Suns Offseason Thread V: I Am My Brother's Kieffer

[bigfoot]

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/239036/Vast-Majority-Within-Kings-Organization-In-Favor-Of-Trading-DeMarcus-Cousins

How much else needs to be said? Only Ranadive and Divac don't want to trade Cousins. Everyone else does - though yes - this is coming from Bleacher Report. McD needs to get on the phone and sell the farm (.....that means Goodwin bwgood77!)

Not sure I agree with acquiring Cousins. He is a center who takes a high volume of shots but doesn't have a good 2pt FG percentage. Almost 95% of his shots come within 10 feet of the basket and 63% within three feet .... yet his shooting percentage is a paltry 46.7%. That's really bad for a center and the primary offensive option.

Who would you prefer that would actually be attainable in a trade?

Well we should consider ourselves set at the PG, SG, and C positions. Obviously PF is our biggest need with the Kief situation. That's why Boogie doesn't really help us unless we give up both Chandler and Len. However, in terms of obtainable stars I'm not sure there are any right now. Sure Boogie is a star in terms of media coverage and has an all-star appearance under his belt. But if you look at his similarity scores on basketball reference I just don't see real all-star caliber talent

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/couside01.html

Just looking at similarity scores and you can see DeMarcus isn't surrounded by high quality players

Similarity Scores Explanation ▪ Players with careers of similar quality and shape (thru 2014-15)
Thru 5 Years Win Shares (Best to Worst)

Elmore Smith 92.2 8.7 5.9 4.7 3.9 1.5
Andrew Bynum 91.3 7.8 5.5 4.8 4.2 0.1
Mike Lewis 90.6 7.9 7.5 4.0 3.8 1.1
Emeka Okafor 87.7 8.2 7.1 5.8 4.0 1.0
Andrew Bogut 87.5 7.5 5.5 4.8 4.0 2.6
Gene Moore 86.9 6.8 5.7 5.0 4.5 1.9
Andris Biedrins 86.8 8.0 6.7 5.4 2.9 1.2
Samuel Dalembert 86.4 6.9 6.2 3.9 3.6 0.3
Chuck Share 85.9 8.6 8.1 4.7 4.0 1.3
Bob Rule 85.4 7.8 6.4 5.2 2.4 0.5

Compare that with someone like Jimmy Butler

Tayshaun Prince 89.7 9.4 7.5 7.0 0.8
Rudy Tomjanovich 88.3 12.8 8.4 6.9 1.0
Mark Aguirre 87.1 9.0 7.2 6.9 1.9
Kiki Vandeweghe 85.6 11.0 10.3 7.7 1.2
David Lee 83.9 9.0 7.4 6.9 2.7
Paul George 83.5 10.8 9.0 6.0 2.4
Kevin McHale 82.6 10.5 7.5 7.5 4.7
Shawn Kemp 82.5 9.1 6.7 6.1 2.1
Dennis Rodman 82.3 9.3 8.1 6.8 2.9
Dominique Wilkins 81.9 10.8 7.6 7.0 5.8

Or Chris Paul

Jerry West 93.3 17.1 16.7 15.2 14.0 12.9 11.7 10.8 9.6 8.1 6.6
Magic Johnson 88.5 16.1 15.9 12.9 12.7 12.5 12.1 10.9 10.5 10.2 6.4
Oscar Robertson 85.0 20.6 17.4 17.0 16.9 16.8 15.6 13.2 12.9 12.3 11.4
John Stockton 83.8 15.6 14.4 14.1 14.0 13.4 13.2 10.6 6.7 5.9 3.1
Walt Frazier 82.8 15.6 15.0 14.5 13.0 12.7 10.9 10.8 6.8 6.1 3.5
Reggie Miller 75.2 12.5 12.3 12.1 11.7 11.4 11.3 11.0 10.3 6.5 4.2
Dwyane Wade 74.6 14.7 14.4 13.0 12.8 11.0 9.6 8.8 7.7 4.6 3.3
Kobe Bryant 72.5 15.3 14.9 12.7 11.3 10.7 10.6 8.1 6.3 5.2 1.8
Michael Jordan 72.3 21.2 20.3 19.8 19.0 17.7 17.2 16.9 14.0 2.3 1.5
Clyde Drexler 69.8 13.2 12.8 12.6 12.4 11.6 10.3 7.5 6.7 6.0 2.4

