Moderators: bwgood77, lilfishi22, Qwigglez
Scutt wrote:Bogyo wrote:WeNeverLeftAZ wrote:Crickets
****. He has 20 games to salvage this season, get our hopes a bit up again for next season, and save his runner-up place in the ROY voting.
Salvage this season???
sunsbg wrote:Bogyo wrote:
For sure - that was a bit miss-worded sentence by me. Let me just say that I do not see this board getting on players without a reason, and not riding anyones johnson for no reason. Usually good, level headed analysis, by members who like and know basketball enough to follow these Suns for the last 5+ years of terrible basketball. (I ve been a fan since the Barkley trade fwiw).
I was a Barkley fan, before I became a Suns fan. Following the team since the '93 title run.
At that time the NBA was full of though bigs and it was considered a key to winning titles(in case you don't have Jordan on your team). How things have changed. Now a C should be a 3PT shooter and a dribbler, run up and down chasing guards, so I think it's unfair to today's skilled bigs, who are forced to be softies coming into the league.
I think Ayton is somewhere inbetween. He has shown he can work in the post like traditional C, but also shoot the mid-range jumper and stay with wings on D like a modern C. All in all, he will be just fine, once being more involved in the offense, which should help him stay focused and engaged.
Bogyo wrote:sunsbg wrote:Bogyo wrote:
For sure - that was a bit miss-worded sentence by me. Let me just say that I do not see this board getting on players without a reason, and not riding anyones johnson for no reason. Usually good, level headed analysis, by members who like and know basketball enough to follow these Suns for the last 5+ years of terrible basketball. (I ve been a fan since the Barkley trade fwiw).
I was a Barkley fan, before I became a Suns fan. Following the team since the '93 title run.
At that time the NBA was full of though bigs and it was considered a key to winning titles(in case you don't have Jordan on your team). How things have changed. Now a C should be a 3PT shooter and a dribbler, run up and down chasing guards, so I think it's unfair to today's skilled bigs, who are forced to be softies coming into the league.
I think Ayton is somewhere inbetween. He has shown he can work in the post like traditional C, but also shoot the mid-range jumper and stay with wings on D like a modern C. All in all, he will be just fine, once being more involved in the offense, which should help him stay focused and engaged.
Sure he will be. I've said multiple times (even in this thread I believe) that he will be automatic 20-10 guy in the future, and likely multiple time all star. I stand by that. And that is what pisses me off beyond belief, and makes me sad at the same time - he could be so much better if he had better competitivness/work ethic to learn the defense, etc...Now it looks like that he is just happy to be there on his physical traits, get that 20-10, and do not really care about anything else (like Doncic **** on him on the ROY race, or even Trae gunning for the 2nd place), but getting that 2nd contract... I could go on and on...
Here is hoping his D on (notLebron) Lebron wasn't a fluke, and will only be better going forward.
m1chal wrote:One more thing: we cannot forget that kid is 19yo and just got rich and famous. Each of us said (and did) multiple dumb things when we were his age, even without all those millions
lilfishi22 wrote:AtheJ415 wrote:lilfishi22 wrote:Which numbers are we talking about though? I don't think the numbers are "very clear". Trae Young also has massive gravity with his ability to shoot the ball. He hasn't shot it well to start his rookie season but he's VERY respectable now and being a ball handler who is also a triple threat (much more so than Ayton who's really a double threat). Trae doesn't have the extended period of excellence or highlight reel of Luka but he's arguably a better rookie since the start of the 2019 than Luka.
Pre-2019
Player Impact Estimate
Ayton: 15.2 (#1 among rookies)
Trae: 9.6 (#7 among rookies)
Luka: 13.3 (#2 among rookies)
Net rating
Ayton: -7.3
Trae: -9.7
Luka: -0.1
Offensive rating
Ayton: 104.0
Trae: 100.9
Luka: 107.3
Defensive rating
Ayton: 111.2
Trae: 110.6
Luka: 107.4
True Shooting %
Ayton: 62.7
Trae: 49.6
Luka: 56.9
Post-New year
Player Impact Estimate
Ayton: 12.6 (-2.6 , #5 among rookies)
Trae: 12.7 (+3.1, #4 among rookies)
Luka: 17.1 (+3.8, #1 among rookies)
Net rating
Ayton: -12.6 (-5.3)
Trae: -4.0 (+5.7)
Luka: -2.0 (-1.9)
Offensive rating
Ayton: 101.6 (-2.4)
Trae: 111.7 (+10.8)
Luka: 106.1 (-1.2)
Defensive rating
Ayton: 114.2 (-3.0)
Trae: 115.8 (-5.2)
Luka: 108.2 (-0.8)
True Shooting %
Ayton: 57.8 (-4.9)
Trae: 57.1 (+7.5)
Luka: 54.7 (-2.2)
Ayton might have more upside because of his physical size, athleticism and arguably having been behind the curve in terms of his basketball development but we can't be talking about his upside as if Luka has little. Also when you say Ayton has the highest potential in the draft, you ARE talking opinion.
