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Trade & Free Agency Ideas & Discussion 2

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Zelaznyrules
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Re: Blake Griffin Your NEWEST*** PF 

Post#1281 » by Zelaznyrules » Fri Jun 30, 2017 5:20 pm

Biff wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
Biff wrote:
He is thin and a poor rebounder. Quite a bit worse than Amare. Blake is a decent rebounder but not quite the rebounder he was early in his career. Maybe Jordan is a big reason for that but his TRB% is ±5% lower than his rookie year. Nobody else on this board seems overly concerned with our ability to rebound the ball but I think it's a huge issue. It's a bit difficult to win games when you're giving numerous possessions per game to the other team.

I'm not a huge fan of the idea of Blake signing with us. I guess if we want to be a low playoff seed for the next 5 years (and that's hinging on 2 injury prone guys being healthy), fine, but I'd rather we suck a little longer and try to build an actual deep playoff contender. To me, it's not anymore exciting to be a treadmill 1st round exit team over being a lottery team. We've never been a team that players are dying to come to and I think there's a better chance of drafting an impact player than us signing one. I think we should trade Bledsoe and stay in the lottery zone for another year and hope we pick up another impact guy in the draft next year. Hopefully a big man that can rebound.


I've mentioned big concerns about rebounding, though I imagine Chandler will play alongside Griffin if we keep him.


Yeah but Tyson will be 35 this coming year.


You're kidding right? I watched him turn 50 in a post-Christmas game against the Rockets last year.
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Re: Trade & Free Agency Ideas & Discussion 2 

Post#1282 » by WeekapaugGroove » Fri Jun 30, 2017 5:30 pm

Zelaznyrules wrote:
BobbieL wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
Well they certainly wouldn't get as much on court playing time, if you think that contributes to development.

Read on Twitter


but here is where Bender and Chriss control if they want to play and get the pay day down the road
its by earning a job

Russell Wilson beat out Matt Flynn and the rest is history

If Bender/Chriss continue to improve, the minutes will be there for all and the team will benefit


Yes and Billy flipped his burgers better than little Timmy but guess what, it's not the same thing. And it isn't just Bender and Chriss, we have a team full of players that are far from reaching their playing peak. If you play young players they make mistakes. If you're pulling out all stops to win games, you can't afford those mistakes.

To see the risks with this "bring in a star" approach, all you have to do is look at Len, look at the arguments that so many made in favor of the acquisition of Chandler and look where we are now. We all know that a lot of big men develop late. We all knew that Len came to the game late and had a long ways to go. We accepted the idea that Chandler would be a good mentor for Len and that he could learn what he needed in fits and spurts rather than by playing a major role. Our recent history suggests we were wrong.

And now, we have to decide whether to invest big dollars in Alex or let him walk. If we hadn't chased Chandler, we'd have a much better idea what to do right now but his presence delayed Len's growth, ate up the first contract cushion the CBA gave us, and left us in this position. I so hope we don't do this again and find ourselves having to consider letting Bender and maybe even Chriss walk, just as we're considering doing now with Len and Warren.


This is very well put and true. When is comes to development of young guys there's no magic formula that always works. You can find examples of guys who succeeded and failed both getting minutes early and also sitting. And it's not like any of it can be proved since you can't go back in time and change how a guys is developed. But there are definitely more examples of playing time helping guys develop than sitting. You hear from former players all the time about how the opportunity to get on the court was key for a guy breaking out. It's kind of like anything else in life you typically get better at things with reps and learning from mistakes.
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Re: Trade & Free Agency Ideas & Discussion 2 

Post#1283 » by Kjdills13 » Fri Jun 30, 2017 5:30 pm

Suns- Irving
Pacers- warren, Bender, cavs pick , something else
Cavs- Bledsoe , George

Everyone is happy
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Re: Trade & Free Agency Ideas & Discussion 2 

Post#1284 » by Scutt » Fri Jun 30, 2017 5:31 pm

Zelaznyrules wrote:
BobbieL wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
Well they certainly wouldn't get as much on court playing time, if you think that contributes to development.

Read on Twitter


but here is where Bender and Chriss control if they want to play and get the pay day down the road
its by earning a job

Russell Wilson beat out Matt Flynn and the rest is history

If Bender/Chriss continue to improve, the minutes will be there for all and the team will benefit


Yes and Billy flipped his burgers better than little Timmy but guess what, it's not the same thing. And it isn't just Bender and Chriss, we have a team full of players that are far from reaching their playing peak. If you play young players they make mistakes. If you're pulling out all stops to win games, you can't afford those mistakes.

