The One And Only Offseason Thread 5: Dinnertime!

[Zelaznyrules]

I'm not saying that Tolliver can't replace Frye. I really have no idea if he can. But Frye was integral to our success last season and until I see it resolved, I'm going to consider it a concern.

I'll say this too, every one of you that says all he did of value was put up three's loses instant credibility AFAIC. The old Frye, the Frye of 3 or 4 years ago was a one trick pony. But last season's version of Channing Frye was something completely different. He wasn't a star, he wasn't Amare. He was a poor rebounder and he was dominated down low by the heavy weights. And those are legitimate weaknesses. But in addition to his obvious value on offense, he defended in space very well and he was an above average help defender.

The statistics and the eyes make it clear, we struggled when Frye was on the bench. Can Tolliver replace all this with or without Markieff's help? Again, I have no idea. I have to hope so but I just don't know. If Bledsoe returns for a full season I think we'll be an even better team this season than last but IMO, we won't be quite as good as we could have been if Frye had also returned.

[kingstyyyle]

So, if Bledsoe takes the QO and stays, or just actually stays. Do you expect Boo's from the crowd at the home opener? I know I won't feel like cheering in any way..... unless you know he hits a game winner then cool. Other than that. BOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

I hope not.

Just silence would be poetic. "Starting at guard. Eeeeeeric Bleeeeeeedsoooooooe! " Crickets chirping.

LOL. Does anyone else think we would've done more this off season if Bledsoe signed early? We talked a lot about using his bird rights to go over the cap and he basically f-ed that up for us. If I were the Suns management I would be pretty annoyed Bledsoe messed up our offseason.

[gaspar]

The stretch ability was huge. Markieff started playing better when we stopped shooting threes and took advantage of the mid range. We will miss Frye.

I think it mattered but people are overstating it's impact/difficulty to replace. We added another capable stretch player in Tolliver. Truth is if Frye was that valued to the team then we would've matched the offer and kept him here. We have a ton of cap space yet still let him walk. Why? Because the team doesn't value his skills to that great an extent, or else thinks he's replaceable with a guy like Tolliver. I just don't think the world is falling to the extent some are who claim we will be lucky to win 40 games. We have the best back court in the entire league.

Exactly. Last season Frye had 2 big shooting slumps from three, at the start and at the end of the season and it had basically no impact on the Suns record. Actually, we were slightly better when Frye was bricking his threes.

first 8 games - Frye from three: 6/27 (.222), Suns record: 5-3 (.625)
middle 56 games - Frye from three: 131/320 (.409), Suns record: 31-25 (.553)
last 18 games - Frye from three: 23/85 (.270), Suns record: 12-6 (.667)

Frye was valuable for the Suns, but he's not irreplaceable.

[Puff]

Marcus Banks PG 6-2 200
Leandro Barbosa SG 6-3176
Raja Bell SG 6-5 204
Boris Diaw PF 6-8 215
Gordan Giricek SG 6-6 210
Grant Hill SF 6-8 225
Linton Johnson PF 6-8 205
Shawn Marion PF 6-7 220
Sean Marks C 6-10 250
Steve Nash PG 6-3 195
Shaquille O'Neal C 7-1 325
Eric Piatkowski SF 6-7 215
Brian Skinner C 6-9 255
Amar'e Stoudemire C 6-10
D.J. Strawberry SG 6-5 201
Alando Tucker SF 6-6 205

The above is the list of players MDA had at his disposal in his last season as head coach. He basically got run out of town because he could not coach defense.

MDA's Top 7:

Shaq/Marion (Only one of these guys were on the roster with the other 6 due to the trade)
Amare
Diaw
Hill
Bell
Nash
Barbosa

If you were coach, who would you have played consistent minutes that were not in MDA's top 7?

If you say any of them you are out of your mind.

That might have been the worst bench in the history of the NBA. MDA was forced to play only 7 players due to horrific roster management by Steve Kerr and Robert Sarver. The great Steve Kerr tells MDA he needs a defensive coach at the end of the season. Just plain freaking genius. What MDA needed was better players.

Which one of the guys, not in MDA's top 7,made a contribution to any other NBA franchise after they left the Suns?

If the great Steve Kerr could have added someone like Channing Frye to compliment that group of seven, MDA might just have won a championship.

He did add Channing Frye 2 years later along with an emerging rim protector in Lopez and we became dangerous. We did this without adding a defensive coach. Our defense actually got worse but our offense got better. It was basically the same offense that MDA ran.

