in the loaded 27 free agency.
** Cam Johnson. hits free agency in 27 too!


Booker/ Beal/ Dunn/ Durant / Lopez.
FA/ Trent Jr/ Crowder/ Nance Jr/ Bidatze.
Gillespie/ Brea/ Thiero/ Condon/ Ighodaro.

From the draft:
29- Lendeborg or Condon. PF/C.
36- Adou Thiero. SF/PF.
46- Raynaud or Zisarky. C.
52- Kobe Brea or John Tonje. SG.

UNDRAFTED TWO WAY CONTRACTS:
( 3 allowed)
1- Xavian Lee or Mark Sears.
2- Obinna anuchili Killen.
3- Trevon Brazile or Donnie Freeman.

[Ghost of Kleine]

That much money in dead space is a decent mid-level guy. As much as I dislike the Beal acquisition and understand the want for him to be sent elsewhere, doing so in that manner in more punitive than just letting his final two years play out.

Agreed! It'd just be incredibly shortsighted and dumb to buy him.out or attach draft assets to trade him. Either scenario will only cripple us further and set us back even longer into our inevitable decade plus long rebuild.

The smartest and most responsible thing we should do with Beal is to get him to recommit to our new cultural direction in being more defensively impactful and keep him the next two seasons so his $57 million will come off our books in a very loaded/ star studded free agency!

Cam Johnson will be an unrestricted free agent that summer too bu the way for those sentimental fans stuck in their feelings. Not to mention numerous other high level free agents that we just don't have the assets to get! And star players too.

This!! I mean, without Durant, I actually think Beal could give you double figures off the bench. If healthy, he can be Sweet Lou Williams or Vinnie Johnson

[SkyBill40]

Beal's not gonna give up 30 million for a buyout and even if by some miracle, he can be convinced into doing that, we'd at best be stuck with23- 25 million (dead cap) on our books for the next 5 years.

My point is not asking him to give up 30m to stretch him - which is the amount he needs to be at to stretch him

My point is what dollar figure will it take to get under the second apron to be able to aggregate contracts. If think that number is like $7-8m. So, just using $7.5m -- see if he would accept a buyout of $95m - as presumably, on the open market he can get close to $10-15m over two years
Suns buy him out, they get under the apron, they don't lose any draft picks and Beal is gone and his contract will create a HUGE expiring in the summer of 2027. Which should be the target goal

Now maybe i am totally wrong about how much they need to shave but if I am correct - you just have him on your books for two years but he is not on the roster.

Read on Twitter

Are you sure though man? This report has the Suns getting under the 2nd apron by around 5 million just from declining Micics' 8 million and buying out Martin's 8 million expiring.

Then obviously any trades we make wherein we take back over that 5 million would put us back over the 2nd apron? UNLESS...................

We trade Allen and O'neale and take back less money than their salaries in a trade. Now the trades I'd Specifically target for those players would be:

1- Allen/ Richards (21 million) to Orlando for Bidatze ($8 million) / Harris ($7 million expiring)/ Josephs ($4 million expiring)/ Orlando 25' 2nd (46th pick)/ 26' 2nd (via DET or MIL).
** Thos trade would save us around an additional $13 million.

2- O'neale to Brooklyn for Filler/ BRK 25' 2nd (36th pick).
** This trade would save us around $8 million.
So altogether we'd start out 5 million under the 2nd apron. And after trading BOTH Allen and O'neale, We'd now be under the 2nd apron by about $26 million without ever trading Beal or KD. Sure we'd lose Allen, O'neale and Richards, but we'd replace them as follows:

Allen-
Replaced by Gary Trent Jr on vet min.

O'neale-
Replaced by Jae Crowder or Torrey Craig on vet minimum.

Nik Richards-
Replaced by Goga Bidatze.

** Plus we'd still have $26 million under the 2nd apron!
Sign Brook Lopez for 28/ 2 ( 2nd year TO).
Sign Nance Jr at 16/2 ( 2nd yr TO).

The TOs' will give us the flexibility to decline them both next summer to have 22 million for free agency next summer when Bridges hits free agency, or we could just choose to keep them both and add that $22 million to Beal's $57 million, giving us $99 million in the loaded 27 free agency.
** Cam Johnson. hits free agency in 27 too!


Booker/ Beal/ Dunn/ Durant / Lopez.
FA/ Trent Jr/ Crowder/ Nance Jr/ Bidatze.
Gillespie/ Brea/ Thiero/ Condon/ Ighodaro.

From the draft:
29- Lendeborg or Condon. PF/C.
36- Adou Thiero. SF/PF.
46- Raynaud or Zisarky. C.
52- Kobe Brea or John Tonje. SG.

UNDRAFTED TWO WAY CONTRACTS:
( 3 allowed)
1- Xavian Lee or Mark Sears.
2- Obinna anuchili Killen.
3- Trevon Brazile or Donnie Freeman.

No chance in hell we're going back down the Crowder road. Dude is washed up anyway. He's vastly overrated anyway.

