2022-23 Season Discussion and Speculation 5 - The KD era begins

[Calvin Klein]

not sure if this was already posted, but Book thinking the same way we all are:

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Read the room dude. This squad was gelling. Bridges had just come off his best month. And is clearly going to be better. CamJo in a flurry after his return from injury. Getting alternating contributions from Bench Guys… stepping up… holding the fort till we could get healthy. Even CP had youthful moments. Dare i say DA was becoming less inconsistent. We sprinkled a couple stinkers in there, but for the most part, these guys were on a bit of a roll. Primed for a good run with a rested Book…. Yeah, lacking a piece or two, but not in need of a complete and costly overhaul. Certainly not now. We deserved to ride this one out. We were surprisingly good. Make changes needed in the off season


Clearly IshBS was not a fan of the Suns before this viscerating trade. Hes not invested in any of the players. No emotional ties. Their all just pawns at this point.This was easy for him. Its his team, not yours, not mine… to do whatever he wants. But with all of twelve hrs of NBA experience, he rips the heart out of this franchise after a dinnertime discussion with NOT his GM but his ‘group’ of advisors??? Apparently a good part of the negotiating was owner to owner (per CVernon) as well??? Any bets Isiah Thomas was there? Any bets hes the GM in a year?? It feels like a hostile takeover.

Well, we got what many wanted… a rich owner… and with it the feeling of getting owned. All that feel good chemistry… all that so called ‘valued’ culture?? Its gone now. No heart, no soul. Square one. Get to work

Im not anti KD, at least not nearly as much as antiPaul who i have disliked for his floppiness and foulseeking play. I dont care too much for the way KD has navigated through the league. But I guess thats the oldscholler mentality in me. Book is loyal…you felt Bridges and Johnson too. Like they would be Suns for their duration given the chance… ala Alvin Adams. They arent ring seekers, but ring makers. They embraced the city, the fans. I feel like CP could give a ****. Just a stop over soon to be last hoorrah for him. I dont know about Durant. But he has a track record.

if this falls short of a championship, we are going to feel it for a while. Their window, is likely my window. And even if we get one, it wont feel as satisfying. It will have a bought and paid for stigma. .



Nice start Matty. but let it be known, you’re on notice. My support can go dormant any time. The big hope now is he sacks the entire ‘in game’ entertainment people and makes the arena less obnoxiously automated. Get off my lawn!

Rant over… Go Suns…

Well said. And would also love getting rid of the whole in game entertainment. Get rid of the loud **** music, get an organist, and get Wheezy as far away from the arena as possible.

[Calvin Klein]

Weren't Suns tickets already one of the most expensive tickets around the league? I guess they will go even higher now.

[NavLDO]

I wouldn't be shocked--and tbh, I'd be a little disappointed if Monty didn't do this--if Monty tries various lineups--the Big 4 + ...

Craig
Warren
D. Lee
Okogie
Ish
Bazley

while also weeing, what happens when the scorers (Booker & Durant) come off. Who are able to maintain the play when they go out...is it Bazley, and his athleticism?? Its it Warren with his midrange game?? Is it Okogie (or Bazley), being able to keep up the D that Durants provides while on the court?? Is it Lee, because he can score deep and Booker is out??

Anyway, Monty is shurely alreasdy gameplanning in his head to see how he believes what will work best. It's easy when the Big 4 are all in...anyone will look good with those 4, but as has been mentioned several times, what happens when they go down, or out?? Who, from the bench, shows the best promise to not give up the lead that our big guns have provided, and in 95% of the contests, when those 4 are starting, I expect to be up early, and often...who can we rely on to not lose it quickly...

How often do you think we won't have one of Booker, KD, or CP3 on the floor? Your question of where the offense comes from off the bench would be the same had we not traded for KD.

Book, CP3, and Durant can all run our offense as the primary ball-handler. Book and KD just need some shooters around them. CP3 just needs a lob threat and some shooters and cutters. For the regular season, we may have to rely on Shamet or Payne (if they ever come back) to run some all bench lineups for a few minutes, but come crunch time or playoff time, one of KD, Book, or CP3 will always be on the court to control things. The ability to have an elite scorer on the court at all times, both of whom are willing and capable passers as well, will increase the effectiveness our "bench" minutes by a lot.

