The Official 2025 Offseason Thread Part 1

[Ghost of Kleine]

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[BobbieL]

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From Miami, I think Kelel Ware would have to be included --

Houston and SA to me are the two teams that make the most sense

[Saberestar]

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Mark Williams is officially a villain for the Lakers now lol.

That makes me to want to trade for him even more in the summer.

With what pieces though? I suppose for mybtrade premise, I would be willing to add in the CLE 29' 1st as long as we'd be getting back those 25' 2nds in the Williiams trade as the Hornets are already loaded with picks and they have a top 4 pick in that draft already too!

I'd really like our 26' 1st back, but don't see us being able to get that back now unless we sent a key piece from a KD trade back to them? I guess for me, it'd depend upon what they do with KD. But this was a really good target suggestion and one our front office should be looking at!!

I would try to trade for him rerouting draft capital/young player acquired in KD's trade.

[King4Day]

Rockets could be open for business - as we all know - if they lose to the Warriors. Granted, I think there future is so good -- that overpaying for Durant I think wouldn't be the wisest move. Just continue the growth. That said - -they have some good trade assets.

Durant Trade-stakes:
Spurs and Rockets seem to be at the top
Miami, Knicks Twolves, Mavs -- all seem to be a level below

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I'm thinking though the Rockets would probably be much more willing to trade for Giannis instead of KD as KD would just be at most a 2-3 year rental before he drops off significantly. Giannis is still in his prime and someone a team would trade a lot of future draft capital for.

I think KD fits them pretty well though.

Giannis can go to Brooklyn

It depends on what direction Houston wants to go:

1. Trade for KD, for less assets. You get a guy who can score anywhere.
2. Trade for Giannis. Younger. You're stripping the entire team away to get him. He doesn't fix their scoring issues.

I'd probably still go after Giannis if I'm them and worry about the rest later.

[ImNotMcDiSwear]

I'm thinking though the Rockets would probably be much more willing to trade for Giannis instead of KD as KD would just be at most a 2-3 year rental before he drops off significantly. Giannis is still in his prime and someone a team would trade a lot of future draft capital for.

I think KD fits them pretty well though.

Giannis can go to Brooklyn

It depends on what direction Houston wants to go:

1. Trade for KD, for less assets. You get a guy who can score anywhere.
2. Trade for Giannis. Younger. You're stripping the entire team away to get him. He doesn't fix their scoring issues.

I'd probably still go after Giannis if I'm them and worry about the rest later.

IMO the Rox should absolutely NOT go for Durant or Booker. HOU and OKC should be eyeing only A-1 talent with their cache of assets. Giannis, Jokic, Doncic. If not this year, then next, or the year after that. They're contenders already. With patience, one of those teams can create a dynasty.

In a few years, if we're lucky, a new owner will acquire some unlucky franchise, and perhaps we'll be in a position to capitalize. But generally, you can't expect other teams to be as foolish as we've been.

[Ghost of Kleine]

So if you're going to dispute the man in the GM seat, I could just argue that all the bad moves weren't him and all the good moves is all JJ therefore he's an elite GM.

That's obviously a fair argument too. It really goes either way in terms of speculation absent verification. So if that's the case, should the draft picks made be logically removed from the argument because they can't be verified?

How many solid draft picks could you honestly say we've added under his 7 year tenure man? Also considering his self stated archetype for the cerebral, skilled but unathletic shooter/ floor spacing types? Bow many of our draft picks during the last 7 years with him as the GM actually fit his stated profile he targets??

Maybe Cam Johnson and Ty Jerome? Again if equitably giving him credit for those picks by virtue of title position? My point is our draft record over the past 7 years obviously hasn't been good at all. And only really miraculously improved once Ishbia took control of the franchise and began implementing changes. Do you really think that's a coincidence?

The constant over this whole time has been Jones! And the results of us lacking significant young core talent is very evident! Lacking size, athleticism, energy, young high motor hungry players. He's been at the helmet for all of these misses. With only a very few wins in almost a decade.

