Game 32: Suns (10-21) at Mavs (8-22), Monday, December 18th, 6:30PM, MST

[AtheJ415]

Winning breeds winning. Doesn't matter how we win. The guys feed off of that, which is my biggest problem with the "let's lose every game we can in hopes of drafting the best prospect six months from now" thinking.

Generally yes, but let's be realistic here. This team isn't going to be winning a lot this year, and it's not as if we are really going to be better in the next 3-4 years just because we finished 8th worst instead of 2nd or 3rd this season.

It's fine to want to win, but don't come back on here in over the years like certain people spouting nonsensical drivel about how all of the young guys we had to take in the middle of the lottery aren't performing like All-Stars 2 years in. There's a reason guys like Ben Simmons hit the ground running. Tanking works, but you have to do it well enough. What certain fans on here complain about is a team that is pretty bad but not quite bad enough, that played vets to win a few more games (hello PJ Tucker) and that ended up with middling picks in deep drafts or somewhat early picks in top heavy drafts. They then lose patience even though the selected player was always a project (because they didn't lose enough to get the sure thing), and follow it up with an unheralded and nonsensical outlook of a player's future that ignores the entire history of basketball.

[AtheJ415]

It's amazing to me that we have a fan on this board who spends his time complaining about every young player on the team, but loves Isaiah Canaan so much he mess up searches in a misleading way to make him seem like a future NBA star.

[lilfishi22]

It's amazing to me that we have a fan on this board who spends his time complaining about every young player on the team, but loves Isaiah Canaan so much he mess up searches in a misleading way to make him seem like a future NBA star.

That's just not true. The stats just show that even some all-stars don't come up favorably when looking at their efg%. No one looking at those stats would make that connection if you believe that there are posters on this board or any board that thinks he's a future all-star then you're clearly flying solo with that belief.

[bigfoot]

Canaan can only be on the roster for about 14 more days. He won't be on here after that, and while he's been a passable 3 point shooter, he has been SO atrocious from 2 that his eFG% is among the worst in history for the amount of shots he has taken. Len and Bender are the only true positives about these 2 wins. And they would be every bit as positive if their performances were in losses.

Here are some players whose career eFG% are worse than Canaan. They all happen to be all-stars and some very, very surprising names make this very, very long list (209). Again you spew nonsensical crap based on your opinion and can almost always be slapped down by real world examples.

http://bkref.com/tiny/VtNx1

Just to make it even a little easier for you I pared down this list which includes only two time all-stars (80)

http://bkref.com/tiny/Jhzbl

And just one more so it is even simpler for you ... this active all-stars with eFG% worse than Canaan.

http://bkref.com/tiny/IZS62

Personal attacks are bad... mm'kay. -bat

Weak ... weak ... weak. Still refuse to look at reality. Maybe those three lists were just too, too big for your tiny, weeny mind to get around. Here it is made even simpler for you. Three players with similar eFG% and lots of FG attempts. They all must be the worst ever players according to you.

http://bkref.com/tiny/N9J4f

[AtheJ415]

Here are some players whose career eFG% are worse than Canaan. They all happen to be all-stars and some very, very surprising names make this very, very long list (209). Again you spew nonsensical crap based on your opinion and can almost always be slapped down by real world examples.

http://bkref.com/tiny/VtNx1

Just to make it even a little easier for you I pared down this list which includes only two time all-stars (80)

http://bkref.com/tiny/Jhzbl

And just one more so it is even simpler for you ... this active all-stars with eFG% worse than Canaan.

http://bkref.com/tiny/IZS62

Personal attacks are bad... mm'kay. -bat

Weak ... weak ... weak. Still refuse to look at reality. Maybe those three lists were just too, too big for your tiny, weeny mind to get around. Here it is made even simpler for you. Three players with similar eFG% and lots of FG attempts. They all must be the worst ever players according to you.

http://bkref.com/tiny/N9J4f

I guess launching rocket ships is easier than using basketball ref. It's like excel. You have to use it routinely. If you can't even find the rather obvious mistake you made?...

Anyways, good luck with your crusade to proclaim all of our young players as busts. It's working out real well with Len, just like it did Jimmy Butler, Tobias Harris, Kobe, and reallydamn near ever 20 year old in the league's history. If only we could go back in time and trade all of the 20 year olds for the middling vets you covet, maybe we could one day get that almighty 9th seed.

[lilfishi22]

Here are some players whose career eFG% are worse than Canaan. They all happen to be all-stars and some very, very surprising names make this very, very long list (209). Again you spew nonsensical crap based on your opinion and can almost always be slapped down by real world examples.

http://bkref.com/tiny/VtNx1

Just to make it even a little easier for you I pared down this list which includes only two time all-stars (80)

http://bkref.com/tiny/Jhzbl

And just one more so it is even simpler for you ... this active all-stars with eFG% worse than Canaan.

http://bkref.com/tiny/IZS62

Personal attacks are bad... mm'kay. -bat

Weak ... weak ... weak. Still refuse to look at reality. Maybe those three lists were just too, too big for your tiny, weeny mind to get around. Here it is made even simpler for you. Three players with similar eFG% and lots of FG attempts. They all must be the worst ever players according to you.

http://bkref.com/tiny/N9J4f

You're not saying Canaan is on the same tier of player as Booker or Kobe or any allstar are you?