Also, I am not counting on Warren yet, but if he can return to his 15-17 PPG form, then he'll be the ultimate bench scorer for us.

Thats a very good point. The Suns should be able to stagger Booker, Durant and Paul pretty well. And also Ayton - two of those four should be on the court - a lot - well if they can make the playoffs.

Warren being Tony Buckets would be a huge lift

Payne back

add Barton or Holiday - skip on Reggie Jackson if Payne is healthy

Can someone help me understand what all the worry over TJ's health is?? He's essentially played the last two months. The 'injuries' he's had during that time frame were extremely minor--stuff that lots of NBA players deal with on a daily basis, right? He's averaged 18-20 min every night since the beginning of Dec.

Am I missing something? Is everyone still worried about his foot injury that laid him out for a year? Is it an injury that potentially will recur?

[Mulhollanddrive]

Booker and Warren will go from our best starters to our worst bench, doesn't sound so bad

[NavLDO]

This was an owner who finally is like the kid in the candy story spending all his money wanting to make an impression.

Jones was smart to not include Bridges. Ishbia overruled him - and thats why I think it was ego or emotion. And if Windhorst is right, he made the decision at dinner talking to his friends. Again, emotional - "hey lets do this" and they all take a shot and high five each other.

This decision was Sarver-esque to me when you include Mikal. Windhorst said the Nets never budged. The Suns should have waited them out if Durant was really only going to the Suns

While I don't disagree with your analysis, Durant telling the Nets that if they couldn't find the right deal for him that he would play with the new guys and get excited about it is what really killed this for us. It needed to be "Suns or I'm sitting out." Nets had no pressure whatsoever to move him. They asked for all that they wanted and got it. Yes, we could have waited until the offseason, but at that point who knows what happens. What if the Nets are super good and make it to the ECF? Does Durant still want to leave? What if another team throws a better deal together and Durant eventually says "okay, i'll play for them."? Nets had no pressure and the Suns needed to do this now if they wanted the assurance of actually landing him. Yes, it's unfortunate that the decision process seemed a bit rash or like he made it with friends, but Jones was there when they decided to include Bridges.

If Bridges and Cam and the picks were non-negotiables, I wonder how many people here would have stopped the deal just because we thought we'd fill that fifth starter spot with the Crowder trade and didn't want to send him to the Nets? I think maybe I would have called the Nets back and said "Look, we agreed to your SUPER high demand without any negotiation or lowering of cost. You need to relent on Crowder." I would have still gone through with it had they said no, but you had to at least try.

I think when it comes to BobbieL and I, we would have not one it even without Crowder. To me, if we don't win a championship it's a complete bust. If we do win 1 championship, to me, it will depend on what happens over the next 7-10 years for me to decide if that 1 championship was worth all that we gave up. I know I am in a very small minority but I'm not a ringz/championship or bust guy. I enjoy watching teams I like, like the 88-95 teams and the SSOL Suns, largely organically grown...we did add Barkley at the tail end of our first team, and got back Nash who we had drafted. All we really have left now is Booker and Ayton. I guess you can add TJ but he's only likely here for this year.

AKA being a Chargers fan during the early 80s with Fouts at the Helm, or '04-'10 with Rivers, right!?!? Nothin' wrong wiht that, my friend!

[BobbieL]

While I don't disagree with your analysis, Durant telling the Nets that if they couldn't find the right deal for him that he would play with the new guys and get excited about it is what really killed this for us. It needed to be "Suns or I'm sitting out." Nets had no pressure whatsoever to move him. They asked for all that they wanted and got it. Yes, we could have waited until the offseason, but at that point who knows what happens. What if the Nets are super good and make it to the ECF? Does Durant still want to leave? What if another team throws a better deal together and Durant eventually says "okay, i'll play for them."? Nets had no pressure and the Suns needed to do this now if they wanted the assurance of actually landing him. Yes, it's unfortunate that the decision process seemed a bit rash or like he made it with friends, but Jones was there when they decided to include Bridges.

