Season Speculation, Trade Ideas & Discussion Pt. 6

[jredsaz]

What?! I am 1000% against using up all of our cap space for 1 year of Dewayne Dedmon. Even on those giant deals that are short-term, it impacts your ability to add guys via trade. It also can create resentment on the team if we are telling people like Elfrid or Warren they are a part of our core and giving them $7 and $11 a year only to hand Dedmon more in 1 season than both make combined. It also puts us in a corner when our guys actually hit RFA b/c they won't understand getting less when we offer $20+ mil to a role player like Dedmon.

Centers are not getting big deals anymore. You have guys like Len and Noel signing the QO. Dedmon is not getting $22 million over 1 year from any team. This is not 2016 when any 7 footer who can chew gum is getting $17 mil a year.

That's just awful logic. Plenty of expierings to accomplish any trade. Warren was gaurunteed over $50 million. Payton will get his market value. If we end up with a guard in the draft and can't flip a trade for a center, rather sign Dedmon for one year at a high salary than sign someone else like Jordan or Bradley long term or leave the space unused.

[bigfoot]

He is literally on pace to set the school record for blocked shots in a season. He has 22 blocks in his last 10 games.

Still ... half the block rate of Bamba and 2/3 of JJJ. Len averaged 2.1 in college and only gets 1.0 for his NBA career. Ayton averages 1.8 blocks per game and is one of the most physically gifted college players this year. What's wrong with the defensive side of his game. Because if he was a real rim protector Arizona would have one of the better defenses in college and instead they are one of the worst.

[AtheJ415]

What?! I am 1000% against using up all of our cap space for 1 year of Dewayne Dedmon. Even on those giant deals that are short-term, it impacts your ability to add guys via trade. It also can create resentment on the team if we are telling people like Elfrid or Warren they are a part of our core and giving them $7 and $11 a year only to hand Dedmon more in 1 season than both make combined. It also puts us in a corner when our guys actually hit RFA b/c they won't understand getting less when we offer $20+ mil to a role player like Dedmon.

Centers are not getting big deals anymore. You have guys like Len and Noel signing the QO. Dedmon is not getting $22 million over 1 year from any team. This is not 2016 when any 7 footer who can chew gum is getting $17 mil a year.

Dedmon is not like Noel and Len. He has developed a legitimate three point shot which makes him different from most centers in the league. He doesn't clog the paint on the offensive side. But I guess you didn't watch any videos of his three point shooting.

Also, if Atlanta offers Dedmon a 2-year $10M deal would we want to pry him away for 1 at $21-22M. I think Suns players would understand that Dedmon takes a risk of injury for a big payday. I'm sure everyone of those better players on the Sixers is bitching about Redick getting paid $23M.

And actually having a big contracts helps facilitate trades contrary to what you think. Remember he is one a one year expiring contract and big name players who might be available on the trade block next year need matching salaries to be moved. Giving up Demond and Chandler plus a bunch of our picks to get a Love or Davis or Cousins or other elite player can't be done without the right type of salary and expiring contracts.

I have seen every Atlanta game this season. Literally every one. He is not worth $22 mil a year. You are valuing him as a top 5 center salary-wise in an era where centers have clearly lost value and in which teams don't have cap space. There are only 2 teams who could even offer that much this offseason. So yeah, he would bite, unless he's an absolute moron, because it would be a disgusting overpay. Paying a role playing center who is at best a borderline starter near max money is one of the stupidest things I could ever imagine us doing with our cap space. It is basically saying, "No, we don't need cap space. It isn't an advantage." It's not like he could even provide leadership like JJ does. The dude was on the spurs but never had a meaningful role on a team until the last 2 seasons. Also, no **** he can shoot 3s now. So can lots of centers. He is not all that different. Bender can shoot 3s and you railed on him for his entire career here.

Also, if Atlanta offered him a 2 year $10 m deal, no **** we could pry him away at 1 year for $21-22 mil. I mean, how is that even a question? Truth is, I am thrilled we don't go into FA negotiations trying to pry somebody away by offering them double the money for somebody's entire contract in a single year. That is insane. You can usually get a player by offering a few mil more. You don't need to double their salary over 1 year, essentially quadrupling the offer of the other team lmao.

