The One And Only Offseason Thread 5: Dinnertime!

[jcsunsfan]

You getting that feeling because you think that might be a last resort type of trade?

I'm about 93 percent certain Bledsoe is getting traded. And 7 percent goes to some weird outcome that he comes back.

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I'm 99% sure he won't be traded. No one will give him a max contract and trade valuable assets to the Suns. McDonough won't trade him for scraps, we will just dare him to take the QO.

+1

I see no reason why we need to short change ourselves to give Bledsoe what he wants. The guy is a pro and if it means he's playing on the QO or 48/4, I don't think he's going to cause us any problems on the court or in the locker room.

If Bledsoe informs the Suns office that he wants to sign the QO, I think they should tell him to wait. Then offer him 2/15 or something with a 2nd year PO. It gives the Suns a few more options if they want to trade him. They have to spend money anyway. He gets more than the QO would give him and a little security while he still gets to be a UFA next year if he wants. And it might buy the Suns a little good will in a relationship that has gone sour.

If I were to change anything about the CBA, it would be the idea of a qualifying offer. There should be a minimum qualifications for a RFA offer, but whatever offer is given by the home team should be the only offer he has. In other words, he should have 4/48 as the qualifying offer. As long as it is over the minimum, it should count. Then if he wants to go out and get higher bids, he can.

[bwgood77]

Bledsoe is a sure thing.

Which is why we should give him a max already!!

It's all about market value. It makes no sense to outbid ourselves. It would be one thing to raise the offer a bit in a give and take negotiation but just giving in is bad business.

Green font indicates sarcasm.

[RunDogGun]

Okafor gaining interest, yet no one still seems to know what his condition is. His agent finally woke up?

[Zelaznyrules]

Which is why we should give him a max already!!

It's all about market value. It makes no sense to outbid ourselves. It would be one thing to raise the offer a bit in a give and take negotiation but just giving in is bad business.

Green font indicates sarcasm.

I didn't know that, thanks for pointing it out.

[NavLDO]

Bledsoe is a sure thing.

Which is why we should give him a max already!!

IMO he has the talent and ability of a max player, but those knees...

But that's what makes him NOT a sure thing. He's a sure thing for about 1/2 the year...that's it.

But I did "and 1" your other post overall....Did I do it right, we 'And 1' posts you like? Sorry...still learning the ropes!

Back OT, I agree that we need to trade Bledsoe for "quality" vice " quantity". We've been down that road last year so we would be set up this year. Now look at us. Not counting Bledsoe, we have maybe 4 starter-talent worthy players in Dragic, Green, Markieff, IT (sorry PJ, starter hustle and heart, but bench talent). We have about 3-4 2nd string worthy players, and 5-6 unknowns...we need to turn those guys, with Bledsoe, into another upper-tier starter talent,

I won't be upset if we keep Bledsoe on a reasonable deal--he may turn out ok, but just too much uncertainty for $12M per, IMO.

[bwgood77]

For all we know, we do have our future star talent in Warren (I have high hopes). Don't forget he played better than Jabari Parker in both of their first years starting in college in the toughest conference in the nation, and Parker had much better teammates.

There are maybe 15-18 star players in the league. We likely have a better bet building through the draft than we do trading for one. Teams just don't let them get away and if they leave, there is only a slim chance they pick the Suns. I'm just glad I feel we have one of the best coaches in the league and a I think a very good young GM, but his eye for talent in the draft is still a bit of a question mark. But there are certainly many GMs who have a worse eye for talent in the draft.

[Years90Suns]

I wonder whether that intriguing sentence that a forum user posted here, implying that we'd better do not mess up with LBJ's agent had anything to do with Paul and LBJ making a trade to the Minny easier or not?

[SSOL]

Um, no.

[RRyder823]

I'm 99% sure he won't be traded. No one will give him a max contract and trade valuable assets to the Suns. McDonough won't trade him for scraps, we will just dare him to take the QO.