If Bridges and Cam and the picks were non-negotiables, I wonder how many people here would have stopped the deal just because we thought we'd fill that fifth starter spot with the Crowder trade and didn't want to send him to the Nets? I think maybe I would have called the Nets back and said "Look, we agreed to your SUPER high demand without any negotiation or lowering of cost. You need to relent on Crowder." I would have still gone through with it had they said no, but you had to at least try.

I think when it comes to BobbieL and I, we would have not one it even without Crowder. To me, if we don't win a championship it's a complete bust. If we do win 1 championship, to me, it will depend on what happens over the next 7-10 years for me to decide if that 1 championship was worth all that we gave up. I know I am in a very small minority but I'm not a ringz/championship or bust guy. I enjoy watching teams I like, like the 88-95 teams and the SSOL Suns, largely organically grown...we did add Barkley at the tail end of our first team, and got back Nash who we had drafted. All we really have left now is Booker and Ayton. I guess you can add TJ but he's only likely here for this year.

AKA being a Chargers fan during the early 80s with Fouts at the Helm, or '04-'10 with Rivers, right!?!? Nothin' wrong wiht that, my friend!

Exactly. And as a Padres Chargers and Suns fan - I have seen a lot more losing than winning

I just liked the youth of the team, the players. I truly liked a Core 4 of Book, DA, CamJ and Bridges. I thought it was outstanding to build from

And like I said - if they had 4 picks for Durant - what could they have just used one FRP pick on. And Crowder - that price was 5 second rounders. So between the seconds and a FRP - what could they have done to add to this core. That would still be my preference

But if Durant comes in and they get to the Finals - I think thats pretty good too

[Tha King]

Booker and Warren will go from our best starters to our worst bench, doesn't sound so bad

Warren hadn't played in two seasons prior to this one and needs his minutes managed. I think adding another bench scorer like Barton would be good. Barton and maybe Jackson also, who could take some pressure off Paul.

[WeekapaugGroove]

It's probably a fair question at this point if Ish is a better option for the 15 man roster than a buy out wing. He needs to be on that vs a two way to be playoff eligible. There's value to him having played in the system for two years now vs a guy fresh off the street. I also like that his unique body type give you a different type of guy to throw at teams.

Probably depends some on how much they feel like Warren can play. If he's in the rotation then I don't know how much they really need a guy like Barton. Especially considering Okogie has looked pretty good.

Note, I say instead of a wing because they absolutely need to add a G for additional depth. To me that should be the clear priority 1 in the buy out market. Just can't trust Paynes troublesome foot.

Added bonus is they could use Ish's two way spot to grab a Ghost special deep prospect to take a look at in practice the rest of the season.

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[Fo-Real]

Let's remove sentiment: Anunoby, Huerter, 4 picks for Durant

Seems cheap if anything, I know there were a couple extra things but those are the ones people talk about.

Let's remove sentiment: Harden, Kyrie, and KD on the same team.

Best team ever constructed.

This team has less ego trip with Book and Paul. Also a real dominant big in Ayton.

[NavLDO]

Spoiler:

I saw the clips and Ishbia caved on Bridges... he made it an emotion driven decision to me. My take: the hoopla of the day, becoming owner, blah blah blah

Should have called the Nets bluff until 12:59 on thursday

What clips? Where did you see them?

It's too bad he didn't hold out longer. If Durant was determined to be traded specifically to Phoenix, then yeah, we probably should have held a bit stronger and waited until the last minute trying to keep Bridges.

Also, is it keeping Bridges and putting Ayton in the deal, or were the Suns offering Cam+expirings+picks? That seems awfully low of a price to me when the Raptors wante Kuminga+Picks+Moody for OG.

Ishbia caved on Bridges. Then after that they wanted to add Crowder where we were going to trade elsewhere and Ishbia then said forget it, after he had just caved on Bridges. Later he thought about it at dinner and told Jones to call back and take it.

