Trade Discussion

[saintEscaton]

Cant you guys just wait and see how these draft deals turn out before you crown McDarth the F-n Yoda of Drafting? We have given/traded away significant talent for future picks. Odds say less than 50% turn out. Probaly less than 30% And I'd say the last 6 picks... he's maybe 2 of 6 ???

Given the stumbling McDeneyTerrio has displayed in free agency, he can't afford to miss come draft day. I really don't have an idea on what he intends to do with Bled, Knight, Goodwin, anyone not named Booker ... I can't quite grasp 'who' our core 'is' ? But adding the #1 would sure clear things up.

Riiight but you can blame him left and right and every other which way for trading the LAL pick, even though that deal obviously hasn't worked out yet. I hate more than anything when people like you come in with an obvious bias and twist things towards that bias no matter what. What the hell is an intellectually dishonest person like you doing in a place meant for rational open-minded debate anyway?!

Sick burn

[bwgood77]

I don't see the parallels with Minny, they have a surefire franchise player/ possibly the second coming of Timmy D in KAT + a star sidekick in Wiggins. Dieng is basically an older version of Len, and Lavine is basically what we want Archie to becom. I see it with Utah, Hayward was picked #9 which is late lotto and yeah we didn't have a shot at him because 2010 was our last year of relevance, we passed up Hood for Ennis and he is arguably more of a steal than TJ. Gobert has already established himself as the best rim protector in the league, and in a re-draft of 2013 Len would be maybe the 4th or 5th center taken. after Adams or Olynk. Didn't count Favors cauz he was acquired via the Derron Williams trade from Brooklyn.

We had a great shot of drafting Hayward if our damn GM didn't trade an unconditional pick to dump Googs. Thanks a lot Sarver!!! Oh wait, that wasn't him.

Yeah that was one of JC's worst moves that gets often overlooked

I never really agreed with signing Googs and Longley in the first place. Seemed like panic moves after losing McDyess. I remember Longley particularly was terrible and he got a HUGE contract at the time like 6/35 or something and I wanted Vlade who was on the market for much less...think he signed with Sacramento for like 3/10 or something and was integral part to their great teams from 99-04.

Colangelo's ultimately made the same mistake again later by signing Q instead of just inking JJ and keeping draft pick that year. I know I've mentioned this a ton, and I'm not sure if Sarver had any say on this while in process of buying team. JC made tons of bad moves....DJ for Robey, Majerle for Hot Rod (though many fans were calling him blunder Dan before that).

But the good thing for Jerry, is that he had such a solid reputation that we were never down for long. With Sarver, it appears the opposite has taken hold.

[blacksun]

Ryan is "a bit" above average on drafts. He's been about 50-50 on his drafts. I wouldn't say he is great but I wouldn't say he is bad.

Great pick- Booker

Decent picks- Warren, Len

Just below decent picks- Archie


Bad picks- Brown, Ennis

(The foreigner doesn't count yet)

But with that said.....in 20 years the Spurs have only drafted 4 maybe 5 good players and one of the greatest players in Duncan (but to be honest every team wanted Duncan). The only memorial picks the Spurs have drafted are Manu, Parker, and Kwahi. Yet the Spurs are hailed as this great drafting team.

Point is unless your picking in the top 3, the rest are a huge crap shoot. Ryan has been decent but even the greatest GMs whiff on drafts.

Cmon Ryan isn't decent. Sure he's been worthless in the Free Agent market and his trades arent all perfect, but at least concede that McD is a good drafter, above average in fact.

He only really missed on one, Ennis, but that was supposedly done to pressure TOR. Len is decent, and sure we could have picked up Giannis or Gobert, but were doing it on the benefit of hindsight. Calling the Archie below decent is absurd. And in my opinion there are no bad second round picks, only good ones, so Brown doesnt count.

[bwgood77]

Ryan is "a bit" above average on drafts. He's been about 50-50 on his drafts. I wouldn't say he is great but I wouldn't say he is bad.

Great pick- Booker

Decent picks- Warren, Len

Just below decent picks- Archie


Bad picks- Brown, Ennis

(The foreigner doesn't count yet)

But with that said.....in 20 years the Spurs have only drafted 4 maybe 5 good players and one of the greatest players in Duncan (but to be honest every team wanted Duncan). The only memorial picks the Spurs have drafted are Manu, Parker, and Kwahi. Yet the Spurs are hailed as this great drafting team.

Point is unless your picking in the top 3, the rest are a huge crap shoot. Ryan has been decent but even the greatest GMs whiff on drafts.