or Shawn Marion

Scottie Pippen 94.0 13.1 12.7 12.3 11.8 11.2 11.2 8.6 7.8 6.6 5.7 5.1 4.9 4.0 3.8 3.7 2.3
Elton Brand 87.9 14.8 13.6 11.5 10.6 9.7 9.4 7.6 7.5 6.1 6.1 3.6 3.5 3.4 0.9 0.7 0.5
Adrian Dantley 87.8 14.6 13.6 12.8 12.6 12.2 10.5 10.3 9.8 9.4 8.0 7.4 5.7 4.3 3.1 0.1
Pau Gasol 87.1 14.7 13.9 12.0 11.0 10.4 8.5 8.4 8.3 8.1 7.6 6.9 6.8 3.7 3.0
John Havlicek 86.4 12.5 12.4 12.1 10.6 9.7 9.7 8.3 7.7 7.6 7.4 7.3 6.4 6.1 5.1 4.5 4.3
Dominique Wilkins 85.4 12.2 11.4 11.1 10.8 10.5 10.4 9.8 8.4 7.6 7.0 5.8 5.1 3.9 3.4 0.3
Kevin McHale 85.2 14.8 11.1 11.0 11.0 10.5 10.2 10.1 7.9 7.5 7.5 4.7 4.0 2.8
Rick Barry 84.6 14.4 12.7 11.1 10.4 10.4 10.2 9.7 9.6 8.5 8.4 8.1 7.8 4.2 3.4
Paul Pierce 84.4 12.9 12.4 11.6 11.5 11.2 10.4 10.3 10.1 8.3 8.2 7.2 7.1 7.0 5.4 5.2 4.9
Chet Walker 84.0 14.5 10.9 10.9 10.6 10.5 10.1 9.8 9.8 8.2 7.8 5.4 5.3 3.7

Or pick any other high caliber player and you can kinda of see why Boogie really looks overrated.

[bwgood77]

Spoiler:

You forgot to mention that cousins is a superstar. It's been like half a decade since this team has had a star and yet people want to be picky. It's a domino. The first one falls the others would follow.


On a side note (I'm gonna rant for awhile, need to get it off my chest):
I'm getting tired of posting on realgm anymore for Suns stuff. It's 5 straight (going on 6 years) of totally trash basketball by this once proud organization. It's the same BS song and dance from this organization for 5 freaking years. "We just ask for patience from the fans!" Those days passed by 3 years ago. It's put up or shut up time.

There was a time I would get Suns tattoos because I was a freak fan. My love for the Suns organization was unmatched. But that was under a different owner and a different time. This owner basically pisses on the history, implementing orange and black as colors. WTF is this Halloween or something? The whole point of the Suns colors was it came from the Arizona sunset. Don't get me started on the "Los Suns" profit gimmick. Sarver is more worried about a profit than attracting stars.

The Suns current plan is "to wait for a disgruntled star to come available". What kind BS plan is that. Ryan has collected a large amount of marginal players that most teams look at as good role players. Ryan basically pushes Bledsoe on everyone like he is some sort of star. I'd rather pull a fast on the league like the Spurs did (pretending David Robinson has a season long injury) and get the #1 pick. "But you don't know if the player will be a star or not", we get from some here. No some people are content on picking #13 every year and collecting a whole bunch of earl clarks, Archie goodwins, markieff's, Warren (has potential to be a good role player) and points guards who can't even stay in the league anymore. But there is not one star among them. I'm sick of it. Shoot the coyotes have a brighter future than the Suns right now.

There's a reason the cardinals are the star attraction in phx right now. Great ownership (once bill gave the power to his son, nothing but up), great FO, great coaching, great culture. Players are wanting to play for the Cardinals. They want a chance to win.

The Suns organization literally needs to be torn up from the floor up. Nothing is going to change until Babby is gone and a said truth I have come to accept is nothing is going to change until sarver is gone. I tried and I tried and i tired to give the guy the benefit of doubt. Poor leadership breeds poor leadership. Sarver is a poor leader for this organization.

I'm sorry but I have been waiting a long time to just let out all my frustration. This is 5 going on 6 years of pillow talk from this organization. Sarver has road the coattails of success that Steve Nash provided. He has done nothing more. I'm sick of it all with this organization.