I wanted to keep both Amare and Frye after the 2010 season. I think a lot of fans had the same thought. Unfortunately Amare got an offer he could not refuse. We kept Frye and I thought that was a good thing. However we got real stupid by spending Amare's money on Childress and Warrick. Sarver strikes again.

Frye will be missed but not near as much as he was needed when we had a legit opportunity to win the whole thing.

[paulpressey25]

If it comes down to the qualifying off we might as well give him a 6mil 1 year deal. Take away his trade rejecting ability.

This is what the Knicks ended up doing with David Lee in the summer of 2009. They didn't want to ruin their capspace for LeBron the following summer so both sides agreed on a one year $8 million dollar deal versus a straight out QO. Gave Lee a bit more money and UFA the next year when he went to Golden State. But Lee was a lot more realistic on his market value.

[JTrain]

While i do believe that he has a higher ceiling than Jones, i am very very skeptical that he will ever reach that ceiling.

As for Jones...... im just kinda meh! I dont think he is better than Keif. I think he is an average PF in this league. He does play better in a more uptempo system (Houston before D-12), but one thing that i like in my PF's is defense, and Jones is not a good defender. This link hit the nail on the head and will explain:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2118 ... on-rockets

Now if you are too lazy to click the link and read for about 3 minutes, here is the gist of it. This is from game one of the play-offs with Jones guarding Aldridge for the entire game:

[tweet]https://twitter.com/Ballislife/status/459376230119505920[/tweet]

Thats bad. Real bad. Now i know that Aldridge is one of the leagues best PF's and plenty players have trouble defending him, but c'mon, letting Aldridge go off for 46 and 43 points in the 1st two games of the playoffs, on 59 percent shooting over 59 shots. Houston made the adjustment of pulling Jones from the starting line-up and cutting his minutes for the rest of the series in favor of play Asik at PF.

The article's point about Game 1 and 2 vs. Houston is bogus. Luckily for Jones, he wasn't guarding LA on about 60% of his Game 1 points and about 90% on his Game 2 points. Of those 89 total points by LA, 18 were against Jones, and 6 of those were just tip-ins/put-backs.

27 were against Asik.
26 were against Dwight.

He made a few shots against him earlier in game 1. That's about it.

See the video:

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuVYuNPeOlw[/youtube]
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMFV7WFtHm0[/youtube]

I don't know much about Jones' defense, but those games are not evidence of anything. LA was primarily guarded by Asik and Dwight. And even then, it was more a matter of LA being completely on fire and hitting that un-guardable Dirk-like mid-range shot.

Whoever wrote that Bleacher Report article probably didn't even watch the majority of those games (if any). He just figured since TJ is a starting PF, he must have been matched primarily against LA.

[Zelaznyrules]

The stretch ability was huge. Markieff started playing better when we stopped shooting threes and took advantage of the mid range. We will miss Frye.

I think it mattered but people are overstating it's impact/difficulty to replace. We added another capable stretch player in Tolliver. Truth is if Frye was that valued to the team then we would've matched the offer and kept him here. We have a ton of cap space yet still let him walk. Why? Because the team doesn't value his skills to that great an extent, or else thinks he's replaceable with a guy like Tolliver. I just don't think the world is falling to the extent some are who claim we will be lucky to win 40 games. We have the best back court in the entire league.

Exactly. Last season Frye had 2 big shooting slumps from three, at the start and at the end of the season and it had basically no impact on the Suns record. Actually, we were slightly better when Frye was bricking his threes.

first 8 games - Frye from three: 6/27 (.222), Suns record: 5-3 (.625)
middle 56 games - Frye from three: 131/320 (.409), Suns record: 31-25 (.553)
last 18 games - Frye from three: 23/85 (.270), Suns record: 12-6 (.667)

Frye was valuable for the Suns, but he's not irreplaceable.

That's not really fair. No one is trying to say that Frye was the only reason we won. I think most of us would agree that Dragic was our best player for the season and that Bledsoe was right up there for the games he played. Bledsoe was missing for much of that middle stretch and was present for most of the other games. I think it's more relevant to see how we did when Dragic and Bledsoe were healthy and Frye wasn't slumping and then compare it to when Channing was cold. I'm quite sure you'll see much different results.

[TASTIC]

My challenge still stands for NBA historians:

1. Has a player who has never had an 800-point season ever signed a max contract?

2. Has a player who has never had an 800-point season ever signed a contract at or above $12M/season?

3. Have a player/agent and FO ever been documented to be stuck in negotiations $36M (or more) apart?

1 and 2...can't confirm 3



Ok here's a trade idea out of left field...And I fully expect it to not be enough for the Wiz:

Bledsoe re-signed to a max
Mook
MIN '15 pick

for

Beal
Webster (filler)
Dre (filler)

Thoughts?

