Alex Len

[bwgood77]

Len is going to be the highest paid player on the team. It is what it is, unless we make a big trade or sign a top tier free agent. Likely around 15. You have to keep your own free agents if they are at least decent, especially if they are young because otherwise you are forced to overpay older mediocre centers like many of the teams did this past offseason. Unless he is absolutely terrible down the stretch this year, I value his rebounding and blocks. He shouldn't handle the ball much, but he's one of the better centers we've drafted in a long time and will continue to improve imo.

[jcsunsfan]

Len is going to be the highest paid player on the team. It is what it is, unless we make a big trade or sign a top tier free agent. Likely around 15. You have to keep your own free agents if they are at least decent, especially if they are young because otherwise you are forced to overpay older mediocre centers like many of the teams did this past offseason. Unless he is absolutely terrible down the stretch this year, I value his rebounding and blocks. He shouldn't handle the ball much, but he's one of the better centers we've drafted in a long time and will continue to improve imo.

I am convinced we have to keep Len. He has to correct some mental errors and he could be a significant force inside. He had more than 4 blocks in this game, that's just what was recorded. Early, even KAT wanted no part of Len in the middle.

[WeekapaugGroove]

Len is going to be the highest paid player on the team. It is what it is, unless we make a big trade or sign a top tier free agent. Likely around 15. You have to keep your own free agents if they are at least decent, especially if they are young because otherwise you are forced to overpay older mediocre centers like many of the teams did this past offseason. Unless he is absolutely terrible down the stretch this year, I value his rebounding and blocks. He shouldn't handle the ball much, but he's one of the better centers we've drafted in a long time and will continue to improve imo.

I am convinced we have to keep Len. He has to correct some mental errors and he could be a significant force inside. He had more than 4 blocks in this game, that's just what was recorded. Early, even KAT wanted no part of Len in the middle.

He definitely had a 5th block taken away by a really sketchy foul call in the second half. Looked live and on the jumbotron that he got it clean with both hands. As i said before he was solid defensively and he rebounded reasonably well. He does need to pick his spots with the tap out offensive rebounds, he seems to get a little too reliant on those at times. Overall i think he can be a good garbage man big. Just focus on d, rebounds, and setting good screens. Other than put backs and the occasional touch as the roll man on screens they should never run offense for him.. but thats ok as long as you surround him with scorers.

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[carey]

In Nov he's shooting 55% and slashing 9.7/9.3/1.7 Blks in 24.5 MPG. Please find me 10...shoot, 8 starting Centers that are putting up better per36 numbers in November.

Don't know how to search for just per 36 in November. How about past 10 game stats? I did assists because I thought that'd be interesting. I probably should have done blocks to. Because Gobert's 3 blocks per game are pretty amazing but the rest of his numbers are basically Len level (except for FG% which of course kicks Len's butt too.)

Al Horford 16.8/8/5.5 on 51% in 34mpg
Brook Lopez 20/4.7/2 on 48% in 28mpg
Joel Embiid 18/8/1.3 on 49% in 24mpg
Jonas Valanciunas 14.6/9.6/1 on 60% in 29mpg
Robin Lopez 10.7/8.7/1 on 45% in 31mpg
Drummond 15.8/13.3/1.1 on 56% in 30mpg
Myles Turner 13/7.7/.8 on 52% in 30mpg
Dwight Howard 12.1/13.1/1 on 59% in 28mpg
Cody Zeller 12.7/5.3/1 on 66% in 25mpg
Hassaan Whiteside 15.4/15.6/.5 on 50% in 33mpg
Nikola Vucevic 11.3/11.3/2.5 on 41% in 28mpg
Marcin Gortat 11.5/12.4/2 on 60% in 35mpg
DeAndre Jordan 12.8/11.9/.7 on 69% in 31mpg
DeMarcus Cousins 27.7/10.2/on 45% in 34mpg
Clint Capela 13.8/9.1/1.1 on 61% in 28mpg
Marc Gasol 17.2/4.4/4.1 on 45% in 33mpg
Pau Gasol 12.6/7/2 on 50% in 27mpg
KAT 20/10/2.3 on 48% in 34mpg
Enes Kanter 11.5/5/1 on 53% in 19mpg
Steven Adams 10.4/7.4/.6 on 52% in 31mpg
Mason Plumlee 9.6/8.1/5.1 on 52% in 27mpg
Rudy Gobert 11/10.9/1 on 62% in 30mpg

Some thoughts after looking at the numbers of 22 guys over the last 10 games. Who are the guys he's for sure playing better than on this list? Robin Lopez, Kanter, Vucevic, and probably Adams and Zeller, who isn't rebounding well but is shooting really well. I'm impressed by the assist numbers of Mason Plumlee and Al Horford. We knew the Gasol brothers could both pass. Anyway, not too hard to come up with 8 guys playing better than Alex Len at Center. Maybe I'll fill in blocks later when I'm bored.

[dremill24]

And again...

[NavLDO]

In Nov he's shooting 55% and slashing 9.7/9.3/1.7 Blks in 24.5 MPG. Please find me 10...shoot, 8 starting Centers that are putting up better per36 numbers in November.

Don't know how to search for just per 36 in November. How about past 10 game stats? I did assists because I thought that'd be interesting. I probably should have done blocks to. Because Gobert's 3 blocks per game are pretty amazing but the rest of his numbers are basically Len level (except for FG% which of course kicks Len's butt too.)

