Season Speculation, Trade Ideas & Discussion Pt. 6

[bwgood77]

Spoiler:

Disagree. You can live with one poor defender in the back court but you're gonna have a hard time getting anywhere with two poor defenders. Booker remains a poor defender but he still has potential to improve so it may become less of an issue but I'm not holding my breath for that. I love what Young brings but I really feel like he needs a competent defender next to him for a team to succeed at the NBA level. Looking at the elite teams, at least one player in their back court is at least a competent defender.

GSW: Klay
HOU: CP3
TOR: Lowry
BOS: Brown
CLE: Hill (now)
SAN: Green
MIN: Butler
OKC: Roberson

Not saying we don't need shooting because we need it in the worst way but I just don't agree that we can have two elite shooters who also happen to be (potentially) pathetic defenders. If Young was still available when we pick, he *may* not be my first choice depending who's still around.

Ideally I agree. But there is a chance he is transcendent offensively, and that him and Booker are SO efficient from 3 that is it simply too difficult to guard both of them and we could blitz other teams on the offensive end.

It's not like there are great defensive PGs on the market. Would you really prefer a guy like Shai to Trae Young just for defensive purposes?

Besides, Ayton and Bagley are not good defenders either (and Bagley can't shoot). So then you have Bamba who seems very high risk or JJJ who I really like because he can shoot and is a great defender who can switch.

I just think if it's very hard to pass on Trae if Doncic and Porter are gone. I could see maybe going with Ayton and I could definitely see the argument for JJJ, but Ayton is another guy we'd have to hope develops defensively. Having defense at the C position is FAR more important than having it at the PG spot.

Most of the great point guards really don't get stopped anyway. You don't see guys like Curry, Westbrook, Paul, Harden, etc getting shut down by point guards...heck even Payton going up against a great defensive team couldn't be stopped last night and he is far from an offensive stud.

I'm not saying Young is the guy that is gonna stop these players because clearly he won't even be able to give them a hard time but it's the other guard that he plays with who will likely be put on these defensive assignment. If we draft Young then that player getting those defensive assignments is going to be Booker. This is why I'm not as excited about a Young/Booker back court anymore, opposing guards would walk through them with ease.

It sounds great if Young/Booker turn into Splash Bros 2.0 but even Steph is at least average on defense and Klay is pretty damn good. Young's offense *has* to be transcendent to balance out his weakness on defense and that's a tough, tough ask. Kind of like Nash with his legendary efficiency and passing game. I'm not as worried about Ayton or Bagley because Bender can defend already at 20 years old. Booker puts in effort but he's still a very poor defender and adding Young, to me makes the problem worse. JJ might mitigate that somewhat but he'll also need to be elite or near-DPOY level to cover those two guys. Even those two starting for the Spurs with Kawhi and in the Spurs defensive schemes might be in trouble.

Booker just needs to get better on that side of the ball. I mean you shouldn't be one of the worst defenders in the league if you're going to be a max player. I know a guy like Wiggins is a max player (though of course no one thinks he should be a near max player), but he is quite a bit better defender than Booker at this point....though last year in his 3rd year he wasn't any better than Booker is now, so maybe Booker can improve too.

But we can't be avoiding an elite talent because Booker is such a poor defender. Young could be Steph to Booker's no defense Klay for all we know (Yes, I do think Booker is better at many things than Klay, though worse at others). The point is this team is in no shape not to take the BPA for today's game.

If he is there at 5, no way do I pass on him provided Doncic, Porter, Ayton and JJJ are gone. I probably wouldn't pass on him at 3 if Doncic and Porter are gone (and it would even probably be a tossup at 2 between him and Porter with Doncic gone). C's are beginning to become a dime a dozen and even top tier prospects of a few drafts ago are playing on QO's or on their second team barely getting minutes....other decent bigs will be available. You don't come across an elite shooter and passer like Young often. I don't even remember a guy ever leading the NCAA in points and assists.

[Djedefre]

Curry is not an average defender. You could see that again yesterday. It’s just of little importance to overall Dubs D so people tend to overrate that aspect of his game.

No, one does not simply pass on a guy like Trae. Picking a guy like Jackson or Bamba ahead of him is pure madness in todays NBA.

