Season Speculation, Trade Ideas & Discussion Pt. 6

[MathiasPW]

Can the Suns convince Booker to sign a smaller 2-year contract extension so he can sign his supermax extension in 2021 (when he has 5 seasons conpleted as a Suns player)?

[WeekapaugGroove]

with the amount of blow outs this year and the bad 5 or so years... Suns have actually became a joke of a team. Not as bad as Kings or even Magic (since they've been giving away good young players)... or 76ers at their worst.

76ers atleast with Simmons and Embiid and a good off-season last year (Redick etc), they're on the upswing and will get FAs considering them.


Suns need to start being competitive... losing isnt an issue.. but getting blown out is. If the game is close, the youth play really hard... but when they're losing by 30 or so points, you can tell everyone just wants to go home.... and thats bad. That can have a resentful feeling around the team... but having a competitive team that is within striking distance... this MOTIVATES young players. They have that "We'll get them next time" attitude... rather than the "We suck bad" when they lose by 30+ points.

Triano is doing the team injustice by letting games get blown out by that much.
He should slow down the game and grind out the rest of the game... I would instruct the team to use up all 24 seconds offensively and then focus on defense... FULL COURT pressure.... take out players who dont try.

I think a big factor in the blow out problem is the suns are getting nothing from their highest paid players. They are paying Chandler and Dudley around $25M per year to be stabilizing vets but they simply aren't good and actually contribute to getting blown out as much as the kids. It's pretty amazing how little the Suns are getting out of all their vet money; Knight and Williams haven't played, Monroes stunk then got bought out, and Dudley and Chandler are pretty much retired. Even rebuilding teams have to spend so should have some useful vets helping the process but the Suns are getting almost nothing from anyone not on a rookie contract.

[bwgood77]

Spoiler:

Here's what needs to happen this summer.

1) Sign Payton for $9M

2) Sign a decent shooting free agent for around $8M at the PF/C spot. This puts us over the cap.

3) Sign two more decent shooting free agents with the $8M MLE exception and the biannual exception

4) Draft shooters

5) Try to trade Tyson and Dudley but if not then waive them outright. Their leadership is not working and they shouldn't be taking any game time or practice time from our players in the rebuild. Sarver needs to step up to the plate and eat their salary this year.

6) Waive Ulis. Keep Reed or one of our second round rookies after training camp. Sign the others as two-way players.

Roster size will be just right and Suns will be over the cap by $10M but not a tax payer.

Payton/Knight/1st round Rookie
Booker/Daniels/2nd round Rookie or Reed
Jackson/Warren/FA
FA/1st round Rookie/Chriss
Bender/Williams/FA

Everybody competes for playing time and may the best man win.

If there wasn't a good possibility of using Dudley and/or Chandler's contracts to swap for a longer term contract next season along with a pick or something, then I'd be all for just waiving them. They'd still get their money and open up roster spots. But if Booker signs his extension this summer, using their contracts plus a pick are probably the best ways to get someone if it appears we may not have much for cap space in 2019.

However, I just did some work in the Capulator to see how much we'd have in 2019 if we just use our picks, sign Elfrid Payton to like a 3/27 deal (it could be less, but we'll see), and even if Booker signed his max extension it looks like we'd have cap space in 2019. But not if we sign anyone other than Payton this year (unless it's only a 1 year deal).

If you look at my roster here, I just made our three first round picks in the next two years, signed Payton, and kept our unguaranteed guys...it leaves us with about $2 million in cap space (2nd round picks are not included but they would not be guaranteed in 2nd years anyway...or shouldn't be).

But if we let Williams, Ulis and maybe even Reed go after 18-19, that would clear like $8 million more, and if we stretched Knight, it would clear over $10 million more to give us $20 million. We could also get rid of someone else then if they are not panning out...but we could probably fairly easily have quite a bit of cap space in 2019 even with an early Booker extension.