Al Horford 16.8/8/5.5 on 51% in 34mpg -- 1.3 less TRB, 4% worse shooting
Brook Lopez 20/4.7/2 on 48% in 28mpg
Joel Embiid 18/8/1.3 on 49% in 24mpg
Jonas Valanciunas 14.6/9.6/1 on 60% in 29mpg
Robin Lopez 10.7/8.7/1 on 45% in 31mpg
Drummond 15.8/13.3/1.1 on 56% in 30mpg
Myles Turner 13/7.7/.8 on 52% in 30mpg
Dwight Howard 12.1/13.1/1 on 59% in 28mpg
Cody Zeller 12.7/5.3/1 on 66% in 25mpg
Hassaan Whiteside 15.4/15.6/.5 on 50% in 33mpg
Nikola Vucevic 11.3/11.3/2.5 on 41% in 28mpg
Marcin Gortat 11.5/12.4/2 on 60% in 35mpg
DeAndre Jordan 12.8/11.9/.7 on 69% in 31mpg
DeMarcus Cousins 27.7/10.2/on 45% in 34mpg
Clint Capela 13.8/9.1/1.1 on 61% in 28mpg
Marc Gasol 17.2/4.4/4.1 on 45% in 33mpg
Pau Gasol 12.6/7/2 on 50% in 27mpgb
KAT 20/10/2.3 on 48% in 34mpg
Enes Kanter 11.5/5/1 on 53% in 19mpg
Steven Adams 10.4/7.4/.6 on 52% in 31mpg
Mason Plumlee 9.6/8.1/5.1 on 52% in 27mpg
Rudy Gobert 11/10.9/1 on 62% in 30mpg

Some thoughts after looking at the numbers of 22 guys over the last 10 games. Who are the guys he's for sure playing better than on this list? Robin Lopez, Kanter, Vucevic, and probably Adams and Zeller, who isn't rebounding well but is shooting really well. I'm impressed by the assist numbers of Mason Plumlee and Al Horford. We knew the Gasol brothers could both pass. Anyway, not too hard to come up with 8 guys playing better than Alex Len at Center. Maybe I'll fill in blocks later when I'm bored.

So, remember, Alex is playing only 24.5 MPG, so those are straight #s for him and the others, I presume, right?

Here's Alex's per36, roughly, assuming numbers are 2/3, as 24 is 2/3 of 36, so I'll round down where able:
14.4/14/2.6

So, right away, Horford plays 34 minutes and rebounds 6 less, but only shoots 2.4 more, though Blks 3 more: 17.4/8.1/5.6
Brook's, about 25% more: 25/6.3/2.6
Embiid's should be: 27/12/1.9
Valanciunas should be: 19.4/12.8/1.3
RoLo : 12/10.4/1.2
Drummond: 18.6/15.5/1.3/
M. Turner: 15.5/9.3/1
Howard: 16/17/1.5
C. Zeller: 19/8/1.5
Whiteside: 16/16/.6
Vucevic: 15/15/3.3
Gortat: 11.5/12.4/2
De Jordan: 15.2/14.2/1
Cousins: 28.7/10.1/1.5 (after looking it up)
Capela: 18.4/12.2/1.5
M. Gasol: 18/4.6/4.2
P. Gasol: 16.8/9.3/2.6
KAT: 21/11/2.5
Kanter: 22/10/2
M. Plumlee: 12.8/10.8/7.8
R. Gobert: 13.2/13.1/1.2

So, I did the numbers you gave, and I don't know which are assts and which are Blks, so hard to compare exactly, but I still would affirm that Len is top 8-10 in those numbers.

Only 5 had more TRBs
Only 1 or 2 had more Blks
Only 8 had higher Shooting %s
16 had higher points

So I still stand by my assertion that in the month of Nov, you'd be hard pressed to find 8-10 Starting Centers playing better than he is on a whole. He's obviously more important on the Defensive end than he is on Offense, but that doesn't diminish his worth, IMO. And when he gets his chances, he's making the most of those chances this year, more so than last with higher % shooting.

[NavLDO]

And again...

I know. Can you believe it? Same 2-3 Len disparagers in another game thread coming out to voice their hatred...again.

[bwgood77]

And again...

I know. Can you believe it? Same 2-3 Len disparagers in another game thread coming out to voice their hatred...again.

I ran some #s earlier but it was tough with all your stipulations, and per 36 includes more players than you might like, but since you don't consider that playing fewer minutes is for a reason, I'll use it.

19th in REB http://stats.nba.com/league/player/#!/?CF=TEAM_ABBREVIATION*E*%7CTEAM_ABBREVIATION*E*&Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PerMode=Per36&PlayerPosition=C&sort=REB&dir=1

21st in BLK http://stats.nba.com/league/player/#!/?CF=TEAM_ABBREVIATION*E*%7CTEAM_ABBREVIATION*E*&Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PerMode=Per36&PlayerPosition=C&sort=BLK&dir=1

47th in points http://stats.nba.com/league/player/#!/?CF=TEAM_ABBREVIATION*E*%7CTEAM_ABBREVIATION*E*&Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PerMode=Per36&PlayerPosition=C&sort=PTS&dir=1

51st in FG% http://stats.nba.com/league/player/#!/?CF=TEAM_ABBREVIATION*E*%7CTEAM_ABBREVIATION*E*&Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PerMode=Per36&PlayerPosition=C&sort=FG_PCT&dir=1

Per 36 isn't always the best though when a guy fouls a lot and has more energy than others because he rests more. You have such rose colored glasses on that you act like 7 turnovers is ok. It's not. He did not have a good game. If you cherry pick "lets ignore that stat", "lets only count games in November", "lets use per 36", "lets not look at fg%", you can make anyone look good.