I'm more inclined to focus on those whiffs because of how passing on those players obviously severely changed our competitive trajectory. And I lean into that more because it absolutely tracks with what he stated himself in that article a few years back.............

https://www.si.com/nba/suns/news/phoenix-suns-james-jones-devin-booker-espn

"He even confesses that, had he been at the helm in 2015, he probably would have passed on Booker," said Arnovitz.

"It all depends on what your goal is," Jones says. "Devin is great, but there are 50 skeletons tied to that swing for the star. It wasn't until winning was imported -- Chris, Jae Crowder, drafting a three-year guy who could help right away like Mikal -- that it translated to success. And if you don't import winning around him, there are even more skeletons. So if you want to find the guy with the highest potential to be the future star, then it makes sense to draft him -- if you're willing to navigate the land mines."

So there's his clear preference for ready made vet players, while discounting the premise of draft value due to potential misses (navigating land mines comments) as well as the countless misses on obvious talent speak to his overall lack of interest/ investment towards a more favorable outcome.

Sure alot of other teams miss too, but that's their fanbases' obligation to make relevant corresponding assessments/:arguments for/:against their situations just as ours is in regards to Jones (as our GM).

My problems with Jones is his unwillingness to add young cost controlled talent or invest in the draft, and that aversion speaks to our lack of key young talent for years and in interest of vet min options and now we're way behind the curve!

Over his 7 year tenure he's missed on around 80% of the young high end talent that was well within our draft range because of his admitted lack of interest in the draft.

And now some people want to give him credit as if he's actually a keen draft evaluator??
C'mon guys. 1-2 solid hits over 7-8 years isn't a successful model.

So absent of verification then the logical argument is that he should get all the credit and criticism because he's the man in the job

Over his 7 year tenure he's missed on around 80% of the young high end talent that was well within our draft range because of his admitted lack of interest in the draft.

This stat means literally nothing because you've compared it to nothing.

Again, you HAVE to compare the job he's done on the draft with others, preferably in a similar situation (ie no high picks etc), and see how many young higher end talent they have missed to really show whether Jones has done a good job, bad job or just an average job. If you look at other GM's and for example the great GM's hit rates are 40% and the average GM is 20% then he's basically an average GM.

The assessment of his record is only relative to our individual situation though and not others as our situation is contextually independent of other franchise's situations due to situational context with too many obvious variables amongst various teams, it'd be disingenuous to try and make a blanket/ analogous assessment for comparison.

This discussion is focused on James Jones relevance in his position with our individual franchise and how those decisions have affected our competitive outcome and trajectory, etc. Other teams again being contextually unique to their respective situations apart from ours, again would make promoting some premised analogous comparison irrelevant.

Any and all GMs could/ should be equitably rated on their hits and misses as is attributed to their GMs' overall performance during their tenure with their respective franchise. James Jones should be equitably as well.

And for me, as I've pointed out ad nauseam already, Jones overall record ( open to individual interpretations) as it pertains to this discussion of him being a talent evaluator of the draft is well documented/reflected in our overall lack of young, athletic, energizing high end talent and our being far behind the curve with the rest of the league in young promising talent and developmental core talent.

And up until just recently, after Ishbia officially took possession of our franchise and began making rapid adjustments/ spending, we didn't even place any real focus on the draft! Which aligns with his own statements from that article I've shared about how he doesn't value the draft because of the hit/ miss premise and " navigating land mines" metaphor.

This to me substantiates the lack of overall youth and cost controlled talent infusion matching the above prospect criteria I've offered for numerous years with him as GM. Really, what young draft prospects or legitimate developmental players has he added after Johnson and Jerome draft up until just recently when Ishbia got here??

But somehow there are people wanting to credit him with draft/ talent acquisition by simplistic virtue of his position title. Perhaps you obviously could then argue against the validity of his draft misses by the same merit of assigning credit to the actual scouts or other collaborators promoting those picks?

But then if that's the case and this becomes a logical fallacy argument, then this also becomes a pointless subjective opinion discussion. You prefer to give Jones credit for his draft record,

I don't prefer to, due to his own statements of admission that he doesn't value the draft and wouldn't have chosen Booker as an example of the likelihood that he's not invested in/ focused on making those selections himself. And this idea being further substantiated by his overall 7 yr track record and our obvious lack of young core talent as evidence of that position.