Sent from my SM-F936U using RealGM mobile app

[Ghost of Kleine]

Spoiler:

No offense

But this gives me vibes of:

Step 1: Trade for Giannis
Step 2: ???
Step 3: PROFIT!!!

Also I don't see how you're getting Mark Williams AND picks for Grayson when he was almost sent to LA for Knecht, LA 2031 unprotected pick and a pick swap

Lol! None taken man! It's just that, that specific Mark Williams trade was an entirely different situation than now contextually man.

That was under the conditions that LA was desperate and searching for ANY RELEVANT CENTER to pair with Doncic and Lebron as it's their biggest weakness.

And that was also prior to Mark Williams failing the physical for the trade to even be completed, and the surrounding optics now likely involved around his percieved value and overall durability.

Furthermore, you add in the factor that the Hornets were willing to move on from Williams in favor of an unproven young undrafted option in Diabate, and those factors speak to his percieved value by Charlotte. Lastly with Williams in today's NBA, which is more of a premium and clearly has more percieved attached value in this current NBA climate??

Centers that can block shots but can't shoot or space the floor, or 3 & D centers that are versatile and fan do both things if not more?? In terms of perceived value, my point is limited skillsets offer diminished or restricted value.

For example, which of these centers (free agents) would likely pull more value in a trade? Capela or B Lopez? Vucevic or Adams?
Biyombo or Valuncias?? The value pattern should be obvious I'd hope.

Mark Williams is a quality defensive center with size, but that accounts for modest value in this current iteration of the NBA and how teams are flourishing.

So Williams value aside from desperate teams ( at that time) looking for really any quality center and who don't really care about their draft picks anyways because they just landed a generational talent in Luka and project to be a top team for the next decade are willing to frivolously overpay!

But that obviously doesn't accurately reflect a specific player's market value under those specific conditions.

Now looking at the archetype they were looking for in return in Knecht. A young, floor spacing wing that's skilled/ adept in hitting 3 pointers as obviously they have floor spacing issues! And then you make the comparison for the current value assessment between Allen and Knecht.

https://stathead.com/basketball/versus-finder.cgi?player_id2=knechda01&year_min=2025&player_id1=allengr01&seasons_type=forall&request=1&utm_medium=sr_xsite&utm_id=allengr01&utm_campaign=2023_01_wdgt_player_comparison&utm_source=bbr

And you find that Allen is pretty much better across the board in all categories. Also you have the distinction with Charlotte that they severely struggle both in trades and free agency to bring in legitimate quality free agents.

And are most likely undoubtedly trying to get better and make the playoffs this decade hopefully, and you'd ask yourself for a team already flush with young lottery talent and a lot of cap space, no no high quality spacers, 3 PT shooters and a necessity for more vet pieces to advance their young core, which player should be more appealing of the two?

These are just my observations for an Allen for M Williams trade hypothetical man.

Sure you could look at it as a situational overpay but given how far that is from the value you're proposing, I just don't see how that gets close to getting it done. From a good young rookie and 2 picks to 30yo player and GIVING up 1-2 picks is crazy. I don't even think the Hornets were all in on trading Williams but it was an offer they couldn't refuse so to scale it all the way back to almost trying to package him with a pick to give him away makes no sense.

Value is subjective man! But again, it becomes scalable either in the positive or negative as a result of a variety of factors. Now you may not gauge the contextual value as I have, but my perspective stands for the reasons I've mentioned.

And obviously one teams offer doesn't universally validate a specific player's value. Otherwise you'd have to claim that Gobert was actually worth 5 picks/ players/:etc and Luka Doncics' value was validated by the return Dallas recieved in trade for him.

Obviously context matters as we've discussed many times. And the conditions that I've shared I believe substantiate my perspective reasonably enough man. But it's fine if you disagree of course.

[Ghost of Kleine]

My point is not asking him to give up 30m to stretch him - which is the amount he needs to be at to stretch him

My point is what dollar figure will it take to get under the second apron to be able to aggregate contracts. If think that number is like $7-8m. So, just using $7.5m -- see if he would accept a buyout of $95m - as presumably, on the open market he can get close to $10-15m over two years
Suns buy him out, they get under the apron, they don't lose any draft picks and Beal is gone and his contract will create a HUGE expiring in the summer of 2027. Which should be the target goal

Now maybe i am totally wrong about how much they need to shave but if I am correct - you just have him on your books for two years but he is not on the roster.

Read on Twitter

Are you sure though man? This report has the Suns getting under the 2nd apron by around 5 million just from declining Micics' 8 million and buying out Martin's 8 million expiring.

Then obviously any trades we make wherein we take back over that 5 million would put us back over the 2nd apron? UNLESS...................

We trade Allen and O'neale and take back less money than their salaries in a trade. Now the trades I'd Specifically target for those players would be:

1- Allen/ Richards (21 million) to Orlando for Bidatze ($8 million) / Harris ($7 million expiring)/ Josephs ($4 million expiring)/ Orlando 25' 2nd (46th pick)/ 26' 2nd (via DET or MIL).
** Thos trade would save us around an additional $13 million.