See 2019-20 column and only pay attention to the names on the left with dollars in the 19-20 column.

http://www.shamsports.com/capulator?id=15448564425a83bb6739547177462637

thanks for posting this - so yes when Booker signs that extension is huge. If he signs it now - the Suns do have to use Chandler, Dudley, Heat pick, Bucks pick, Williams (not guaranteed) , Daniels ad Ulis to make a trade. If Booker holds off - than I think the team has flexibility. It shows about 5.1m of cap space left over - maybe enough to get Hezonja on a one year deal - meaning SHOOTER!!!

But, if Booker signs the extension now to lock in the dollars - Dudley Chandler, Daniels and Sauce are good contracts to have to make a trade this year - just not sure who for. Other than Love - I don't see a match. Granted with the way the Cavs are playing with these new players - hmm, wonder if Love becomes odd man out especially if LeBron leaves.

But I was talking about the following year, because a Booker extension has nothing with cap space until 2019. Even if he signs it we still have a little bit of cap space, keeping our firsts, unless maybe Milwaukee's conveys, and cutting Williams, Ulis and Reed could bring us to 10 and stretching Knight brings us over 20. Cut another guy in blue over 25 even. But even with over 20 it seems like it would be fairly easy to create close to max space, especially for a RFA in the summer of 19 even with the extension.

But if Booker waits until after we sign a FA in 2019, we could have around $35 million easily without cutting or trading any 1st rounder young guy.

[bwgood77]

Curry is not an average defender. You could see that again yesterday. It’s just of little importance to overall Dubs D so people tend to overrate that aspect of his game.

No, one does not simply pass on a guy like Trae. Picking a guy like Jackson or Bamba ahead of him is pure madness in todays NBA.

I think there is a consensus that Doncic>Young and it is right. Ayton looks like a close one too. You could make an argument for Porter also based on his hs play and bball tools, but for guys like Jackson/Bagley/Bamba it is impossible, imo. I get all this cautiousness after Fultz case, but such an extreme downplaying of Young’s achievements and pushing him so low is beyond me.

Just to play the devils advocate a bit... Trae has missed his last 16 (!!!) 3 pointer attempt- 3PT% down to 37% now.
Oklahoma 2-7 in their last games and Young has 66 assists to 58 turnovers in those games. Is that Jimmerish? What if he goes even lower against Texas and Kansas this week?
So yeah, the lottery is still a crapshot. The good news is we might get Young with the 4-5th pick with a bit of luck.

Watched the game on ESPN tonight teams are putting a long defender on him which he is struggling to adjust against. He is a little guy very slight build its going to take him a few years to fill out not saying he won't but those that think he is going to come in and light the nba up not happening.

Nothing is a sure thing as far as that goes. In the NBA he won't be teams' primary focus and he's also just a freshman guard. He was doing it with ease before teams could specifically gear their defense on him which won't happen in the NBA. But the slump is a bit discouraging. But I think he was likely always going to be there at 4-7 or so and was a good option somewhere in that range for sure. I still like him far better than any PG last year. Way better shooter and passer (except maybe Ball in that respect) than any of them.

[bigfoot]

with the amount of blow outs this year and the bad 5 or so years... Suns have actually became a joke of a team. Not as bad as Kings or even Magic (since they've been giving away good young players)... or 76ers at their worst.

76ers atleast with Simmons and Embiid and a good off-season last year (Redick etc), they're on the upswing and will get FAs considering them.


Suns need to start being competitive... losing isnt an issue.. but getting blown out is. If the game is close, the youth play really hard... but when they're losing by 30 or so points, you can tell everyone just wants to go home.... and thats bad. That can have a resentful feeling around the team... but having a competitive team that is within striking distance... this MOTIVATES young players. They have that "We'll get them next time" attitude... rather than the "We suck bad" when they lose by 30+ points.

Triano is doing the team injustice by letting games get blown out by that much.
He should slow down the game and grind out the rest of the game... I would instruct the team to use up all 24 seconds offensively and then focus on defense... FULL COURT pressure.... take out players who dont try.

