Suns Offseason Thread V: I Am My Brother's Kieffer

[letsgosuns]

Can anyone name one champion in the history of league that won with a two point guard system? I cannot.

Isiah Thomas and Joe Dumars won a couple of championships.

John Stockton and Jeff Hornacek made it to the championship twice but lost to Jordan and his dynasty.

Kevin Johnson and Jeff Hornacek made deep playoff runs

Read this article ... you will see the Suns (fourth winningest team in league history) have won many of their games using a dual PG system. http://www.brightsideofthesun.com/2015/9/19/9351191/Phoenix-Suns-history-of-the-dual-playmaker-system

Isiah Thomas and John Stockton are arguably in the top five of greatest point guards of all time. Kevin Johnson is right there too. Joe Dumars is one of the greatest defensive shooting guards in the history of the league. Jeff Hornacek is one of the greatest shooters of all time. Bledsoe and Knight have a combined zero all-star appearances in nine total years of NBA service time. Idk how you can compare them. But regardless, players like Dumars and Hornacek could be successful off the ball. Neither Bledsoe or Knight have proven they can be successful off the ball.

The main problem is that Bledsoe and Knight are both scoring point guards. They both want the ball all the time. Of those famous tandems you mentioned, there was a clear point guard and the other guard was the clear shooting guard. Knight even said himself that he still wants to be the point guard last year when he was acquired.

Bwgood77 is right though. You cannot win without having the best talent. And unless you are the ultimate homer, you know there is a major gap between Bledsoe and Knight and the rest of the top guards in the league.

[bwgood77]

Can anyone name one champion in the history of league that won with a two point guard system? I cannot.

Isiah Thomas and Joe Dumars won a couple of championships.

John Stockton and Jeff Hornacek made it to the championship twice but lost to Jordan and his dynasty.

Kevin Johnson and Jeff Hornacek made deep playoff runs

Read this article ... you will see the Suns (fourth winningest team in league history) have won many of their games using a dual PG system. http://www.brightsideofthesun.com/2015/9/19/9351191/Phoenix-Suns-history-of-the-dual-playmaker-system

Isiah Thomas and John Stockton are arguably in the top five of greatest point guards of all time. Kevin Johnson is right there too. Joe Dumars is one of the greatest defensive shooting guards in the history of the league. Jeff Hornacek is one of the greatest shooters of all time. Bledsoe and Knight have a combined zero all-star appearances in nine total years of NBA service time. Idk how you can compare them. But regardless, players like Dumars and Hornacek could be successful off the ball. Neither Bledsoe or Knight have proven they can be successful off the ball.

The main problem is that Bledsoe and Knight are both scoring point guards. They both want the ball all the time. Of those famous tandems you mentioned, there was a clear point guard and the other guard was the clear shooting guard. Knight even said himself that he still wants to be the point guard last year when he was acquired.

Bwgood77 is right though. You cannot win without having the best talent. And unless you are the ultimate homer, you know there is a major gap between Bledsoe and Knight and the rest of the top guards in the league.

Yes, you can argue we won't win with these guys, but it's not because of the system. I think we will have PLENTY of play without both of them on the court, and I think the more good ball handlers, the better.

But to come back with saying the people he mentioned are some of the best of all time, that furthers my point about the fact you need talent and that systems don't matter as much as talent.

That is why as much as I don't want Kieff, we NEED to hold out for getting the best talent we can get for him. If we trade him for nothing or cut him, people shouldn't blame a 2 pg system...but the lack of a quality starting PF.

[LukasBMW]

The lineup of Bledsoe/Tucker/Morris/Morris/Wright-OR-Len was a good lineup.

Rebounds, defense, toughness.

And 4 guys who can shoot the 3.

[ImNotMcDiSwear]

The lineup of Bledsoe/Tucker/Morris/Morris/Wright-OR-Len was a good lineup.

Rebounds, defense, toughness.

And 4 guys who can shoot the 3.

That line-up was awful. No movement, no shot creation, and a lot of the same type of player on defense. Gag!

[dmastro32]

Very interested to see if Kief will be at the scrimmage on the 3rd and how the fans react. If him or his jackass twin keep talking I could see some very ugly things happening.

[bigfoot]

The lineup of Bledsoe/Tucker/Morris/Morris/Wright-OR-Len was a good lineup.

Rebounds, defense, toughness.

And 4 guys who can shoot the 3.

As I recall that was the lineup that basically went 1-11 at the end of the season.

[RaisingArizona]

letsgo is ranting early this year.

[jcsunsfan]

letsgo is ranting early this year.

Might as well see them play before playing chicken little.

Wow. LetsgO. Zoloft, Prozac, something please. Before you jump off a building!