2- O'neale to Brooklyn for Filler/ BRK 25' 2nd (36th pick).
** This trade would save us around $8 million.
So altogether we'd start out 5 million under the 2nd apron. And after trading BOTH Allen and O'neale, We'd now be under the 2nd apron by about $26 million without ever trading Beal or KD. Sure we'd lose Allen, O'neale and Richards, but we'd replace them as follows:

Allen-
Replaced by Gary Trent Jr on vet min.

O'neale-
Replaced by Jae Crowder or Torrey Craig on vet minimum.

Nik Richards-
Replaced by Goga Bidatze.

** Plus we'd still have $26 million under the 2nd apron!
Sign Brook Lopez for 28/ 2 ( 2nd year TO).
Sign Nance Jr at 16/2 ( 2nd yr TO).

The TOs' will give us the flexibility to decline them both next summer to have 22 million for free agency next summer when Bridges hits free agency, or we could just choose to keep them both and add that $22 million to Beal's $57 million, giving us $99 million in the loaded 27 free agency.
** Cam Johnson. hits free agency in 27 too!


Booker/ Beal/ Dunn/ Durant / Lopez.
FA/ Trent Jr/ Crowder/ Nance Jr/ Bidatze.
Gillespie/ Brea/ Thiero/ Condon/ Ighodaro.

From the draft:
29- Lendeborg or Condon. PF/C.
36- Adou Thiero. SF/PF.
46- Raynaud or Zisarky. C.
52- Kobe Brea or John Tonje. SG.

UNDRAFTED TWO WAY CONTRACTS:
( 3 allowed)
1- Xavian Lee or Mark Sears.
2- Obinna anuchili Killen.
3- Trevon Brazile or Donnie Freeman.

No chance in hell we're going back down the Crowder road. Dude is washed up anyway. He's vastly overrated anyway.

Sent from my SM-F936U using RealGM mobile app

That's cool man! There'll be a number of free agents to choose from, Crowder is just one example of many we could consider for my point.

[KdoubleDees23]

I take Giannis over KD

[KdoubleDees23]

I never thought about it but Giannis would be #1 player to trade for this offseason

[BobbieL]

I never thought about it but Giannis would be #1 player to trade for this offseason

Other teams have better options

Suns really can’t beat Houston Brooklyn or San Antonio

[Ghost of Kleine]

Besides Mikal and CamJ who has JJ drafted that is talented since 2018? He’s not a great GM and should be demoted ASAP.

This!

First, Bridges was actually a McDonough pick and not even a jones selection! And although Cam was/ is pretty solid, the same could be said about Coby White too, and that pick really might of negated the pursuit of Beal in trade altogether considering how he turned out for Chicago.

Also, Hachimura being a similar archetype to Johnson too. Also, not to mention how the players he could've traded back for and missed on in that draft too:

PJ Washington, Tyler Herro, Goga Bidatze, Mattise Thybulle, Grant Williams, Brandon Clarke.

And sure he identified Jerome (which some here pointed out too) oddly enough before the draft, so that wasn't so outlier honestly. But what about the players missed there too with picking Jerome over:

Jordan Poole, Keldon Johnson, NIK CLAXTON, DANIEL GAFFORD, Taylor Horton Tucker, Terrence Mann, etc. And most importantly, the man himself the " Bol" ercoaster! BOL BOL.........lol just kidding.

He not only whiffed on Halliburton too in that draft, but also these players in notbtrading back down in thsy draft:

Isiah Stewart, TYRESE MAXEY, IMMANUEL QUICKLY, Precious Achiuwa, JOSH GREEN, JADEN MCDANIELS, PAYTON PRITCHARD, DESMOND BANE, NIK RICHARDS, ISIAH JOE, Paul Reed, Sam Merrill.

Then opted for to trade our pick for Landry "good enough to marry Monty's daughter " Shamet and whiffed on HERB JONES!! But also Day'Ron Sharpe, MILES MCBRIDE, AYO DOSUNMA, Santi Aldama, AARON WIGGINS, BJ Boston, Jericho Sims.

Numerous prospects that are/ were better than Shamet ilana way you slice it.The things about Jones and the draft, he's missed far more than he's hit on prospects. And he himself went on record stating in that article a few years back that he doesn't value the draft at all and would have NOT DRAFTED BOOKER!! Viewing him as just another shooting guard.

Jones was hired as a " Yes man" accountability shield for our previous narcissistic azzhat owner! And has self stated having no interest in the draft. And I'm really dubious of the fact that he really had anything to do with these last two drafts given his overall track record, and the convenience of Ishbia taking possession of the team and installing/ upgrading everything from the jump flaunting his money.

Basically this indicates to me that it's far more likely the new scouts that Ishbia brought in are the reason for identifying Camara and Dunn/ Ighodaro.

Under Sarver/ Jones the scouts were:
John Treloar and Todd Quinter, John Schumate. And a skeleton crew front office and a GM who self admitted to not even caring about the draft!

