2022-23 Season Discussion and Review - the Blockbuster trade and playoff downfall

[BobbieL]

I've long been a 'never acquire Kyrie' kind of guy but I'm at the point with Ayton where I might be willing to talk myself into it.

Dealing with his crazy ass might be worth it to never see DA loaf around for the suns again and to not have to discuss him here anymore.

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Pretty much feel the same way about Kyrie but Ayton just is so inconsistent - its annoying

Would the pacers stil want him?

I am sure there will be a small trade market for him - but Kyrie is probably the best player the Suns can get. I guess it depends on if Durant wants to play with him.

[Ghost of Kleine]

I'd still prefer a 2 part trade with Ayton and Paul if simplified in premise:

Ayton- (DALLAS)
Ayton for Irving! Solves the Point guard problem? IF Irving really wants to play with Durant, and is willing to force a trade? I personally don't see them giving up Irving to us even in a potential swap of Ayton for him. They'd likely try to trade for Ayton using some other equivalent package sans Irving with intent to resign him. And at that point, I wouldn't give them Ayton for anything less than a package of Hardaway Jr/ Kleber/ Mcgee/ Hardy/ 10th pick!!!! in this coming draft. But then again, strange things do happen in the NBA after all.


Paul- (LA CLIPPERS)
Paul (Partial guarantee) for Zubac/ Covington/ Coffey? The Clips are currently at 209 million hard capped and repeater tax! Sure they have Gordon's 20 million unguaranteed to reduce tax. But adding Paul would boost those savings to around 35 million. They don't really need Zubac with Plumlee outplaying him at a fraction of the cost, and dropping the 35 million instead of just the 20 million alone would get them under the cap by around 10 million or more after next season!

IF we could do this, then we could field a lineup of:
Irving/Booker/ Covington/ Durant/ Zubac.
Payne/Okogie/ Coffey/ Craig/ Biyombo.
Not my favorite consideration by far. But better than we currently have.

[BobbieL]

I'd still prefer a 2 part trade with Ayton and Paul if simplified in premise:

Ayton- (DALLAS)
Ayton for Irving! Solves the Point guard problem? IF Irving really wants to play with Durant, and is willing to force a trade? I personally don't see them giving up Irving to us even in a potential swap of Ayton for him. But strange things do happen in the NBA after all.


Paul- (LA CLIPPERS)
Paul (Partial guarantee) for Zubac/ Covington/ Coffey? The Clips are currently at 209 million hard capped and repeater tax! Sure they have Gordon's 20 million unguaranteed to reduce tax. But adding Paul would boost those savings to around 35 million. They don't really need Zubac with Plumlee outplaying him at a fraction of the cost, and dropping the 35 million instead of just the 20 million alone would get them under the cap by around 10 million or more after next season!

IF we could do this, then we could field a lineup of:
Irving/Booker/ Covington/ Durant/ Zubac.
Payne/Okogie/ Coffey/ Craig/ Biyombo.
Not my favorite consideration by far. But better than we currently have.

I posted this earlier but was told that in a trade, Paul only counts 15.8m - the guaranteed part of the contract and not the 31.8m in total. As I thought the same thing, a team could trade for Paul, counts 31.8m but waive him and only pay him 15.8. But I think the CBA trade you mention doesn't allow that.

Now: Paul + Payne + Ish (before June 28) - would count as 15.8+2+2 so about 20m - what could the Suns take back -- Zubac, Covington and Coffey - would save the Clippers some money I guess

[WeekapaugGroove]

I've long been a 'never acquire Kyrie' kind of guy but I'm at the point with Ayton where I might be willing to talk myself into it.

Dealing with his crazy ass might be worth it to never see DA loaf around for the suns again and to not have to discuss him here anymore.

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Pretty much feel the same way about Kyrie but Ayton just is so inconsistent - its annoying

Would the pacers stil want him?

I am sure there will be a small trade market for him - but Kyrie is probably the best player the Suns can get. I guess it depends on if Durant wants to play with him.

DA is just unreliable, it's brutal when you don't know what kind of effort you will get from game to game by a max player.

Which is super ironic if they would trade him for Kyrie since he might be the least reliable star ever but in a totally different way. At least when he's on the floor you typically get good play.

