The Official 2024 Offseason Thread Part 2

[Puff]

I bought this up a couple of weeks ago and Mr Miaghi brought it up last week.

Bol Bol needs to start - or for sure be the first or 2nd guy off the bench. It is time to find out what we have in him, real time. I have listed below our top shot makers and they alll need to get minutes. We know for sure that the Big Three are going to get minutes but let's put them to the test against our two most efficient scorers. We only get so many shots in a game and most games come down to what we do with those opportunities. This will show Points per Shot attempt.
...........FGA/Game Pts /Game Pts per Shot attempt
KD............19.1.............27.1.........1.41
Book.........19.2.............27.1.........1.41
Beal..........13.9.............18.2.........1.31
Allen...........9.1.............13.5.........1.48
Bol Bol.........3.5.............5.2...........1.48
O'Neal..........7.1.............8.1...........1.14
Okogie..........3.4.............4.6...........1.35

I hope Bud can integrate Bol Bol quickly into either the starting lineup of quickly off the bench. He just seems to always take good shots and he makes them, the proof is in the pudding.

[Mulhollanddrive]

Does that translate to +/- though if he's leaking on defensive assignments. 30 out of 30 teams don't think he's worth a dollar more than the min.

Morris, Allen, Okogie, Bol, Plumlee is the bench so far he's going to get all the shots he can handle. Even with Beal in the bench he's 2nd option.

[Ghost of Kleine]

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

[Ghost of Kleine]

Read on Twitter

Well! That's that.

[Ghost of Kleine]

Read on Twitter

[Saberestar]

Read on Twitter

[bigfoot]

Also, we saw the Suns have the worst start of fourth quarters ever. When Durant, Booker, and Beal went to the bench at the beginning of the 4th, leads vanished. This team needs two bench scorers.

Sure man! I agree with you there. That's exactly what my point is in moving Allen to the bench by bringing in a better, bigger, and more versatile two-way defensive SF like Covington to play in the starting lineup so we could also move Allen to the bench with O'neale and those two together would boost our bench scoring as I illustrated in my previous post. Now I wouldn't mind Hayward off the bench in a scoring role, But I really doubt he'd even be willing to come off the bench after barely getting any minutes or playing much at all for OKC. And I for my part wouldn't really want him starting either because again, defensively he'd give up as much as he scores on the other end and then we'd really only be repeating our same issues when Grayson (although a great shooter/ scorer for us in the starting lineup) really couldn't defend anyone.

And O'neale although slightly bigger than Allen, although closer to 6'4 than 6'6 too, and strong. But clearly much slower and less athletic than what we ideally need defensively in our starting lineup. Because depending upon individual perspective, Having Durant as the only defensive anchor in our starting lineup is exactly the type of pressure that resulted in him becoming worn out early in games trying to be dominant for us on both ends due to the lack of legitimate defenders, forcing our big three to have to work harder just to try and slow down opposing teams from reducing our leads we build in the first and second quarters.

And really because we couldn't stop or effectively slow down opposing teams on the defensive end, Our big three had to keep coming back in games early (not getting sufficient bench rest) just to try and reclaim/rebuild leads. Now O'neale is a solid defender, but not really big enough, quick enough, or athletic enough to really take that pressure off of our big three. Now Royce O'neale had a 114 defensive rating for us last season: https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask?q=royce+o%27neale+defense+rating
While Covington had a 108 defensive rating for Philly. Even KD who was widely considered our top defensive anchor last season had a 114 defensive rating but is considered an elite defender with a career 106 defensive rating. And Covington has a 108 defensive rating. Now when you compare the two of Covington and O'neale: https://stathead.com/tiny/z6YK7 you'll see that while O'neale shoots slightly better from three ( 37% to Covingtons' 35%). Covington still bests O'neale in multiple categories as well as defensively too.