I don't know what your obsession with Len is. Especially since you don't watch him. We have a lot of guys that turn it over a lot, but most of the other guys have much higher usage rates, and hold on to the ball and dribble a lot (not that that's good either).

I think it's safe to say everyone knows how you feel about Len now.

[NavLDO]

And again...

I know. Can you believe it? Same 2-3 Len disparagers in another game thread coming out to voice their hatred...again.

I ran some #s earlier but it was tough with all your stipulations, and per 36 includes more players than you might like, but since you don't consider that playing fewer minutes is for a reason, I'll use it.

19th in REB http://stats.nba.com/league/player/#!/?CF=TEAM_ABBREVIATION*E*%7CTEAM_ABBREVIATION*E*&Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PerMode=Per36&PlayerPosition=C&sort=REB&dir=1

21st in BLK http://stats.nba.com/league/player/#!/?CF=TEAM_ABBREVIATION*E*%7CTEAM_ABBREVIATION*E*&Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PerMode=Per36&PlayerPosition=C&sort=BLK&dir=1

47th in points http://stats.nba.com/league/player/#!/?CF=TEAM_ABBREVIATION*E*%7CTEAM_ABBREVIATION*E*&Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PerMode=Per36&PlayerPosition=C&sort=PTS&dir=1

51st in FG% http://stats.nba.com/league/player/#!/?CF=TEAM_ABBREVIATION*E*%7CTEAM_ABBREVIATION*E*&Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PerMode=Per36&PlayerPosition=C&sort=FG_PCT&dir=1

Per 36 isn't always the best though when a guy fouls a lot and has more energy than others because he rests more. You have such rose colored glasses on that you act like 7 turnovers is ok. It's not. He did not have a good game. If you cherry pick "lets ignore that stat", "lets only count games in November", "lets use per 36", "lets not look at fg%", you can make anyone look good.

I don't know what your obsession with Len is. Especially since you don't watch him. We have a lot of guys that turn it over a lot, but most of the other guys have much higher usage rates, and hold on to the ball and dribble a lot (not that that's good either).

I think it's safe to say everyone knows how you feel about Len now.

When did I say 7 TOVs was OK??? I'll wait...

My point was, and please go back and feel free to re-read what I wrote, was that it was funny that Len was getting hate for 7 TOVs, yet when our PG, the ONE guy on the team that is supposed to know how to handle the ball, gets 7 TOVs...mums the word...

And then, you are adding Centers that are backups that barely play. Your first "list" where Len ranks 19th? Only 7 are considered 'starters', so let's be a little realistic here. I didn't bother with the rest after seeing the ridiculousness of the first...

I was bringing up Nov, because Oct was the beginning of the season, not some abstract month that I just felt like throwing out for the heck of it. He obviously found some sort of 'comfort zone' since then.

And then you act like we all know how I feel about Len?? It was just you a couple days ago that mentioned that you had thought that I had given up more on Len than you have, and were hating on Len more than you.

So which is it, BW? Do I have "Rose Colored" glasses with Len? Or do I post based upon how the player is playing at the time??

So get out of here with that notion that "I think it's safe to say everyone knows how you feel about Len now." How I feel about Len is based upon HOW he is playing and helping this team...OR NOT...it is NOT based upon some notion like others here...once a hater towards him, ALWAYS a hater towards him...

[NavLDO]

And again...

I know. Can you believe it? Same 2-3 Len disparagers in another game thread coming out to voice their hatred...again.

I ran some #s earlier but it was tough with all your stipulations, and per 36 includes more players than you might like, but since you don't consider that playing fewer minutes is for a reason, I'll use it.

19th in REB http://stats.nba.com/league/player/#!/?CF=TEAM_ABBREVIATION*E*%7CTEAM_ABBREVIATION*E*&Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PerMode=Per36&PlayerPosition=C&sort=REB&dir=1

21st in BLK http://stats.nba.com/league/player/#!/?CF=TEAM_ABBREVIATION*E*%7CTEAM_ABBREVIATION*E*&Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PerMode=Per36&PlayerPosition=C&sort=BLK&dir=1

47th in points http://stats.nba.com/league/player/#!/?CF=TEAM_ABBREVIATION*E*%7CTEAM_ABBREVIATION*E*&Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PerMode=Per36&PlayerPosition=C&sort=PTS&dir=1

51st in FG% http://stats.nba.com/league/player/#!/?CF=TEAM_ABBREVIATION*E*%7CTEAM_ABBREVIATION*E*&Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PerMode=Per36&PlayerPosition=C&sort=FG_PCT&dir=1

Per 36 isn't always the best though when a guy fouls a lot and has more energy than others because he rests more. You have such rose colored glasses on that you act like 7 turnovers is ok. It's not. He did not have a good game. If you cherry pick "lets ignore that stat", "lets only count games in November", "lets use per 36", "lets not look at fg%", you can make anyone look good.

I don't know what your obsession with Len is. Especially since you don't watch him. We have a lot of guys that turn it over a lot, but most of the other guys have much higher usage rates, and hold on to the ball and dribble a lot (not that that's good either).

I think it's safe to say everyone knows how you feel about Len now.

And BTW, I did watch most of the last 2 games, now that I have an access, so I did see, what, shocking, others that DO and DID watch, that ALSO posted favorable analyses of Len's play this game that posted through this thread...or did you not see those posts??