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[BobbieL]

I've long been a 'never acquire Kyrie' kind of guy but I'm at the point with Ayton where I might be willing to talk myself into it.

Dealing with his crazy ass might be worth it to never see DA loaf around for the suns again and to not have to discuss him here anymore.

Sent from my SM-G986U using RealGM mobile app

Pretty much feel the same way about Kyrie but Ayton just is so inconsistent - its annoying

Would the pacers stil want him?

I am sure there will be a small trade market for him - but Kyrie is probably the best player the Suns can get. I guess it depends on if Durant wants to play with him.

DA is just unreliable, it's brutal when you don't know what kind of effort you will get from game to game by a max player.

Which is super ironic if they would trade him for Kyrie since he might be the least reliable star ever but in a totally different way. At least when he's on the floor you typically get good play.

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I would take Kyrie and Powell -- if the Mavs wanted to dump him for ShamAyton

I am sure Booker would be fine with Kyrie - whatever helps him win

[Jdiddy701]

I’ve gotten to the point with Ayton where I would rather include DA in a trade for Kyrie, than to get Kyrie without having to give up anything. Anything to get DA and his terrible contract off this team is a huge plus imo.


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[WeekapaugGroove]

Pretty much feel the same way about Kyrie but Ayton just is so inconsistent - its annoying

Would the pacers stil want him?

I am sure there will be a small trade market for him - but Kyrie is probably the best player the Suns can get. I guess it depends on if Durant wants to play with him.

DA is just unreliable, it's brutal when you don't know what kind of effort you will get from game to game by a max player.

Which is super ironic if they would trade him for Kyrie since he might be the least reliable star ever but in a totally different way. At least when he's on the floor you typically get good play.

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I would take Kyrie and Powell -- if the Mavs wanted to dump him for ShamAyton

I am sure Booker would be fine with Kyrie - whatever helps him win

I think if Kyrie comes in with the mindset this is Booker's team then it could work. Hell Devin might be a good influence on him. Can Kyrie think like that? IDK

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[BobbieL]

DA is just unreliable, it's brutal when you don't know what kind of effort you will get from game to game by a max player.

Which is super ironic if they would trade him for Kyrie since he might be the least reliable star ever but in a totally different way. At least when he's on the floor you typically get good play.

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I would take Kyrie and Powell -- if the Mavs wanted to dump him for ShamAyton

I am sure Booker would be fine with Kyrie - whatever helps him win

I think if Kyrie comes in with the mindset this is Booker's team then it could work. Hell Devin might be a good influence on him. Can Kyrie think like that? IDK

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4:01pm ET
July 1, 2024
Woj Bom

The Suns and Mavericks have agreed to a sign and trade.

[Ghost of Kleine]

Pretty much feel the same way about Kyrie but Ayton just is so inconsistent - its annoying

Would the pacers stil want him?

I am sure there will be a small trade market for him - but Kyrie is probably the best player the Suns can get. I guess it depends on if Durant wants to play with him.

DA is just unreliable, it's brutal when you don't know what kind of effort you will get from game to game by a max player.

Which is super ironic if they would trade him for Kyrie since he might be the least reliable star ever but in a totally different way. At least when he's on the floor you typically get good play.

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I would take Kyrie and Powell -- if the Mavs wanted to dump him for ShamAyton

I am sure Booker would be fine with Kyrie - whatever helps him win

Isn't Powell a free agent though?

[Ghost of Kleine]

I'd still prefer a 2 part trade with Ayton and Paul if simplified in premise:

Ayton- (DALLAS)
Ayton for Irving! Solves the Point guard problem? IF Irving really wants to play with Durant, and is willing to force a trade? I personally don't see them giving up Irving to us even in a potential swap of Ayton for him. But strange things do happen in the NBA after all.


Paul- (LA CLIPPERS)
Paul (Partial guarantee) for Zubac/ Covington/ Coffey? The Clips are currently at 209 million hard capped and repeater tax! Sure they have Gordon's 20 million unguaranteed to reduce tax. But adding Paul would boost those savings to around 35 million. They don't really need Zubac with Plumlee outplaying him at a fraction of the cost, and dropping the 35 million instead of just the 20 million alone would get them under the cap by around 10 million or more after next season!