I agree with many of your points, but the problem with going for the #1 pick is that we don't have that one star we can sit. We'd have to sit a bunch of players, so it's not feasible. The west is so tough that we likely will have a tough time becoming a top notch team for years. I'm definitely frustrated but I've lived through years of frustration with the football teams I pull for and at some point, tides change. I have hope that the same happens with the Suns. The Cards were trash for like 15 years and the Chargers were trash for like 7.

Except changing your fortune quickly is much easier in a sport like bball where one player can singlehandedly lift an otherwise sorry team into contention because only 5 guys can be on the court at a time. Sure the NBA draft is one of the biggest crapshoots(well except the MLB draft where picks are literally drawn from the hat) since its getting top heavy as ever with thinning depth, second rounders aren't expected to even make the team and there's a huge drop off between early lottery talent and the rest. But its also the most rewarding and requires the least amount of homework/scouting rigor(with the exception of overseas talent evalation) than the NFL to determine the one and done elite prospects although with a lesser margin of error. That is why blowing it up or simply not fighting against the process of bottoming out is a viable strategy in the NBA and not in other sports. Expectin a coplete turnaround to contention status in less than a decade is completely realistic expectations in this game but at the rate we're going we'll be hardpressed to witness a first round playoff exit by 2020.

I agree, but the problem is, even if you finish with the worst record, you could end up with the 4th pick. I don't know how many years I would want to roll the dice on that. What happens if you try it and you miss out 2 or 3 years? How long would you do it for?

[bwgood77]

Spoiler:

You forgot to mention that cousins is a superstar. It's been like half a decade since this team has had a star and yet people want to be picky. It's a domino. The first one falls the others would follow.


On a side note (I'm gonna rant for awhile, need to get it off my chest):
I'm getting tired of posting on realgm anymore for Suns stuff. It's 5 straight (going on 6 years) of totally trash basketball by this once proud organization. It's the same BS song and dance from this organization for 5 freaking years. "We just ask for patience from the fans!" Those days passed by 3 years ago. It's put up or shut up time.

There was a time I would get Suns tattoos because I was a freak fan. My love for the Suns organization was unmatched. But that was under a different owner and a different time. This owner basically pisses on the history, implementing orange and black as colors. WTF is this Halloween or something? The whole point of the Suns colors was it came from the Arizona sunset. Don't get me started on the "Los Suns" profit gimmick. Sarver is more worried about a profit than attracting stars.

The Suns current plan is "to wait for a disgruntled star to come available". What kind BS plan is that. Ryan has collected a large amount of marginal players that most teams look at as good role players. Ryan basically pushes Bledsoe on everyone like he is some sort of star. I'd rather pull a fast on the league like the Spurs did (pretending David Robinson has a season long injury) and get the #1 pick. "But you don't know if the player will be a star or not", we get from some here. No some people are content on picking #13 every year and collecting a whole bunch of earl clarks, Archie goodwins, markieff's, Warren (has potential to be a good role player) and points guards who can't even stay in the league anymore. But there is not one star among them. I'm sick of it. Shoot the coyotes have a brighter future than the Suns right now.

There's a reason the cardinals are the star attraction in phx right now. Great ownership (once bill gave the power to his son, nothing but up), great FO, great coaching, great culture. Players are wanting to play for the Cardinals. They want a chance to win.

The Suns organization literally needs to be torn up from the floor up. Nothing is going to change until Babby is gone and a said truth I have come to accept is nothing is going to change until sarver is gone. I tried and I tried and i tired to give the guy the benefit of doubt. Poor leadership breeds poor leadership. Sarver is a poor leader for this organization.

I'm sorry but I have been waiting a long time to just let out all my frustration. This is 5 going on 6 years of pillow talk from this organization. Sarver has road the coattails of success that Steve Nash provided. He has done nothing more. I'm sick of it all with this organization.

I agree with many of your points, but the problem with going for the #1 pick is that we don't have that one star we can sit. We'd have to sit a bunch of players, so it's not feasible. The west is so tough that we likely will have a tough time becoming a top notch team for years. I'm definitely frustrated but I've lived through years of frustration with the football teams I pull for and at some point, tides change. I have hope that the same happens with the Suns. The Cards were trash for like 15 years and the Chargers were trash for like 7.

Yeah I know, I'm just so frustrated with this organization. It brought me so many memories as a kid and it was a franchise I adored. It's like growing up in a town you loved then coming back and all the businesses are closed and everyone has moved away. Depressing.