And again, Covington has better size, length, speed/ recovery, and athleticism. So he should start as a stronger defender between Booker and KD to help take the defensive pressure off of our big three, but especially KD as he's meant to be our closer in the late stages of games. And the whole reason for adding Covington would be to remove that pressure from KD and Booker/Beal so they can focus more on being elit in the 3rd and 4th quarters, and not have to overexert themselves defensively leading to early fatigue and then exhaustion-related reduced efficiency/ struggles in the 3rd and 4th quarters. Staying fresher because adding these strong two-way defensive options will slow down the opposition from making effective runs when our stars are on the bench, allowing for greater periods of rest for our big three. and the fact that this would move both Allen and/or O'neale to our bench still supports your interest in boosting our scoring off the bench as both O'neale and Allen are really solid three-point shooters and Theiss is solid too at 36% for a switchable two way big. Kind of like what Dallas utilized with Kleber, only Theiss being slightly smaller but still very versatile.

As a starting unit, you propose

Book
Beal
Covington
Durant
Nurk

To me, that does not scream elite defense. Then look at

Monte
Grayson
O'Neale
Bol
Plumlee

Which is stronger defensively but lacks the ability to score and create. They only alternative I could live with is

Book
Grayson
Covington
Durant
Nurk

Monte
Beal
O'Neale
Bol
Plumlee

That requires sacrifice from Beal which most people on this board don't believe can or will happen. To win a ring, the Suns need sacrifice from Book, Beal, and Durant. Beal needs to be a super sixth man off the bench. Book and Durant need to take more threes.

[They_Them_Hatin]

Also, we saw the Suns have the worst start of fourth quarters ever. When Durant, Booker, and Beal went to the bench at the beginning of the 4th, leads vanished. This team needs two bench scorers.

Sure man! I agree with you there. That's exactly what my point is in moving Allen to the bench by bringing in a better, bigger, and more versatile two-way defensive SF like Covington to play in the starting lineup so we could also move Allen to the bench with O'neale and those two together would boost our bench scoring as I illustrated in my previous post. Now I wouldn't mind Hayward off the bench in a scoring role, But I really doubt he'd even be willing to come off the bench after barely getting any minutes or playing much at all for OKC. And I for my part wouldn't really want him starting either because again, defensively he'd give up as much as he scores on the other end and then we'd really only be repeating our same issues when Grayson (although a great shooter/ scorer for us in the starting lineup) really couldn't defend anyone.

And O'neale although slightly bigger than Allen, although closer to 6'4 than 6'6 too, and strong. But clearly much slower and less athletic than what we ideally need defensively in our starting lineup. Because depending upon individual perspective, Having Durant as the only defensive anchor in our starting lineup is exactly the type of pressure that resulted in him becoming worn out early in games trying to be dominant for us on both ends due to the lack of legitimate defenders, forcing our big three to have to work harder just to try and slow down opposing teams from reducing our leads we build in the first and second quarters.

And really because we couldn't stop or effectively slow down opposing teams on the defensive end, Our big three had to keep coming back in games early (not getting sufficient bench rest) just to try and reclaim/rebuild leads. Now O'neale is a solid defender, but not really big enough, quick enough, or athletic enough to really take that pressure off of our big three. Now Royce O'neale had a 114 defensive rating for us last season: https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask?q=royce+o%27neale+defense+rating
While Covington had a 108 defensive rating for Philly. Even KD who was widely considered our top defensive anchor last season had a 114 defensive rating but is considered an elite defender with a career 106 defensive rating. And Covington has a 108 defensive rating. Now when you compare the two of Covington and O'neale: https://stathead.com/tiny/z6YK7 you'll see that while O'neale shoots slightly better from three ( 37% to Covingtons' 35%). Covington still bests O'neale in multiple categories as well as defensively too.