Grumpysaddle
jcsunsfan
batsmasher
garrick

So I'm not blindly supporting Len here; others see the same things I'm seeing, now that I can watch tape-delayed. I'm only combatting those posts of those haters on here that make a negative post on Len for every negative play he makes. You can make any player look bad, as well, if you 'cherry pick' and comment on each bad play.

We had a 10 pt friggin' 4th qtr, but somehow, I don't see shnakempooz, diddy, or tragic, comment on Barbosa's 0-6, or Booker's 4-10, or Bledsoe's 7 TOVs, or anyone else...just the same tired complaining about Len, Knight, and Tucker, regardless of if they play well or not, they've pre-decided that they suck and will suck forever, so yeah, I come in to these threads to exhibit some reality into the mix. Heaven forbid I do that, because then I'm labeled as a 'rose colored' glasses guy.

Here's Len's November per36 stats (roughly--not exact):

2 Nov – 21 Min – 34 pts, 11 TRB, 5.5 Blks
4 Nov – 15 Min -- 10 pts, 23 TRB, 0 Blks
6 Nov – 18 Min – 10 pts, 22 TRB, 2 Blks
8 Nov – 17 Min – 8 pts, 18 TRB, 0 Blks
9 Nov – 37 Min – 16 pts, 14 TRB, 1 Blks
12 Nov – 29 Min – 13 pts, 14 TRB, 3 Blks
13 Nov – 18 Min – 18 pts, 12 TRB, 0 Blks
16 Nov – 21 Min – 12 pts, 7 TRB, 2 Blks
18 Nov – 22 Min – 18 pts, 18 TRB, 5 Blks
19 Nov – 25 Min – 13 pts, 11 TRB, 3.5 Blks
21 Nov – 31 Min – 13 pts, 12 TRB, 3.5 Blks
23 Nov – 35 Min – 17 pts, 12 TRB, 2 Blks
25 Nov – 29 Min – 7 pts, 13 TRB, 4.5 Blks

Tot on 24.5 mpg – per36:

14.7pts, 14.2 TRB, 2.5 Blks

So yes, per36 can be skewed, but if you take his 9.7pts, 9.3 TRBs, 1.7 Blks and compare them against a Center that is playing 32 mpg, he's not going to be able to compete with 8 minutes less play per gm, so I'm not TRYING to make him look better, just use a metric that many others in the business use to mitigate this offset in mpg between players. And again, yes, I'm using the most recent month, because Oct was the beginning of the season and he was apparently 'finding his groove', because he hasn't played that poorly since.

So take it or leave it...I don't care, but any one that thinks Len 'sucks', hasn't been watching him, or hasn't been watching other centers not named Cousins, AD, KAT, Embiid, Gobert, (insert other stud). I'm not saying he's an All-Star, just that he's a top 10 Center AS OF LATE...that is all...

[WeekapaugGroove]

Its going to be interesting to see what kind of offer he can get this summer. In a vacuum you would think a young defensive center would get a big offer but then you look around and its hard to see a lot of teams with both money and a need. Plus hell have competition from noel and others on the market.

Sent from my SM-G930V using RealGM mobile app

[bwgood77]

Spoiler:

When did I say 7 TOVs was OK??? I'll wait...

My point was, and please go back and feel free to re-read what I wrote, was that it was funny that Len was getting hate for 7 TOVs, yet when our PG, the ONE guy on the team that is supposed to know how to handle the ball, gets 7 TOVs...mums the word...

And then, you are adding Centers that are backups that barely play. Your first "list" where Len ranks 19th? Only 7 are considered 'starters', so let's be a little realistic here. I didn't bother with the rest after seeing the ridiculousness of the first...

I was bringing up Nov, because Oct was the beginning of the season, not some abstract month that I just felt like throwing out for the heck of it. He obviously found some sort of 'comfort zone' since then.

And then you act like we all know how I feel about Len?? It was just you a couple days ago that mentioned that you had thought that I had given up more on Len than you have, and were hating on Len more than you.

So which is it, BW? Do I have "Rose Colored" glasses with Len? Or do I post based upon how the player is playing at the time??

So get out of here with that notion that "I think it's safe to say everyone knows how you feel about Len now." How I feel about Len is based upon HOW he is playing and helping this team...OR NOT...it is NOT based upon some notion like others here...once a hater towards him, ALWAYS a hater towards him...

Yes, I remember exactly what you said about the turnovers. Mentioned Bledsoe's in the Len conversation.

I knew why you threw out October, because he had a bad start. Other centers might have a really bad 4 game stretch at another time so throwing out games, particularly those, will work to Len's advantage.

Yes, I remember and was surprised you suddenly changed your tone on Len when EVERYONE had gotten down on him, it seemed like after those 4 games though, not during them when you were still defending him. I'm probably the only one who does remember you were down on Len for a very brief period, saying we should maybe trade him or find another center.

So I guess there was that brief time for maybe a week within the last couple of years that you were not so high on Len, so my bad, and maybe there are some here that are unsure of your thoughts on Len. It seems even when he isn't playing well, you don't acknowledge anything he is doing poorly sometimes.

Spoiler:

And BTW, I did watch most of the last 2 games, now that I have an access, so I did see, what, shocking, others that DO and DID watch, that ALSO posted favorable analyses of Len's play this game that posted through this thread...or did you not see those posts??

Grumpysaddle
jcsunsfan
batsmasher
garrick

So I'm not blindly supporting Len here; others see the same things I'm seeing, now that I can watch tape-delayed. I'm only combatting those posts of those haters on here that make a negative post on Len for every negative play he makes. You can make any player look bad, as well, if you 'cherry pick' and comment on each bad play.