Jones would not have made the deal even with just Bridges and no Crowder in. Though it then would have been Crowder and Saric instead of salaries probably, but the Nets would have never done it without Bridges.

Do you, or does anyone know, when Warren was added to the deal? Was he initially part of the trade -- KD/Warren for the twins and picks? Or was it after the Nets demanded Jae, that the Suns/JJ came back and said something like "fine, but you are taking 3 x Forwards, we need one in return, and want Warren..."

Just curious how Warren was added? Was it a numbers thing, meaning we need Warren's contract as part of the original deal, or was Warren's contract needed only after Jae was added?

I just haven't seen this aspect of the deal expounded upon...

[Fo-Real]

Spoiler:

What clips? Where did you see them?

It's too bad he didn't hold out longer. If Durant was determined to be traded specifically to Phoenix, then yeah, we probably should have held a bit stronger and waited until the last minute trying to keep Bridges.

Also, is it keeping Bridges and putting Ayton in the deal, or were the Suns offering Cam+expirings+picks? That seems awfully low of a price to me when the Raptors wante Kuminga+Picks+Moody for OG.

Ishbia caved on Bridges. Then after that they wanted to add Crowder where we were going to trade elsewhere and Ishbia then said forget it, after he had just caved on Bridges. Later he thought about it at dinner and told Jones to call back and take it.

Jones would not have made the deal even with just Bridges and no Crowder in. Though it then would have been Crowder and Saric instead of salaries probably, but the Nets would have never done it without Bridges.

Do you, or does anyone know, when Warren was added to the deal? Was he initially part of the trade -- KD/Warren for the twins and picks? Or was it after the Nets demanded Jae, that the Suns/JJ came back and said something like "fine, but you are taking 3 x Forwards, we need one in return, and want Warren..."

Just curious how Warren was added? Was it a numbers thing, meaning we need Warren's contract as part of the original deal, or was Warren's contract needed only after Jae was added?

I just haven't seen this aspect of the deal expounded upon...

It was right about the time that he hung a late 17 points on us, keeping his team in the game. The embrace and short convo he and book hade as the game ended also probably was a clue.

[Fo-Real]

Even if Payne comes back healthy and spry, we still need to add a reputable pg. Going forward, I dont want to see Saban Lee on the floor NO MATTER WHAT!! I also don't want to see us running Shamet at pg or extended point book out of need because we don't have a reliable third option.

[Fo-Real]

We may not be presented with a better option than George Hill in buyouts. Not saying he is a great option, just the best actual 3rd PG that is interested in us. Russ may not give up his bird rights for next year by taking a buyout. It could limit the amount of money he could make next year. Jackson has his eyes on Denver it seems. What other pg's may shake free???

[WeekapaugGroove]

We may not be presented with a better option than George Hill in buyouts. Not saying he is a great option, just the best actual 3rd PG that is interested in us. Russ may not give up his bird rights for next year by taking a buyout. It could limit the amount of money he could make next year. Jackson has his eyes on Denver it seems. What other pg's may shake free???

Man if Russ is really thinking like that hes going to be in for a rude awakening this summer. I think the days of teams giving him a contact above the MLE are done. Hell I question how long he's even going to be in the league.

But yeah if Jackson goes elsewhere Hill is an option. He doesn't have much left but as a Payne insurance policy I'd be good with him.

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[Ghost of Kleine]

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MID RANGE MAFIA!!!

You know, Ayton loves middies too. I would like these other three to become the three point mafia in the playoffs though.

For sure man! Every good/ successful mafia needs their high end assassins or snipers if you will to get tough jobs done! We'll of course look to add ours too. Additionally there's hope for Shamet to eventually play and fo well, but perhaps we might consider Bryn Forbes from the buyout pool. Or maybe Seth Curry gets bought out? Sam Merrill would be an absolute steal from the unsigned free agent pool, or maybe even Wayne Ellington or Nate Darling? I'd also have interest to see if Garrison Matthews might get bought out by the rockets.