To see the risks with this "bring in a star" approach, all you have to do is look at Len, look at the arguments that so many made in favor of the acquisition of Chandler and look where we are now. We all know that a lot of big men develop late. We all knew that Len came to the game late and had a long ways to go. We accepted the idea that Chandler would be a good mentor for Len and that he could learn what he needed in fits and spurts rather than by playing a major role. Our recent history suggests we were wrong.

And now, we have to decide whether to invest big dollars in Alex or let him walk. If we hadn't chased Chandler, we'd have a much better idea what to do right now but his presence delayed Len's growth, ate up the first contract cushion the CBA gave us, and left us in this position. I so hope we don't do this again and find ourselves having to consider letting Bender and maybe even Chriss walk, just as we're considering doing now with Len and Warren.


This :nod:
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Re: Trade & Free Agency Ideas & Discussion 2 

Post#1285 » by Son of Ra » Fri Jun 30, 2017 5:38 pm

Kjdills13 wrote:Suns- Irving
Pacers- warren, Bender, cavs pick , something else
Cavs- Bledsoe , George

Everyone is happy

I'm not. :dontknow:
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Re: Trade & Free Agency Ideas & Discussion 2 

Post#1286 » by TOO » Fri Jun 30, 2017 5:39 pm

Kjdills13 wrote:Suns- Irving
Pacers- warren, Bender, cavs pick , something else
Cavs- Bledsoe , George

Everyone is happy


Nah. No interest in a PG that doesn't pass. Also can't win w/o LeBron, even with his current team, under .500 when LeBron sits. I'd rather keep Bledsoe/Warren/Bender and it's not particularly close.
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Re: Trade & Free Agency Ideas & Discussion 2 

Post#1287 » by bwgood77 » Fri Jun 30, 2017 5:40 pm

Zelaznyrules wrote:
NTB wrote:I still don't see Blake hinders Chriss & Bender's development. Our core will still develop and while they are developing we are also gonna win more games and experience playoff action.


Well, besides minutes there's also a problem with letting them play through their mistakes. I don't know how important that is, I certainly came down on the other side of this argument until the last couple of years. Now, though, having listened to all the former players and coaches on ESPN and the NBA Channel, I've accepted the oft-voiced contention that players need considerable playing time to truly advance their NBA game. If you're trying to win, you can't leave a Bender out there for 20 minutes a game. But if you want him to become the player he can be, as quickly as it can happen, he needs to be in the game for long stretches regularly. If you have just one player that needs to learn his game, maybe you can make it work but we have Booker, Warren, Bender, Chriss, Ulis, Jackson and perhaps Williams and/or Len that are all very much in the development stage. That's not winning time IMO, that's teaching time.


That's what's odd about everything McD has been saying, like "We won't sign anyone that will take playing time away from Bender and Chriss" and Watson saying it's development time and it's ok to make mistakes, and play through them, learn from them.
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Re: Trade & Free Agency Ideas & Discussion 2 

Post#1288 » by Djedefre » Fri Jun 30, 2017 5:42 pm

Can't we just learn on our and others mistakes? Remember LMA case? It was like at a funeral here when he chose Spurs. And now, 2 years later, he's at the door, failed to achieve anything significant even in their proven system. Would our future look better and brighter today if we landed him then? I'm pretty sure the answer is no - this board would be throwing stones at McD, cursing him for pulling Knight 2.0 move and selling our future for a year or two of quasi-relevancy.
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Re: Trade & Free Agency Ideas & Discussion 2 

Post#1289 » by TOO » Fri Jun 30, 2017 5:47 pm

Djedefre wrote:Can't we just learn on our and others mistakes? Remember LMA case? It was like at a funeral here when he chose Spurs. And now, 2 years later, he's at the door, failed to achieve anything significant even in their proven system. Would our future look better and brighter today if we landed him then? I'm pretty sure the answer is no - this board would be throwing stones at McD, cursing him for pulling Knight 2.0 move and selling our future for a year or two of quasi-relevancy.