I think there is a consensus that Doncic>Young and it is right. Ayton looks like a close one too. You could make an argument for Porter also based on his hs play and bball tools, but for guys like Jackson/Bagley/Bamba it is impossible, imo. I get all this cautiousness after Fultz case, but such an extreme downplaying of Young’s achievements and pushing him so low is beyond me.

[Frank Lee]

I must be in the minority of not wanting McD to monkey around too much.

[thamadkant]

Trae Young will be a good scorer in the NBA. He is bound to... And he fits the modern game.

I would not hesitate to pick him if available.... Unless it's Ayton there... Just seeing Cousins, Towns, Davis etc put up amazing numbers make me believe big men still have a place assuming they can dominate offensively.

[jredsaz]

If we snag Ayton and Bender/Payton finish the year strong, do we really need any major free agents? Perhaps we replace Len with Okafor and make a small trade for a vet 4.

Payton/Knight/Ulis
Booker/Daniels
JJ/TJ
Bender/Chriss/(Vet as insurance for Chriss)
Ayton/Okafor

That's the most positive after a 40 point loss post I have read yet. I think a starting 1 or 4 and definitely a back up 2, 4, and 5 could all be upgraded in that scenario. I wouldn't give anyone a multi year deal tho outside of the top 5 FAs, Gordon and Jabari maybe.

[lilfishi22]

Spoiler:

Ideally I agree. But there is a chance he is transcendent offensively, and that him and Booker are SO efficient from 3 that is it simply too difficult to guard both of them and we could blitz other teams on the offensive end.

It's not like there are great defensive PGs on the market. Would you really prefer a guy like Shai to Trae Young just for defensive purposes?

Besides, Ayton and Bagley are not good defenders either (and Bagley can't shoot). So then you have Bamba who seems very high risk or JJJ who I really like because he can shoot and is a great defender who can switch.

I just think if it's very hard to pass on Trae if Doncic and Porter are gone. I could see maybe going with Ayton and I could definitely see the argument for JJJ, but Ayton is another guy we'd have to hope develops defensively. Having defense at the C position is FAR more important than having it at the PG spot.

Most of the great point guards really don't get stopped anyway. You don't see guys like Curry, Westbrook, Paul, Harden, etc getting shut down by point guards...heck even Payton going up against a great defensive team couldn't be stopped last night and he is far from an offensive stud.

I'm not saying Young is the guy that is gonna stop these players because clearly he won't even be able to give them a hard time but it's the other guard that he plays with who will likely be put on these defensive assignment. If we draft Young then that player getting those defensive assignments is going to be Booker. This is why I'm not as excited about a Young/Booker back court anymore, opposing guards would walk through them with ease.

It sounds great if Young/Booker turn into Splash Bros 2.0 but even Steph is at least average on defense and Klay is pretty damn good. Young's offense *has* to be transcendent to balance out his weakness on defense and that's a tough, tough ask. Kind of like Nash with his legendary efficiency and passing game. I'm not as worried about Ayton or Bagley because Bender can defend already at 20 years old. Booker puts in effort but he's still a very poor defender and adding Young, to me makes the problem worse. JJ might mitigate that somewhat but he'll also need to be elite or near-DPOY level to cover those two guys. Even those two starting for the Spurs with Kawhi and in the Spurs defensive schemes might be in trouble.

Booker just needs to get better on that side of the ball. I mean you shouldn't be one of the worst defenders in the league if you're going to be a max player. I know a guy like Wiggins is a max player (though of course no one thinks he should be a near max player), but he is quite a bit better defender than Booker at this point....though last year in his 3rd year he wasn't any better than Booker is now, so maybe Booker can improve too.

But we can't be avoiding an elite talent because Booker is such a poor defender. Young could be Steph to Booker's no defense Klay for all we know (Yes, I do think Booker is better at many things than Klay, though worse at others). The point is this team is in no shape not to take the BPA for today's game.