Finally, you are misunderstanding the way trades work with a team that has cap space and a team that doesn't. Salary-matching becomes complicated when it comes to teams operating over the cap or over the luxury tax line. Us being able to simply take dead salary is fine. The days of expirings being super valuable passed in 2014. We don't need anybody making $22 mil just to facilitate a trade for any of those guys. As a team operating under the cap, we would not need matching salaries. We would need to get within $6 million.

[bigfoot]

Man, I feel like this team is finally really starting to round out personnel wise. I definitely see us going after one of the bigs in this draft. Not sure I'd be in love with putting a 6'9 poor rebounding PF at center though (jjj).

JJJ and Bamba look talented but very raw to me. I think that both are gonna be risky picks, so I would prefer other prospects over them.

Sure but these may be our only options depending on our draft position. They are raw and would need more tutelage behind better players for a year or two.

[lilfishi22]

AtheJ415 making a ton of sense out here

[AtheJ415]

What?! I am 1000% against using up all of our cap space for 1 year of Dewayne Dedmon. Even on those giant deals that are short-term, it impacts your ability to add guys via trade. It also can create resentment on the team if we are telling people like Elfrid or Warren they are a part of our core and giving them $7 and $11 a year only to hand Dedmon more in 1 season than both make combined. It also puts us in a corner when our guys actually hit RFA b/c they won't understand getting less when we offer $20+ mil to a role player like Dedmon.

Centers are not getting big deals anymore. You have guys like Len and Noel signing the QO. Dedmon is not getting $22 million over 1 year from any team. This is not 2016 when any 7 footer who can chew gum is getting $17 mil a year.

That's just awful logic. Plenty of expierings to accomplish any trade. Warren was gaurunteed over $50 million. Payton will get his market value. If we end up with a guard in the draft and can't flip a trade for a center, rather sign Dedmon for one year at a high salary than sign someone else like Jordan or Bradley long term or leave the space unused.

Why would Jordan or Bradley have to be long-term? Why not just give Jordan, a much better player, a large 1 year deal in that case? Also, you do realize we are talking Dedmon at $22 million, right? You are talking $3 mil away from a max. It is one of the stupidest things I have read on the internet.

If we want to facilitate a trade, we could give Mike freaking James $22 mil. We could give Len that for God's sake, or Okafor, or Brooke Lopez, who has a much longer history of hitting 3s than Dedmon. It doesn't make this somehow logical.

Let's review Dedmon here, our suddenly max worthy player.

Career averages of 5 points, 0.8 blocks, 68% from FT, 5 rebounds, and 37.5% from 3. He is a good 3 point shooter this year and overall a solid defender, but not spectacular, and not overall a particularly good player, who is also 28 years old and thus not a great fit for the team. A barely positive VORP of 0.6, and a BPM of NEGATIVE 0.8 for his career.

I am not okay paying average players near max money just to give somebody the money. We could eat a large expiring and get a pick to do that.

[bigfoot]

What?! I am 1000% against using up all of our cap space for 1 year of Dewayne Dedmon. Even on those giant deals that are short-term, it impacts your ability to add guys via trade. It also can create resentment on the team if we are telling people like Elfrid or Warren they are a part of our core and giving them $7 and $11 a year only to hand Dedmon more in 1 season than both make combined. It also puts us in a corner when our guys actually hit RFA b/c they won't understand getting less when we offer $20+ mil to a role player like Dedmon.

Centers are not getting big deals anymore. You have guys like Len and Noel signing the QO. Dedmon is not getting $22 million over 1 year from any team. This is not 2016 when any 7 footer who can chew gum is getting $17 mil a year.

That's just awful logic. Plenty of expierings to accomplish any trade. Warren was gaurunteed over $50 million. Payton will get his market value. If we end up with a guard in the draft and can't flip a trade for a center, rather sign Dedmon for one year at a high salary than sign someone else like Jordan or Bradley long term or leave the space unused.

Why would Jordan or Bradley have to be long-term? Why not just give Jordan, a much better player, a large 1 year deal in that case? Also, you do realize we are talking Dedmon at $22 million, right? You are talking $3 mil away from a max. It is one of the stupidest things I have read on the internet.

If we want to facilitate a trade, we could give Mike freaking James $22 mil. We could give Len that for God's sake, or Okafor, or Brooke Lopez, who has a much longer history of hitting 3s than Dedmon. It doesn't make this somehow logical.

Let's review Dedmon here, our suddenly max worthy player.