Cmon Ryan isn't decent. Sure he's been worthless in the Free Agent market and his trades arent all perfect, but at least concede that McD is a good drafter, above average in fact.

He only really missed on one, Ennis, but that was supposedly done to pressure TOR. Len is decent, and sure we could have picked up Giannis or Gobert, but were doing it on the benefit of hindsight. Calling the Archie below decent is absurd. And in my opinion there are no bad second round picks, only good ones, so Brown doesnt count.

I'm fine with McD drafting mostly because that is his background and he hasn't made any picks that look like HUGE mistakes, though the Ennis one could have probably netted us a pretty good player.

But as I mentioned earlier, you'd have to go through all the teams and look at it to determine where he is in the "best drafting GM" rankings. Most of the teams around us have drafted pretty well, and many of the playoff caliber teams are there in some part to drafting well, and using those players on their team or trading them for players on their team.

I trust McD to some extent, and I hope he has learned from mistakes. I think moves he made ultimately cost Hornacek his job, who I think got the shaft due to bad roster construction or mgmt pissing off players. But just like I didn't want to have a revolving coach, I don't want to have a revolving GM either.

[oddity]

Cant you guys just wait and see how these draft deals turn out before you crown McDarth the F-n Yoda of Drafting? We have given/traded away significant talent for future picks. Odds say less than 50% turn out. Probaly less than 30% And I'd say the last 6 picks... he's maybe 2 of 6 ???

Given the stumbling McDeneyTerrio has displayed in free agency, he can't afford to miss come draft day. I really don't have an idea on what he intends to do with Bled, Knight, Goodwin, anyone not named Booker ... I can't quite grasp 'who' our core 'is' ? But adding the #1 would sure clear things up.

Riiight but you can blame him left and right and every other which way for trading the LAL pick, even though that deal obviously hasn't worked out yet. I hate more than anything when people like you come in with an obvious bias and twist things towards that bias no matter what. What the hell is an intellectually dishonest person like you doing in a place meant for rational open-minded debate anyway?!

Sick burn

Not even meant as that. I just wanna have an unbiased debate with someone based on facts. If the facts don't back up your point conceed, instead of coming up with this half-assed "Ohh we can't judge yet" bs that's only meant to sidetrack the conversation. Everyone on here knows that if this trade was worse for us Frank as well as anyone else here w a bias would jump on it. We can and should talk about whether Ryan is a good GM or not, but just because that conversation seems to be swinging in a direction you don't want it go in doesn't mean you can avoid talking about it. There's no reason why we can't give McD credit for this other than this lazy intellectually dishonest horse-you-know-what. Let's talk about FACTS. And this is coming from a guy who's been defending as well as critical of everyone from the coach to the managemen to the players.

[Frank Lee]

haha....after several gin and tonics...this team, even healthy is not good. have at it lovers... i don't hate, you guys just are panty wadded so tight that any thought other than rainbows and ice cream seems like nails and barbwire.

[Frank Lee]

tell me jack wads, what team has done worse over the past three years???? The nets ? The sixers ? nice company to be in eh? oooo, but we have miami's pick 3 yrs from now.... ooooo

reality sucks sometimes

[Mulhollanddrive]

Maybe Markieff wasn't playing bad on purpose!

Apart from our 1st dream season, he's been a terrible player!

And that's not going to change by shooting contested 18 footers as a career.

Thanks Wizards.

[Frank Lee]

btw oddity.... what facts have i infringed upon ? I state draft picks are less than 50/50... may be more like 30/70... but that is a biased opinion ? Who exactly have we drafted that is locked in as a starter...certainly not 3 yr project Len or Goodwin. please tell me, for i want to sleep tonight knowing that our future core is set with our future picks. ....



in with three posts in a row.


good night


ps..... damn it mulholland

[RaisingArizona]

tell me jack wads, what team has done worse over the past three years???? The nets ? The sixers ? nice company to be in eh? oooo, but we have miami's pick 3 yrs from now.... ooooo

reality sucks sometimes

Who said we've been good over the past three years?

[oddity]

btw oddity.... what facts have i infringed upon ? I state draft picks are less than 50/50... may be more like 30/70... but that is a biased opinion ? Who exactly have we drafted that is locked in as a starter...certainly not 3 yr project Len or Goodwin. please tell me, for i want to sleep tonight knowing that our future core is set with our future picks. ....