If he is there at 5, no way do I pass on him provided Doncic, Porter, Ayton and JJJ are gone. I probably wouldn't pass on him at 3 if Doncic and Porter are gone (and it would even probably be a tossup at 2 between him and Porter with Doncic gone). C's are beginning to become a dime a dozen and even top tier prospects of a few drafts ago are playing on QO's or on their second team barely getting minutes....other decent bigs will be available. You don't come across an elite shooter and passer like Young often. I don't even remember a guy ever leading the NCAA in points and assists.

That's why I said he might not be the best guy for us when it comes to our turn to pick. And we're not passing on talent because there's similarly talented players in this draft (depending on where we pick). If we pick #6 and he's there, I think it's a no-brainer and we just work it out from there. But if we pick say #4 and Doncic, Ayton and Porter is gone, we might consider Bagley, JJJr over him.

[bwgood77]

Spoiler:

I'm not saying Young is the guy that is gonna stop these players because clearly he won't even be able to give them a hard time but it's the other guard that he plays with who will likely be put on these defensive assignment. If we draft Young then that player getting those defensive assignments is going to be Booker. This is why I'm not as excited about a Young/Booker back court anymore, opposing guards would walk through them with ease.

It sounds great if Young/Booker turn into Splash Bros 2.0 but even Steph is at least average on defense and Klay is pretty damn good. Young's offense *has* to be transcendent to balance out his weakness on defense and that's a tough, tough ask. Kind of like Nash with his legendary efficiency and passing game. I'm not as worried about Ayton or Bagley because Bender can defend already at 20 years old. Booker puts in effort but he's still a very poor defender and adding Young, to me makes the problem worse. JJ might mitigate that somewhat but he'll also need to be elite or near-DPOY level to cover those two guys. Even those two starting for the Spurs with Kawhi and in the Spurs defensive schemes might be in trouble.

Booker just needs to get better on that side of the ball. I mean you shouldn't be one of the worst defenders in the league if you're going to be a max player. I know a guy like Wiggins is a max player (though of course no one thinks he should be a near max player), but he is quite a bit better defender than Booker at this point....though last year in his 3rd year he wasn't any better than Booker is now, so maybe Booker can improve too.

But we can't be avoiding an elite talent because Booker is such a poor defender. Young could be Steph to Booker's no defense Klay for all we know (Yes, I do think Booker is better at many things than Klay, though worse at others). The point is this team is in no shape not to take the BPA for today's game.

If he is there at 5, no way do I pass on him provided Doncic, Porter, Ayton and JJJ are gone. I probably wouldn't pass on him at 3 if Doncic and Porter are gone (and it would even probably be a tossup at 2 between him and Porter with Doncic gone). C's are beginning to become a dime a dozen and even top tier prospects of a few drafts ago are playing on QO's or on their second team barely getting minutes....other decent bigs will be available. You don't come across an elite shooter and passer like Young often. I don't even remember a guy ever leading the NCAA in points and assists.

That's why I said he might not be the best guy for us when it comes to our turn to pick. And we're not passing on talent because there's similarly talented players in this draft (depending on where we pick). If we pick #6 and he's there, I think it's a no-brainer and we just work it out from there. But if we pick say #4 and Doncic, Ayton and Porter is gone, we might consider Bagley, JJJr over him.

I doubt he goes top 3 unless Orlando is in there and Doncic is gone...they might take him, but I won't be that surprised if they don't either.

Or maybe if we are in there. I have no real gut feeling on what McD might do though. jcsunsfan may be right and think that's the guy he's been targeting all along. I have zero idea what he would do. For some reason I don't see him taking Doncic though.

[bigfoot]

I must be in the minority of not wanting McD to monkey around too much.

I wouldn't consider it monkeying around to get some legitimate shooters to help Booker. Really we are so bad at shooting. If you exclude Len and Chandler (and most of us think they're worthless at C) here is our top shooters by FG%

.613 Payton ... this will come back down to earth
.502 Warren ... no three point shot (.203)
.431 Booker ... our glorious leader
.405 Daniels ... our supposed sharpshooter (worthless everywhere else on the floor)
.403 Chriss ... headcase, not the number I would expect from a PF
.400 Jackson ... voted by the GMs to be the best player in the draft
.391 Bender ... consensus wallflower, at least he is .379 from three
.388 James ... most hated Sun of the season, he's gone but still not the worst shooter
.382 Canaan ... our savior for a few games until he pulled a Hayward
.377 Ulis ... mighty mouse, except he gets his azz stopped by all the cats on the floor
.373 House ... two way player whose earned decent playing minutes
.359 Dudley ... I'll gladly pay Tuesday for a hamburger today (2nd worst 3pt shooting of career)
.268 Gray ... and we all know he is better than Ulis
.208 Peters ... another two way player
.200 Reed ... a respectable batting average for a defensive shortstop, not so much in the NBA