We had a 10 pt friggin' 4th qtr, but somehow, I don't see shnakempooz, diddy, or tragic, comment on Barbosa's 0-6, or Booker's 4-10, or Bledsoe's 7 TOVs, or anyone else...just the same tired complaining about Len, Knight, and Tucker, regardless of if they play well or not, they've pre-decided that they suck and will suck forever, so yeah, I come in to these threads to exhibit some reality into the mix. Heaven forbid I do that, because then I'm labeled as a 'rose colored' glasses guy.

Here's Len's November per36 stats (roughly--not exact):

2 Nov – 21 Min – 34 pts, 11 TRB, 5.5 Blks
4 Nov – 15 Min -- 10 pts, 23 TRB, 0 Blks
6 Nov – 18 Min – 10 pts, 22 TRB, 2 Blks
8 Nov – 17 Min – 8 pts, 18 TRB, 0 Blks
9 Nov – 37 Min – 16 pts, 14 TRB, 1 Blks
12 Nov – 29 Min – 13 pts, 14 TRB, 3 Blks
13 Nov – 18 Min – 18 pts, 12 TRB, 0 Blks
16 Nov – 21 Min – 12 pts, 7 TRB, 2 Blks
18 Nov – 22 Min – 18 pts, 18 TRB, 5 Blks
19 Nov – 25 Min – 13 pts, 11 TRB, 3.5 Blks
21 Nov – 31 Min – 13 pts, 12 TRB, 3.5 Blks
23 Nov – 35 Min – 17 pts, 12 TRB, 2 Blks
25 Nov – 29 Min – 7 pts, 13 TRB, 4.5 Blks

Tot on 24.5 mpg – per36:

14.7pts, 14.2 TRB, 2.5 Blks

So yes, per36 can be skewed, but if you take his 9.7pts, 9.3 TRBs, 1.7 Blks and compare them against a Center that is playing 32 mpg, he's not going to be able to compete with 8 minutes less play per gm, so I'm not TRYING to make him look better, just use a metric that many others in the business use to mitigate this offset in mpg between players. And again, yes, I'm using the most recent month, because Oct was the beginning of the season and he was apparently 'finding his groove', because he hasn't played that poorly since.

So take it or leave it...I don't care, but any one that thinks Len 'sucks', hasn't been watching him, or hasn't been watching other centers not named Cousins, AD, KAT, Embiid, Gobert, (insert other stud). I'm not saying he's an All-Star, just that he's a top 10 Center AS OF LATE...that is all...

You don't really have to convince me. I think overall he has been playing pretty well and I said we need to keep him barring a big trade and that he will probably get $15 million a year from us.

I don't know if I'd say he's top 10, but he is a very solid rebounder and a good shot blocker. I wish he could get his fg% up, but for the most part it seems like he is shooting it less, so that's good for now, at least until he can improve his fg%.

[NavLDO]

Spoiler:

When did I say 7 TOVs was OK??? I'll wait...

My point was, and please go back and feel free to re-read what I wrote, was that it was funny that Len was getting hate for 7 TOVs, yet when our PG, the ONE guy on the team that is supposed to know how to handle the ball, gets 7 TOVs...mums the word...

And then, you are adding Centers that are backups that barely play. Your first "list" where Len ranks 19th? Only 7 are considered 'starters', so let's be a little realistic here. I didn't bother with the rest after seeing the ridiculousness of the first...

I was bringing up Nov, because Oct was the beginning of the season, not some abstract month that I just felt like throwing out for the heck of it. He obviously found some sort of 'comfort zone' since then.

And then you act like we all know how I feel about Len?? It was just you a couple days ago that mentioned that you had thought that I had given up more on Len than you have, and were hating on Len more than you.

So which is it, BW? Do I have "Rose Colored" glasses with Len? Or do I post based upon how the player is playing at the time??

So get out of here with that notion that "I think it's safe to say everyone knows how you feel about Len now." How I feel about Len is based upon HOW he is playing and helping this team...OR NOT...it is NOT based upon some notion like others here...once a hater towards him, ALWAYS a hater towards him...

Yes, I remember exactly what you said about the turnovers. Mentioned Bledsoe's in the Len conversation.

I knew why you threw out October, because he had a bad start. Other centers might have a really bad 4 game stretch at another time so throwing out games, particularly those, will work to Len's advantage.

Yes, I remember and was surprised you suddenly changed your tone on Len when EVERYONE had gotten down on him, it seemed like after those 4 games though, not during them when you were still defending him. I'm probably the only one who does remember you were down on Len for a very brief period, saying we should maybe trade him or find another center.

So I guess there was that brief time for maybe a week within the last couple of years that you were not so high on Len, so my bad, and maybe there are some here that are unsure of your thoughts on Len. It seems even when he isn't playing well, you don't acknowledge anything he is doing poorly sometimes.

Spoiler:

And BTW, I did watch most of the last 2 games, now that I have an access, so I did see, what, shocking, others that DO and DID watch, that ALSO posted favorable analyses of Len's play this game that posted through this thread...or did you not see those posts??

Grumpysaddle
jcsunsfan
batsmasher
garrick

So I'm not blindly supporting Len here; others see the same things I'm seeing, now that I can watch tape-delayed. I'm only combatting those posts of those haters on here that make a negative post on Len for every negative play he makes. You can make any player look bad, as well, if you 'cherry pick' and comment on each bad play.