+1

I see no reason why we need to short change ourselves to give Bledsoe what he wants. The guy is a pro and if it means he's playing on the QO or 48/4, I don't think he's going to cause us any problems on the court or in the locker room.

If Bledsoe informs the Suns office that he wants to sign the QO, I think they should tell him to wait. Then offer him 2/15 or something with a 2nd year PO. It gives the Suns a few more options if they want to trade him. They have to spend money anyway. He gets more than the QO would give him and a little security while he still gets to be a UFA next year if he wants. And it might buy the Suns a little good will in a relationship that has gone sour.

If I were to change anything about the CBA, it would be the idea of a qualifying offer. There should be a minimum qualifications for a RFA offer, but whatever offer is given by the home team should be the only offer he has. In other words, he should have 4/48 as the qualifying offer. As long as it is over the minimum, it should count. Then if he wants to go out and get higher bids, he can.

The only reason why you think that's a good idea is because of the Suns current situation with Bledsoe and nothing more. No way would the players ever allow a change like that to the CBA. Teams with a RFA like Bledsoe would always simply low ball a player and then make it very public they'll match any offer if the QO is no longer an option.

You say you'd like 4/48 to be the new QO because its higher then the minimum but what would stop the Suns from offering 4/38 if it would count all the same??? Yes he can go out and find higher bidders as he could do right now but teams have to have a need and then have to clear the cap room to offer so it he would be forced to take what he feels is a low ball salary for 4 years instead of 1 because they offered above the minimum??? What if the home team as you put it only offers him 1 mill a year more then the QO minimum but the contract offer is for 5 years???

There would be no point for the home team to do any sort of negotiation even if the guy was a max level guy. Just offer him a 5 year deal slightly above the QO minimum so it become the new QO. Tell everybody you'll match any offer and if another team clears the space then and makes him a max offer you can just match and if nobody does you then got a guy that has no choice but to be locked in for 5 years at a bargain deal because what you offered him is the new QO. Would work out great for you guys this year but in the grand scheme of things OMG would players be getting screwed

[JTrain]

I'm pretty sure McDonough wouldn't take it. 3 backups (including two 2nd round picks who didn't play a minute in the NBA and most likely wouldn't even crack the Suns rotation) and a crappy pick is not enough for a player like Bledsoe. We need a "quantity for quality" type of trade, not the other way around. The Suns have enough depth, we need stars.

Terrence Jones is a starter. He might not be a star yet, but at 22 years old he had a WS/48 of .169 (better than Dwight Howard) and a PER of 19.1.

Among players that young (or younger), Jones ranked:

- 4th in WS/48 (behind Davis, Leonard and Drummond)
- 5th in PER (behind Davis, Drummond, Irving and Leonard)

Also, Johnson has potential to be a quality backup SG, and the Pels pick would probably be in the 10-14 range, which absolutely could produce a great player.

1. Jones is, at best, as good as Markieff (IMO, he's worse). We need to get someone who's clearly better than what we already have, if we are trading our best 2-way player since Marion.
2. The Suns have Ennis and Goodwin as 2 projects to develop in the backcourt. I don't see any chance Johnson would get ANY playing time at all for the next 2 years in Phoenix. You can find this kind of players in free agency for vet min every year.
3. Sure, the Pelicans pick could be in the 10-14 range, or it could be #19, or #24 in 2019, or a couple of 2nd rounders in 2020 and 2021, or the Suns could draft a bust...

Bledsoe is a sure thing. These assets most likely won't amount to anything special.

1. As I mentioned, the only objective measure we have to go by (stats) indicate Jones is slightly better already. The fact that he's also two years younger is nothing if not a positive.

2. The only thing we have to go by for the rooks is Summer League, where Johnson looked much better than Archie and Ennis. He could easily be a quality backup SG right out of the gate.

3. The chances the Pelicans make the playoffs is very very slim. And of course any draft pick could be a bust. That doesn't mean draft picks aren't valuable on probabilistic grounds.