And under Ishbia you now have:
Daniel Gomez Otero and Pat Zipfel. And alot more resources by virtue of Ishbia being willing to spend significant money and resources upgrading various departments. I for my part just find it really convenient that now suddenly under Ishbia, after Jones entire tenure of numerous glaring misses, he's somehow hit on multiple picks two years in a row??

To me it's clearly the scouts more than Jones having a keen eye for talent. Because if he did actually have that, he wouldn't have missed so much on so many key prospects over so many drafts. But just now under new ownership he's miraculously become an astute draft evaluator. It just doesn't track with everything he's shown over almost a decade now.

You can't evaluate a GM solely on who they missed out on. That would be like saying, 29 other team's GMs suck because they didn't pick Jokic when they had (mutliple) opportunities in 2014.

You also have to evaluate on who they picked and who they picked.

Who they picked and who they picked? Do you mean who they picked and how they turned out man? I mean obviously you can argue whether or not Jones chose Cam Johnson or if it was Bowers but giving credit by default is kind of a copout to confirming his actual track record if disputable.

Now looking at the players he has drafted (chosen), obviously that's also speculative at best, but if under the assumption of crediting him with actual selections, you'd have what exactly...........................................

During his tenure with the Phoenix Suns, James Jones as general manager drafted Cameron Johnson (2019, #11), Jalen Smith (2020, #10), Day'Ron Sharpe (2021, #29, traded for), and Toumani Camara (2023, #52). He also drafted Landry Shamet in 2021 after trading the #29 pick. 

Here's a more detailed look: 

2019: Traded down and selected Cameron Johnson.2020: Selected Jalen Smith.2021: Traded the #29 pick and Jevon Carter for Landry Shamet,.2021: Drafted Day'Ron Sharpe.2023: Drafted Toumani Camara.

So:

- Cam Johnson.
Could've been Jones or Bowers really?? Debatable.

- Jalen Smith.
A 3rd rotation bench option for the Bulls.

- Day'Ron Sharpe.
A bench player for the Brooklyn Nets. But who he traded for Landry Shamet!!

- Ryan Dunn and Oso Ighodaro.
Disputable again, but gets credit by default of being the GM.

- Toumani Camara.
Disputable again, but of course is given credit by default for being the GM at the time.


Basically his beat pick to his credit was Cam Johnson. But again as some have pointed out, it's highly debatable at best given the information and connections to Cam Johnson with Bowers. Also the same could be said about Dunn, Ighodaro and Camara as a product of Ishbia and the new scouting staff.

I can say this because he himself openly stated that he doesn't value the draft and wouldn't have drafted Booker if he had made the call. And obviously Smith and Shamet we're pretty big whiffs. But yes, just as you can attach credit for picks due to him being the GM for those drafts, you can also make the comparisons for the multitude of players he's missed because it's an assessment of his ability to actually recognize talent from a number of available prospects. Not just his personal preferences man.

And yes I understand that many other teams miss on players too, but I'm not worried about their whiffs. Their fans can assess their own GMs track records in the context of their situations. I'm assessing Jones because he's our GM and represents our team Specifically.

All GMs that whiff on prospects that would have been available to them at their pick range would recieve a negative assessment for NOT RECOGNIZING THAT AVAILABLE VALUE in their specific range.

So Jones shouldn't just get a free pass just because he chose someone else. The goal is to extract the best available talent not just make selections to check boxes. Jones track record over his tenure is not good. Because if it were, we'd obviously be in a much better situation with our assets and core talent.

The results speak to the inverse pretty significantly though. And obviously the front office agrees by the speculation coming out that he'll only stay on in a diminished role and they'll assign the GM position to someone else!

[lilfishi22]

This!

First, Bridges was actually a McDonough pick and not even a jones selection! And although Cam was/ is pretty solid, the same could be said about Coby White too, and that pick really might of negated the pursuit of Beal in trade altogether considering how he turned out for Chicago.

Also, Hachimura being a similar archetype to Johnson too. Also, not to mention how the players he could've traded back for and missed on in that draft too:

PJ Washington, Tyler Herro, Goga Bidatze, Mattise Thybulle, Grant Williams, Brandon Clarke.

And sure he identified Jerome (which some here pointed out too) oddly enough before the draft, so that wasn't so outlier honestly. But what about the players missed there too with picking Jerome over:

Jordan Poole, Keldon Johnson, NIK CLAXTON, DANIEL GAFFORD, Taylor Horton Tucker, Terrence Mann, etc. And most importantly, the man himself the " Bol" ercoaster! BOL BOL.........lol just kidding.

He not only whiffed on Halliburton too in that draft, but also these players in notbtrading back down in thsy draft:

Isiah Stewart, TYRESE MAXEY, IMMANUEL QUICKLY, Precious Achiuwa, JOSH GREEN, JADEN MCDANIELS, PAYTON PRITCHARD, DESMOND BANE, NIK RICHARDS, ISIAH JOE, Paul Reed, Sam Merrill.