To put this in perspective the worst shooter on the Warriors is Iguodala at .436 which would be third best on our team

[bwgood77]

I must be in the minority of not wanting McD to monkey around too much.

I don't know about that. Earlier polls showed otherwise. I just think the ones who want to make trades and sign free agents and stuff are the ones that post most the most in the "Trade Ideas & Discussion" thread.

There are a ton of people who mostly lurk and rarely post and vote in the polls though it seems.

[bigfoot]

Here's what needs to happen this summer.

1) Sign Payton for $9M

2) Sign a decent shooting free agent for around $8M at the PF/C spot. This puts us over the cap.

3) Sign two more decent shooting free agents with the $8M MLE exception and the biannual exception

4) Draft shooters

5) Try to trade Tyson and Dudley but if not then waive them outright. Their leadership is not working and they shouldn't be taking any game time or practice time from our players in the rebuild. Sarver needs to step up to the plate and eat their salary this year.

6) Waive Ulis. Keep Reed or one of our second round rookies after training camp. Sign the others as two-way players.

Roster size will be just right and Suns will be over the cap by $10M but not a tax payer.

Payton/Knight/1st round Rookie
Booker/Daniels/2nd round Rookie or Reed
Jackson/Warren/FA
FA/1st round Rookie/Chriss
Bender/Williams/FA

Everybody competes for playing time and may the best man win.

[asudevil]

Here's what needs to happen this summer.

1) Sign Payton for $9M

2) Sign a decent shooting free agent for around $8M at the PF/C spot. This puts us over the cap.

3) Sign two more decent shooting free agents with the $8M MLE exception and the biannual exception

4) Draft shooters

5) Try to trade Tyson and Dudley but if not then waive them outright. Their leadership is not working and they shouldn't be taking any game time or practice time from our players in the rebuild. Sarver needs to step up to the plate and eat their salary this year.

6) Waive Ulis. Keep Reed or one of our second round rookies after training camp. Sign the others as two-way players.

Roster size will be just right and Suns will be over the cap by $10M but not a tax payer.

Payton/Knight/1st round Rookie
Booker/Daniels/2nd round Rookie or Reed
Jackson/Warren/FA
FA/1st round Rookie/Chriss
Bender/Williams/FA

Everybody competes for playing time and may the best man win.

The MLE already counts against the cap. So either the suns will have around $14mil in cap space OR they will have $6mil in free space and their MLE.

They do not have $14mil AND an MLE to use this offseason

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q26

[bwgood77]

Spoiler:

Here's what needs to happen this summer.

1) Sign Payton for $9M

2) Sign a decent shooting free agent for around $8M at the PF/C spot. This puts us over the cap.

3) Sign two more decent shooting free agents with the $8M MLE exception and the biannual exception

4) Draft shooters

5) Try to trade Tyson and Dudley but if not then waive them outright. Their leadership is not working and they shouldn't be taking any game time or practice time from our players in the rebuild. Sarver needs to step up to the plate and eat their salary this year.

6) Waive Ulis. Keep Reed or one of our second round rookies after training camp. Sign the others as two-way players.

Roster size will be just right and Suns will be over the cap by $10M but not a tax payer.

Payton/Knight/1st round Rookie
Booker/Daniels/2nd round Rookie or Reed
Jackson/Warren/FA
FA/1st round Rookie/Chriss
Bender/Williams/FA

Everybody competes for playing time and may the best man win.

If there wasn't a good possibility of using Dudley and/or Chandler's contracts to swap for a longer term contract next season along with a pick or something, then I'd be all for just waiving them. They'd still get their money and open up roster spots. But if Booker signs his extension this summer, using their contracts plus a pick are probably the best ways to get someone if it appears we may not have much for cap space in 2019.