We had a 10 pt friggin' 4th qtr, but somehow, I don't see shnakempooz, diddy, or tragic, comment on Barbosa's 0-6, or Booker's 4-10, or Bledsoe's 7 TOVs, or anyone else...just the same tired complaining about Len, Knight, and Tucker, regardless of if they play well or not, they've pre-decided that they suck and will suck forever, so yeah, I come in to these threads to exhibit some reality into the mix. Heaven forbid I do that, because then I'm labeled as a 'rose colored' glasses guy.

Here's Len's November per36 stats (roughly--not exact):

2 Nov – 21 Min – 34 pts, 11 TRB, 5.5 Blks
4 Nov – 15 Min -- 10 pts, 23 TRB, 0 Blks
6 Nov – 18 Min – 10 pts, 22 TRB, 2 Blks
8 Nov – 17 Min – 8 pts, 18 TRB, 0 Blks
9 Nov – 37 Min – 16 pts, 14 TRB, 1 Blks
12 Nov – 29 Min – 13 pts, 14 TRB, 3 Blks
13 Nov – 18 Min – 18 pts, 12 TRB, 0 Blks
16 Nov – 21 Min – 12 pts, 7 TRB, 2 Blks
18 Nov – 22 Min – 18 pts, 18 TRB, 5 Blks
19 Nov – 25 Min – 13 pts, 11 TRB, 3.5 Blks
21 Nov – 31 Min – 13 pts, 12 TRB, 3.5 Blks
23 Nov – 35 Min – 17 pts, 12 TRB, 2 Blks
25 Nov – 29 Min – 7 pts, 13 TRB, 4.5 Blks

Tot on 24.5 mpg – per36:

14.7pts, 14.2 TRB, 2.5 Blks

So yes, per36 can be skewed, but if you take his 9.7pts, 9.3 TRBs, 1.7 Blks and compare them against a Center that is playing 32 mpg, he's not going to be able to compete with 8 minutes less play per gm, so I'm not TRYING to make him look better, just use a metric that many others in the business use to mitigate this offset in mpg between players. And again, yes, I'm using the most recent month, because Oct was the beginning of the season and he was apparently 'finding his groove', because he hasn't played that poorly since.

So take it or leave it...I don't care, but any one that thinks Len 'sucks', hasn't been watching him, or hasn't been watching other centers not named Cousins, AD, KAT, Embiid, Gobert, (insert other stud). I'm not saying he's an All-Star, just that he's a top 10 Center AS OF LATE...that is all...

You don't really have to convince me. I think overall he has been playing pretty well and I said we need to keep him barring a big trade and that he will probably get $15 million a year from us.

I don't know if I'd say he's top 10, but he is a very solid rebounder and a good shot blocker. I wish he could get his fg% up, but for the most part it seems like he is shooting it less, so that's good for now, at least until he can improve his fg%.

No, it wasn't "about a week" I was down on Len, it was more like a month, when it was clear in pre-season he hadn't improved in the slightest...in fact, regressed to a degree...in preseason...often against scrubs...that's when I stared questioning whether Len was going to be able to be a starter-level Center in this league.

And yes, I still believe he's likely top 10...when comparing him against other Centers THIS MONTH...overall? IDK, it depends upon if he maintains this level of play. If he averages 28-30 mpg, 11/10/1.8 Blks on 55% Shooting and 70% FT% (and NOT 7 TOVs), then yes, I think he'd be a top 10 Center, but due more to his defense, not his offense. There aren't many Centers out there putting up double-digit Rebounds, with an 75/25 split from D-to-O, and nearly 2 Blks in 30 mpg...well, at least there aren't 10, I'd say.

And his fg% IS up...it's only October that's killing him right now. He's shooting .552 in Nov vs .333 in Oct. It's the 4 games in Oct that has him below 50% overall. And heck, take his 1st 4 games in Nov out as well, and he's shooting about 57.5%. Point is, he's getting better, and if given the minutes, like I was suggesting last year, I'm confident, from what I'm seeing this year, he could be, by the end of the season (not his end of season stats, but be putting these kind of games up by end of season) putting up:

30mpg -- 14 Pts, 12 TRB, 2 Blks on 58-60% shooting/80% FT%

I truly believe that. I was looking at advanced stats earlier today of our team, and of the 11 players that have played more than 160 min. this season, only Chandler, Barbosa, Bledsoe, and Len had zero negatives in any category. (And BTW, the ones with * are 'negatives', due to alleviating any confusion with the dashed lines separating the fields.)

NAME---GP ---MIN---ADJP48---WP48-----WP-------PoP48----PTS----REB---AST
Booker--16---533---0.023----*-0.068---*-0.8------*-5.2------27.1---3.9----3.4
Warren-13---421----0.199-----0.067-----0.6-------*-0.9------26.3---6.4----1.5
Tucker--17---380----0.271-----0.178-----1.4--------2.5--------9.2--12.3---2.1
Knight--17---426----0.043---*-0.049----*-0.4 ------*-4.6------24.1---5.2---5.9
Barbosa-16---205----0.235-----0.119-----0.5 --------0.6------19.7---5.2---4.9
Bledsoe-17---548----0.231-----0.107-----1.2 --------0.2------27.2---8.8---8
Chriss---17---265----0.024---*-0.184---*-0.9 ------*-8.8-------19----9.4---1.8
Dudley--17---424----0.264-----0.056-----0.5-------*-1.3-------16----7.2---4.2
Len------17---401----0.341-----0.133-----1.1---------1.1-------18.7-16.9---1.7
Chandler-9---234----0.498-----0.29-------1.4 5--------.9--------13---21.6--0.8

Anyway, those are my assertions, right or wrong, and they have nothing to do with 'rose colored' glasses. I love me some Warren and Booker more so than Len, but even I recognize that Booker is NOT having a good year, and Warren, while doing well, needs to stay healthy and play, yet he seems to get the injury bug almost each season, and this 2-3 gms out has now turned into a couple of weeks. To me, that's a potential to portend issues in the future.