And also our overall competitive record and annual roster construction as a result of his direct representation at his position in our franchise. Argument for or againstassigning credit to his being a keen/ astute draft/ talent evaluator??

[BobbieL]

I think KD fits them pretty well though.

Giannis can go to Brooklyn

It depends on what direction Houston wants to go:

1. Trade for KD, for less assets. You get a guy who can score anywhere.
2. Trade for Giannis. Younger. You're stripping the entire team away to get him. He doesn't fix their scoring issues.

I'd probably still go after Giannis if I'm them and worry about the rest later.

IMO the Rox should absolutely NOT go for Durant or Booker. HOU and OKC should be eyeing only A-1 talent with their cache of assets. Giannis, Jokic, Doncic. If not this year, then next, or the year after that. They're contenders already. With patience, one of those teams can create a dynasty.

In a few years, if we're lucky, a new owner will acquire some unlucky franchise, and perhaps we'll be in a position to capitalize. But generally, you can't expect other teams to be as foolish as we've been.

I agree about Houston. They have a good thing going. Why waste it on Durant or Booker. They can choose to be patient. And for each one, I think its more Doncic or Jokic than Giannis

But of the two, I tihnk I pick Durant. The Suns are in no position to turn down a good deal from them and Durant would be cheaper and he can score

[Ghost of Kleine]

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Mark Williams is officially a villain for the Lakers now lol.

That makes me to want to trade for him even more in the summer.

With what pieces though? I suppose for mybtrade premise, I would be willing to add in the CLE 29' 1st as long as we'd be getting back those 25' 2nds in the Williiams trade as the Hornets are already loaded with picks and they have a top 4 pick in that draft already too!

I'd really like our 26' 1st back, but don't see us being able to get that back now unless we sent a key piece from a KD trade back to them? I guess for me, it'd depend upon what they do with KD. But this was a really good target suggestion and one our front office should be looking at!!

I would try to trade for him rerouting draft capital/young player acquired in KD's trade.

Cool! That makes sense. What do you have his trade value as in terms of equitable players and draft capital necessary for an exchange?

[BobbieL]

With what pieces though? I suppose for mybtrade premise, I would be willing to add in the CLE 29' 1st as long as we'd be getting back those 25' 2nds in the Williiams trade as the Hornets are already loaded with picks and they have a top 4 pick in that draft already too!

I'd really like our 26' 1st back, but don't see us being able to get that back now unless we sent a key piece from a KD trade back to them? I guess for me, it'd depend upon what they do with KD. But this was a really good target suggestion and one our front office should be looking at!!

I would try to trade for him rerouting draft capital/young player acquired in KD's trade.

Cool! That makes sense. What do you have his trade value as in terms of equitable players and draft capital necessary for an exchange?

You want to give up draft picks for Mark Williams?

[Ghost of Kleine]

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From Miami, I think Kelel Ware would have to be included --

Houston and SA to me are the two teams that make the most sense

Absolutely! And honestly, unless we're also getting their 26' 1st that didn't convey to to OKC because the Thunder landed their 25' 1st due to them making it into the 1st round, more significant value would be needed to balance their getting KD.

The package I'd look at would be something along the lines of:

Rozier/ Robinson/ Ware/ GS 1st ( 20th pick). And then send out a package of Allen/ Richards/ 20th pick ( via GS) to Orlando for Bidatze/ Harris expiring/ Josephs expiring/ Den 25' 1st ( 25th pick) / ORL 25' 2nd (46th pick).

We'd shave a bunch of salary by doing this! Upwards of $ 61 million altogether. We'd be giving up KD, Allen, and Richards. But getting back Bidatze, Ware, 25th pick and 46th pick and $61 million in cap space for 2026 free agency! And in 26' free agency, Mikal Bridges just happens to be an unrestricted free agent that summer! Along with a bunch of other really solid big names too.

And we'd still also have Beal's #57 million expiring for the following summer loaded 27 free agency too! If we chose to, we could essentially bring back BOTH Bridges in 26' and Johnson in 27 through accumulated cap space and a very small modicum of player to player offseason mild collusion???...lol.