However, I just did some work in the Capulator to see how much we'd have in 2019 if we just use our picks, sign Elfrid Payton to like a 3/27 deal (it could be less, but we'll see), and even if Booker signed his max extension it looks like we'd have cap space in 2019. But not if we sign anyone other than Payton this year (unless it's only a 1 year deal).

If you look at my roster here, I just made our three first round picks in the next two years, signed Payton, and kept our unguaranteed guys...it leaves us with about $2 million in cap space (2nd round picks are not included but they would not be guaranteed in 2nd years anyway...or shouldn't be).

But if we let Williams, Ulis and maybe even Reed go after 18-19, that would clear like $8 million more, and if we stretched Knight, it would clear over $10 million more to give us $20 million. We could also get rid of someone else then if they are not panning out...but we could probably fairly easily have quite a bit of cap space in 2019 even with an early Booker extension.

See 2019-20 column and only pay attention to the names on the left with dollars in the 19-20 column.

http://www.shamsports.com/capulator?id=15448564425a83bb6739547177462637

[Bogyo]

Curry is not an average defender. You could see that again yesterday. It’s just of little importance to overall Dubs D so people tend to overrate that aspect of his game.

No, one does not simply pass on a guy like Trae. Picking a guy like Jackson or Bamba ahead of him is pure madness in todays NBA.

I think there is a consensus that Doncic>Young and it is right. Ayton looks like a close one too. You could make an argument for Porter also based on his hs play and bball tools, but for guys like Jackson/Bagley/Bamba it is impossible, imo. I get all this cautiousness after Fultz case, but such an extreme downplaying of Young’s achievements and pushing him so low is beyond me.

Just to play the devils advocate a bit... Trae has missed his last 16 (!!!) 3 pointer attempt- 3PT% down to 37% now.
Oklahoma 2-7 in their last games and Young has 66 assists to 58 turnovers in those games. Is that Jimmerish? What if he goes even lower against Texas and Kansas this week?
So yeah, the lottery is still a crapshot. The good news is we might get Young with the 4-5th pick with a bit of luck.

[bwoolf2]

Curry is not an average defender. You could see that again yesterday. It’s just of little importance to overall Dubs D so people tend to overrate that aspect of his game.

No, one does not simply pass on a guy like Trae. Picking a guy like Jackson or Bamba ahead of him is pure madness in todays NBA.

I think there is a consensus that Doncic>Young and it is right. Ayton looks like a close one too. You could make an argument for Porter also based on his hs play and bball tools, but for guys like Jackson/Bagley/Bamba it is impossible, imo. I get all this cautiousness after Fultz case, but such an extreme downplaying of Young’s achievements and pushing him so low is beyond me.

Just to play the devils advocate a bit... Trae has missed his last 16 (!!!) 3 pointer attempt- 3PT% down to 37% now.
Oklahoma 2-7 in their last games and Young has 66 assists to 58 turnovers in those games. Is that Jimmerish? What if he goes even lower against Texas and Kansas this week?
So yeah, the lottery is still a crapshot. The good news is we might get Young with the 4-5th pick with a bit of luck.

Watched the game on ESPN tonight teams are putting a long defender on him which he is struggling to adjust against. He is a little guy very slight build its going to take him a few years to fill out not saying he won't but those that think he is going to come in and light the nba up not happening.

[thamadkant]

with the amount of blow outs this year and the bad 5 or so years... Suns have actually became a joke of a team. Not as bad as Kings or even Magic (since they've been giving away good young players)... or 76ers at their worst.

76ers atleast with Simmons and Embiid and a good off-season last year (Redick etc), they're on the upswing and will get FAs considering them.


Suns need to start being competitive... losing isnt an issue.. but getting blown out is. If the game is close, the youth play really hard... but when they're losing by 30 or so points, you can tell everyone just wants to go home.... and thats bad. That can have a resentful feeling around the team... but having a competitive team that is within striking distance... this MOTIVATES young players. They have that "We'll get them next time" attitude... rather than the "We suck bad" when they lose by 30+ points.

Triano is doing the team injustice by letting games get blown out by that much.
He should slow down the game and grind out the rest of the game... I would instruct the team to use up all 24 seconds offensively and then focus on defense... FULL COURT pressure.... take out players who dont try.