K

in with three posts in a row.


good night


ps..... damn it mulholland

Easier Booker is a locked in starter and both Warren and Len can be. My problem isn't your overall arguement - I actually agree with a few of your points - but the one-sideness and hypocrisy you go about it. Trading the Lakers pick has a been a huge stick used by you and others on this board to beat the management with, but when it's turned the other way around you want to try and hold judgement, hoping the player drafted doesn't work out so you can say it's no big deal. That's not how it works. We can most definitely judge trades before they "work out" based on the situation and overall outlook of the teams involved at the time. Going back and talking about who won a trade years in advance is called Monday morning quarterbacking.

This all stems from the problem that is your reluctance to give any credit o positivity towards the FO. I agree that this team has been in a bad spot over the last few years, and mistakes have been made, but to recognize the bad must also mean to recognize the good, and just doing one is a biased approach. As much as you might hate to admit, the teams outlook now is much better than when McD first stepped into his position, w/ a future all-star level prospect in Booker and a few solid future picks down the line, as well as Bledsoe and Knight. Whether you wanna argue that or not is a different subject entirely, but I mean to say that there is good out there. Please stop trying your best not to see it, as it's poisoning your arguments with bias.

[sunsbum]

Maybe Markieff wasn't playing bad on purpose!

Apart from our 1st dream season, he's been a terrible player!

And that's not going to change by shooting contested 18 footers as a career.

Thanks Wizards.

I dunno about that. Our team looked like we were ready to win some games with keef in the starting lineup before the allstar break.

[Damkac]

I feel like some people here would only be pleased if McD would turn this team into contender in his first year.
When Suns tried to make the playoffs it was bad.
Now Suns are tanking and it's even worse.

Not saying McD didn't make mistakes but some of you have some unreal expectations.

BTW that .gif is pretty psychodelic

[Mulhollanddrive]

Markieff's last games with us is turning into some heroic myth.

He started the last 5 games with us, all were at home, we lost them all, by 6 to 16 points - Bad Team Results.

He scored over 19 points twice, and shot over 50% once, and had 5+ turnovers in 3 of them - OK, Poor, Poor.

5 game total - Offensive Rating 102, Defensive Rating 113, True Shooting % .516 - Each Below League Average.

How good could they possibly have been, I watched them all too.

[Saberestar]

McDonough said he hoped trading Morris would bring a “breath of fresh air” to the franchise.

“I understand the fans want to feel connected to the team and the community,” McDonough said. “Over the past eight months, I feel like with him in particular, we’ve lost a bit of that connection. That was a factor. It wasn’t the overwhelming factor. He’s a talented player on a good contract who’s in his prime and we weren’t going to give him away.”

“I’m the Last of the Mohicans,” Tucker said. “With the guys I’ve seen come through these doors, it’s unbelievable to be the one guy. I was the 15th guy on that (2012-13) roster. The last guy. For me to still be here is absolutely crazy.

“As much as we’ve struggled and gone through what we’ve gone through with ups and downs over the years, I’m still in Phoenix. Still in one of the top-five destinations in the NBA. Hopeful that things will come around, guys will get healthy and we make some right moves to put us back in the playoffs.”

McDonough’s belief is that one of those right moves was to not trade Tucker, who drew interest form other teams. The two-time Majerle Hustle Award winner embodies what the Suns want in a player’s drive, along with versatile, elite defense and a contract that pays him $5.3 million next season ($3.8 million of which is guaranteed).
“He’s one guy we look at as an example for how hard you should play every night and the kind of toughness and edge you should bring to the game,” McDonough said.

http://www.azcentral.com/story/sports/nba/suns/2016/02/19/pj-tucker-crazy-most-tenured-phoenix-suns-player/80648750/

[carey]

I just wanna have an unbiased debate with someone based on facts. I

What are we? Journalists? You can't have an unbiased debate on a fan forum. If "fan" is short for fanatic and we are all fanatic about the Suns then the idea you'll get an unbiased argument out of any one person here is kind of ludicrous.

[Sunsdeuce]

I just wanna have an unbiased debate with someone based on facts. I

What are we? Journalists? You can't have an unbiased debate on a fan forum. If "fan" is short for fanatic and we are all fanatic about the Suns then the idea you'll get an unbiased argument out of any one person here is kind of ludicrous.

Exactly "facts" mean something different to each person. Shoot, Trump thinks it's fact that a million dollar loan is a "small" loan. While Other people don't see million dollars as "small." Facts are in the eye of the beholder.

[Frank Lee]

Easier Booker is a locked in starter and both Warren and Len can be. .....

Now sober.... I am not going comb through your post in NavLo fashion .... just this statement about a starting core...the 'Can be' caveat is insulation from reality. Locked in? You sure?