Can't say for sure, LMA was talked out of coming to Phoenix, and from the looks of it, he regretted it the day he started playing for the Spurs. He was a poor fit there. He could have worked in Phoenix, but we'll never know.
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Re: Trade & Free Agency Ideas & Discussion 2 

Post#1290 » by BobbieL » Fri Jun 30, 2017 5:49 pm

WeekapaugGroove wrote:
Zelaznyrules wrote:
BobbieL wrote:
but here is where Bender and Chriss control if they want to play and get the pay day down the road
its by earning a job

Russell Wilson beat out Matt Flynn and the rest is history

If Bender/Chriss continue to improve, the minutes will be there for all and the team will benefit


Yes and Billy flipped his burgers better than little Timmy but guess what, it's not the same thing. And it isn't just Bender and Chriss, we have a team full of players that are far from reaching their playing peak. If you play young players they make mistakes. If you're pulling out all stops to win games, you can't afford those mistakes.

To see the risks with this "bring in a star" approach, all you have to do is look at Len, look at the arguments that so many made in favor of the acquisition of Chandler and look where we are now. We all know that a lot of big men develop late. We all knew that Len came to the game late and had a long ways to go. We accepted the idea that Chandler would be a good mentor for Len and that he could learn what he needed in fits and spurts rather than by playing a major role. Our recent history suggests we were wrong.

And now, we have to decide whether to invest big dollars in Alex or let him walk. If we hadn't chased Chandler, we'd have a much better idea what to do right now but his presence delayed Len's growth, ate up the first contract cushion the CBA gave us, and left us in this position. I so hope we don't do this again and find ourselves having to consider letting Bender and maybe even Chriss walk, just as we're considering doing now with Len and Warren.


This is very well put and true. When is comes to development of young guys there's no magic formula that always works. You can find examples of guys who succeeded and failed both getting minutes early and also sitting. And it's not like any of it can be proved since you can't go back in time and change how a guys is developed. But there are definitely more examples of playing time helping guys develop than sitting. You hear from former players all the time about how the opportunity to get on the court was key for a guy breaking out. It's kind of like anything else in life you typically get better at things with reps and learning from mistakes.


Fair enough. Good points

I just am going to take the opposite view though your logic does make sense. I think Bender, Josh, Warren and Chriss can develop while having Blake Griffin on your team.

Now maybe the Warriors had the core group in place and it took adding veterans at the right time to make the team what it is. As if you recall - they traded Monta for Bogut, somehow got Lee, added Iguodala, etc.

For me - I think the young players can develop a winning mindset, get minutes with Blake Griffin on the roster. Let me add - if we do not get Blake Griffin because it means dumping Knight means too many draft picks, or losing Warren, dumping Chandler for nothing - that will not please me as I think the Suns can sign a guy Taj Gibson for much cheaper shorter years
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Re: Blake Griffin Your NEWEST*** PF 

Post#1291 » by Preacherpj » Fri Jun 30, 2017 5:51 pm

I'd be all on-board with Blake.

I think it helps get us competitive which would give our young kids meaningful experience... being in a playoff race/playoff experience. Those are big deals. Having to play pressure basketball with actual stakes involved.

Booker catches some flak for being a 'chucker' but honestly, when the team isn't really playing for anything there are less consequences to chucking shots. I'd like to see Booker in a playoff hunt.

If anyone can keep him healthy its us.
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Re: Blake Griffin Your NEWEST*** PF 

Post#1292 » by bwgood77 » Fri Jun 30, 2017 5:52 pm

Biff wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
Biff wrote:
He is thin and a poor rebounder. Quite a bit worse than Amare. Blake is a decent rebounder but not quite the rebounder he was early in his career. Maybe Jordan is a big reason for that but his TRB% is ±5% lower than his rookie year. Nobody else on this board seems overly concerned with our ability to rebound the ball but I think it's a huge issue. It's a bit difficult to win games when you're giving numerous possessions per game to the other team.

I'm not a huge fan of the idea of Blake signing with us. I guess if we want to be a low playoff seed for the next 5 years (and that's hinging on 2 injury prone guys being healthy), fine, but I'd rather we suck a little longer and try to build an actual deep playoff contender. To me, it's not anymore exciting to be a treadmill 1st round exit team over being a lottery team. We've never been a team that players are dying to come to and I think there's a better chance of drafting an impact player than us signing one. I think we should trade Bledsoe and stay in the lottery zone for another year and hope we pick up another impact guy in the draft next year. Hopefully a big man that can rebound.


I've mentioned big concerns about rebounding, though I imagine Chandler will play alongside Griffin if we keep him.


Yeah but Tyson will be 35 this coming year.