[Frank Lee]

Two PGs isn't the problem, its the guys around them... and of course, the talent of the 'two'

Nash / Joe Johnson seemed OK

Bled / Dragic was effective

go back a few years

Westphal / Buse

and two more champ team duos... Gus Johnson/DJ and DJ / Ainge though DJ could be considered a SG in those rolls.


Its a dice roll this yr, but we have added enough new players to allow me to forget the abortional season of last yr.

I think we are much tougher with Chandler, Mirza, and Weems joining up. Don't know much about Lauer. Kind of hope Corey Jefferson makes the roster too. But the first three have a no BS attitude. I look forward to a Bled/Weems/Tucker/Mirza/Chandler line up.

Keif is here... we might as well except it for now. I can't imagine any team who would not first want to see his legal issue play out as well if his prissy-pissy attitude improves. He must be professional to move on. Just STFU and play, then may be he'll be easier to move by Dec. I wouldn't be surprised if McDo has fielded offers on a wait and see basis. Hope so. Look around the league, as I have been saying this... there just are not many teams that need a player like him. The whole concept of a 'value contract' being his best feature may be moot next yr anyway. Teams want to win, and soon will have much more flexibility money wise to do so. Who cares if he only makes 8 mill... it does not change the player's overall contribution.

Eat some Crow Keif. Perhaps even apologize... but at least bite your tongue on the negative spew. Its your only way out. I expect him to be very brief in stating he is coming back to play with/for the players, and not the FO/organization. What else can he say to not implode more? Saying nothing would be fine as well.

Right now, the risk is too high to take on Queen LaKeifa. Nobody wants a train wreck, especially one that is blowing its steam whistle excessively.

[Saberestar]

The lineup of Bledsoe/Tucker/Morris/Morris/Wright-OR-Len was a good lineup.

Rebounds, defense, toughness.

And 4 guys who can shoot the 3.

This lineup lost 9 out of 10 games...just saying.

[bwgood77]

The lineup of Bledsoe/Tucker/Morris/Morris/Wright-OR-Len was a good lineup.

Rebounds, defense, toughness.

And 4 guys who can shoot the 3.

This lineup lost 9 out of 10 games...just saying.

That's a phenomenal lineup. They would have gone 10-0 if Hornacek wasn't such a terrible coach.

[Cutter]

The lineup of Bledsoe/Tucker/Morris/Morris/Wright-OR-Len was a good lineup.

Rebounds, defense, toughness.

And 4 guys who can shoot the 3.

This lineup lost 9 out of 10 games...just saying.

That's a phenomenal lineup. They would have gone 10-0 if Hornacek wasn't such a terrible coach.

Green font?

[bwgood77]

This lineup lost 9 out of 10 games...just saying.

That's a phenomenal lineup. They would have gone 10-0 if Hornacek wasn't such a terrible coach.

Green font?

Yes

[NavLDO]

Also unlike other stretch 4s (except Ibaka and D.Green) Len has a really good defense which is a very big advantage to have when you are playing with stretch 4. So Len being stretch would be very beneficial.

Can Len defend the pick and roll and pick up the ball handler before switching back? His wingspan helps because he can also play the passing lane and cut off the angle, but is he laterally quick enough?

If not he will get burned many times and probably foul the ball handler in the pick and roll 15 times a game


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

Yep this is my issue with Len as a stretch 4. Ibaka, Green and even Frye had great lateral quickness. Frye was an adequate defender despite regularly having a strength disadvantage because he's got very quick feet for a 6'11 guy allowing him to react and put himself in a more favourable defensive position when his man makes a move. His PnR defense was good because he can switch out and can recover fairly well when he gets taken off the dribble.

Len on the other hand is a just HUGE. He doesn't have very quick feet but he's so big, strong and long that he can play great post players like Z-Bo straight up. But put him in the PnR and I don't think he can defend it regularly.

Did a quick search on 'alex len lateral mobility', and found his name quite a bit, in a good sense, like his profile from NBA DraftNet:

'Mobility should make him a good pick-and-roll defender in time ...' AND '...Moves well laterally and retreats on balance.'

I'm not saying he's he 'ideal' stretch-type player. And I don't think he necessarily has to shoot a ton of threes. My point, a few pages back, was that Len, if he truly has range beyond 10 ft, he could play some minutes along side Chandler, is all--like 8-10 minutes.

Not every 4 is a 'stretch 4', right? I don't think Len NEEDS to be a 'stretch'...just a '4', at times, and again, if his pre-draft assessments are true, he should have the mobility to hang with some 4s for a few minutes a game...if it isn't working, pull him back. That's on Horny to decide.