[Revived]

Suns are now generally viewed by basketball fans as having the third worst front office only trailing the Magic and Kings.

[Mulhollanddrive]

Booker, Daniels, Chandler questionable. If all miss it could get ugly:

Payton, Ulis
Jackson, Reed
Warren, House
Chriss, Dudley
Bender, Len

[lilfishi22]

Booker, Daniels, Chandler questionable. If all miss it could get ugly:

Payton, Ulis
Jackson, Reed
Warren, House
Chriss, Dudley
Bender, Len

Chandler - DNP (Old as dirt)

We need more of these

[hollywood6964]

Booker, Daniels, Chandler questionable. If all miss it could get ugly:

Payton, Ulis
Jackson, Reed
Warren, House
Chriss, Dudley
Bender, Len

Chandler - DNP (Old as dirt)

We need more of these

I've been in support of Chandler much of the time he's been here, but man he's just looking ancient out on defense. He can still get you 10-12 rebounds n a few lobs like clockwork, but he's looking more n more like petrified wood on the defensive end with every game. It's getting time.....

[BobbieL]

Spoiler:

Here's what needs to happen this summer.

1) Sign Payton for $9M

2) Sign a decent shooting free agent for around $8M at the PF/C spot. This puts us over the cap.

3) Sign two more decent shooting free agents with the $8M MLE exception and the biannual exception

4) Draft shooters

5) Try to trade Tyson and Dudley but if not then waive them outright. Their leadership is not working and they shouldn't be taking any game time or practice time from our players in the rebuild. Sarver needs to step up to the plate and eat their salary this year.

6) Waive Ulis. Keep Reed or one of our second round rookies after training camp. Sign the others as two-way players.

Roster size will be just right and Suns will be over the cap by $10M but not a tax payer.

Payton/Knight/1st round Rookie
Booker/Daniels/2nd round Rookie or Reed
Jackson/Warren/FA
FA/1st round Rookie/Chriss
Bender/Williams/FA

Everybody competes for playing time and may the best man win.

If there wasn't a good possibility of using Dudley and/or Chandler's contracts to swap for a longer term contract next season along with a pick or something, then I'd be all for just waiving them. They'd still get their money and open up roster spots. But if Booker signs his extension this summer, using their contracts plus a pick are probably the best ways to get someone if it appears we may not have much for cap space in 2019.

However, I just did some work in the Capulator to see how much we'd have in 2019 if we just use our picks, sign Elfrid Payton to like a 3/27 deal (it could be less, but we'll see), and even if Booker signed his max extension it looks like we'd have cap space in 2019. But not if we sign anyone other than Payton this year (unless it's only a 1 year deal).

If you look at my roster here, I just made our three first round picks in the next two years, signed Payton, and kept our unguaranteed guys...it leaves us with about $2 million in cap space (2nd round picks are not included but they would not be guaranteed in 2nd years anyway...or shouldn't be).

But if we let Williams, Ulis and maybe even Reed go after 18-19, that would clear like $8 million more, and if we stretched Knight, it would clear over $10 million more to give us $20 million. We could also get rid of someone else then if they are not panning out...but we could probably fairly easily have quite a bit of cap space in 2019 even with an early Booker extension.

See 2019-20 column and only pay attention to the names on the left with dollars in the 19-20 column.

http://www.shamsports.com/capulator?id=15448564425a83bb6739547177462637

thanks for posting this - so yes when Booker signs that extension is huge. If he signs it now - the Suns do have to use Chandler, Dudley, Heat pick, Bucks pick, Williams (not guaranteed) , Daniels ad Ulis to make a trade. If Booker holds off - than I think the team has flexibility. It shows about 5.1m of cap space left over - maybe enough to get Hezonja on a one year deal - meaning SHOOTER!!!

But, if Booker signs the extension now to lock in the dollars - Dudley Chandler, Daniels and Sauce are good contracts to have to make a trade this year - just not sure who for. Other than Love - I don't see a match. Granted with the way the Cavs are playing with these new players - hmm, wonder if Love becomes odd man out especially if LeBron leaves.