4. As others have noted, Bledsoe's knees mean he is certainly not a sure thing, and most if not all GMs seem to agree with this.

A more general point is that, for multiple reasons, it appears we are very unlikely to get an star player in a S&T. In fact we are very unlikely to get anything that most fans even consider fair value.

We are running out of time. If he takes the QO, it will become even more difficult to get a good trade. So if we feel he is likely to take the QO, we would be wise to pull the trigger on a deal that is at least good, if not great. I think something centered around Jones and a first round pick is at least good, and that's better than scraps (or nothing) that we will end up with if we don't make a move soon.

Now, if the FO has good reason to believe he won't take the QO, then we should let it play out, sign him to four years, then either mend the relationship or wait for the perfect time to trade. At that point we should expect a great trade.

[LukasBMW]

When does training camp start? October?

[Jdiddy701]

I thought training camp starts late September. The sooner the better

[gaspar]

Terrence Jones is a starter. He might not be a star yet, but at 22 years old he had a WS/48 of .169 (better than Dwight Howard) and a PER of 19.1.

Among players that young (or younger), Jones ranked:

- 4th in WS/48 (behind Davis, Leonard and Drummond)
- 5th in PER (behind Davis, Drummond, Irving and Leonard)

Also, Johnson has potential to be a quality backup SG, and the Pels pick would probably be in the 10-14 range, which absolutely could produce a great player.

1. Jones is, at best, as good as Markieff (IMO, he's worse). We need to get someone who's clearly better than what we already have, if we are trading our best 2-way player since Marion.
2. The Suns have Ennis and Goodwin as 2 projects to develop in the backcourt. I don't see any chance Johnson would get ANY playing time at all for the next 2 years in Phoenix. You can find this kind of players in free agency for vet min every year.
3. Sure, the Pelicans pick could be in the 10-14 range, or it could be #19, or #24 in 2019, or a couple of 2nd rounders in 2020 and 2021, or the Suns could draft a bust...

Bledsoe is a sure thing. These assets most likely won't amount to anything special.

1. As I mentioned, the only objective measure we have to go by (stats) indicate Jones is slightly better already. The fact that he's also two years younger is nothing if not a positive.

2. The only thing we have to go by for the rooks is Summer League, where Johnson looked much better than Archie and Ennis. He could easily be a quality backup SG right out of the gate.

3. The chances the Pelicans make the playoffs is very very slim. And of course any draft pick could be a bust. That doesn't mean draft picks aren't valuable on probabilistic grounds.

4. As others have noted, Bledsoe's knees mean he is certainly not a sure thing, and most if not all GMs seem to agree with this.

A more general point is that, for multiple reasons, it appears we are very unlikely to get an star player in a S&T. In fact we are very unlikely to get anything that most fans even consider fair value.

We are running out of time. If he takes the QO, it will become even more difficult to get a good trade. So if we feel he is likely to take the QO, we would be wise to pull the trigger on a deal that is at least good, if not great. I think something centered around Jones and a first round pick is at least good, and that's better than scraps (or nothing) that we will end up with if we don't make a move soon.

Now, if the FO has good reason to believe he won't take the QO, then we should let it play out, sign him to four years, then either mend the relationship or wait for the perfect time to trade. At that point we should expect a great trade.

Well, the only thing I agree with in your post is that we are unlikely to get a star player in a S&T for Bledsoe. But do you know who is a star? Eric Bledsoe.

IMO, the chance that Bledsoe will take the QO is very slim. And even if for some reason he does take the QO, having Bledsoe for one more year (and maybe more) would be more valuable for the Suns than the Rockets mediocre assets.

Besides that, this discussion (or, for that matter, any discussion about S&T deals) is completely pointless because the Rockets won't give Bledsoe the max contract he's seeking.

[AtheJ415]

Do you think Morey would accept Bledsoe for NOP 1st, Jones, Johnson and Papadopolous?