Career averages of 5 points, 0.8 blocks, 68% from FT, 5 rebounds, and 37.5% from 3. He is a good 3 point shooter this year and overall a solid defender, but not spectacular, and not overall a particularly good player, who is also 28 years old and thus not a great fit for the team. A barely positive VORP of 0.6, and a BPM of NEGATIVE 0.8 for his career.

I am not okay paying average players near max money just to give somebody the money. We could eat a large expiring and get a pick to do that.

So based on these criteria

a) We want to try to win next year ... make a legitimate push for the playoffs.

b) We can't draft Young or Doncic and we sign Payton.

c) We draft a PF/C knowing full well they will not be ready for prime time. As you like to say big men take longer to develop.

d) Len is not the answer. Chriss is not the answer. Chandler is too old. Williams is coming off a injury.

e) We want to preserve cap space in 2019.

f) How do we fill this glaring hole and meet criteria a by trying to win

[Removed]

We won't tolerate personal attacks - LF22

[AtheJ415]

That's just awful logic. Plenty of expierings to accomplish any trade. Warren was gaurunteed over $50 million. Payton will get his market value. If we end up with a guard in the draft and can't flip a trade for a center, rather sign Dedmon for one year at a high salary than sign someone else like Jordan or Bradley long term or leave the space unused.

Why would Jordan or Bradley have to be long-term? Why not just give Jordan, a much better player, a large 1 year deal in that case? Also, you do realize we are talking Dedmon at $22 million, right? You are talking $3 mil away from a max. It is one of the stupidest things I have read on the internet.

If we want to facilitate a trade, we could give Mike freaking James $22 mil. We could give Len that for God's sake, or Okafor, or Brooke Lopez, who has a much longer history of hitting 3s than Dedmon. It doesn't make this somehow logical.

Let's review Dedmon here, our suddenly max worthy player.

Career averages of 5 points, 0.8 blocks, 68% from FT, 5 rebounds, and 37.5% from 3. He is a good 3 point shooter this year and overall a solid defender, but not spectacular, and not overall a particularly good player, who is also 28 years old and thus not a great fit for the team. A barely positive VORP of 0.6, and a BPM of NEGATIVE 0.8 for his career.

I am not okay paying average players near max money just to give somebody the money. We could eat a large expiring and get a pick to do that.

So based on these criteria

a) We want to try to win next year ... make a legitimate push for the playoffs.

b) We can't draft Young or Doncic and we sign Payton.

c) We draft a PF/C knowing full well they will not be ready for prime time. As you like to say big men take longer to develop.

d) Len is not the answer. Chriss is not the answer. Chandler is too old. Williams is coming off a injury.

e) We want to preserve cap space in 2019.

f) How do we fill this glaring hole and meet criteria a by trying to win

All I ask is you quit bitching about other people's posts and throw some ideas out of your own. Sadly you never do. It's been real nice not having you around for two months and when Payton show up ... it's back to your usual bullcrap

I've stated my FA plan MANY times on here. To be clear though, even if I had no plan, that would still be vastly greater than giving Dedmon $22 mil over 1 year.

I'd also like to know what world you think the NBA lives in in which a guy wouldn't take more money over 1 season than a guy gets offered over 3. I am not aware of that ever happening in the history of basketball.

What is bullcrap here is you suggesting that we use $22 mil to get Dedmon because he is shooting 37.5% from 3 this year while proclaiming Bender a bust constantly.

[DRK]

Shot blocking is the most overrated stat in basketball.

Granted, I havent done much research into this year’s crop of prospects, but in the modern NBA I value much more a big man’s ability to switch onto guards on the perimeter than block shots.

What this team needs is a physical big man, who is athletic and can finish at a high rate at the rim. A team can have all the floor spacing in the world, but if you dont have a player that can finish 1v1 under the basket, your offensive system will never be efficient as defences wont respect the roll, and wont bother to help the roll man defender, thus allowing open shooters.


Can Ayton be our next Amare?

[lilfishi22]

I'll say this, generally when we talk about under the radar players, you usually talk about being able to get them on the cheap. Going $22m on an under the radar player sounds ridiculous to me.