Then opted for to trade our pick for Landry "good enough to marry Monty's daughter " Shamet and whiffed on HERB JONES!! But also Day'Ron Sharpe, MILES MCBRIDE, AYO DOSUNMA, Santi Aldama, AARON WIGGINS, BJ Boston, Jericho Sims.

Numerous prospects that are/ were better than Shamet ilana way you slice it.The things about Jones and the draft, he's missed far more than he's hit on prospects. And he himself went on record stating in that article a few years back that he doesn't value the draft at all and would have NOT DRAFTED BOOKER!! Viewing him as just another shooting guard.

Jones was hired as a " Yes man" accountability shield for our previous narcissistic azzhat owner! And has self stated having no interest in the draft. And I'm really dubious of the fact that he really had anything to do with these last two drafts given his overall track record, and the convenience of Ishbia taking possession of the team and installing/ upgrading everything from the jump flaunting his money.

Basically this indicates to me that it's far more likely the new scouts that Ishbia brought in are the reason for identifying Camara and Dunn/ Ighodaro.

Under Sarver/ Jones the scouts were:
John Treloar and Todd Quinter, John Schumate. And a skeleton crew front office and a GM who self admitted to not even caring about the draft!

And under Ishbia you now have:
Daniel Gomez Otero and Pat Zipfel. And alot more resources by virtue of Ishbia being willing to spend significant money and resources upgrading various departments. I for my part just find it really convenient that now suddenly under Ishbia, after Jones entire tenure of numerous glaring misses, he's somehow hit on multiple picks two years in a row??

To me it's clearly the scouts more than Jones having a keen eye for talent. Because if he did actually have that, he wouldn't have missed so much on so many key prospects over so many drafts. But just now under new ownership he's miraculously become an astute draft evaluator. It just doesn't track with everything he's shown over almost a decade now.

You can't evaluate a GM solely on who they missed out on. That would be like saying, 29 other team's GMs suck because they didn't pick Jokic when they had (mutliple) opportunities in 2014.

You also have to evaluate on who they picked and who they picked.

Who they picked and who they picked? Do you mean who they picked and how they turned out man? I mean obviously you can argue whether or not Jones chose Cam Johnson or if it was Bowers but giving credit by default is kind of a copout to confirming his actual track record if disputable.

Now looking at the players he has drafted (chosen), obviously that's also speculative at best, but if under the assumption of crediting him with actual selections, you'd have what exactly...........................................

During his tenure with the Phoenix Suns, James Jones as general manager drafted Cameron Johnson (2019, #11), Jalen Smith (2020, #10), Day'Ron Sharpe (2021, #29, traded for), and Toumani Camara (2023, #52). He also drafted Landry Shamet in 2021 after trading the #29 pick. 

Here's a more detailed look: 

2019: Traded down and selected Cameron Johnson.2020: Selected Jalen Smith.2021: Traded the #29 pick and Jevon Carter for Landry Shamet,.2021: Drafted Day'Ron Sharpe.2023: Drafted Toumani Camara.

So:

- Cam Johnson.
Could've been Jones or Bowers really?? Debatable.

- Jalen Smith.
A 3rd rotation bench option for the Bulls.

- Day'Ron Sharpe.
A bench player for the Brooklyn Nets. But who he traded for Landry Shamet!!

- Ryan Dunn and Oso Ighodaro.
Disputable again, but gets credit by default of being the GM.

- Toumani Camara.
Disputable again, but of course is given credit by default for being the GM at the time.


Basically his beat pick to his credit was Cam Johnson. But again as some have pointed out, it's highly debatable at best given the information and connections to Cam Johnson with Bowers. Also the same could be said about Dunn, Ighodaro and Camara as a product of Ishbia and the new scouting staff.

I can say this because he himself openly stated that he doesn't value the draft and wouldn't have drafted Booker if he had made the call. And obviously Smith and Shamet we're pretty big whiffs. But yes, just as you can attach credit for picks due to him being the GM for those drafts, you can also make the comparisons for the multitude of players he's missed because it's an assessment of his ability to actually recognize talent from a number of available prospects. Not just his personal preferences man.

And yes I understand that many other teams miss on players too, but I'm not worried about their whiffs. Their fans can assess their own GMs track records in the context of their situations. I'm assessing Jones because he's our GM and represents our team Specifically.

All GMs that whiff on prospects that would have been available to them at their pick range would recieve a negative assessment for NOT RECOGNIZING THAT AVAILABLE VALUE in their specific range.

So Jones shouldn't just get a free pass just because he chose someone else. The goal is to extract the best available talent not just make selections to check boxes. Jones track record over his tenure is not good. Because if it were, we'd obviously be in a much better situation with our assets and core talent.

The results speak to the inverse pretty significantly though. And obviously the front office agrees by the speculation coming out that he'll only stay on in a diminished role and they'll assign the GM position to someone else!

So if you're going to dispute the man in the GM seat, I could just argue that all the bad moves weren't him and all the good moves is all JJ therefore he's an elite GM.