[NavLDO]

Markieff is spitting all over the Suns organization. Bad mouths the organization in the media. Refuses to show up to play with his teammates and is working out at GCU with Dan Majerle instead. The saddest part is that the Suns have taken it. They keep saying we want him back so much and he will get over it. It is embarrassing. The organization looks like a laughingstock right now. I bet Markieff could say whatever he wants and they will still welcome him with open arms. It is like they have no backbone. I will lose all the respect I ever had for Sarver, McDonough, and Hornacek if they do not get Markieff off the team. Talk about being weak. This is the most pathetic situation in the history of the Suns.

Good grief. They have to respond like children to a player that is acting like at child in order to not be a laughingstock? Wht are they supposed to do? Go Gambo on him and rip him up publicly or trade him away for peanuts?

Didn't they do that to Dragic? And for the record, Dragic said WAAAAAAAAAY less than these Morris idiots have said about this team.

For the record, I think the Suns are handling this situation fine but I just found the bolded interesting because you made it seem as if the Suns have never done that or something.

I believe, though, that those comments were made AFTER Goran was gone, not before. I think it's smart for the FO to 'hold their tongue' for now. After he's gone? Sure, defend the organization then, but to say anything inflammatory now would just spark more blathering from Morris, and hence, continuing to lower his value. So I agree with the 2nd part of your statement--they are handling the situation just fine.

[Cutter]

Can Len defend the pick and roll and pick up the ball handler before switching back? His wingspan helps because he can also play the passing lane and cut off the angle, but is he laterally quick enough?

If not he will get burned many times and probably foul the ball handler in the pick and roll 15 times a game


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

Yep this is my issue with Len as a stretch 4. Ibaka, Green and even Frye had great lateral quickness. Frye was an adequate defender despite regularly having a strength disadvantage because he's got very quick feet for a 6'11 guy allowing him to react and put himself in a more favourable defensive position when his man makes a move. His PnR defense was good because he can switch out and can recover fairly well when he gets taken off the dribble.

Len on the other hand is a just HUGE. He doesn't have very quick feet but he's so big, strong and long that he can play great post players like Z-Bo straight up. But put him in the PnR and I don't think he can defend it regularly.

Did a quick search on 'alex len lateral mobility', and found his name quite a bit, in a good sense, like his profile from NBA DraftNet:

'Mobility should make him a good pick-and-roll defender in time ...' AND '...Moves well laterally and retreats on balance.'

I'm not saying he's he 'ideal' stretch-type player. And I don't think he necessarily has to shoot a ton of threes. My point, a few pages back, was that Len, if he truly has range beyond 10 ft, he could play some minutes along side Chandler, is all--like 8-10 minutes.

Not every 4 is a 'stretch 4', right? I don' think Len NEEDS to be a 'stretch'...just a '4', at times, and again, if his pre-draft assessments are true, he should hav the mobility to hang with some 4s for a few minutes a game...if it isn't working, pull him back. That's on Horny to decide.

Nice post. I approve of this message.

[lilfishi22]

Yep this is my issue with Len as a stretch 4. Ibaka, Green and even Frye had great lateral quickness. Frye was an adequate defender despite regularly having a strength disadvantage because he's got very quick feet for a 6'11 guy allowing him to react and put himself in a more favourable defensive position when his man makes a move. His PnR defense was good because he can switch out and can recover fairly well when he gets taken off the dribble.

Len on the other hand is a just HUGE. He doesn't have very quick feet but he's so big, strong and long that he can play great post players like Z-Bo straight up. But put him in the PnR and I don't think he can defend it regularly.

Did a quick search on 'alex len lateral mobility', and found his name quite a bit, in a good sense, like his profile from NBA DraftNet:

'Mobility should make him a good pick-and-roll defender in time ...' AND '...Moves well laterally and retreats on balance.'

I'm not saying he's he 'ideal' stretch-type player. And I don't think he necessarily has to shoot a ton of threes. My point, a few pages back, was that Len, if he truly has range beyond 10 ft, he could play some minutes along side Chandler, is all--like 8-10 minutes.

Not every 4 is a 'stretch 4', right? I don' think Len NEEDS to be a 'stretch'...just a '4', at times, and again, if his pre-draft assessments are true, he should hav the mobility to hang with some 4s for a few minutes a game...if it isn't working, pull him back. That's on Horny to decide.

Nice post. I approve of this message.

I've seen him put in the PnR and I don't think he looks very good defending it. Perhaps it's inexperience and speed of the game.

My thing is I want him to concentrate on being a C and not try to expand his game to shooting the 3 which I don't think is necessary for him to be successful in the NBA. Frye needed the 3 to see real success but I don't think Len needs it. I'd much rather he work on his shot blocking and post offense.