And again, Covington has better size, length, speed/ recovery, and athleticism. So he should start as a stronger defender between Booker and KD to help take the defensive pressure off of our big three, but especially KD as he's meant to be our closer in the late stages of games. And the whole reason for adding Covington would be to remove that pressure from KD and Booker/Beal so they can focus more on being elit in the 3rd and 4th quarters, and not have to overexert themselves defensively leading to early fatigue and then exhaustion-related reduced efficiency/ struggles in the 3rd and 4th quarters. Staying fresher because adding these strong two-way defensive options will slow down the opposition from making effective runs when our stars are on the bench, allowing for greater periods of rest for our big three. and the fact that this would move both Allen and/or O'neale to our bench still supports your interest in boosting our scoring off the bench as both O'neale and Allen are really solid three-point shooters and Theiss is solid too at 36% for a switchable two way big. Kind of like what Dallas utilized with Kleber, only Theiss being slightly smaller but still very versatile.

As a starting unit, you propose

Book
Beal
Covington
Durant
Nurk

To me, that does not scream elite defense. Then look at

Monte
Grayson
O'Neale
Bol
Plumlee

Which is stronger defensively but lacks the ability to score and create. They only alternative I could live with is

Book
Grayson
Covington
Durant
Nurk

Monte
Beal
O'Neale
Bol
Plumlee

That requires sacrifice from Beal which most people on this board don't believe can or will happen. To win a ring, the Suns need sacrifice from Book, Beal, and Durant. Beal needs to be a super sixth man off the bench. Book and Durant need to take more threes.

2nd part I can see happening but first part no. He’s selfish. Him and his fan girls act like he won’t be getting $50 million & still be playing around his normal minutes.

[darealjuice]

Read on Twitter

?s=46

In case anyone wants to be mad today

[Mulhollanddrive]

Either way the finishing line up will have Beal at PG so he needs to sort that out, as the worst 4th quarter team ever.

[They_Them_Hatin]

Suns should be trying to convince Tyus or Gary Trent’s agent to take the min and try again next free agency. Improve their value like Grayson did.

[Ghost of Kleine]

Also, we saw the Suns have the worst start of fourth quarters ever. When Durant, Booker, and Beal went to the bench at the beginning of the 4th, leads vanished. This team needs two bench scorers.

Sure man! I agree with you there. That's exactly what my point is in moving Allen to the bench by bringing in a better, bigger, and more versatile two-way defensive SF like Covington to play in the starting lineup so we could also move Allen to the bench with O'neale and those two together would boost our bench scoring as I illustrated in my previous post. Now I wouldn't mind Hayward off the bench in a scoring role, But I really doubt he'd even be willing to come off the bench after barely getting any minutes or playing much at all for OKC. And I for my part wouldn't really want him starting either because again, defensively he'd give up as much as he scores on the other end and then we'd really only be repeating our same issues when Grayson (although a great shooter/ scorer for us in the starting lineup) really couldn't defend anyone.

And O'neale although slightly bigger than Allen, although closer to 6'4 than 6'6 too, and strong. But clearly much slower and less athletic than what we ideally need defensively in our starting lineup. Because depending upon individual perspective, Having Durant as the only defensive anchor in our starting lineup is exactly the type of pressure that resulted in him becoming worn out early in games trying to be dominant for us on both ends due to the lack of legitimate defenders, forcing our big three to have to work harder just to try and slow down opposing teams from reducing our leads we build in the first and second quarters.

And really because we couldn't stop or effectively slow down opposing teams on the defensive end, Our big three had to keep coming back in games early (not getting sufficient bench rest) just to try and reclaim/rebuild leads. Now O'neale is a solid defender, but not really big enough, quick enough, or athletic enough to really take that pressure off of our big three. Now Royce O'neale had a 114 defensive rating for us last season: https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask?q=royce+o%27neale+defense+rating
While Covington had a 108 defensive rating for Philly. Even KD who was widely considered our top defensive anchor last season had a 114 defensive rating but is considered an elite defender with a career 106 defensive rating. And Covington has a 108 defensive rating. Now when you compare the two of Covington and O'neale: https://stathead.com/tiny/z6YK7 you'll see that while O'neale shoots slightly better from three ( 37% to Covingtons' 35%). Covington still bests O'neale in multiple categories as well as defensively too.