[Mulhollanddrive]

Per 36
Dedmon: 15 points, 11 rebounds, 1 block @ 116 O-Rating
Player B: 14 points, 13 rebounds, 1 block @ 121 O-Rating

Spoiler:

Alex Len

[bwgood77]

One free agent who might be flying under the radar and could be a good fit for a one season big payday is Dewayne Dedmon. He is putting together a decent year from the three point line. Probably would fit really well next to Bender. One year and $22M would he bite? Does it even make sense to go after him for a couple years as a replacement for Len?

What? $22 million for Dewayne Dedmon? These types of centers will not command that type of money. He has a $6.3 million player option. He's worth about that..maybe a little more.

There are a lot of free agent centers this summer. There will not be a bidding war.

[bwgood77]

One free agent who might be flying under the radar and could be a good fit for a one season big payday is Dewayne Dedmon. He is putting together a decent year from the three point line. Probably would fit really well next to Bender. One year and $22M would he bite? Does it even make sense to go after him for a couple years as a replacement for Len?

Not if we draft Ayton.

Even if we draft Ayton. Remember we are talking about prospects. There is no guarantee with a draft pick. Already folks are questioning Ayton's defensive motor. Arizona's team defense is historically bad for Coach MIller. Ayton doesn't really block shots at a high rate. Really Ayton is not the type of rim protector we are looking for. Bamba or JJJ are elite shot blockers which typically does carry over to the NBA.

Whoever we draft, these so-called elite prospects should be able to handle a journeyman PF or C and if not then they are not ready for starter or bench minutes. So if they are better than Dedmon or Chriss then they would play a lot as I would assume he could cover either the backup PF or C position. Otherwise his first year is a learning experience. We've handed starting roles to Chriss and see how that worked out.

Dedmon's not a rim protector at all. He averages 1 block per 36. He's pretty underwhelming as a player. It is nice he is hitting 3s though. That is the only reason I might give him some thought, but wouldn't if we draft a C and keep Williams. I assume Chandler will be here. And Bender has been playing C well for a couple games.

[bigfoot]

I'll say this, generally when we talk about under the radar players, you usually talk about being able to get them on the cheap. Going $22m on an under the radar player sounds ridiculous to me.

Redick's top salary was $7M and he was a role player at best. Certainly under the radar last year as a free agent. No one expected him to get $23M. Why would the sixers waste money doing this?? What is their logic? Throwing away money?

KCP's top salary was $3.6M and starter averaging 13pts on a losing team. Another under the radar free agent last year. Instead he got $18M from the Lakers. Why??

Two teams with young, promising players (Lakes and Sixers) needed a few things.

1) Short term contracts to preserve cap space for the following season.
2) A veteran presence to help the young guys win
3) Big contracts to move in a trade for a legit star. Otherwise they would have to include too many of their young players to get salaries to match.
4) No body has a lot of dead space anymore. The cap floor is about $90M and the cap is $99M so about $9M million max of dead space. Suns don't have that much ... only $6M this year. No team would ever have enough dead space to absorb a max contract of a superstar. You have to have big contracts to keep from moving too many players.

I doubt anyone thinks that Redick or KCP are super elite players and deserving of max or near max money. Those two were being knowingly used by GMs to make possible deals in return for big paydays.

I never said Dedmon is an elite player just that he has some skills at the position that might fit in our team and actually could help us next year. Certainly better than stone-hand Len and old-man Chandler and probably better than a rookie prospect big man that takes a year or two to develop.

[KLEON]

Shot blocking is the most overrated stat in basketball.

Granted, I havent done much research into this year’s crop of prospects, but in the modern NBA I value much more a big man’s ability to switch onto guards on the perimeter than block shots.

What this team needs is a physical big man, who is athletic and can finish at a high rate at the rim. A team can have all the floor spacing in the world, but if you dont have a player that can finish 1v1 under the basket, your offensive system will never be efficient as defences wont respect the roll, and wont bother to help the roll man defender, thus allowing open shooters.


Can Ayton be our next Amare?

Aaron Gordon can

[bigfoot]

One free agent who might be flying under the radar and could be a good fit for a one season big payday is Dewayne Dedmon. He is putting together a decent year from the three point line. Probably would fit really well next to Bender. One year and $22M would he bite? Does it even make sense to go after him for a couple years as a replacement for Len?

What? $22 million for Dewayne Dedmon? These types of centers will not command that type of money. He has a $6.3 million player option. He's worth about that..maybe a little more.

There are a lot of free agent centers this summer. There will not be a bidding war.