Who the hell has ever said Luka has"little" upside at any point. And yes, Ayton is #2. If you wanted to look at just post new year's #s, then okay, but the season started before that, so I don't see much logic in cutting it in half and acting like that somehow supports an argument regarding their play for the full year. Also, using DR and OR isn't apples to apples here when the Suns are the worst team of the group.
Dude, you were the one highlighting Ayton's last two month's (ie same parameters as the tweet) defensive improvement and all I did was highlight Young's last two month's offensive improvement. So if we're talking about recent improvements then Young is the #2 and arguably #1 rookie in the league. I ONLY commented on Young's recent improvement and I've always acknowledged Young wasn't very good to start off as we all did regarding Ayton's defense. But if the logic is that you CAN'T show improvement which I'm not allowed to because I'm apparently not allowed to consider anything other than an entire year then as far as I'm concerned Ayton is still a terrible defender and you can't use Ayton and Gobert in the same sentence.This isn't being discussed enough. Just to put this in perspective for some who still seem to not be happy with his progress on defense.
70% is like worst in the league bad. That is what Ayton started at.
54-55% is what Gobert does. That's right, the past 2 months he is at Gobert's percentages (though on a few less defended possessions a game). That is a MASSIVE improvement in a very short period of time. He still gets lost a few possessions a game but he is improving in both and that's what you want.
So I'm not allowed to comment on Trae's massive improvement offensively but you're cool to talk about Ayton's near-Gobert level defense over the past 2 months (bit "arbitrary" isn't it?). Also which numbers should we be using?
Bogyo wrote:Scutt wrote:Bogyo wrote:
****. He has 20 games to salvage this season, get our hopes a bit up again for next season, and save his runner-up place in the ROY voting.
Salvage this season???
For himself obviously. I thought this goes without saying.
coughdropstuff wrote:I get as Suns fans, you guys have to support your rookie but...
Its time to seriously consider whether Ayton was a mistake at #1. Sure, Ayton may end up becoming a good player, but Luka should have been the overwhelming consensus #1 pick. The guy just screams generational talent.
sunsbg wrote:coughdropstuff wrote:I get as Suns fans, you guys have to support your rookie but...
Its time to seriously consider whether Ayton was a mistake at #1. Sure, Ayton may end up becoming a good player, but Luka should have been the overwhelming consensus #1 pick. The guy just screams generational talent.
Shoulda woulda coulda ... he WAS NOT the consensus #1 pick. Three teams picked another player, when they could have selected him. There is nothing to consider right now as Luka is the best of them, and nobody will deny it, but it's still possible someone else overtakes him. People were also very high on Tatum, Mitchell and Simmons, not so much lately.
Ayton is a good player NOW.
coughdropstuff wrote:sunsbg wrote:coughdropstuff wrote:I get as Suns fans, you guys have to support your rookie but...
Its time to seriously consider whether Ayton was a mistake at #1. Sure, Ayton may end up becoming a good player, but Luka should have been the overwhelming consensus #1 pick. The guy just screams generational talent.
Shoulda woulda coulda ... he WAS NOT the consensus #1 pick. Three teams picked another player, when they could have selected him. There is nothing to consider right now as Luka is the best of them, and nobody will deny it, but it's still possible someone else overtakes him. People were also very high on Tatum, Mitchell and Simmons, not so much lately.
Ayton is a good player NOW.
Can you read? Here, Ill put it in caps for you.
"SHOULD HAVE BEEN THE OVERWHELMING CONSENSUS #1 PICK"
Obviously he wasnt. Also, you cant count either it seems. 2 teams picked another player.
coughdropstuff wrote:Can you read? Here, Ill put it in caps for you.
"SHOULD HAVE BEEN THE OVERWHELMING CONSENSUS #1 PICK"
Obviously he wasnt. Also, you cant count either it seems. 2 teams picked another player.
sunsbg wrote:coughdropstuff wrote:sunsbg wrote:
Shoulda woulda coulda ... he WAS NOT the consensus #1 pick. Three teams picked another player, when they could have selected him. There is nothing to consider right now as Luka is the best of them, and nobody will deny it, but it's still possible someone else overtakes him. People were also very high on Tatum, Mitchell and Simmons, not so much lately.
Ayton is a good player NOW.
Can you read? Here, Ill put it in caps for you.
"SHOULD HAVE BEEN THE OVERWHELMING CONSENSUS #1 PICK"
Obviously he wasnt. Also, you cant count either it seems. 2 teams picked another player.
Pretty sure I'm better educated than you. At least your troll-level posts don't suggest anything else.
coughdropstuff wrote:sunsbg wrote:coughdropstuff wrote:Can you read? Here, Ill put it in caps for you.
"SHOULD HAVE BEEN THE OVERWHELMING CONSENSUS #1 PICK"
Obviously he wasnt. Also, you cant count either it seems. 2 teams picked another player.