IF we could do this, then we could field a lineup of:
Irving/Booker/ Covington/ Durant/ Zubac.
Payne/Okogie/ Coffey/ Craig/ Biyombo.
Not my favorite consideration by far. But better than we currently have.

I posted this earlier but was told that in a trade, Paul only counts 15.8m - the guaranteed part of the contract and not the 31.8m in total. As I thought the same thing, a team could trade for Paul, counts 31.8m but waive him and only pay him 15.8. But I think the CBA trade you mention doesn't allow that.

Now: Paul + Payne + Ish (before June 28) - would count as 15.8+2+2 so about 20m - what could the Suns take back -- Zubac, Covington and Coffey - would save the Clippers some money I guess

Would definitely need/want clarification on that too because I've not yet heard of that, but the CBA is complicated and restrictive in some situations. I'd have no real issues with your trade variance though as I don't see either Payne or Ish as inclusionary deal breakers for that return. I'd still also like us to consider Toronto in a potential Paul/ Shamet trade If it meant we could return Van Vleet/ Trent/ Porter Jr ? Or Van Vleet/ Boucher/ Porter Jr. I say this because both Trent and Van Vleet will be looking for a generous longer term deal that I surely don't believe the raptors have interest in! And I'd love to replace Paul/ Shamet with Van Vleet and Trent. But IF I had to choose between the two and not both, I'd choose Trent. Maybe a Trent/ Boucher/ Porter Jr for Paul/ Shamet And then they could look to flip Van Vleet elsewhere? We then trade Ayton for Irving? In free agency, I'm looking at Schroder, Dennis Smith Jr, Raul Neto. And for additional center depth, Robin Lopez, Alex Len, Meyers Leonard, Drew Eubanks.

So basically....................................................
- Ayton/ Payne for Irving/ Mcgee.
- Paul/Shamet for Van Vleet/ Trent/ Porter Jr.

Irving/ Booker/ Porter Jr/ Durant/ Mcgee.
Van Vleet/ Trent Jr/ Craig/ Warren/ Biyombo.
Smith Jr/Okogie/ Bates Diop/ Porter Jr/ R Lopez.

FA's-
- Kieta Bates Diop.
- Dennis Smith Jr.
- Robin Lopez.
That's extreme depth and almost certainly a guaranteed championship frontrunner! We can win the Championship next season and then Van Vleet and Trent can go to whatever team they prefer. But at least we'd give both a much better chance at a championship next season than if they stayed with Toronto who's likely tanking now.

[WeekapaugGroove]

Ghost, easy rule of thumb for these. You can't use an option/non-guarantee in a trade to shed money for the team acquiring the guy. They closed that loophole a few years back.

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[BobbieL]

Ghost, easy rule of thumb for these. You can't use an option/non-guarantee in a trade to shed money for the team acquiring the guy. They closed that loophole a few years back.

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Thats why I bring up a deal with the Hornets - but thats if they want to cut salary. Who knows, if Jordan sells the team - maybe the new owner doesn't want Rozier and his 74m on the books moving forward. I need to find a second team and player that might be amenable to the Suns but would be fine taking on Paul to save long term salary. Lonzo Ball and the Bulls but he is so injury prone - pass.

I just have a feeling that Payne, Paul, Shamet and Ayton - if this thing finishes against the Nuggets like its looking in five games - none of those four will be back this fall. Or I have a hard time seeing all four back next fall.

Ishbia will pay the money it seems

[Ghost of Kleine]

Ghost, easy rule of thumb for these. You can't use an option/non-guarantee in a trade to shed money for the team acquiring the guy. They closed that loophole a few years back.

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Thanks for the info man! And if so, then that really sucks. What's the wording on that in the CBA specifically? So the premise would then be that in a Paul trade, the receiving team couldn't buy him out for his 15 million partial guarantee? I understand that acquiring any player with a player option couldn't happen until after free agency AND IF only if they agreed to a sign n trade.

[BobbieL]

Ghost, easy rule of thumb for these. You can't use an option/non-guarantee in a trade to shed money for the team acquiring the guy. They closed that loophole a few years back.