Agree ... so someone offers him a 3 year $18M contract. But if we want a one year rental would he take a 1-year $22M while we wait one year for our young prospect to develop. Also have his salary available to use in a trade for Davis, Cousins, or superstar whose contracts are $30M+

[bwgood77]

Shot blocking is the most overrated stat in basketball.

Granted, I havent done much research into this year’s crop of prospects, but in the modern NBA I value much more a big man’s ability to switch onto guards on the perimeter than block shots.

What this team needs is a physical big man, who is athletic and can finish at a high rate at the rim. A team can have all the floor spacing in the world, but if you dont have a player that can finish 1v1 under the basket, your offensive system will never be efficient as defences wont respect the roll, and wont bother to help the roll man defender, thus allowing open shooters.


Can Ayton be our next Amare?

Ayton, or Bagley for that matter, could be our next Amare possibly. But Ayton doesn't have a great ability to switch onto guards on the perimeter. Of course, neither did Amare.

[bwgood77]

One free agent who might be flying under the radar and could be a good fit for a one season big payday is Dewayne Dedmon. He is putting together a decent year from the three point line. Probably would fit really well next to Bender. One year and $22M would he bite? Does it even make sense to go after him for a couple years as a replacement for Len?

What? $22 million for Dewayne Dedmon? These types of centers will not command that type of money. He has a $6.3 million player option. He's worth about that..maybe a little more.

There are a lot of free agent centers this summer. There will not be a bidding war.

Agree ... so someone offers him a 3 year $18M contract. But if we want a one year rental would he take a 1-year $22M while we wait one year for our young prospect to develop. Also have his salary available to use in a trade for Davis, Cousins, or superstar whose contracts are $30M+

You don't need a contract to trade for a player if you have the cap space. If we had $22 million in cap space to spend on Dedmon, that cap space could absorb anything that a Dedmon trade could accomplish. And the cap space could absorb other players as well, if a team wanted to trade us someone (for cap space relief and maybe give us an asset) and didn't want to pay Dedmon half his contract.

[bwgood77]

One free agent who might be flying under the radar and could be a good fit for a one season big payday is Dewayne Dedmon. He is putting together a decent year from the three point line. Probably would fit really well next to Bender. One year and $22M would he bite? Does it even make sense to go after him for a couple years as a replacement for Len?

What? $22 million for Dewayne Dedmon? These types of centers will not command that type of money. He has a $6.3 million player option. He's worth about that..maybe a little more.

There are a lot of free agent centers this summer. There will not be a bidding war.

Agree ... so someone offers him a 3 year $18M contract. But if we want a one year rental would he take a 1-year $22M while we wait one year for our young prospect to develop. Also have his salary available to use in a trade for Davis, Cousins, or superstar whose contracts are $30M+

You don't need a contract to trade for a player if you have the cap space. If we had $22 million in cap space to spend on Dedmon, that cap space could absorb anything that a Dedmon trade could accomplish. And the cap space could absorb other players as well, if a team wanted to trade us someone (for cap space relief and maybe give us an asset) and didn't want to pay Dedmon half his contract.

[AtheJ415]

Also, pending our draft selections (say we take Ayton and somebody like Robert Williams or another big slips and we take them with the Heat pick) and Cousins's health (and NO offering the super max) Gordon is the guy for our offseason imo. He fits the team. He fits the style of play. He fits the age grouping. He is super versatile and a great athlete with athletic upside and skills that he can still improve on. He went to school at Arizona so knows the state and has fans here, and probably would like to get closer to home. He is also capped out at the mini max and Orlando's GM making him available for trade clearly signals that either they aren't prepared to give him the money he wants or else they just prefer Isaac and see him as a 4 going forward. Either way, he is the best fit of the next group outside of the superstars (Lebron, George, Cousins). That said, I still think it is probably a better idea to save some of that cap space to ensure we can offer a super max the following offseason, because our pick this year, Booker, Jackson, Warren, and Bender, and our stash of future picks should be a good selling point to any star that offseason that we will be good going forward.

Parker also might be worthwhile but I am not sold on him quite yet. Same for Capela depending on money.

This lineup is super athletic and versatile going forward, though TJ obviously has to fit somewhere or transition to 6th man.:

Payton
Booker
Jackson
Gordon
Bender

Adding Young, Doncic, or Ayton to it still works due to the versatility of the others like Jackson and Bender.