[NavLDO]

Its going to be interesting to see what kind of offer he can get this summer. In a vacuum you would think a young defensive center would get a big offer but then you look around and its hard to see a lot of teams with both money and a need. Plus hell have competition from noel and others on the market.

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but we get 'right of first refusal', correct? So a team could offer him the Max, and we could match that and keep him. If he plays at the current levels, and doesn't improve, I doubt McD would match a Max contract. But if it's all the same to you, I'd be willing to go as high as the high teens ($18M??). But when I say current levels, I mean November current, not season current, so 55% shooting, slashing 12/10 in 30 mpg with about 1.8 Blks.

If he gets those numbers to 16/12/2 Blks, then maybe a Max would be in order. Still a bit rich, but after seeing what the ‘Bigs’ are getting lately, it would easily still be a better deal than what the Lakers paid Mozgov, or what the Wizards paid Mahinmi.

Think about it. It would a) be a year later, so right there, that makes those $17.5M per vs $16M per, and b) Mahinmi got paid that for 25.6 mpg, 9.3 Pts, 7.2 TRB, 1.1Blks, and below 60% FT% at age 29. While Mozgov was 2 years removed from his best season of 25 mpg, 10.6 Pts, 6.9 TRB, 1.2 Blks, and 71% FT%, but since, he had regressed by 4 pts and 2.5 TRBs, and was then, also 29YO.

So we could pay Len at age 24, $20M, with his stats of 10pts, 9.5 TRB, 1.7 Blks on 24.5 mpg and we could win the argument that we got the better deal than they did…they are going to pay those mediocre talents $16M at age 33 to…do what, exactly? Especially with Mozgov’s record of diminished play? He’s shooting.2.5 pts better, but still at 4.5 TRB, and is now less than 1 Blk/gm. And Mahinmi…heck, he’s played ONE game this season.

So those worried about what we are going to have to pay Len, well, I wouldn’t worry about it, because at worst, we pay the Max to a, at worst, 12/10/1.7 24 YO through his age 29, when he’ll still at least have a heartbeat. Oh, and BTW, yeah, we are paying $13M to Chandler, but the dude is out-producing more than either Mahinmi or Mozgov did last year, this year, at age 34 by shooting 72%, 65%FT, 7 Pts and a whopping 11.7 TRB...so I'm ok with that $13M...

[TeamTragic]

Len is going to be the highest paid player on the team. It is what it is, unless we make a big trade or sign a top tier free agent. Likely around 15. You have to keep your own free agents if they are at least decent, especially if they are young because otherwise you are forced to overpay older mediocre centers like many of the teams did this past offseason. Unless he is absolutely terrible down the stretch this year, I value his rebounding and blocks. He shouldn't handle the ball much, but he's one of the better centers we've drafted in a long time and will continue to improve imo.

Its going to be interesting to see what kind of offer he can get this summer. In a vacuum you would think a young defensive center would get a big offer but then you look around and its hard to see a lot of teams with both money and a need. Plus hell have competition from noel and others on the market.

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Noel > Len

[bwgood77]

Len is going to be the highest paid player on the team. It is what it is, unless we make a big trade or sign a top tier free agent. Likely around 15. You have to keep your own free agents if they are at least decent, especially if they are young because otherwise you are forced to overpay older mediocre centers like many of the teams did this past offseason. Unless he is absolutely terrible down the stretch this year, I value his rebounding and blocks. He shouldn't handle the ball much, but he's one of the better centers we've drafted in a long time and will continue to improve imo.

Its going to be interesting to see what kind of offer he can get this summer. In a vacuum you would think a young defensive center would get a big offer but then you look around and its hard to see a lot of teams with both money and a need. Plus hell have competition from noel and others on the market.

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Noel > Len

#1 - What more would you like to see from Len? Could he convince you with him play to come around on him or no?

#2 - Weekapaug's point was that Len may not get a high offer because there are a bunch of centers from that draft will also be RFAs and they will be sought after first. Most of those teams will keep them, or try and trade them instead of not matching them and letting them walk off. Also, there may not be that many teams out there that need centers since Noel and/or Okafor might be available and there are numerous other teams that have 2 or 3 decent centers.

I'm just saying Len will be the highest paid player on the team barring a trade because you can't let your assets walk away for nothing. So if he isn't traded by the deadline, I'm fairly certain we will match any offer or more likely get him to sign to what the FO thinks is reasonable if he really wants to stay with the Suns and not entertain other teams. Chandler can keep starting for now, so to compare him to backup centers across the league, he's got to be one of the better ones, and can continue improving and take over as starter next year or the following year, and we can draft a young one to compete with him.

[TeamTragic]

Len is going to be the highest paid player on the team. It is what it is, unless we make a big trade or sign a top tier free agent. Likely around 15. You have to keep your own free agents if they are at least decent, especially if they are young because otherwise you are forced to overpay older mediocre centers like many of the teams did this past offseason. Unless he is absolutely terrible down the stretch this year, I value his rebounding and blocks. He shouldn't handle the ball much, but he's one of the better centers we've drafted in a long time and will continue to improve imo.