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Thats why I bring up a deal with the Hornets - but thats if they want to cut salary. Who knows, if Jordan sells the team - maybe the new owner doesn't want Rozier and his 74m on the books moving forward. I need to find a second team and player that might be amenable to the Suns but would be fine taking on Paul to save long term salary. Lonzo Ball and the Bulls but he is so injury prone - pass.

I just have a feeling that Payne, Paul, Shamet and Ayton - if this thing finishes against the Nuggets like its looking in five games - none of those four will be back this fall. Or I have a hard time seeing all four back next fall.

Ishbia will pay the money it seems

The Wizards with Bradley Beal - but the option would probably need to be picked up to get close to his $46m - but not sure about Booker, Beal, Durant and Irving would not be a fit. and Beals contract is crazy - Suns would be stupid to bail out the Wiz

Bulls - Ball - too injured


The Nets - Ben Simmons -- that would be a flyer. He Durant and Kyrie - that would not be the best


So I have four teams possibly for Paul: Hornets, Bulls, Wiz and Nets and think the best option is Scary Terry. My final answer

[BobbieL]

Ghost, easy rule of thumb for these. You can't use an option/non-guarantee in a trade to shed money for the team acquiring the guy. They closed that loophole a few years back.

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Thanks for the info man! And if so, then that really sucks. What's the wording on that in the CBA specifically? So the premise would then be that in a Paul trade, the receiving team couldn't buy him out for his 15 million partial guarantee? I understand that acquiring any player with a player option couldn't happen until after free agency AND IF only if they agreed to a sign n trade.

The way I understand the rule -- in laymans terms - is the guaranteed part of the contract is the part allowed in the trade

So Paul at this point would be 15.8m and Payne would be 2m - so thats basically 18m going out....

In the old days - you are right GoK - the Suns would have 37.8 going out - the team would than waive them and only cost 15.8 + 2

Suns could get back the 35-40m in trade value. Not anymore

[WeekapaugGroove]

Ghost, easy rule of thumb for these. You can't use an option/non-guarantee in a trade to shed money for the team acquiring the guy. They closed that loophole a few years back.

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Thanks for the info man! And if so, then that really sucks. What's the wording on that in the CBA specifically? So the premise would then be that in a Paul trade, the receiving team couldn't buy him out for his 15 million partial guarantee? I understand that acquiring any player with a player option couldn't happen until after free agency AND IF only if they agreed to a sign n trade.

The way I understand the rule -- in laymans terms - is the guaranteed part of the contract is the part allowed in the trade

So Paul at this point would be 15.8m and Payne would be 2m - so thats basically 18m going out....

In the old days - you are right GoK - the Suns would have 37.8 going out - the team would than waive them and only cost 15.8 + 2

Suns could get back the 35-40m in trade value. Not anymore

It's a little tricky.

If it was a straight 'team option' then the whole thing would need to be picked up before Paul could be traded. But with Paul 'partial guarantee' I'm not sure how it works. You might be right that the 15 mil counts against the trade matching but I'm not sure because if that team decided to keep him then they would raise their cap number by an extra $15 mil and I'm not sure if they can do that.

In general the NBA closed the ability for teams to use trades to manipulate the cap.

Before they closed the loophole teams were giving guys fake years at the end of their deals then trying to flip them to over the tax teams who would then decline the options to get under the tax. Can't do that anymore
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[BobbieL]

Thanks for the info man! And if so, then that really sucks. What's the wording on that in the CBA specifically? So the premise would then be that in a Paul trade, the receiving team couldn't buy him out for his 15 million partial guarantee? I understand that acquiring any player with a player option couldn't happen until after free agency AND IF only if they agreed to a sign n trade.

The way I understand the rule -- in laymans terms - is the guaranteed part of the contract is the part allowed in the trade

So Paul at this point would be 15.8m and Payne would be 2m - so thats basically 18m going out....

In the old days - you are right GoK - the Suns would have 37.8 going out - the team would than waive them and only cost 15.8 + 2

Suns could get back the 35-40m in trade value. Not anymore

It's a little tricky.

If it was a straight 'team option' then the whole thing would need to be picked up before Paul could be traded. But with Paul 'partial guarantee' I'm not sure how it works. You might be right that the 15 mil counts against the trade matching but I'm not sure because if that team decided to keep him then they would raise their cap number by an extra $15 mil and I'm not sure if they can do that.