[Ghost of Kleine]

You can't evaluate a GM solely on who they missed out on. That would be like saying, 29 other team's GMs suck because they didn't pick Jokic when they had (mutliple) opportunities in 2014.

You also have to evaluate on who they picked and who they picked.

Who they picked and who they picked? Do you mean who they picked and how they turned out man? I mean obviously you can argue whether or not Jones chose Cam Johnson or if it was Bowers but giving credit by default is kind of a copout to confirming his actual track record if disputable.

Now looking at the players he has drafted (chosen), obviously that's also speculative at best, but if under the assumption of crediting him with actual selections, you'd have what exactly...........................................

During his tenure with the Phoenix Suns, James Jones as general manager drafted Cameron Johnson (2019, #11), Jalen Smith (2020, #10), Day'Ron Sharpe (2021, #29, traded for), and Toumani Camara (2023, #52). He also drafted Landry Shamet in 2021 after trading the #29 pick. 

Here's a more detailed look: 

2019: Traded down and selected Cameron Johnson.2020: Selected Jalen Smith.2021: Traded the #29 pick and Jevon Carter for Landry Shamet,.2021: Drafted Day'Ron Sharpe.2023: Drafted Toumani Camara.

So:

- Cam Johnson.
Could've been Jones or Bowers really?? Debatable.

- Jalen Smith.
A 3rd rotation bench option for the Bulls.

- Day'Ron Sharpe.
A bench player for the Brooklyn Nets. But who he traded for Landry Shamet!!

- Ryan Dunn and Oso Ighodaro.
Disputable again, but gets credit by default of being the GM.

- Toumani Camara.
Disputable again, but of course is given credit by default for being the GM at the time.


Basically his beat pick to his credit was Cam Johnson. But again as some have pointed out, it's highly debatable at best given the information and connections to Cam Johnson with Bowers. Also the same could be said about Dunn, Ighodaro and Camara as a product of Ishbia and the new scouting staff.

I can say this because he himself openly stated that he doesn't value the draft and wouldn't have drafted Booker if he had made the call. And obviously Smith and Shamet we're pretty big whiffs. But yes, just as you can attach credit for picks due to him being the GM for those drafts, you can also make the comparisons for the multitude of players he's missed because it's an assessment of his ability to actually recognize talent from a number of available prospects. Not just his personal preferences man.

And yes I understand that many other teams miss on players too, but I'm not worried about their whiffs. Their fans can assess their own GMs track records in the context of their situations. I'm assessing Jones because he's our GM and represents our team Specifically.

All GMs that whiff on prospects that would have been available to them at their pick range would recieve a negative assessment for NOT RECOGNIZING THAT AVAILABLE VALUE in their specific range.

So Jones shouldn't just get a free pass just because he chose someone else. The goal is to extract the best available talent not just make selections to check boxes. Jones track record over his tenure is not good. Because if it were, we'd obviously be in a much better situation with our assets and core talent.

The results speak to the inverse pretty significantly though. And obviously the front office agrees by the speculation coming out that he'll only stay on in a diminished role and they'll assign the GM position to someone else!

So if you're going to dispute the man in the GM seat, I could just argue that all the bad moves weren't him and all the good moves is all JJ therefore he's an elite GM.

That's obviously a fair argument too. It really goes either way in terms of speculation absent verification. So if that's the case, should the draft picks made be logically removed from the argument because they can't be verified?

How many solid draft picks could you honestly say we've added under his 7 year tenure man? Also considering his self stated archetype for the cerebral, skilled but unathletic shooter/ floor spacing types? Bow many of our draft picks during the last 7 years with him as the GM actually fit his stated profile he targets??

Maybe Cam Johnson and Ty Jerome? Again if equitably giving him credit for those picks by virtue of title position? My point is our draft record over the past 7 years obviously hasn't been good at all. And only really miraculously improved once Ishbia took control of the franchise and began implementing changes. Do you really think that's a coincidence?

The constant over this whole time has been Jones! And the results of us lacking significant young core talent is very evident! Lacking size, athleticism, energy, young high motor hungry players. He's been at the helmet for all of these misses. With only a very few wins in almost a decade.

I'm more inclined to focus on those whiffs because of how passing on those players obviously severely changed our competitive trajectory. And I lean into that more because it absolutely tracks with what he stated himself in that article a few years back.............

https://www.si.com/nba/suns/news/phoenix-suns-james-jones-devin-booker-espn

"He even confesses that, had he been at the helm in 2015, he probably would have passed on Booker," said Arnovitz.

"It all depends on what your goal is," Jones says. "Devin is great, but there are 50 skeletons tied to that swing for the star. It wasn't until winning was imported -- Chris, Jae Crowder, drafting a three-year guy who could help right away like Mikal -- that it translated to success. And if you don't import winning around him, there are even more skeletons. So if you want to find the guy with the highest potential to be the future star, then it makes sense to draft him -- if you're willing to navigate the land mines."