Well I certainly don't want him playing. If they are really planning on signing Blake, they should do whatever they have to do to dump one or more of Knight, Chandler and Dudley and let Len play on the QO or a small deal with a team option in 2nd year. At least it gives us some rim protection and rebounding.
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Re: Trade & Free Agency Ideas & Discussion 2 

Post#1293 » by SkinnyOMiller » Fri Jun 30, 2017 5:53 pm

Kjdills13 wrote:Suns- Irving
Pacers- warren, Bender, cavs pick , something else
Cavs- Bledsoe , George

Everyone is happy



Yeah I'll pass on that hot mess. Irving isn't worth all that, especially since the Suns would be going considerably backwards on defense with him. Would rather just keep Bledsoe and see what Bender can develop into.
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Re: Trade & Free Agency Ideas & Discussion 2 

Post#1294 » by Frank Lee » Fri Jun 30, 2017 5:59 pm

Have to give to get.

Looking at all who is available, would anyone be surprised if the MadMcDo is busy working on a plan to get both Griffin AND George?

Why, I will ask, wouldn't he ? Its the all in move of all in moves.

His toy chest is as full as what it will ever be. Sure, wed have to part with assorted young pieces/picks.... But to present a potential Line up of Bledsoe/Booker/George/Griffin/Chandler as a possible team.... to me, that trumps whatever Boston and Miami can assemble. Washington too... George would surely take notice. The Cavs may be the wildcard...but not if LeBron has his way and remains uncommitted.

Id think George would be very interested. Does he have a no trade clause ? He does have the leverage of not agreeing to resign.
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Re: Trade & Free Agency Ideas & Discussion 2 

Post#1295 » by Djedefre » Fri Jun 30, 2017 6:02 pm

TOO wrote:
Djedefre wrote:Can't we just learn on our and others mistakes? Remember LMA case? It was like at a funeral here when he chose Spurs. And now, 2 years later, he's at the door, failed to achieve anything significant even in their proven system. Would our future look better and brighter today if we landed him then? I'm pretty sure the answer is no - this board would be throwing stones at McD, cursing him for pulling Knight 2.0 move and selling our future for a year or two of quasi-relevancy.


Can't say for sure, LMA was talked out of coming to Phoenix, and from the looks of it, he regretted it the day he started playing for the Spurs. He was a poor fit there. He could have worked in Phoenix, but we'll never know.


I'm sure he could've worked in PHX. To the 1st round exit. That's the point. You simply do not throw money with long term commitment on a guy like LMA/Griffin when you're not just one (exactly that one) piece away from being a contender. You do not cut yourself maneuvering space in the future like that.
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Re: Trade & Free Agency Ideas & Discussion 2 

Post#1296 » by Zelaznyrules » Fri Jun 30, 2017 6:03 pm

WeekapaugGroove wrote: You hear from former players all the time about how the opportunity to get on the court was key for a guy breaking out.


I wanted to isolate this sentence as it's something I just glossed over in another post. I watch all the stupid NBA shows (well, except for the ones that involve the TNT clowns) and you hear this statement made and echoed all the time. I was always on the other side of this conversation, demanding players earn their time in practice. And I always supported the coach when he'd yank a player for a stupid mistake. But, according to every single player that I've heard talk about it, nothing was more important in their development than getting significant minutes (and it usually has to happen early in their career) and being allowed to play though their mistakes. If we go chasing wins, that approach goes away. It almost has to.
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Trade & Free Agency Ideas & Discussion 2 

Post#1297 » by Jdiddy701 » Fri Jun 30, 2017 6:05 pm

My question is: Who will be in the meeting with McD? Bledsoe + Booker?


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Re: Trade & Free Agency Ideas & Discussion 2 

Post#1298 » by Zelaznyrules » Fri Jun 30, 2017 6:05 pm

Kjdills13 wrote:Suns- Irving
Pacers- warren, Bender, cavs pick , something else
Cavs- Bledsoe , George

Everyone is happy


The Cavs might be happy, the Pacers would likely be ecstatic, the Suns fans would be miserable and for many years.
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Re: Trade & Free Agency Ideas & Discussion 2 

Post#1299 » by TOO » Fri Jun 30, 2017 6:09 pm

Zelaznyrules wrote:
Kjdills13 wrote:Suns- Irving
Pacers- warren, Bender, cavs pick , something else
Cavs- Bledsoe , George

Everyone is happy


The Cavs might be happy, the Pacers would likely be ecstatic, the Suns fans would be miserable and for many years.

Whats new right? :lol:
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Re: Trade & Free Agency Ideas & Discussion 2 

Post#1300 » by Jdiddy701 » Fri Jun 30, 2017 6:10 pm

Next question: if Blake signs, will we have more nationally televised games? Suns vs LAC, Christmas Day? The league is better when the Suns are good!


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