Btw: chargers have some nice pieces over there. They could make some noise. Good luck to you on the upcoming season.

Yes, the Chargers could, but now in the ticker I just saw they are willing to switch conferences. If they end up in the division with the Seahawks and Cards, I'd be pissed. I like that the Cards and Chargers are in opposite conferences. I hope that IF they switch to the NFC (because they may be sharing a stadium with the Raiders), that they switched with the Cards. It might serve the Cards well to be in the AFC which is an easier conference right now at the very top. And at least the Chargers would have it a bit easier with the Cards gone and the Seahawks are natural rivals having been in the AFC West before.

[Frank Lee]

So the guy who attempted the most shots on the team prior to the trades was the put in the corner, huh? Not to mention having the worst assist rate among out 3 point guards. Yeah, definitely the victim of selfish basketball, and not the perpetrator of it.

You did watch last yr didn't you ? And the yr before ? Perhaps you can point out the difference between the two.

[bigfoot]

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/239036/Vast-Majority-Within-Kings-Organization-In-Favor-Of-Trading-DeMarcus-Cousins

How much else needs to be said? Only Ranadive and Divac don't want to trade Cousins, Everyone else does - though yes- this is coming from Bleacher Report. McD needs to get on the phone and sell the farm (.....that means Goodwin bwgood77!)

Not sure I agree with acquiring Cousins. He is a center who takes a high volume of shots but doesn't have a good 2pt FG percentage. Almost 95% of his shots come within 10 feet of the basket and 63% within three feet .... yet his shooting percentage is a paltry 46.7%. That's really bad for a center and the primary offensive option.

I would also stay clear of Cousins. I don't think he makes the Suns any better than we already are. High usage, low efficiency players like him will never win a championship and ultimately hurt the team they are on. Think Carmelo Anthony.

Funny when you look up how some of these so called superstar guy compare against other NBA players from decades ago. Here is Melo's similarity scores

Rasheed Wallace 95.3 11.0 9.7 9.3 8.9 8.5 7.6 7.1 6.4 6.2 6.2 5.0 2.3
A.C. Green 94.4 9.4 9.3 8.8 8.6 7.9 7.7 7.6 6.7 6.1 4.8 4.4 3.3
Dennis Rodman 93.6 12.6 9.3 8.7 8.7 8.1 7.8 6.8 6.2 6.0 5.8 5.5 2.9
Otis Thorpe 92.3 10.4 9.8 9.0 8.9 8.7 8.5 8.1 7.6 6.0 5.6 4.0 3.8
Alex English 92.2 10.3 9.8 9.5 8.9 8.3 8.2 8.1 7.6 7.0 5.3 4.0 1.2
P.J. Brown 91.6 10.2 8.2 8.1 8.0 7.5 7.5 6.9 6.9 5.3 5.1 4.6 4.2
Terry Cummings 91.3 10.7 8.8 8.7 8.7 7.7 7.5 7.4 6.5 5.6 5.2 1.8 0.0
Bobby Jones 91.2 11.0 10.2 10.2 9.2 8.9 8.2 8.1 7.7 6.4 6.0 4.8 3.2
Rashard Lewis 90.5 9.8 9.5 8.6 8.4 8.3 8.0 7.8 7.6 6.5 6.5 4.1 -0.4
Bob Dandridge 90.3 9.5 9.1 9.0 8.7 8.4 8.1 7.0 6.8 6.0 5.4 1.7 0.5

Definitely not in the elite tier of NBA players

[Sunsdeuce]

Spoiler:

You forgot to mention that cousins is a superstar. It's been like half a decade since this team has had a star and yet people want to be picky. It's a domino. The first one falls the others would follow.


On a side note (I'm gonna rant for awhile, need to get it off my chest):
I'm getting tired of posting on realgm anymore for Suns stuff. It's 5 straight (going on 6 years) of totally trash basketball by this once proud organization. It's the same BS song and dance from this organization for 5 freaking years. "We just ask for patience from the fans!" Those days passed by 3 years ago. It's put up or shut up time.

There was a time I would get Suns tattoos because I was a freak fan. My love for the Suns organization was unmatched. But that was under a different owner and a different time. This owner basically pisses on the history, implementing orange and black as colors. WTF is this Halloween or something? The whole point of the Suns colors was it came from the Arizona sunset. Don't get me started on the "Los Suns" profit gimmick. Sarver is more worried about a profit than attracting stars.