So there's his clear preference for ready made vet players, while discounting the premise of draft value due to potential misses (navigating land mines comments) as well as the countless misses on obvious talent speak to his overall lack of interest/ investment towards a more favorable outcome.

Sure alot of other teams miss too, but that's their fanbases' obligation to make relevant corresponding assessments for their situations just as ours is in regards to Jones (as our GM).

My problem with Jones is his unwillingness to add young cost controlled talent or invest in the draft, and that aversion speaks to our lack of key young talent for years and in interest of vet min options and now we're way behind the curve!

Over his 7 year tenure he's missed on around 80% of the young high end talent that was well within our draft range because of his admitted lack of interest in the draft.

And now some people want to give him credit as if he's actually a keen draft evaluator??
C'mon guys. 1-2 solid hits over 7-8 years isn't a successful model.

[Ghost of Kleine]

He absolutely does. He most definitely has hit more than he's missed on picks. Dunno, Oso, CamJo, Camara, among others.

I want him here still in some capacity.

CamJo was not JJ but Jeff Bower that heavily pushed the FO to draft him.

Remember this was the same guy that said he thought in person scouting was not necessary and thought watching youtube videos was enough, also we don't know if the scouts hit on some of these picks in spite of JJ not because of him.

I also wouldn't mind having JJ in a non personnel role but not if he has any say in the draft or with trades and free agent signings.

I give JJ full credit because he was the GM at the time. He gets all the credit when he's in the role and he also takes all the criticism for all the bad moves.

Well it's obvious that you're promoting the credit part, even if that's debatable among people here. Where's the parts in which your actually equitably attaching criticism for his bad moves though man? Arguing your position in good faith.

[Ghost of Kleine]

Gambo:

Fingers still crossed for Myers
But probably the Gregory person so Mat can control things

Gregory was the assistant coach when Mat played for Michigan State.

We will see if this the only big move in the FO. Gregory with a bigger role makes sense.

Like I said I expect the Suns to try to get Chase Richardson in the draft, but it's gonna be tough to get a pick in the #8-#14 range.

I'm just curious as to what led you to this conclusion man? That Gregory in a bigger role makes sense? What about him gives you that impression exactly? Genuinely curious question.

[lilfishi22]

Who they picked and who they picked? Do you mean who they picked and how they turned out man? I mean obviously you can argue whether or not Jones chose Cam Johnson or if it was Bowers but giving credit by default is kind of a copout to confirming his actual track record if disputable.

Now looking at the players he has drafted (chosen), obviously that's also speculative at best, but if under the assumption of crediting him with actual selections, you'd have what exactly...........................................


So:

- Cam Johnson.
Could've been Jones or Bowers really?? Debatable.

- Jalen Smith.
A 3rd rotation bench option for the Bulls.

- Day'Ron Sharpe.
A bench player for the Brooklyn Nets. But who he traded for Landry Shamet!!

- Ryan Dunn and Oso Ighodaro.
Disputable again, but gets credit by default of being the GM.

- Toumani Camara.
Disputable again, but of course is given credit by default for being the GM at the time.


Basically his beat pick to his credit was Cam Johnson. But again as some have pointed out, it's highly debatable at best given the information and connections to Cam Johnson with Bowers. Also the same could be said about Dunn, Ighodaro and Camara as a product of Ishbia and the new scouting staff.

I can say this because he himself openly stated that he doesn't value the draft and wouldn't have drafted Booker if he had made the call. And obviously Smith and Shamet we're pretty big whiffs. But yes, just as you can attach credit for picks due to him being the GM for those drafts, you can also make the comparisons for the multitude of players he's missed because it's an assessment of his ability to actually recognize talent from a number of available prospects. Not just his personal preferences man.

And yes I understand that many other teams miss on players too, but I'm not worried about their whiffs. Their fans can assess their own GMs track records in the context of their situations. I'm assessing Jones because he's our GM and represents our team Specifically.

All GMs that whiff on prospects that would have been available to them at their pick range would recieve a negative assessment for NOT RECOGNIZING THAT AVAILABLE VALUE in their specific range.

So Jones shouldn't just get a free pass just because he chose someone else. The goal is to extract the best available talent not just make selections to check boxes. Jones track record over his tenure is not good. Because if it were, we'd obviously be in a much better situation with our assets and core talent.

The results speak to the inverse pretty significantly though. And obviously the front office agrees by the speculation coming out that he'll only stay on in a diminished role and they'll assign the GM position to someone else!

So if you're going to dispute the man in the GM seat, I could just argue that all the bad moves weren't him and all the good moves is all JJ therefore he's an elite GM.

That's obviously a fair argument too. It really goes either way in terms of speculation absent verification. So if that's the case, should the draft picks made be logically removed from the argument because they can't be verified?

How many solid draft picks could you honestly say we've added under his 7 year tenure man? Also considering his self stated archetype for the cerebral, skilled but unathletic shooter/ floor spacing types? Bow many of our draft picks during the last 7 years with him as the GM actually fit his stated profile he targets??