I think a big factor in the blow out problem is the suns are getting nothing from their highest paid players. They are paying Chandler and Dudley around $25M per year to be stabilizing vets but they simply aren't good and actually contribute to getting blown out as much as the kids. It's pretty amazing how little the Suns are getting out of all their vet money; Knight and Williams haven't played, Monroes stunk then got bought out, and Dudley and Chandler are pretty much retired. Even rebuilding teams have to spend so should have some useful vets helping the process but the Suns are getting almost nothing from anyone not on a rookie contract.

Yep realistically in this rebuild Suns should have capable starting vet PF and vet C with backup young players. Then when youngsters are legit ready move them to the starting lineup. Instead we have two young PFs in front of Fdudley and three old, broken, or hands-of-stone C's with no youngster is sight. Bender can start at C and plays well but Fdudley or Chriss starting at PF is just plain wrong.

[bwgood77]

Suns are now generally viewed by basketball fans as having the third worst front office only trailing the Magic and Kings.

I don't know about the Magic. Their FO is brand new and has a good reputation. They built the Bucks into a perennial lottery team into a playoff team with a superstar. It seems you worry too much about what other fans think though.

[BobbieL]

Spoiler:

If there wasn't a good possibility of using Dudley and/or Chandler's contracts to swap for a longer term contract next season along with a pick or something, then I'd be all for just waiving them. They'd still get their money and open up roster spots. But if Booker signs his extension this summer, using their contracts plus a pick are probably the best ways to get someone if it appears we may not have much for cap space in 2019.

However, I just did some work in the Capulator to see how much we'd have in 2019 if we just use our picks, sign Elfrid Payton to like a 3/27 deal (it could be less, but we'll see), and even if Booker signed his max extension it looks like we'd have cap space in 2019. But not if we sign anyone other than Payton this year (unless it's only a 1 year deal).

If you look at my roster here, I just made our three first round picks in the next two years, signed Payton, and kept our unguaranteed guys...it leaves us with about $2 million in cap space (2nd round picks are not included but they would not be guaranteed in 2nd years anyway...or shouldn't be).

But if we let Williams, Ulis and maybe even Reed go after 18-19, that would clear like $8 million more, and if we stretched Knight, it would clear over $10 million more to give us $20 million. We could also get rid of someone else then if they are not panning out...but we could probably fairly easily have quite a bit of cap space in 2019 even with an early Booker extension.

See 2019-20 column and only pay attention to the names on the left with dollars in the 19-20 column.

http://www.shamsports.com/capulator?id=15448564425a83bb6739547177462637

thanks for posting this - so yes when Booker signs that extension is huge. If he signs it now - the Suns do have to use Chandler, Dudley, Heat pick, Bucks pick, Williams (not guaranteed) , Daniels ad Ulis to make a trade. If Booker holds off - than I think the team has flexibility. It shows about 5.1m of cap space left over - maybe enough to get Hezonja on a one year deal - meaning SHOOTER!!!

But, if Booker signs the extension now to lock in the dollars - Dudley Chandler, Daniels and Sauce are good contracts to have to make a trade this year - just not sure who for. Other than Love - I don't see a match. Granted with the way the Cavs are playing with these new players - hmm, wonder if Love becomes odd man out especially if LeBron leaves.

But I was talking about the following year, because a Booker extension has nothing with cap space until 2019. Even if he signs it we still have a little bit of cap space, keeping our firsts, unless maybe Milwaukee's conveys, and cutting Williams, Ulis and Reed could bring us to 10 and stretching Knight brings us over 20. Cut another guy in blue over 25 even. But even with over 20 it seems like it would be fairly easy to create close to max space, especially for a RFA in the summer of 19 even with the extension.

But if Booker waits until after we sign a FA in 2019, we could have around $35 million easily without cutting or trading any 1st rounder young guy.