In general the NBA closed the ability for teams to use trades to manipulate the cap.

Before they closed the loophole teams were giving guys fake years at the end of their deals then trying to flip them to over the tax teams who would then decline the options to get under the tax. Can't do that anymore
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Good points. I do wonder how that would work if the team were to pick up the option. Granted, the Suns are in a tough spot. If nothing can be done, and Ishbia can afford him - he might be a good third guard off the bench.

[spanishninja]

If a potential coaching change becomes a factor of discussion this summer:

https://franchisesports.co.uk/best-available-nba-coaches2022-23/

10- James Borrego.
9- Sam Cassell.
8- Terry Stotts.
7- Dave Joerger.
6- Frank Vogel.
5- Becky Hammon.
4- Mark Jackson.
3- Kenny Atkinson.
2- Mike D'Antoni.
1- Quin Snyder........ Nick Nurse.

** Nate McMillan, Mike Budenholzer, Charles Lee, Nate Vanterpool, Chris Quinn, Mitch Johnson, scott Brooks, Dwayne Casey, Jerry Stackhouse, Adrian Griffin, Darko Rajakovic, Jay Wright, Sergio Scariolo ( Virtus Bologna).

Any of these potential names sound intriguing to you guys?? Any key names I might be missing?

I am intrigued about Hammon. She is one of the few on this list who hasn't been on the coaching carousel, was an assistant under Pop, has coached a championship team. And you cannot ignore the heaps of positive PR that would come from the hiring.

[BobbieL]

If a potential coaching change becomes a factor of discussion this summer:

https://franchisesports.co.uk/best-available-nba-coaches2022-23/

10- James Borrego.
9- Sam Cassell.
8- Terry Stotts.
7- Dave Joerger.
6- Frank Vogel.
5- Becky Hammon.
4- Mark Jackson.
3- Kenny Atkinson.
2- Mike D'Antoni.
1- Quin Snyder........ Nick Nurse.

** Nate McMillan, Mike Budenholzer, Charles Lee, Nate Vanterpool, Chris Quinn, Mitch Johnson, scott Brooks, Dwayne Casey, Jerry Stackhouse, Adrian Griffin, Darko Rajakovic, Jay Wright, Sergio Scariolo ( Virtus Bologna).

Any of these potential names sound intriguing to you guys?? Any key names I might be missing?

I am intrigued about Hammon. She is one of the few on this list who hasn't been on the coaching carousel, was an assistant under Pop, has coached a championship team. And you cannot ignore the heaps of positive PR that would come from the hiring.

Of that list would probably put her neck and neck with Atkinson
done with D'Antoni
Stotts is intriguing

Edit: I forgot about Nick Nurse but I can see him in Milwaukee if they fired Bud - granted that is touchy since his brother died during the playoffs.

[WeekapaugGroove]

The way I understand the rule -- in laymans terms - is the guaranteed part of the contract is the part allowed in the trade

So Paul at this point would be 15.8m and Payne would be 2m - so thats basically 18m going out....

In the old days - you are right GoK - the Suns would have 37.8 going out - the team would than waive them and only cost 15.8 + 2

Suns could get back the 35-40m in trade value. Not anymore

It's a little tricky.

If it was a straight 'team option' then the whole thing would need to be picked up before Paul could be traded. But with Paul 'partial guarantee' I'm not sure how it works. You might be right that the 15 mil counts against the trade matching but I'm not sure because if that team decided to keep him then they would raise their cap number by an extra $15 mil and I'm not sure if they can do that.

In general the NBA closed the ability for teams to use trades to manipulate the cap.

Before they closed the loophole teams were giving guys fake years at the end of their deals then trying to flip them to over the tax teams who would then decline the options to get under the tax. Can't do that anymore
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Good points. I do wonder how that would work if the team were to pick up the option. Granted, the Suns are in a tough spot. If nothing can be done, and Ishbia can afford him - he might be a good third guard off the bench.

I think there's actually a chance CP just straight up retires after the season. He's turning 38 in May, his body is obviously failing him and dudes got kids at home and I'm sure he would have plenty of assistant coach or media jobs if he wants to stay around the game.

I'm not saying it's over 50% chance he retires but I don't think it's 0% either.

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