I'm pretty sure McDonough wouldn't take it. 3 backups (including two 2nd round picks who didn't play a minute in the NBA and most likely wouldn't even crack the Suns rotation) and a crappy pick is not enough for a player like Bledsoe. We need a "quantity for quality" type of trade, not the other way around. The Suns have enough depth, we need stars.

Terrence Jones is a starter. He might not be a star yet, but at 22 years old he had a WS/48 of .169 (better than Dwight Howard) and a PER of 19.1.

Among players that young (or younger), Jones ranked:

- 4th in WS/48 (behind Davis, Leonard and Drummond)
- 5th in PER (behind Davis, Drummond, Irving and Leonard)

Also, Johnson has potential to be a quality backup SG, and the Pels pick would probably be in the 10-14 range, which absolutely could produce a great player.

Jones isn't better than Markieff, so he's not a starter on this team. We'd be trading our 2nd best player for a guy who can't crack the starting lineup.

[Jdiddy701]

"Suns were prepared to sign Love for $120M. Either PHO tried to rip off Flip & the Wolves or Suns value Bledsoe more than they care to admit." -Probballdraft

[Saberestar]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/Probballdraft/status/503974484500840448[/tweet]
[tweet]https://twitter.com/Probballdraft/status/503972741201281024[/tweet]

[NavLDO]

A more general point is that, for multiple reasons, it appears we are very unlikely to get an star player in a S&T. In fact we are very unlikely to get anything that most fans even consider fair value.

And that's the disturbing thing about all of this. It's nice that we have a top 30 player in Dragic, and potentially another top 25ish talent in Bledsoe, but we really need that "Top 15" type of player. Easier said than done, sure, but we've acquired a lot of assets this past year. I mean, there has to be a team out there that has a star player that is not a playoff team, that is looking to rebuild, ala Wolves/Love.

How about Cousins in SAC. Yeah maybe a pipe dream, and he has maturity issues, but he's uber talented, young, and passionate. Pair him with Dragic while he's in his prime and we are instant contenders, IMO. Can't we put together a package with Bledsoe. Something like this:

http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=lck6dao

Not cap guy at all, but if they could get Bledsoe to agree and sign a 4/$56M, plus Len and Warren, we would ultimately probably lose out on the deal, but in order to get us to a 5/6 seed now, I think it'd be worth the loss.

IT/Dragic/Ennis
Dragic/Green/Goodwin
PJ/MarcusMo/Green
KieffMo/Tolliver/MarcusMo
Cousins/Plumlee

Or how about a Playoff team that needs more depth and an upgrade at another position, like OKC, and we add a 1st or two to sweeten the pot:

http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=nvcuk8e

Bled/IT/Ennis
Dragic/Goodwin/Bled
PJ/Warren
Ibaka/Tolliver
Len/Plumlee

Flame away--I'm new here, so I've got some learning to do with this stuff. Just thought I'd throw out an idea or two, even if they are bad ones. I'm also not great with understanding the whole "spacing" thing--sorry, so these two may be horrible additions with what we are trying to do.

My goal is to get us a difference maker right now to pair with Dragic to get us a "big two", and then hope one of our younger guys develop into a stud, giving us a "big three".

[Saberestar]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/Isaiah_Thomas2/status/503948568810381312[/tweet]

[Saberestar]

Alex Kennedy: The Houston Rockets are trying to acquire free agent Ramon Sessions in a sign-and-trade with the Milwaukee Bucks, per league sources.

Sources say there is mutual interest between Ramon Sessions and the Rockets. There have been sign-and-trade talks, but nothing is imminent.

It seems that Houston will not trade for Bledsoe, other suitor out.

[Jdiddy701]

Not gonna lie but I am really excited about Isaiah Thomas.. A guy that loves Phoenix and appreciates a good organization is okay by me. Bledsoe learn from this fella.

I have no doubt in my mind if Bledsoe would be the same, the Suns would have raised their offer which I am happy they haven't.