[blee732]

Ok here's a trade idea out of left field...And I fully expect it to not be enough for the Wiz:

Bledsoe re-signed to a max
Mook
MIN '15 pick

for

Beal
Webster (filler)
Dre (filler)

Thoughts?

Not enough for the Wiz? I feel like Bledsoe for Beal straight up is reasonable talent-wise, though we'd probably have to take on a bad contract as well.

I know some are high on Beal, but he's a bit too OJ Mayo-ish for my tastes.

[JTrain]

Good find. I figured if it had happened it would have to be an elite defensive big. Indeed one of the best defenders in NBA history. And even that contract (Bulls 2007) ended up going down as one of the dumbest in nba history.

Looks like Bledsoe would be #2... again.

[Years90Suns]

I do not understand why the trede was not re-composed to end with Bledsoe going to the Cavs, who also would receive Love, Irving going to the Wolves, the Wiggins coming here.

Didn't Dan Gilbert want to pay Bledsoe max money neither?

Irving can't be traded until January since he signed his new deal. That was never going to be an option. I do think Bledsoe and his D would fit much better there though.

Yes, that's what I thought, then.

[Zelaznyrules]

Ok here's a trade idea out of left field...And I fully expect it to not be enough for the Wiz:

Bledsoe re-signed to a max
Mook
MIN '15 pick

for

Beal
Webster (filler)
Dre (filler)

Thoughts?

I'd much rather just let Bledsoe walk. This deal is hugely imbalanced in Washington's favor even if it is just for Bledsoe. Webster and Dre are negatives and injuries notwithstanding, I'd take Bledsoe over Beal even straight up.

[letsgosuns]

I really laugh when I see people say Frye is a huge loss. I cannot stand him even one bit. His ability to space the floor is the only thing that he offers, nothing else. Him a leader? Okay whatever. You know when the Suns started sucking and missing the playoffs? When Frye became a starter. That is right. When Amare left, they expected Robin Lopez and Frye to step up and the addition of Hakim Warrick to help man the middle. What a joke. Lopez was horrible, Frye cannot play inside even in his dreams, and Warrick was just awful.

When the Suns traded Jason Richardson, Hedo Turkoglu, and Earl Clark in the 2010-2011 season, they were under .500. They were basically the exact same team that year as the year prior that went to the WCF minus Amare and Barbosa, yet they were terrible. So like I said, once Frye became the starter after Amare left, the Suns missed the playoffs EVERY YEAR Frye was on the team. The only year they were good with Frye was when he was a bench player in the 2009- 2010 season.

I really like Frye as a person and his attitude and was very happy for him when returned from his year off, but I think he is a bad basketball player. Once the Suns let him go, I felt it was a successful offseason. That is how much I dislike his game. A 6'11" power forward that does nothing but chuck threes all game long? No thanks. Think about it, Frye's contract is barely more than what the Suns gave Isaiah Thomas. Ryan McDonough knew they would never do anything with Frye on the team. That is why the Suns let him go. Frye is not a championship caliber player. At least I do not think so. I am so happy I never have watch another one of his patented 0-7 or 1-8 three pointer games for the Suns again. McD knows what it takes to win the title from his time with the Celtics. It takes big guys that can play inside. Frye does not fit that mold.

People that say frye isn't a big loss have no concept of advanced analytics or the ability of a stretch big's impact on the true shooting percentages of his teammates.

I never once stated that frye was a leader. What I will state, and the numbers PROVE this, is that Frye made the offense more efficient and prolific. This isn't a debate, it is a fact.

Teams could not ice the pick and roll (for those of you who know what that is) because The mere threat that Frye presented when he was on the floor, made that option non existant for opposing defenses.

Frye's presence opened the lanes for our slashers in ways that allowed them to get to the rim, and free throw line, that was not seen in the year he was gone.

There is a reason Frye started right off the bat for this team.

Having said all that, I would not have signed him for the money Orlando gave him. But that does not change the fact that the loss of his gravity will hurt this offense in a major way.

I love Markieff but I love the Markieff that stopped jacking threes and decided to develop a mean mid range game. Having him chuck from distance is not the answer.

To the haters who think I am an "idiot" for thinking Frye is a loss; learn the game, learn the numbers, learn the system.