Its going to be interesting to see what kind of offer he can get this summer. In a vacuum you would think a young defensive center would get a big offer but then you look around and its hard to see a lot of teams with both money and a need. Plus hell have competition from noel and others on the market.

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Noel > Len

#1 - What more would you like to see from Len? Could he convince you with him play to come around on him or no?

#2 - Weekapaug's point was that Len may not get a high offer because there are a bunch of centers from that draft will also be RFAs and they will be sought after first. Most of those teams will keep them, or try and trade them instead of not matching them and letting them walk off. Also, there may not be that many teams out there that need centers since Noel and/or Okafor might be available and there are numerous other teams that have 2 or 3 decent centers.

I'm just saying Len will be the highest paid player on the team barring a trade because you can't let your assets walk away for nothing. So if he isn't traded by the deadline, I'm fairly certain we will match any offer or more likely get him to sign to what the FO thinks is reasonable if he really wants to stay with the Suns and not entertain other teams. Chandler can keep starting for now, so to compare him to backup centers across the league, he's got to be one of the better ones, and can continue improving and take over as starter next year or the following year, and we can draft a young one to compete with him.

I just don't think Len fits on this team. We have Chandler and he plays better than Len almost every game he starts. Does Len have good games? Yes. Does he do it consistently? No. I'm just curious how/where Len fits into our current team with our current coach.

Len will not get a huge contract. He is injury prone and doesn't bring it every game. I would rather risk it with Noel and/or Okafor than entertain the idea that he has a place on this team.

I'm fine with a S&T if it makes sense. I disagree that he has a future on this team. He is not much better than Robin Lopez.

[WeekapaugGroove]

Noel > Len

#1 - What more would you like to see from Len? Could he convince you with him play to come around on him or no?

#2 - Weekapaug's point was that Len may not get a high offer because there are a bunch of centers from that draft will also be RFAs and they will be sought after first. Most of those teams will keep them, or try and trade them instead of not matching them and letting them walk off. Also, there may not be that many teams out there that need centers since Noel and/or Okafor might be available and there are numerous other teams that have 2 or 3 decent centers.

I'm just saying Len will be the highest paid player on the team barring a trade because you can't let your assets walk away for nothing. So if he isn't traded by the deadline, I'm fairly certain we will match any offer or more likely get him to sign to what the FO thinks is reasonable if he really wants to stay with the Suns and not entertain other teams. Chandler can keep starting for now, so to compare him to backup centers across the league, he's got to be one of the better ones, and can continue improving and take over as starter next year or the following year, and we can draft a young one to compete with him.

I just don't think Len fits on this team. We have Chandler and he plays better than Len almost every game he starts. Does Len have good games? Yes. Does he do it consistently? No. I'm just curious how/where Len fits into our current team with our current coach.

Len will not get a huge contract. He is injury prone and doesn't bring it every game. I would rather risk it with Noel and/or Okafor than entertain the idea that he has a place on this team.

I'm fine with a S&T if it makes sense. I disagree that he has a future on this team. He is not much better than Robin Lopez.

Chandler is FAR too old to be a part of this team by the time they will be ready to win. IMO chandler should have 0 baring on whether they keep Len or not.

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[bwgood77]

#1 - What more would you like to see from Len? Could he convince you with him play to come around on him or no?

#2 - Weekapaug's point was that Len may not get a high offer because there are a bunch of centers from that draft will also be RFAs and they will be sought after first. Most of those teams will keep them, or try and trade them instead of not matching them and letting them walk off. Also, there may not be that many teams out there that need centers since Noel and/or Okafor might be available and there are numerous other teams that have 2 or 3 decent centers.

I'm just saying Len will be the highest paid player on the team barring a trade because you can't let your assets walk away for nothing. So if he isn't traded by the deadline, I'm fairly certain we will match any offer or more likely get him to sign to what the FO thinks is reasonable if he really wants to stay with the Suns and not entertain other teams. Chandler can keep starting for now, so to compare him to backup centers across the league, he's got to be one of the better ones, and can continue improving and take over as starter next year or the following year, and we can draft a young one to compete with him.

I just don't think Len fits on this team. We have Chandler and he plays better than Len almost every game he starts. Does Len have good games? Yes. Does he do it consistently? No. I'm just curious how/where Len fits into our current team with our current coach.

Len will not get a huge contract. He is injury prone and doesn't bring it every game. I would rather risk it with Noel and/or Okafor than entertain the idea that he has a place on this team.

I'm fine with a S&T if it makes sense. I disagree that he has a future on this team. He is not much better than Robin Lopez.

Chandler is FAR too old to be a part of this team by the time they will be ready to win. IMO chandler should have 0 baring on whether they keep Len or not.

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Well he only has two more years. I wasn't saying keep him after that, but that Len could continue to improve for a couple more years. I already value his rebounding which we used to never have. Would hate to let him go, Chandler gets old and then we go back to a terrible rebounding team. Chriss and Bender not good rebounders so we need great rebounding C.

[WeekapaugGroove]

I should have pointed out that even if the market for center this summer is soft it only takes one **** team to make len an offer the suns feel uncomfortable matching.

My point was i dont think the money will be as insane in free agency this summer and center is a bit over saturated overall so its possible len will have trouble finding a big market for his services.

So much can change over the rest of the season. If len stays healthy and is consistent then his value will rise. And rosters change and teams who look set at center now could look different by summer time. Hell the suns situation could change too if they make a trade and land someone like okafor then they are far less likely to match an offer.

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