Even if I didn't convey my message correctly - I think we are on the same page. I think I am more on board with keeping both draft picks this summer; trying to get Payton on board for like you state, the MLE ish range ($8m +/-) and than signing a guy for a smaller amount 6-7m ( I can waive Ulis to give a bit more this summer). But if things go in the right order - the Suns like you said could have a lot of space depending on the Booker deal/

I am not opposed to dumping Daniels on somebody to open up 3m; or waiving Sauce to save 5m - both this summer - I just don't know the players to do that for. Whereas summer of 2019 - that class is deeper.

[WeekapaugGroove]

I know some of these creative extension scenarios with booker sound good in theory but its not going to happen. The first big extension is a life changing amount of money and no player or anyone advising them will do anything but want to get that done as soon as its available. Theres a reason no player has EVER turned down a max rookie extension.

Its easy for us fans to say 'just wait and sign that extension in the summer of 19' but when you have the chance to guarantee yourself over $100mil you do it. Lifes unpredictable and injuries happen its just too big of a risk to ask of a guy.

If they beleive in booker you just get it done this summer. I know these aren't exactly the same circumstances but a couple teams in recent history have hurt themselves with messing around extending stars. Love was pissed they wouldn't give him the 5 year max and that started his eventual leaving. Gordon hayward would still be under contract with the jazz had they extended him instead of letting him hit RFA and matching his deal.

[bwoolf2]

Just to play the devils advocate a bit... Trae has missed his last 16 (!!!) 3 pointer attempt- 3PT% down to 37% now.
Oklahoma 2-7 in their last games and Young has 66 assists to 58 turnovers in those games. Is that Jimmerish? What if he goes even lower against Texas and Kansas this week?
So yeah, the lottery is still a crapshot. The good news is we might get Young with the 4-5th pick with a bit of luck.

Watched the game on ESPN tonight teams are putting a long defender on him which he is struggling to adjust against. He is a little guy very slight build its going to take him a few years to fill out not saying he won't but those that think he is going to come in and light the nba up not happening.

Nothing is a sure thing as far as that goes. In the NBA he won't be teams' primary focus and he's also just a freshman guard. He was doing it with ease before teams could specifically gear their defense on him which won't happen in the NBA. But the slump is a big discouraging. But I think he was likely always going to be there at 4-7 or so and was a good option somewhere in that range for sure. I still like him far better than any PG last year. Way better shooter and passer (except maybe Ball here) than any of them.

How many players come out of college as freshmen that really play well in the NBA? its just not many and how many of those that play well dont have an NBA "body" so far its none. Can it happen maybe but all im saying is its not likely and like with all of these guys you are drafting you need to give them 3 years to develop they are basically high school kids so dont assume they are going to come in and help turn a franchise around right away because the odds are thats not happening.

[Revived]

Suns are now generally viewed by basketball fans as having the third worst front office only trailing the Magic and Kings.

I don't know about the Magic. Their FO is brand new and has a good reputation. They built the Bucks into a perennial lottery team into a playoff team with a superstar. It seems you worry too much about what other fans think though.

More so than other fans, I care about the general reputation about the Suns which just is not good at the moment.

And you’d be surprised but many don’t like the new Magic front office starting with the Payton trade. But you’re right, I don’t think many realize that the people in charge now weren’t responsible for Oladipo and Harris trades.

[Revived]

How many players come out of college as freshmen that really play well in the NBA? its just not many and how many of those that play well dont have an NBA "body" so far its none. Can it happen maybe but all im saying is its not likely and like with all of these guys you are drafting you need to give them 3 years to develop they are basically high school kids so dont assume they are going to come in and help turn a franchise around right away because the odds are thats not happening.

You’re on the money here. This is why I don’t understand the thing NBA teams love about drafting such young prospects so early. At the end of the day, you will get the same quality production from them regardless (because freshmen likely won’t give you any quality production in their first 2-3 years anyway) so why not go for the player that’s already ready to contribute right away and can still improve?

Only reason to do this is if you truly think the young freshmen player has a ceiling that’s significantly higher than the older upperclassman player.