And again, Covington has better size, length, speed/ recovery, and athleticism. So he should start as a stronger defender between Booker and KD to help take the defensive pressure off of our big three, but especially KD as he's meant to be our closer in the late stages of games. And the whole reason for adding Covington would be to remove that pressure from KD and Booker/Beal so they can focus more on being elit in the 3rd and 4th quarters, and not have to overexert themselves defensively leading to early fatigue and then exhaustion-related reduced efficiency/ struggles in the 3rd and 4th quarters. Staying fresher because adding these strong two-way defensive options will slow down the opposition from making effective runs when our stars are on the bench, allowing for greater periods of rest for our big three. and the fact that this would move both Allen and/or O'neale to our bench still supports your interest in boosting our scoring off the bench as both O'neale and Allen are really solid three-point shooters and Theiss is solid too at 36% for a switchable two way big. Kind of like what Dallas utilized with Kleber, only Theiss being slightly smaller but still very versatile.

As a starting unit, you propose

Book
Beal
Covington
Durant
Nurk

To me, that does not scream elite defense. Then look at

Monte
Grayson
O'Neale
Bol
Plumlee

Which is stronger defensively but lacks the ability to score and create. They only alternative I could live with is

Book
Grayson
Covington
Durant
Nurk

Monte
Beal
O'Neale
Bol
Plumlee

That requires sacrifice from Beal which most people on this board don't believe can or will happen. To win a ring, the Suns need sacrifice from Book, Beal, and Durant. Beal needs to be a super sixth man off the bench. Book and Durant need to take more threes.

As I already pointed out, Covington is a better defender than O'nale and/or Allen. Heck, man............ Covington had a better defensive ranking than our sole defensive anchor in a 36-year-old Durant! but you know what, you don't really need elite defense in the starting lineup when you've improved across the board cumulatively. You only need enough good enough defenders to be able to take a large portion of the pressure off of our big three on the defensive end of the floor so they don't have to work as hard on both ends resulting in early exhaustion. The overall impact is cumulative as it was with most all strong defensive teams. We'd be operating more efficiently as a team on defense. It's really just not as complex as you're making it out to be.

And the 2nd unit that I suggested was premised around Theiss, which isn't an option anymore. Bol was suggested in the 3rd rotation at PF. And again, hitting on three-point shots somehow doesn't count toward scoring??? Threes are the highest value FG that you can currently score in a game (aside maybe from a 4-point play off a foul of a made three. But obviously, being able to hit threes can drastically affect scoring production! And the 2nd rotation premise THAT I DID SUGGEST had:
Morris- 42% 3 PT.
Allen- 46% 3 PT.
O'neale- 37% 3PT.
Theiss- 37 3 PT.
Plumlee- 0% 3PT.

So basically 4/5 players in the 2nd rotation are high-end knockdown shooters. That kind of high-end shooting alone would provide more than enough space for easy scoring. And Allen is underrated at getting to/scoring at the rim. And has a 67% finishing % at the rim and a very solid floater at 52% too however, if it's isolation scoring is really such a prominent concern for you off the bench. You can take solace in knowing that the team will most likely stagger at least one of the big three with the bench rotations at 90% of the time if not at all times. I do agree with your last statement about Beal (at times) maybe considering coming off the bench in a 6th man role. And I do agree with your suggestion of the big three ending to take more threes.

[Mr Puddles]

Read on Twitter

?s=46

In case anyone wants to be mad today

Honestly, I'm more pissed off about this than missing out on Doncic. I was high on Doncic since day 1, but I atleast understood the justification of drafting Ayton (even though I had my doubt about him).