The Suns current plan is "to wait for a disgruntled star to come available". What kind BS plan is that. Ryan has collected a large amount of marginal players that most teams look at as good role players. Ryan basically pushes Bledsoe on everyone like he is some sort of star. I'd rather pull a fast on the league like the Spurs did (pretending David Robinson has a season long injury) and get the #1 pick. "But you don't know if the player will be a star or not", we get from some here. No some people are content on picking #13 every year and collecting a whole bunch of earl clarks, Archie goodwins, markieff's, Warren (has potential to be a good role player) and points guards who can't even stay in the league anymore. But there is not one star among them. I'm sick of it. Shoot the coyotes have a brighter future than the Suns right now.

There's a reason the cardinals are the star attraction in phx right now. Great ownership (once bill gave the power to his son, nothing but up), great FO, great coaching, great culture. Players are wanting to play for the Cardinals. They want a chance to win.

The Suns organization literally needs to be torn up from the floor up. Nothing is going to change until Babby is gone and a said truth I have come to accept is nothing is going to change until sarver is gone. I tried and I tried and i tired to give the guy the benefit of doubt. Poor leadership breeds poor leadership. Sarver is a poor leader for this organization.

I'm sorry but I have been waiting a long time to just let out all my frustration. This is 5 going on 6 years of pillow talk from this organization. Sarver has road the coattails of success that Steve Nash provided. He has done nothing more. I'm sick of it all with this organization.

I agree with many of your points, but the problem with going for the #1 pick is that we don't have that one star we can sit. We'd have to sit a bunch of players, so it's not feasible. The west is so tough that we likely will have a tough time becoming a top notch team for years. I'm definitely frustrated but I've lived through years of frustration with the football teams I pull for and at some point, tides change. I have hope that the same happens with the Suns. The Cards were trash for like 15 years and the Chargers were trash for like 7.

Except changing your fortune quickly is much easier in a sport like bball where one player can singlehandedly lift an otherwise sorry team into contention because only 5 guys can be on the court at a time. Sure the NBA draft is one of the biggest crapshoots(well except the MLB draft where picks are literally drawn from the hat) since its getting top heavy as ever with thinning depth, second rounders aren't expected to even make the team and there's a huge drop off between early lottery talent and the rest. But its also the most rewarding and requires the least amount of homework/scouting rigor(with the exception of overseas talent evalation) than the NFL to determine the one and done elite prospects although with a lesser margin of error. That is why blowing it up or simply not fighting against the process of bottoming out is a viable strategy in the NBA and not in other sports.

Hockey and basketball drafts are much alike. You kinda have to bottom out to get a franchise changing player. Think about this. Pelicans bottomed out and were rewarded with a franchise changer in the unibrow (Davis). Clippers bottomed out and were rewarded with griffin. Wolves bottomed out (wiggins). Cleveland (lebron). Seattle now okc (Durant). Magic (Howard). Chicago (rose). 9 times out of 10, your going to get a franchise changing player in the top three. Rarely, it's a weak draft class and there isn't much in the draft but that is rare (most recent was the draft from 2013). Point is, your chances of changing your fortune is waaaaaay better having a top 3 pick.

[lilfishi22]

The Suns current plan is "to wait for a disgruntled star to come available". What kind BS plan is that. Ryan has collected a large amount of marginal players that most teams look at as good role players. Ryan basically pushes Bledsoe on everyone like he is some sort of star. I'd rather pull a fast on the league like the Spurs did (pretending David Robinson has a season long injury) and get the #1 pick. "But you don't know if the player will be a star or not", we get from some here. No some people are content on picking #13 every year and collecting a whole bunch of earl clarks, Archie goodwins, markieff's, Warren (has potential to be a good role player) and points guards who can't even stay in the league anymore. But there is not one star among them. I'm sick of it. Shoot the coyotes have a brighter future than the Suns right now.

But you make it sound like we haven't tried hard enough going for a disgruntled star and we haven't gotten close (LMA). Most of the time it's more than just trying hard, some things our out of our hands.

What I don't want us to do is tank and EXPECT to get a top pick AND expect that top pick to come through as franchise star. Then you go into another 2-3 years of "hoping" that players turns into a star if he doesn't have a ROTY-type 1st season. There's so many things that could go wrong and luck to go our way and you're essentially throwing a season (or two) for this one guy. I'm sorry, but how is that "plan" any better than drafting well, developing young players and staying relatively competitive, while we wait to jump on opportunities that arise?