Pretty sure I'm better educated than you. At least your troll-level posts don't suggest anything else.
LOL, jesus you're insecure as hell, bringing up **** like that.
Who brings up stupid **** like that within an internet forum site? How terrible is your life?
But since you brought it up:
I got a 3.9 GPA in HS, perfect score on SAT/ACT, and attend a top university.
I 100% guarantee you are not better educated than me.
Jesus you're actually pathetic.
, who is now insecure 
You just proved it.sunsbg wrote:coughdropstuff wrote:sunsbg wrote:
Pretty sure I'm better educated than you. At least your troll-level posts don't suggest anything else.
LOL, jesus you're insecure as hell, bringing up **** like that.
Who brings up stupid **** like that within an internet forum site? How terrible is your life?
But since you brought it up:
I got a 3.9 GPA in HS, perfect score on SAT/ACT, and attend a top university.
I 100% guarantee you are not better educated than me.
Jesus you're actually pathetic.
Did I start calling you stupid stuff like can't read, can't count ? Educated doesn't mean intelligent btw
One should do better than troll on another team's message board, even with an average intelligence .
P.S. Moderators, please feel free to delete the last few troll posts by me and this guy. Sorry for the inconvenience caused!
coughdropstuff wrote:I get as Suns fans, you guys have to support your rookie but...
Its time to seriously consider whether Ayton was a mistake at #1. Sure, Ayton may end up becoming a good player, but Luka should have been the overwhelming consensus #1 pick. The guy just screams generational talent.
coughdropstuff wrote:I get as Suns fans, you guys have to support your rookie but...
Its time to seriously consider whether Ayton was a mistake at #1. Sure, Ayton may end up becoming a good player, but Luka should have been the overwhelming consensus #1 pick. The guy just screams generational talent.
sunsbg wrote:Bogyo wrote:sunsbg wrote:
I was a Barkley fan, before I became a Suns fan. Following the team since the '93 title run.
At that time the NBA was full of though bigs and it was considered a key to winning titles(in case you don't have Jordan on your team). How things have changed. Now a C should be a 3PT shooter and a dribbler, run up and down chasing guards, so I think it's unfair to today's skilled bigs, who are forced to be softies coming into the league.
I think Ayton is somewhere inbetween. He has shown he can work in the post like traditional C, but also shoot the mid-range jumper and stay with wings on D like a modern C. All in all, he will be just fine, once being more involved in the offense, which should help him stay focused and engaged.
Sure he will be. I've said multiple times (even in this thread I believe) that he will be automatic 20-10 guy in the future, and likely multiple time all star. I stand by that. And that is what pisses me off beyond belief, and makes me sad at the same time - he could be so much better if he had better competitivness/work ethic to learn the defense, etc...Now it looks like that he is just happy to be there on his physical traits, get that 20-10, and do not really care about anything else (like Doncic **** on him on the ROY race, or even Trae gunning for the 2nd place), but getting that 2nd contract... I could go on and on...
Here is hoping his D on (notLebron) Lebron wasn't a fluke, and will only be better going forward.
If you are pissed off so much than just accept Ayton is another Aldridge. Personally I never bought into the DR comparisons. You can still build a good team around such player, just need the right coach and system. Then you may even get positively surprised in the future lowering your expectations now. There is nothing he can do in the ROY race being like the 3rd option on the Suns, while the other two guys are 1st option on their teams. About the 2nd contract stuff, yeah, he has said dumb things, but there is also the recent quote from Mikal that Deandre loves the game and has a good work ethic.
ImNotMcDiSwear wrote:coughdropstuff wrote:I get as Suns fans, you guys have to support your rookie but...
Its time to seriously consider whether Ayton was a mistake at #1. Sure, Ayton may end up becoming a good player, but Luka should have been the overwhelming consensus #1 pick. The guy just screams generational talent.
Sorry, but it's clear you haven't been reading the board. We were considering whether selecting Ayton #1 would be a mistake before the draft, many of us called it a mistake at the time (not I) and a majority have for a while now considered it a mistake.
I'm on the fence myself, because Deandre just ate alive the first team to try going after him with a small ball lineup. Knocking down that little mid-ranger with ease. Just buckets and rebounds and passing out of double teams. That Lakers team played the Bucks pretty close just a night before, and it featured Lebron James at the 5 - whom Deandre guarded quite competently, by the way. Pretty cool.
I think some of this board's recent knocks on Luka's defense are overstated, however. As were their knocks on Deandre earlier. Sure, Deandre hasn't defended the paint well overall this season, but he's consistently shown the ability to guard even the best players on the perimeter. It's pretty insane, actually. Similarly, what's been overlooked is Luka's ability to defend the guard positions. He's big and long and he can stay with guys on the perimeter. In a way, their strengths are really in line with the way the game is evolving.
But anyways, this board's a thoughtful one, so yeah, we've been "seriously considering" quite a lot of things around here.