[Qwigglez]

I know some of these creative extension scenarios with booker sound good in theory but its not going to happen. The first big extension is a life changing amount of money and no player or anyone advising them will do anything but want to get that done as soon as its available. Theres a reason no player has EVER turned down a max rookie extension.

If they beleive in booker you just get it done this summer. I know these aren't exactly the same circumstances but a couple teams in recent history have hurt themselves with messing around extending stars. Love was pissed they wouldn't give him the 5 year max and that started his eventual leaving. Gordon hayward would still be under contract with the jazz had they extended him instead of letting him hit RFA and matching his deal.

Pretty sure Kawhi did just that after looking into it several weeks ago. It really depends on how Booker feels about this roster and how confident he is in management.
The front office could approach Booker and break down the cap space and availability of players in 2019. We could just sign Payton to a one year deal and have him expire next season too to go after the big fish in free agency.
There's a lot of big names next off-season and we won't be able to go after any of them if Booker signs his extension this summer.
Booker could easily just say no and want his extension this summer, and if so then we better make moves and or just give someone a one year deal worth 10mil, giving us three expiring contract of 30mil combined.

[Qwigglez]

How many players come out of college as freshmen that really play well in the NBA? its just not many and how many of those that play well dont have an NBA "body" so far its none. Can it happen maybe but all im saying is its not likely and like with all of these guys you are drafting you need to give them 3 years to develop they are basically high school kids so dont assume they are going to come in and help turn a franchise around right away because the odds are thats not happening.

You’re on the money here. This is why I don’t understand the thing NBA teams love about drafting such young prospects so early. At the end of the day, you will get the same quality production from them regardless (because freshmen likely won’t give you any quality production in their first 2-3 years anyway) so why not go for the player that’s already ready to contribute right away and can still improve?

Only reason to do this is if you truly think the young freshmen player has a ceiling that’s significantly higher than the older upperclassman player.

Hield was suppose to be ready from day one and he doesn't look any better this season than last. I don't even think he's a part of their future more than Bogdon is since Bogdon starts last time I checked.
It's hard to get young 20 year olds and younger to be able to contribute at the highest level, but we are seeing it almost every year. Front office should hire a retired FBI agent that expertises in psychological behavior and help with the interview process during the draft. Maybe they can pinpoint some mental behavior that indicates what players simply want it more and aren't just fluff talking. Or maybe I'm just watching too many tv shows.

[WeekapaugGroove]

I know some of these creative extension scenarios with booker sound good in theory but its not going to happen. The first big extension is a life changing amount of money and no player or anyone advising them will do anything but want to get that done as soon as its available. Theres a reason no player has EVER turned down a max rookie extension.

If they beleive in booker you just get it done this summer. I know these aren't exactly the same circumstances but a couple teams in recent history have hurt themselves with messing around extending stars. Love was pissed they wouldn't give him the 5 year max and that started his eventual leaving. Gordon hayward would still be under contract with the jazz had they extended him instead of letting him hit RFA and matching his deal.

Pretty sure Kawhi did just that after looking into it several weeks ago. It really depends on how Booker feels about this roster and how confident he is in management.
The front office could approach Booker and break down the cap space and availability of players in 2019. We could just sign Payton to a one year deal and have him expire next season too to go after the big fish in free agency.
There's a lot of big names next off-season and we won't be able to go after any of them if Booker signs his extension this summer.
Booker could easily just say no and want his extension this summer, and if so then we better make moves and or just give someone a one year deal worth 10mil, giving us three expiring contract of 30mil combined.

Kawhi averaged 13 and 6 his third year. He was far from a no brainer max guy when he was extension eligble. Heck there were even some questions if he was a max guy when he signed that extension after his 4th year.

[Qwigglez]

I know some of these creative extension scenarios with booker sound good in theory but its not going to happen. The first big extension is a life changing amount of money and no player or anyone advising them will do anything but want to get that done as soon as its available. Theres a reason no player has EVER turned down a max rookie extension.