Everyone thought Morey was a genius by landing Harden for comparatively little and all the while they stayed in the hunt for a playoff spot. We're following the similar route by gathering assets, while staying in the hunt for a playoff spot but the difference here is that, we actually have a young players who are developing.

I'm frustrated too that we've been a such a long playoff drought but I'm OK with the route our front office is taking. A season ago, McD go a ton of praise and almost looked like a lock for Executive of the Year, then we have one bad season and everyone is frustrated again. I understand the frustration but I don't share your negativity.

[suns91fan]

Spoiler:

I agree with many of your points, but the problem with going for the #1 pick is that we don't have that one star we can sit. We'd have to sit a bunch of players, so it's not feasible. The west is so tough that we likely will have a tough time becoming a top notch team for years. I'm definitely frustrated but I've lived through years of frustration with the football teams I pull for and at some point, tides change. I have hope that the same happens with the Suns. The Cards were trash for like 15 years and the Chargers were trash for like 7.

Except changing your fortune quickly is much easier in a sport like bball where one player can singlehandedly lift an otherwise sorry team into contention because only 5 guys can be on the court at a time. Sure the NBA draft is one of the biggest crapshoots(well except the MLB draft where picks are literally drawn from the hat) since its getting top heavy as ever with thinning depth, second rounders aren't expected to even make the team and there's a huge drop off between early lottery talent and the rest. But its also the most rewarding and requires the least amount of homework/scouting rigor(with the exception of overseas talent evalation) than the NFL to determine the one and done elite prospects although with a lesser margin of error. That is why blowing it up or simply not fighting against the process of bottoming out is a viable strategy in the NBA and not in other sports.

Hockey and basketball drafts are much alike. You kinda have to bottom out to get a franchise changing player. Think about this. Pelicans bottomed out and were rewarded with a franchise changer in the unibrow (Davis). Clippers bottomed out and were rewarded with griffin. Wolves bottomed out (wiggins). Cleveland (lebron). Seattle now okc (Durant). Magic (Howard). Chicago (rose). 9 times out of 10, your going to get a franchise changing player in the top three. Rarely, it's a weak draft class and there isn't much in the draft but that is rare (most recent was the draft from 2013). Point is, your chances of changing your fortune is waaaaaay better having a top 3 pick.

Funny thing is, none of those seven teams you mentioned were actually led to the promised land by their franchise changers. Just saying, since motto of some people here is championship or bust (nothing in between).

[Gorilla Warfare]

Cousins is roster AIDS.

[letsgosuns]

The NBA has become the hardest league by far to build a championship team. The main reason is because of lack of elite talent. There are maybe only a handful of players in the league that are championship building players. In baseball there is so much elite talent. Even in football there is lots of elite talent. I want anyone on this board to name me one player the Suns could realistically acquire in a trade that will catapult them to a championship contender because I do not see any. The only players I put on that level are Lebron, Curry, Durant, Harden, and the Spurs team. There is no one else.

Then I look at next year's free agency and I see no one either besides Durant and I doubt he would even consider the Suns. And Horford? No chance in hell does he make the Suns a championship contender.

Honestly, who can the Suns acquire? Maybe the Mavericks want to rebuild and would trade Dirk to the Suns for Markieff and draft picks. Then Dirk could have a 2011 flashback and put on that kind of performance. I put the chances of that scenario happening at about 0.000000001%.

[bwgood77]

The NBA has become the hardest league by far to build a championship team. The main reason is because of lack of elite talent. There are maybe only a handful of players in the league that are championship building players. In baseball there is so much elite talent. Even in football there is lots of elite talent. I want anyone on this board to name me one player the Suns could realistically acquire in a trade that will catapult them to a championship contender because I do not see any. The only players I put on that level are Lebron, Curry, Durant, Harden, and the Spurs team. There is no one else.

Then I look at next year's free agency and I see no one either besides Durant and I doubt he would even consider the Suns. And Horford? No chance in hell does he make the Suns a championship contender.

Honestly, who can the Suns acquire? Maybe the Mavericks want to rebuild and would trade Dirk to the Suns for Markieff and draft picks. Then Dirk could have a 2011 flashback and put on that kind of performance. I put the chances of that scenario happening at about 0.000000001%.