Booker could talk to both over the summer in random conversations and gauge that possibility?? Heck, we'd even have enough left over to bring back "fan favorite" Ayton LOL too on a smaller deal if he's learned his lesson finally about effort. And with those picks, we'd draft:

25- Lendeborg. PF/C- Adebayo.
29- Theiro. SF/PF- Anunoby.
46- Raynaud. PF/ C- Gasol/ Sengun.
52- Tonje. SG- Booker.

[Ghost of Kleine]

I would try to trade for him rerouting draft capital/young player acquired in KD's trade.

Cool! That makes sense. What do you have his trade value as in terms of equitable players and draft capital necessary for an exchange?

You want to give up draft picks for Mark Williams?

I don't personally, but apparently Fishi and Sabre both believe that because the Lakers were willing to give up a package of Knecht/ LAL 29' 1st and a 31' swap ( or something to that effect), his trade value would require a good young prospect and two 1sts as his market value.

I'm willing to amenably try and meet that perspective with an Allen/ CLE 29' 1st for Williams/ 33rd and 34th picks (two 2nds). But if that's somehow not possible, I'd happily switch to an Allen/ Richards for Bidatze/ Harris/ Josephs/2nd trade??

And follow that up with an O'neale to Brooklyn for filler/ BRK 25' 2nd ( 36th pick) deal. Shaving salary off our cap and picking up a 2nd to add a wing/ forward or center depth at 36.

[Saberestar]

I would try to trade for him rerouting draft capital/young player acquired in KD's trade.

Cool! That makes sense. What do you have his trade value as in terms of equitable players and draft capital necessary for an exchange?

You want to give up draft picks for Mark Williams?

I would trade some draft capital for him. He is really young and already a Top 15 C in the league. 15/10/2 in his sleep and defensively he is a rim protector and can move his feet.

Yeah, I know, health is a concern but he would be a high reward guy and I doubt the price is super high. The Lakers made a mistake not trading for him IMO.

[BobbieL]

Cool! That makes sense. What do you have his trade value as in terms of equitable players and draft capital necessary for an exchange?

You want to give up draft picks for Mark Williams?

I would trade some draft capital for him. He is really young and already a Top 15 C in the league. 15/10/2 in his sleep and defensively he is a rim protector and can move his feet.

Yeah, I know, health is a concern but he would be a high reward guy and I doubt the price is super high. The Lakers made a mistake not trading for him IMO.

I just can't do it anymore. I can't give up draft picks for fringe players.

I think the Suns need to be smart the next couple years - accrue assets, use their draft picks and build a roster. It will be tough sledding for two years but take the medicine now. No more trades to make trades

[Saberestar]

You want to give up draft picks for Mark Williams?

I would trade some draft capital for him. He is really young and already a Top 15 C in the league. 15/10/2 in his sleep and defensively he is a rim protector and can move his feet.

Yeah, I know, health is a concern but he would be a high reward guy and I doubt the price is super high. The Lakers made a mistake not trading for him IMO.

I just can't do it anymore. I can't give up draft picks for fringe players.

I think the Suns need to be smart the next couple years - accrue assets, use their draft picks and build a roster. It will be tough sledding for two years but take the medicine now. No more trades to make trades

A fringe player Mark Williams? Who do you prefer at C for us next season?

[sunsbg]

We should trade for Mark Williams and Mitchell Robinson. Each plays 41 games = 82. Bingo.

[BobbieL]

I would trade some draft capital for him. He is really young and already a Top 15 C in the league. 15/10/2 in his sleep and defensively he is a rim protector and can move his feet.

Yeah, I know, health is a concern but he would be a high reward guy and I doubt the price is super high. The Lakers made a mistake not trading for him IMO.

I just can't do it anymore. I can't give up draft picks for fringe players.

I think the Suns need to be smart the next couple years - accrue assets, use their draft picks and build a roster. It will be tough sledding for two years but take the medicine now. No more trades to make trades

A fringe player Mark Williams? Who do you prefer at C for us next season?

What about Goga Biatzde from the Magic for Allen

I don't mind trading for players - but I think the Suns need to keep draft picks - that was my point. So I should have clarified - I don't mind trading players but if giving up draft picks - better damn well be the right player

[Saberestar]

I just can't do it anymore. I can't give up draft picks for fringe players.