If they beleive in booker you just get it done this summer. I know these aren't exactly the same circumstances but a couple teams in recent history have hurt themselves with messing around extending stars. Love was pissed they wouldn't give him the 5 year max and that started his eventual leaving. Gordon hayward would still be under contract with the jazz had they extended him instead of letting him hit RFA and matching his deal.

Pretty sure Kawhi did just that after looking into it several weeks ago. It really depends on how Booker feels about this roster and how confident he is in management.
The front office could approach Booker and break down the cap space and availability of players in 2019. We could just sign Payton to a one year deal and have him expire next season too to go after the big fish in free agency.
There's a lot of big names next off-season and we won't be able to go after any of them if Booker signs his extension this summer.
Booker could easily just say no and want his extension this summer, and if so then we better make moves and or just give someone a one year deal worth 10mil, giving us three expiring contract of 30mil combined.

Kawhi averaged 13 and 6 his third year. He was far from a no brainer max guy when he was extension eligble. Heck there were even some questions if he was a max guy when he signed that extension after his 4th year.

You sure? I'm on my phone so I can't look anything up but u thought he became the youngest player ever to win the Finals MVP and he locked down the Heat. Pretty sure he was worth a max by then.

[bwgood77]

thanks for posting this - so yes when Booker signs that extension is huge. If he signs it now - the Suns do have to use Chandler, Dudley, Heat pick, Bucks pick, Williams (not guaranteed) , Daniels ad Ulis to make a trade. If Booker holds off - than I think the team has flexibility. It shows about 5.1m of cap space left over - maybe enough to get Hezonja on a one year deal - meaning SHOOTER!!!

But, if Booker signs the extension now to lock in the dollars - Dudley Chandler, Daniels and Sauce are good contracts to have to make a trade this year - just not sure who for. Other than Love - I don't see a match. Granted with the way the Cavs are playing with these new players - hmm, wonder if Love becomes odd man out especially if LeBron leaves.

But I was talking about the following year, because a Booker extension has nothing with cap space until 2019. Even if he signs it we still have a little bit of cap space, keeping our firsts, unless maybe Milwaukee's conveys, and cutting Williams, Ulis and Reed could bring us to 10 and stretching Knight brings us over 20. Cut another guy in blue over 25 even. But even with over 20 it seems like it would be fairly easy to create close to max space, especially for a RFA in the summer of 19 even with the extension.

But if Booker waits until after we sign a FA in 2019, we could have around $35 million easily without cutting or trading any 1st rounder young guy.

Even if I didn't convey my message correctly - I think we are on the same page. I think I am more on board with keeping both draft picks this summer; trying to get Payton on board for like you state, the MLE ish range ($8m +/-) and than signing a guy for a smaller amount 6-7m ( I can waive Ulis to give a bit more this summer). But if things go in the right order - the Suns like you said could have a lot of space depending on the Booker deal/

I am not opposed to dumping Daniels on somebody to open up 3m; or waiving Sauce to save 5m - both this summer - I just don't know the players to do that for. Whereas summer of 2019 - that class is deeper.

Well it didn't and still doesn't sound like you are on the same page, since you are talking about signing guys this summer, which kills our 19 space...plus we likely have a shortage of roster spots. I don't think with our young guys and our development we should sign anyone...if we sign Payton that is our FA signing. MAYBE we could sign a C for 1 year...with whatever cap space we have but we likely draft one and may have Williams back....and probably Chandler.

[Saberestar]

Suns are now generally viewed by basketball fans as having the third worst front office only trailing the Magic and Kings.

I don't know about the Magic. Their FO is brand new and has a good reputation. They built the Bucks into a perennial lottery team into a playoff team with a superstar. It seems you worry too much about what other fans think though.

In my case, I do not care about what other fans think about our team, I care about facts.

We are 18-40, so we are really bad on the court and we are getting worse and worse every year. Facts. That is why I am not positive about our front office.

[NavLDO]

I seriously doubt we will cut Ulis. Unless we just REALLY need that roster spot or that $1.5 million in cap space is preventing a transaction.