Yes, if you are an NBA fan, you are better served as a fan to hope for a competitive fun team to watch for entertainment purposes, because unless you have a surefire superstar you will likely not win a championship. Now the tankers will say "EXACTLY, we need to tank FOR that reason" but 95% of the time, tanking doesn't work, and then you have nothing fun to watch for years. Last year sucked. No one disagrees about that. I think we will be fun to watch this year unless we have major injuries. We may be just on the verge of the playoffs, but we are young and most all of our players will only get better and not decline.

[saintEscaton]

Except changing your fortune quickly is much easier in a sport like bball where one player can singlehandedly lift an otherwise sorry team into contention because only 5 guys can be on the court at a time. Sure the NBA draft is one of the biggest crapshoots(well except the MLB draft where picks are literally drawn from the hat) since its getting top heavy as ever with thinning depth, second rounders aren't expected to even make the team and there's a huge drop off between early lottery talent and the rest. But its also the most rewarding and requires the least amount of homework/scouting rigor(with the exception of overseas talent evalation) than the NFL to determine the one and done elite prospects although with a lesser margin of error. That is why blowing it up or simply not fighting against the process of bottoming out is a viable strategy in the NBA and not in other sports.

Hockey and basketball drafts are much alike. You kinda have to bottom out to get a franchise changing player. Think about this. Pelicans bottomed out and were rewarded with a franchise changer in the unibrow (Davis). Clippers bottomed out and were rewarded with griffin. Wolves bottomed out (wiggins). Cleveland (lebron). Seattle now okc (Durant). Magic (Howard). Chicago (rose). 9 times out of 10, your going to get a franchise changing player in the top three. Rarely, it's a weak draft class and there isn't much in the draft but that is rare (most recent was the draft from 2013). Point is, your chances of changing your fortune is waaaaaay better having a top 3 pick.

Funny thing is, none of those seven teams you mentioned were actually led to the promised land by their franchise changers. Just saying, since motto of some people here is championship or bust (nothing in between).

I mean we are the winningest franchise without a title. Why don't we keep it that way and honor our history? That middle ground/objective shouldn't be the 8th seed. If you don't have a talented enough core to make a deep playoff run in the long-term why even bother entering the dance?

[Jarlaxle0204]

I still feel like our best chance at a star might come from Kevin Love. If he's still playing like a fringe all star by the trade deadline, a package of Kieff, Tucker, Goodwin, and some firsts might get it done. It's a large contract for Cleveland and can probably replicate a good deal of performance from Keiff and Thompson while adding depth in Tucker and Goodwin and valuable firsts for the future. Love would be the perfect PF for us and Chandler would really help to hide his defensive inefficiencies. Obviously, things would have to go poorly in Cleveland but this is my hope.

[lilfishi22]

Hockey and basketball drafts are much alike. You kinda have to bottom out to get a franchise changing player. Think about this. Pelicans bottomed out and were rewarded with a franchise changer in the unibrow (Davis). Clippers bottomed out and were rewarded with griffin. Wolves bottomed out (wiggins). Cleveland (lebron). Seattle now okc (Durant). Magic (Howard). Chicago (rose). 9 times out of 10, your going to get a franchise changing player in the top three. Rarely, it's a weak draft class and there isn't much in the draft but that is rare (most recent was the draft from 2013). Point is, your chances of changing your fortune is waaaaaay better having a top 3 pick.

I thought your comment that "9 times out of 10 you're going to get a franchise changing player in the top three" was a massive exaggeration so I've gone back the last 10 drafts (not including 2015) and had a look at those players drafted.

A #1 pick, will give you around a 60% chance of picking a franchise player
- Wiggins
- Davis
- Kyrie
- Wall
- Griffin
- Rose

A #2 pick, will lower that % to close to 33%
-KD
-LMA
-J.Parker

A #3 pick, have also yielded around 33% chance of picking a franchise player
- Harden
- Horford
- Deron Williams

A #4 pick will give you 20% chance of picking a star
- Westbrook
- CP3

So in a situation where you have the worst record, the worst pick you can get is #4, in which case, of the 40 players picked in the top 4, 14 have been franchise players. That's about 1/3 chance of picking a potential franchise player. I still don't see it

[RunDogGun]

The Wolves drafted Wiggins?