Haliburton was such an obvious fit. Have him play under Paul for two seasons and then let him take over the reigns. The fact that he slipped to us was a shock, and the fact that we passed up on him was an even bigger shock

[Ghost of Kleine]

Read on Twitter

?s=46

In case anyone wants to be mad today

Honestly, I'm more pissed off about this than missing out on Doncic. I was high on Doncic since day 1, but I atleast understood the justification of drafting Ayton (even though I had my doubt about him).

Haliburton was such an obvious fit. Have him play under Paul for two seasons and then let him take over the reigns. The fact that he slipped to us was a shock, and the fact that we passed up on him was an even bigger shock

Just another glaring example of why it's so critically important to not overlook/ ignore the underlying value of the draft as a cost-effective pathway to competitive sustainability! It's also a very clear example of why it's equally important to also invest correctly in legitimate high-end scouting departments and talent evaluators.

[Ghost of Kleine]

Read on Twitter

The key point for us to focus on now...........................
*** Make trades where one player's salary is sent out and an equal or less salary comes back (can do a 1 for 2 or more trade).

[Mulhollanddrive]

It's not that bad, the main issue is no MLE for the bench.

Our top 8-9 would probably be the same if we weren't 2nd apron - Booker, Durant, Beal, Nurkic, Allen, Morris, O'Neale, Bol, Plumlee.

But we could have gotten Dunn or Highsmith via MLE.

Although that costs $25m and may be better spent on coaching anyway, so it's a wash.

[Mr Puddles]

It's not that bad, the main issue is no MLE for the bench.

Our top 8-9 would probably be the same if we weren't 2nd apron - Booker, Durant, Beal, Nurkic, Allen, Morris, O'Neale, Bol, Plumlee.

But we could have gotten Dunn or Highsmith via MLE.

Although that costs $25m and may be better spent on coaching anyway, so it's a wash.

I believe our first round picks are also frozen at the end of the first round if we are repeat offenders, maybe that's why we went on pick swaps galore this past off season.

[King4Day]

It's not that bad, the main issue is no MLE for the bench.

Our top 8-9 would probably be the same if we weren't 2nd apron - Booker, Durant, Beal, Nurkic, Allen, Morris, O'Neale, Bol, Plumlee.

But we could have gotten Dunn or Highsmith via MLE.

Although that costs $25m and may be better spent on coaching anyway, so it's a wash.

I believe our first round picks are also frozen at the end of the first round if we are repeat offenders, maybe that's why we went on pick swaps galore this past off season.

I think if you are over the 2nd apron in 3 out of 5 years, the last pick is frozen at the back of the first round.
As I understand it, you can still trade them, but teams are going to be less inclined to take a back of the first round pick.

[garrick]

Read on Twitter

?s=46

In case anyone wants to be mad today

Honestly, I'm more pissed off about this than missing out on Doncic. I was high on Doncic since day 1, but I atleast understood the justification of drafting Ayton (even though I had my doubt about him).

Haliburton was such an obvious fit. Have him play under Paul for two seasons and then let him take over the reigns. The fact that he slipped to us was a shock, and the fact that we passed up on him was an even bigger shock

Just another glaring example of why it's so critically important to not overlook/ ignore the underlying value of the draft as a cost-effective pathway to competitive sustainability! It's also a very clear example of why it's equally important to also invest correctly in legitimate high-end scouting departments and talent evaluators.

JJ skipped Hali, Maxey, Bane and Vassell and any one of those players would have fit this roster a lot better than Stix.

Jalen still turned into a serviceable player but we destroyed his confidence in his rookie season and couldn't wait to get rid of him for scraps without even seeing if he could contribute off the bench.

It was a total disaster it makes me furious just thinking about it.

[Revived]

Suns should be trying to convince Tyus or Gary Trent’s agent to take the min and try again next free agency. Improve their value like Grayson did.

If Tyus ends up taking a vet min deal with some other team, that would be a kick in the nuts for Suns considering he would’ve fit in perfectly and brought everything the Suns need from a PG.