[Ghost of Kleine]

We may not be presented with a better option than George Hill in buyouts. Not saying he is a great option, just the best actual 3rd PG that is interested in us. Russ may not give up his bird rights for next year by taking a buyout. It could limit the amount of money he could make next year. Jackson has his eyes on Denver it seems. What other pg's may shake free???

Man if Russ is really thinking like that hes going to be in for a rude awakening this summer. I think the days of teams giving him a contact above the MLE are done. Hell I question how long he's even going to be in the league.

But yeah if Jackson goes elsewhere Hill is an option. He doesn't have much left but as a Payne insurance policy I'd be good with him.

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George Hill is an option now man? I thought he was completely washed? I thought he would've had value as a throw in piece in a Crowder trade though. But from the buyout pool, would you really choose him over Wall or maybe Cory Joseph's or others that are rumored to he bought out? I actually think the suns will wait to see the best guard and 3& D option available and not move to quickly. Ultimately it might be advantageous ( with the way he's shooting) to simply look to sign an insurance policy 3rd guard option and then an insurance 3rd rotation rebounding 3 & D big ? I like Kaminsky if bought out. But wouldn't ultimately be averse to Ibaka in a simplified role. For his rebounding/ shotblocking size and his 3 pt shooting. I know he seems washed, but he's still only 33, and averaging 12/7/ 1 block and might still have a bit of juice left in him here and there if motivated for a ring?

I'd prefer Noel if bought out. But I suppose it all depends upon which players ultimately become available in the coming weeks and their fits addressing our needs?

[WeekapaugGroove]

We may not be presented with a better option than George Hill in buyouts. Not saying he is a great option, just the best actual 3rd PG that is interested in us. Russ may not give up his bird rights for next year by taking a buyout. It could limit the amount of money he could make next year. Jackson has his eyes on Denver it seems. What other pg's may shake free???

Man if Russ is really thinking like that hes going to be in for a rude awakening this summer. I think the days of teams giving him a contact above the MLE are done. Hell I question how long he's even going to be in the league.

But yeah if Jackson goes elsewhere Hill is an option. He doesn't have much left but as a Payne insurance policy I'd be good with him.

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George Hill is an option now man? I thought he was completely washed? I thought he would've had value as a throw in piece in a Crowder trade though. But from the buyout pool, would you really choose him over Wall or maybe Cory Joseph's or others that are rumored to he bought out? I actually think the suns will wait to see the best guard and 3& D option available and not move to quickly. Ultimately it might be advantageous ( with the way he's shooting) to simply look to sign an insurance policy 3rd guard option and then an insurance 3rd rotation rebounding 3 & D big ? I like Kaminsky if bought out. But wouldn't ultimately be averse to Ibaka in a simplified role. For his rebounding/ shotblocking size and his 3 pt shooting. I know he seems washed, but he's still only 33, and averaging 12/7/ 1 block and might still have a bit of juice left in him here and there if motivated for a ring?

I'd prefer Noel if bought out. But I suppose it all depends upon which players ultimately become available in the coming weeks and their fits addressing our needs?

Hill is pretty washed and didn't have trade value. If brought in he's behind Payne and just insurance.

I prefer Jackson to Hill. I prefer Hill over Wall, better shooter and defender and Hill is more accustomed to playing a role. Can't say on Joseph, I just haven't paid enough attention to him to know what he has left.

Curious why you say Noel? I feel like back up C with Joc and Biz is in a good place.

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[NavLDO]

Let's remove sentiment: Anunoby, Huerter, 4 picks for Durant

Seems cheap if anything, I know there were a couple extra things but those are the ones people talk about.

And watching these videos from all the network talking heads, they can't believe the pkg that PHX got--essentially, Durant for 3+ years for picks and some 'nice pieces', which were almost considered after thoughts "Oh, yeah, and Bridges is no slouch...BUT..." "Cam Johnson was coming along nicely...BUT..." Four 1st Rd picks seems a lot...BUT..."