[AtheJ415]

Hockey and basketball drafts are much alike. You kinda have to bottom out to get a franchise changing player. Think about this. Pelicans bottomed out and were rewarded with a franchise changer in the unibrow (Davis). Clippers bottomed out and were rewarded with griffin. Wolves bottomed out (wiggins). Cleveland (lebron). Seattle now okc (Durant). Magic (Howard). Chicago (rose). 9 times out of 10, your going to get a franchise changing player in the top three. Rarely, it's a weak draft class and there isn't much in the draft but that is rare (most recent was the draft from 2013). Point is, your chances of changing your fortune is waaaaaay better having a top 3 pick.

I thought your comment that "9 times out of 10 you're going to get a franchise changing player in the top three" was a massive exaggeration so I've gone back the last 10 drafts (not including 2015) and had a look at those players drafted.

A #1 pick, will give you around a 60% chance of picking a franchise player
- Wiggins
- Davis
- Kyrie
- Wall
- Griffin
- Rose

A #2 pick, will lower that % to close to 33%
-KD
-LMA
-J.Parker

A #3 pick, have also yielded around 33% chance of picking a franchise player
- Harden
- Horford
- Deron Williams

A #4 pick will give you 20% chance of picking a star
- Westbrook
- CP3

So in a situation where you have the worst record, the worst pick you can get is #4, in which case, of the 40 players picked in the top 4, 14 have been franchise players. That's about 1/3 chance of picking a potential franchise player. I still don't see it

And even then I wouldn't say Jabari Parker has done a single thing to be labeled a franchise player at this point.

Kyrie you have an argument now because he was very impressive this past year, but before that he was the best player of a truly disgustingly bad team that he captained to not being able to even make the playoffs in the disgustingly bad east, while putting up inferior numbers to Isaiah Thomas. I don't give someone credit for getting MVP of an exhibition game, and feel he's been drastically overrated since that game when you look at his overall numbers. I think this year will tell us a lot about Kyrie's ability to be a franchise player. In my opinion he's clearly a better fit as a 2nd option.

[drewsprocket]

I don't understand the hate on Boogie due to his stats. The guy plays for the freaking kings with zero help other than Rudy Gay. C'mon that counts for something. There's no real system at work here that is effective. The dude is a beast. Put him on a roster with a playmaker, shooters, and someone to help on D in the middle and you have a playoff team. It's silly because what team has such a big man wasting away. Sure he has attitude but it's improved from when he was a young man. You'll easily see his FG% go up and his efficacy. Imagine Aldridge still on the blazers minus Wes Matthews, Lillard. You think he's still killing it from midrange? Methinks not.

[Qwigglez]

To Kings-
Len/Warren/Knight/Bogdanovic Miami's 1st x 2, Cleveland's 1st, 2017 Suns 1st
Gibson/Hinrich/McDermott

To Suns-
Cousins/Gay
Snell

To Bulls-
Markieff Morris/PJ Tucker

Suns roster
Bledsoe/Weems/Gay/Cousins/Chandler
Archie/Booker/Snell/Mirza/Leur



I know I know, too many picks, Kings won't do it, Bulls won't do it, you won't do it. Blah bla blah bla blah. At work, waiting for the season to start.

[lilfishi22]

And even then I wouldn't say Jabari Parker has done a single thing to be labeled a franchise player at this point.

Kyrie you have an argument now because he was very impressive this past year, but before that he was the best player of a truly disgustingly bad team that he captained to not being able to even make the playoffs in the disgustingly bad east, while putting up inferior numbers to Isaiah Thomas. I don't give someone credit for getting MVP of an exhibition game, and feel he's been drastically overrated since that game when you look at his overall numbers. I think this year will tell us a lot about Kyrie's ability to be a franchise player. In my opinion he's clearly a better fit as a 2nd option.

Yeah I was pretty generous when it came to franchise players.

Kyrie "carried" the team and was an all-star and likely would still be their "franchise" guy if Lebron didn't return.

Parker and Wiggins, I could put in the same category as too early to tell at this point but I threw them in just so I don't start a separate argument with Sunsdeuce.

[Mulhollanddrive]

Morris and stuff for Porzingis and stuff.

Carmelo would like Morris, basically a **** version of himself. And Jackson came out and said Porzingis has fundamental issues with his body shape that might mean he's doomed (paraphrasing).

While researching salaries, I saw the Detroit roster. Things can get worse, we're doing ok.