I think the Suns need to be smart the next couple years - accrue assets, use their draft picks and build a roster. It will be tough sledding for two years but take the medicine now. No more trades to make trades

A fringe player Mark Williams? Who do you prefer at C for us next season?

What about Goga Biatzde from the Magic for Allen

I don't mind trading for players - but I think the Suns need to keep draft picks - that was my point. So I should have clarified - I don't mind trading players but if giving up draft picks - better damn well be the right player

Ok, that's a fine C but his only advantage over Mark Williams is that he has being healthier but other than that is a worse player with lower upside.

[ImNotMcDiSwear]

I just can't do it anymore. I can't give up draft picks for fringe players.

I think the Suns need to be smart the next couple years - accrue assets, use their draft picks and build a roster. It will be tough sledding for two years but take the medicine now. No more trades to make trades

A fringe player Mark Williams? Who do you prefer at C for us next season?

What about Goga Biatzde from the Magic for Allen

I don't mind trading for players - but I think the Suns need to keep draft picks - that was my point. So I should have clarified - I don't mind trading players but if giving up draft picks - better damn well be the right player

We already gave up two second round picks for Nick Richards.

Mark Williams could play great and stay healthy, and it could still be a bad trade if the team sucks regardless. In the end, it would still be just another pick we don't have.

Future picks don't get injured. It's pretty hard to go from poverty to riches. It'll take years to get out of this hole. Sooner we start, the better.

[ImNotMcDiSwear]

A fringe player Mark Williams? Who do you prefer at C for us next season?

What about Goga Biatzde from the Magic for Allen

I don't mind trading for players - but I think the Suns need to keep draft picks - that was my point. So I should have clarified - I don't mind trading players but if giving up draft picks - better damn well be the right player

We already gave up two second round picks for Nick Richards.

Mark Williams could play great and stay healthy, and it could still be a bad trade if the team sucks regardless. In the end, it would still be just another pick we don't have.

Future picks don't get injured. It's pretty hard to go from poverty to riches. It'll take years to get out of this hole. Sooner we start, the better.

Sorry - there is one huge asterisk to taking the long-term approach. No matter what, we will not have our own pick in 2026. It's quadruple(!)-swapped. We would have to be better than all of Washington, Orlando, Memphis and Charlotte to keep the pick. So, losses do no good for us whatsoever for 2025-26, 26-27, 28-29, and 30-31. 2028 and 2030 we're swapped only with Washington, so hopefully WAS remains terrible.

Please, let this madness end. I'd rather Mat make money than continuing wasting nearly every form of capital imaginable.

[BobbieL]

A fringe player Mark Williams? Who do you prefer at C for us next season?

What about Goga Biatzde from the Magic for Allen

I don't mind trading for players - but I think the Suns need to keep draft picks - that was my point. So I should have clarified - I don't mind trading players but if giving up draft picks - better damn well be the right player

We already gave up two second round picks for Nick Richards.

Mark Williams could play great and stay healthy, and it could still be a bad trade if the team sucks regardless. In the end, it would still be just another pick we don't have.

Future picks don't get injured. It's pretty hard to go from poverty to riches. It'll take years to get out of this hole. Sooner we start, the better.

My timeline is two years to start thinking about building. But if Mat does it the right way, the next two years are going to be rough. And that doesn't guarantee anything for the 2027/2028 season - but just that if they do it right, they can have some draft picks to use and a bunch of expirings for the summer of 2027.

So no need to trade future draft picks to chase the 10th seed. Find some average veterans that can just be a body on the court. Keep the draft picks, clear up the cap space

Now if you can get the right long term players - fine. If the best you can do is trade Allen for a guy l ike Grant Williams in 2027 - fine, you now have an expiring contract in 2027. Same with O'Neale

Granted, this is all predicated on not doing something utterly stupid with Beal - which to me would be trading picks to move him or stretching him long term. When the Suns are not going to be contenders in the next year for sure. I get the lux tax implications for Mat from a roster building perspective, the player you get this year with the MLE is one level of player. Or you can wait two years, and really have some cap space to get a much higher level player.