I was looking up numbers to post here but then I found this article. It says it as well as I could have put it.

http://www.brightsideofthesun.com/2014/ ... -will-miss

I would never call you an "idiot" for thinking Frye is a loss. I do not know if some other poster said that, but that is not something I would ever say. Everyone looks at things differently and has their own opinions. Even with the things I say on here, it is not like I think I know everything and those who disagree with me do not know what they are talking about. I just enjoy discussing basketball and saying what I think. With that being said, I will give my one reason for not caring about losing Frye, and it is a very basic reason which I mentioned earlier not based on statistics. The Suns have not made the playoffs once since he was the starter, including last year when they defied expectations. Now I am not blaming it all on him. Not at all. But I do think he was a big part of why they missed the playoffs. To me he represents an all offense, no defense player, which is especially bad for a power forward. However, he was not really a good offensive player because he did not play inside. Amare was a horrible defender, but he was arguably the top scoring power forward in the league during his prime. He was a monster. So people put up with his poor defense and inconsistent rebounding. Although I believe his inability to defend and rebound well was one of the reasons the Suns did not win a title with him and Nash.

Now again, the Suns never won the title with Frye so I do not care that he is gone. I know that might sound cryptic, but it is how I feel. People talk so much about the spacing Frye provided and how he helped our guards penetration, but I do not believe having a power forward camp at the three point line and be a bad defender/rebounder is how you the championship. That is just my belief. I am a 100% believer in trying to be the number one defense in the league and acquiring the players to do that. It is just disappointing that the Suns are having such a hard time attracting stars to the team now. Phoenix used to be such a prime destination and now that does not appear to be the case anymore sadly. It is obvious that Jerry Colangelo was the big attraction.

Also, the last time I was really devastated about losing a player was in 2003 when the Diamondbacks traded Curt Schilling. I was heartbroken they got rid of him. I am still unhappy about it to this day. Him and Randy Johnson won the World Series together and I knew the second he was traded it was over. Now that is the kind of loss that truly hurts.

[tgtm_24]

Frye is a huge, huge loss.

I disagree. The natural improvement of the group will more than make up for it.

Huh?!? That not how it works. Good teams always find ways to improve their roster.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

Good teams also are patient. Can't trade for something if it's not there.

[tgtm_24]

The stretch ability was huge. Markieff started playing better when we stopped shooting threes and took advantage of the mid range. We will miss Frye.

Sure he'll be missed, but he's not the difference between being a contender and not. I'll miss his streaky 3 point shooting, I won't miss his aversion to rebounds

[tgtm_24]

Frye is a huge, huge loss.

I disagree. The natural improvement of the group will more than make up for it.

How much improvement is left though? Dragic and green might have peeked so who might take a jump? Markieff? That's the only guy I can think of that can greatly improve and make a legitimate impact.

Plumlee and Len by far have the greatest scope.

[JTrain]

If other teams were convinced Bledsoe was going to come to an agreement with us, they would be much more willing to give us something good for S&T. But since everyone's starting to think he will actually take the QO, nobody wants to give up something significant since they can just make an offer next off-season.

That's what is really hurting us right now.

I would love for ray ray or Traxxe to update us on whether the Suns camp really thinks he will take the QO.

[carey]

If other teams were convinced Bledsoe was going to come to an agreement with us, they would be much more willing to give us something good for S&T. But since everyone's starting to think he will actually take the QO, nobody wants to give up something significant since they can just make an offer next off-season.

That's what is really hurting us right now.

I would love for ray ray or Traxxe to update us on whether the Suns camp really thinks he will take the QO.

Only teams with significant cap space next Summer are thinking that way. Teams that want him now will give up assets to lock him in but it has to be the right fit for all involved.

[JTrain]

If other teams were convinced Bledsoe was going to come to an agreement with us, they would be much more willing to give us something good for S&T. But since everyone's starting to think he will actually take the QO, nobody wants to give up something significant since they can just make an offer next off-season.

That's what is really hurting us right now.

I would love for ray ray or Traxxe to update us on whether the Suns camp really thinks he will take the QO.

Only teams with significant cap space next Summer are thinking that way. Teams that want him now will give up assets to lock him in but it has to be the right fit for all involved.

True, but those teams can still offer us scraps hoping that we will be scared of losing him for nothing and accept.

It appears no one wants him now, though.

Would love to get Jones and Nick Johnson. Just don't see it happening.

Harden, Dwight, Bledsoe. That's quite the cast of characters.

[JTrain]

What's the deal with Okafor? Still not recovered? Surprised he hasn't signed anywhere.