Right now, Booker starts by default. Would he keep his place when healthy Bled and Knight return ? My guess, yes, especially if the marketing department has anything to say about it. He makes the trade for Knight look even worse. (whoops, I did it again) But, you got me there. I am biased with Knightmare. Seems one of Bled or BK needs to be shipped. And if they need to be shipped, will they will get the starter treatment to amplify their perceived worth? (Sound familiar) But yes... Its Booker's job to lose. 90% chance he starts next season. This place will meltdown if not.

Len, the anointed future center ? He a brittle and has regressed. What was the logic again behind signing Chandler??? Are you sure it was about signing LMA? But yet, Len is the future starter??? One nagging injury after another. Surgeries at this young age ? I think he is heading to be a tall guy back up. I still have hope because he has yet to ever play with a true PG, well, may be Dragic, but we know how that turned out. If he can't stay healthy, he isn't part of any core. (Same goes for Bled) BTW, any bets he will be shelved for the season with that bum ankle ? Is it the same problematic one? Not a bad pick, as there were not many in that draft that have impacted teams.... except a couple centers taken later (Adams, Gobert) Len as a starter next season? ....<50% Due to health as much as talent.. big guys with bad wheels don't turn out well.

And Warren? Could be a starter ? Read this forum... 2 months ago he was a future all star... he put together a few good games... then the word got out. He can't cover any SFs, and is not a PF. A good scoring kind of tweener forward. We've seen several come out of college who had a difficult transition to the speed and athleticism you see nightly in the NBA. He is a 7-8th man in my book. Not a bad pick, but again, not one of my cornerstones. 0 % chance to start next yr. Well, 1% if Tucker is traded. and we don't draft Ingram or JBrown

Thank goodness you are not on the Archie train. Kid needs 2-3 more years of work. Fortunately, he has the time. But so did DJ Strawberry

So there... you have it... my biased assessment. Sorry to pizz in the hopeful youthmovemt cheerios...sorry if I'm not bandwagoning with the McDazzle love. Its very difficult to rebuild by Draft only... yet, it seems that is the path, for now. this draft is so important. Its sadly, what our season boils down to. Finally, a full blown tank. We should be landing a starter, but there is no certainties come draft day. GDit, just get the #1 for a change. At least there is no coin flip.

I just wanna have an unbiased debate with someone based on facts. I

What are we? Journalists? You can't have an unbiased debate on a fan forum. If "fan" is short for fanatic and we are all fanatic about the Suns then the idea you'll get an unbiased argument out of any one person here is kind of ludicrous.

[oddity]

I just wanna have an unbiased debate with someone based on facts. I

What are we? Journalists? You can't have an unbiased debate on a fan forum. If "fan" is short for fanatic and we are all fanatic about the Suns then the idea you'll get an unbiased argument out of any one person here is kind of ludicrous.

That's not an excuse to throw out lazy, emotional, and biased answers. Yes of course we're all biased in some way, but I would love it if we can control that bias to the extent that facts override it. For instance, as an obvious example, nobody is making the argument that this Suns team is making the playoffs, because this team is factually so so bad that you would have to be a lunatic to argue otherwise. We must curb our biases in lieu of facts, because facts are more important than emotion. You can believe that this team has no future and that our GM can't McDoAnythingRight, but that alone doesn't make it so. Bring along facts to support your argument, and if you don't have facts, you're operating just on bias.

[Frank Lee]

Its a circle isn't it.... Where are any facts about any 'projected' player? Any protected pick? Stats do back up the odds against finding a diamond in the rough, or just even a precious stone. Stats do say the further down you pick, the less likely you are to even find a starter. Just look and see. Stats say you bank on the draft to improve and you will have a delayed return, if any. McDoOver has a small sample size of drafting... and the odds say that the more he selects, the closer he will come to the standard returns. But are these facts or stats? Is he really some talent scout wizard ? BTW, can't any good statistician back up his argument right or wrong ?

I have come to terms with this team/organization. We realistically are back to square one with playoff hopes. We have some nice assets, but once again, it looks like we will go into the next year with more than half a locker room of new guys. The standard preachy lecture of how we are positioned better than we were three years is moot...AS WE DAMN WELL SHOULD BE BETTER. You have to make a stand somewhere. I think I'm going to stand over in the shade, and just let these Suns set. Too much has to shake out before anyone can see clearly where we are. Call me lazy or emotional, I really don't care, my opinion is one that seems to be shared by at least a few. Fact is, more than 50% of the posters from the past 4-5 yrs aren't participating in this dead end discussion about this disheveled squad.