...and the story seems to all come around to the fact that not only did we get KD, but we have 3+ Years control of KD, and, it's during the season, so the Suns get a chance to get immediate return on this investment...

So, it's not just KD...it's the other aspects that really give this trade value. Heck, Windy is already talking about Kyrie leaving Dallas, and cominf to us next season. (Not that I really want Kyrie, but CP3 is nearing the end, it appears, and I bet there will be at least a half-a-dozen PGs, wanting to fill in behind CP3...or heck Tag-team with CP3, knowing that it's gonna be their show, with at least one season with Durant, Booker, Ayton...and who else?

So now, let's fast fwd to 2027. Let's say Durant retires, Booker is just approaching 30, with Ayton, and whatever other star(s) we've signed, and guess what--maybe it's enough to keep Booker and Ayton right here...maybe Bridges comes back, who knows, but just think about it, this could more than just a season or two with KD+CP3, with Booker and Ayton, this might have set us up for the remainder of Booker's career...

I mean, we keep winning, isn't Monty likely to stay? And if he wants to stay, we've got a new owner who's not above spending $40M a top chance at a championship, so maybe he keeps spending to keep the current players happy?!?! And maybe, he blows all offers out of the water to bring CamJo back here in FA, if that's what Booker and Ayton want?!? And heck, how many players want to come play for a coach like Monty...

There's always chances none of this works, but I'm bettin' we have a better chance now, and in the next 5 years, than had we not traded Bridges and CamJo...

At first, I HATED this trade, until I considered all the aspects, and benefits of it. I still hate losing Mikal; who doesn't? But in the end, it's jersey sales, and rearends in seats, and advertising dollars, etc., etc. I sure as heck hope we can work a way to get Bridges back, but from his statement, it seems he gets it...

[Ghost of Kleine]

We may not be presented with a better option than George Hill in buyouts. Not saying he is a great option, just the best actual 3rd PG that is interested in us. Russ may not give up his bird rights for next year by taking a buyout. It could limit the amount of money he could make next year. Jackson has his eyes on Denver it seems. What other pg's may shake free???

If it comes down to a buyout option guard, I'm prioritizing one of Westbrick, Wall, Cory Joseph, RJ HAMPTON, Ryan Arcidiacono, Goran Dragic, or maybe even a small chance D Rose might get even get bought out??? But even then you'd also have a number of really solid 3rd rotation options from the unsigned nba free agents lists too. I'd look hard at players like PJ Dozier, Kris Dunn, Michael Carter Williams, RJ Nembhard, Mario Chalmers, and Shaq Harrison?? There'll be options though to choose from beyond Hill.

[dremill24]

Spoiler:

What clips? Where did you see them?

It's too bad he didn't hold out longer. If Durant was determined to be traded specifically to Phoenix, then yeah, we probably should have held a bit stronger and waited until the last minute trying to keep Bridges.

Also, is it keeping Bridges and putting Ayton in the deal, or were the Suns offering Cam+expirings+picks? That seems awfully low of a price to me when the Raptors wante Kuminga+Picks+Moody for OG.

Ishbia caved on Bridges. Then after that they wanted to add Crowder where we were going to trade elsewhere and Ishbia then said forget it, after he had just caved on Bridges. Later he thought about it at dinner and told Jones to call back and take it.

Jones would not have made the deal even with just Bridges and no Crowder in. Though it then would have been Crowder and Saric instead of salaries probably, but the Nets would have never done it without Bridges.

Do you, or does anyone know, when Warren was added to the deal? Was he initially part of the trade -- KD/Warren for the twins and picks? Or was it after the Nets demanded Jae, that the Suns/JJ came back and said something like "fine, but you are taking 3 x Forwards, we need one in return, and want Warren..."

Just curious how Warren was added? Was it a numbers thing, meaning we need Warren's contract as part of the original deal, or was Warren's contract needed only after Jae was added?

I just haven't seen this aspect of the deal expounded upon...

TJ's salary was NOT needed to make the trade work financially. So it stands to reason he was in the deal because the Suns wanted him (or because the Nets wanted him out )