Maybe Cam Johnson and Ty Jerome? Again if equitably giving him credit for those picks by virtue of title position? My point is our draft record over the past 7 years obviously hasn't been good at all. And only really miraculously improved once Ishbia took control of the franchise and began implementing changes. Do you really think that's a coincidence?

The constant over this whole time has been Jones! And the results of us lacking significant young core talent is very evident! Lacking size, athleticism, energy, young high motor hungry players. He's been at the helmet for all of these misses. With only a very few wins in almost a decade.

I'm more inclined to focus on those whiffs because of how passing on those players obviously severely changed our competitive trajectory. And I lean into that more because it absolutely tracks with what he stated himself in that article a few years back.............

https://www.si.com/nba/suns/news/phoenix-suns-james-jones-devin-booker-espn

"He even confesses that, had he been at the helm in 2015, he probably would have passed on Booker," said Arnovitz.

"It all depends on what your goal is," Jones says. "Devin is great, but there are 50 skeletons tied to that swing for the star. It wasn't until winning was imported -- Chris, Jae Crowder, drafting a three-year guy who could help right away like Mikal -- that it translated to success. And if you don't import winning around him, there are even more skeletons. So if you want to find the guy with the highest potential to be the future star, then it makes sense to draft him -- if you're willing to navigate the land mines."

So there's his clear preference for ready made vet players, while discounting the premise of draft value due to potential misses (navigating land mines comments) as well as the countless misses on obvious talent speak to his overall lack of interest/ investment towards a more favorable outcome.

Sure alot of other teams miss too, but that's their fanbases' obligation to make relevant corresponding assessments for their situations just as ours is in regards to Jones (as our GM).

My problem with Jones is his unwillingness to add young cost controlled talent or invest in the draft, and that aversion speaks to our lack of key young talent for years and in interest of vet min options and now we're way behind the curve!

Over his 7 year tenure he's missed on around 80% of the young high end talent that was well within our draft range because of his admitted lack of interest in the draft.

And now some people want to give him credit as if he's actually a keen draft evaluator??
C'mon guys. 1-2 solid hits over 7-8 years isn't a successful model.

So absent of verification then the logical argument is that he should get all the credit and criticism because he's the man in the job

Over his 7 year tenure he's missed on around 80% of the young high end talent that was well within our draft range because of his admitted lack of interest in the draft.

This stat means literally nothing because you've compared it to nothing.

Again, you HAVE to compare the job he's done on the draft with others, preferably in a similar situation (ie no high picks etc), and see how many young higher end talent they have missed to really show whether Jones has done a good job, bad job or just an average job. If you look at other GM's and for example the great GM's hit rates are 40% and the average GM is 20% then he's basically an average GM.

[lilfishi22]

CamJo was not JJ but Jeff Bower that heavily pushed the FO to draft him.

Remember this was the same guy that said he thought in person scouting was not necessary and thought watching youtube videos was enough, also we don't know if the scouts hit on some of these picks in spite of JJ not because of him.

I also wouldn't mind having JJ in a non personnel role but not if he has any say in the draft or with trades and free agent signings.

I give JJ full credit because he was the GM at the time. He gets all the credit when he's in the role and he also takes all the criticism for all the bad moves.

Well it's obvious that you're promoting the credit part, even if that's debatable among people here. Where's the parts in which your actually equitably attaching criticism for his bad moves though man? Arguing your position in good faith.

Where have I said he doesn't deserve any of the criticism?

[Saberestar]

Fingers still crossed for Myers
But probably the Gregory person so Mat can control things

Gregory was the assistant coach when Mat played for Michigan State.

We will see if this the only big move in the FO. Gregory with a bigger role makes sense.

Like I said I expect the Suns to try to get Chase Richardson in the draft, but it's gonna be tough to get a pick in the #8-#14 range.

I'm just curious as to what led you to this conclusion man? That Gregory in a bigger role makes sense? What about him gives you that impression exactly? Genuinely curious question.

Gregory is someone with tons of experience in college basketball and has been in the same locker room as Ishbia in Michigan State.

Ishbia must have big confidence in him and he can really trust his judgment.

I expect Gregory to have a bigger role AND adding another new guy to the FO. Those two + James Jones.

Bartelstein? Probably out or in an smaller business role.

[Saberestar]

Read on Twitter

Mark Williams is officially a villain for the Lakers now lol.

That makes me to want to trade for him even more in the summer.

[Ghost of Kleine]

Read on Twitter

Mark Williams is officially a villain for the Lakers now lol.

That makes me to want to trade for him even more in the summer.

With what pieces though? I suppose for mybtrade premise, I would be willing to add in the CLE 29' 1st as long as we'd be getting back those 25' 2nds in the Williiams trade as the Hornets are already loaded with picks and they have a top 4 pick in that draft already too!

I'd really like our 26' 1st back, but don't see us being able to get that back now unless we sent a key piece from a KD trade back to them? I guess for me, it'd depend upon what they do with KD. But this was a really good target suggestion and one our front office should be looking at!!