[NavLDO]

I do not believe in the two point guard system. I see no way it can work. Logically it makes no sense. Can anyone name one champion in the history of league that won with a two point guard system? I cannot. Why Hornacek implements it, I will never know. Hornacek was an excellent player but his coaching leaves more than a lot to be desired. And Idk whose idea it is to have the dual point guard lineup, Hornacek or McDonough, but either way it is an awful idea moving forward. Plus, the three point guard lineup from last year is arguably the dumbest idea in the history of the league. Why not put three centers out there. It was beyond stupid. Last season was wasted for basically an experiment by the coaching staff.

Anyway, I have zero confidence in this organization now. I have lost it completely. Maybe Dragic was right. How can anyone trust this organization anymore. They kiss Markieff's ass while he badmouths them. They keep on signing more and more players and people scratch their heads at the signings. There is constant roster turnover every year dating back to the past several years. What is the direction of the team? Stay mediocre until a disgruntled star becomes available? Is that seriously what McDonough and co. are banking on?

I am calling right now, if the team does not get rid of Markieff immediately, the season is over before it begins. Most fans, (not some fans on here), including myself, hate him and want him gone at all costs. To hell with his game. That guy is going to happily destroy the season and McDonough and the rest of the staff appear willing to let it happen. The entire situation is insane. I have never been less excited for a Suns season in my life.

Absolutely hilarious. Boy, you and FrankLo are two peas in a pod. What don't you understand about building a team? He inherited a 25-57 team, and after two seasons with lots of player movement, he's trying to find the 'right mix'. It's not as if he spent 5 years trying this and that and has gotten nowhere. I'll 'beat that drum' one more time--it's been 2 seasons, and again, it was a 25-57 team full of mis-matched pieces. For comparison...

Gentry inherited a 28-23 team in 2009...
D'Antoni inherited a team that was 44-38 the year before he took over, which at hat point, we were 8-13. Then he got Nash before the start of the next season, and the rest is history.
Skiles took over a 13-7 team in 1999, the year prior they were 27-23
Ainge took over an 0-8 squad, but they were a .500 team the year prior

Lance Blanks--took over a 54-28 team from the year before
Steve Kerr--took over a 61-21 team from the year before

So, I think if Blanks got three years, and Kerr got four years, with both taking over a 'winning' franchise, that McD deserves AT LEAST 3 years to attempt to turn around a 25-57 squad with the likes of Beasley, W. Johnson, Scola, K. Marshall, and Shannon Brown on the team. We had Dragic, Tucker, Frye, Gortat, and Morris as halfway decent players, but not an All-Star in the bunch.

So again, can we give the guy a chance beyond 2 years before we start burning him at the stake? If we finish this season with similar results, and assuming we don't have injuries to key players like Bledsoe, Len, Chandler, and Knight, which cause us to finish near .500, at that point, then yes, I could understand the negativity, but until then, I would suggest we all refrain from the bashing.

[Cutter]

I agree that Len doesn't need to develop a 3 point shot to be successful in the NBA. As a matter of fact, if he develops into a
Tyson-esque type player, meaning excellent defensively and rebounding and average offensively I will be very happy. Len hasn't yet completely proven himself, but I think he is on the right track and developing quite nicely.

Now, if he could just develop that 3........

[NavLDO]

Did a quick search on 'alex len lateral mobility', and found his name quite a bit, in a good sense, like his profile from NBA DraftNet:



I'm not saying he's he 'ideal' stretch-type player. And I don't think he necessarily has to shoot a ton of threes. My point, a few pages back, was that Len, if he truly has range beyond 10 ft, he could play some minutes along side Chandler, is all--like 8-10 minutes.

Not every 4 is a 'stretch 4', right? I don' think Len NEEDS to be a 'stretch'...just a '4', at times, and again, if his pre-draft assessments are true, he should hav the mobility to hang with some 4s for a few minutes a game...if it isn't working, pull him back. That's on Horny to decide.

Nice post. I approve of this message.

I've seen him put in the PnR and I don't think he looks very good defending it. Perhaps it's inexperience and speed of the game.

My thing is I want him to concentrate on being a C and not try to expand his game to shooting the 3 which I don't think is necessary for him to be successful in the NBA. Frye needed the 3 to see real success but I don't think Len needs it. I'd much rather he work on his shot blocking and post offense.

I think you are correct--I'd rather Len work on becoming an Elite Center, than develop a 3pt shot. But if we end up trading Kieff, we may need Len to fill in at times, and getting minutes at the 4, is better than getting no minutes at all, and if we are spending $13M per for Chandler, he needs to be playing a starter role with 28-30 minutes, which Leaves Len just 18-20 minutes a game--I'd rather he get an additional 8-10 minutes playing alongside Chandler is all I'm really saying.