I think we will need the spot more than the money. We have four draft picks, possibly five depending on ending positions. Payton may have changed things, or a healthy mind changed Knight, who we can’t really trade at this point.

Maybe, but if Len walks and we don't re-sign Peters, and even if we keep Reed, Ulis and Williams, that puts us at 13. So we could add two first round picks to our roster and two second round picks as two way players.

We actually have five picks, unless that Milwaukee pick lands at 17/47. So we could trade one of the other later seconds if we want for a future 2nd. Always good to have an additional second in your pocket the following year if you want to make the type of trade we just did.

And you never know; say we get our typical lottery luck, and we end up with, say, the 4th pick, and Ayton, Doncic go 1 - 2, McD may decide he really wants Bagley... potential exists he convinces team at 3rd overall to take Heat pick and a 2nd to move up...

Of course, there are tons of scenarios, but point is, we may only walk away with 2-3 picks when it's all said and done. McD may find all sorts of ways to consolidate, because he needs to win next year, I think. I don't think he gets another year, is my feeling, so I almost wonder if he goes after more NBA ready talent this draft. It'll be interesting to see.

[WeekapaugGroove]

Pretty sure Kawhi did just that after looking into it several weeks ago. It really depends on how Booker feels about this roster and how confident he is in management.
The front office could approach Booker and break down the cap space and availability of players in 2019. We could just sign Payton to a one year deal and have him expire next season too to go after the big fish in free agency.
There's a lot of big names next off-season and we won't be able to go after any of them if Booker signs his extension this summer.
Booker could easily just say no and want his extension this summer, and if so then we better make moves and or just give someone a one year deal worth 10mil, giving us three expiring contract of 30mil combined.

Kawhi averaged 13 and 6 his third year. He was far from a no brainer max guy when he was extension eligble. Heck there were even some questions if he was a max guy when he signed that extension after his 4th year.

You sure? I'm on my phone so I can't look anything up but u thought he became the youngest player ever to win the Finals MVP and he locked down the Heat. Pretty sure he was worth a max by then.

You're right it was after his 3rd year that he won the finals MVP... I thought that was after the 4th year but was wrong.

[BobbieL]

But I was talking about the following year, because a Booker extension has nothing with cap space until 2019. Even if he signs it we still have a little bit of cap space, keeping our firsts, unless maybe Milwaukee's conveys, and cutting Williams, Ulis and Reed could bring us to 10 and stretching Knight brings us over 20. Cut another guy in blue over 25 even. But even with over 20 it seems like it would be fairly easy to create close to max space, especially for a RFA in the summer of 19 even with the extension.

But if Booker waits until after we sign a FA in 2019, we could have around $35 million easily without cutting or trading any 1st rounder young guy.

Even if I didn't convey my message correctly - I think we are on the same page. I think I am more on board with keeping both draft picks this summer; trying to get Payton on board for like you state, the MLE ish range ($8m +/-) and than signing a guy for a smaller amount 6-7m ( I can waive Ulis to give a bit more this summer). But if things go in the right order - the Suns like you said could have a lot of space depending on the Booker deal/

I am not opposed to dumping Daniels on somebody to open up 3m; or waiving Sauce to save 5m - both this summer - I just don't know the players to do that for. Whereas summer of 2019 - that class is deeper.

Well it didn't and still doesn't sound like you are on the same page, since you are talking about signing guys this summer, which kills our 19 space...plus we likely have a shortage of roster spots. I don't think with our young guys and our development we should sign anyone...if we sign Payton that is our FA signing. MAYBE we could sign a C for 1 year...with whatever cap space we have but we likely draft one and may have Williams back....and probably Chandler.

How is signing Mario Hezonja for one year for 7m kill our cap space?

Your Capulator showed 5.1m in cap space I do believe - and if you waive Ulis - that's almost 7m dollars. And really if you have Booker, Knight, Payton - you don't need Ulis if you can use his 1.5m better this summer.