[bigfoot]

Personal attacks are bad... mm'kay. -bat

Weak ... weak ... weak. Still refuse to look at reality. Maybe those three lists were just too, too big for your tiny, weeny mind to get around. Here it is made even simpler for you. Three players with similar eFG% and lots of FG attempts. They all must be the worst ever players according to you.

http://bkref.com/tiny/N9J4f

You're not saying Canaan is on the same tier of player as Booker or Kobe or any allstar are you?

No I am not ... never said that. I was simpley refuting your statement that Canaan has the worst ever eFG% for the volume of shots taken. He's taken roughly 1300 shots with an eFG% of .484. Searched for all-star players with eFG <= .484 and > 1300 shots. The point was to show that there are plenty of very good players that have worse numbers than Canaan. Your statement about Canaan having worst eFG% in the history of the NBA on his volume of shots is incorrect and proven by my posts. That is all I am saying.

[MathiasPW]

Personal attacks are bad... mm'kay. -bat

Weak ... weak ... weak. Still refuse to look at reality. Maybe those three lists were just too, too big for your tiny, weeny mind to get around. Here it is made even simpler for you. Three players with similar eFG% and lots of FG attempts. They all must be the worst ever players according to you.

http://bkref.com/tiny/N9J4f

I guess launching rocket ships is easier than using basketball ref. It's like excel. You have to use it routinely. If you can't even find the rather obvious mistake you made?...

Anyways, good luck with your crusade to proclaim all of our young players as busts. It's working out real well with Len, just like it did Jimmy Butler, Tobias Harris, Kobe, and reallydamn near ever 20 year old in the league's history. If only we could go back in time and trade all of the 20 year olds for the middling vets you covet, maybe we could one day get that almighty 9th seed.

Well, I personally rather trust some data, even when partially misleading, than no data at all.

[bigfoot]

Weak ... weak ... weak. Still refuse to look at reality. Maybe those three lists were just too, too big for your tiny, weeny mind to get around. Here it is made even simpler for you. Three players with similar eFG% and lots of FG attempts. They all must be the worst ever players according to you.

http://bkref.com/tiny/N9J4f

I guess launching rocket ships is easier than using basketball ref. It's like excel. You have to use it routinely. If you can't even find the rather obvious mistake you made?...

Anyways, good luck with your crusade to proclaim all of our young players as busts. It's working out real well with Len, just like it did Jimmy Butler, Tobias Harris, Kobe, and reallydamn near ever 20 year old in the league's history. If only we could go back in time and trade all of the 20 year olds for the middling vets you covet, maybe we could one day get that almighty 9th seed.

Well, I personally rather trust some data, even when partially misleading, than no data at all.

I will admit I did make a mistake with the search.

The first search is correct and was:
For combined seasons; played in the NBA/BAA; in the regular season; from 1946-47 to 2017-18; at least 1 All-Star selection; requiring Effective Field Goal Pct <= .484 and Field Goal Attempts >= 1376; sorted by descending Effective Field Goal Pct


The second search is incorrect and was:
For combined seasons; played in the NBA/BAA; in the regular season; from 1946-47 to 2017-18; not a member of the Hall of Fame; at least 2 All-Star selections; requiring Effective Field Goal Pct <= .484 and Field Goal Attempts >= 1376; sorted by descending Effective Field Goal Pct
The part that was wrong was I was playing around to see how many Hall-of-Fame players actually shot less than .484 eFG%. I mis-checked that box and excluded all Hall-of-Famers. Technically there are another 61 HOF players that should be in the second list which proves the point even further that there are plenty of quality players with eFG% worse than Canaan's.

The third search is correct but also excludes Hall-of-Fame players. Fortunately it is also includes only active players and those two conditions are mutually exclusive ... have to be out of the league five years before HOF eligible.
For combined seasons; played in the NBA/BAA; in the regular season; from 1946-47 to 2017-18; is active; not a member of the Hall of Fame; at least 1 All-Star selection; requiring Effective Field Goal Pct <= .484 and Field Goal Attempts >= 1376; sorted by descending Effective Field Goal Pct

I am certainly not perfect and can absolutely make mistakes. If somebody really wants to point out what I missed then please do so. Otherwise the search stands and still shows many good players have eFG% worse than Canaan including Hall-of-Famers, League MVPS, and multi-year all-stars.

[RaisingArizona]

[bwgood77]

Regardless of any errors in the searches, they clearly demonstrated that statement was WAY off. So much so that the only response available was misdirection and personal insults which resulted in them going both ways.

But there isn't any need for personal insults either way or posting ridiculous numbers of emoticons. If you can't engage in arguments without refraining from personal attacks, just put each other on ignore (Add foe).

[MathiasPW]

Regardless of any errors in the searches, they clearly demonstrated that statement was WAY off. So much so that the only response available was misdirection and personal insults which resulted in them going both ways.

But there isn't any need for personal insults either way or posting ridiculous numbers of emoticons. If you can't engage in arguments without refraining from personal attacks, just put each other on ignore (Add foe).

Now, where is the fun in that?

Jokes aside, while the arguments have been intense, I dont think they have crossed any barriers in terms of personal attacks yet.

On the other hand, that is probably why I could never be a mod. I like the circus on fire too much

[bwgood77]

Regardless of any errors in the searches, they clearly demonstrated that statement was WAY off. So much so that the only response available was misdirection and personal insults which resulted in them going both ways.

But there isn't any need for personal insults either way or posting ridiculous numbers of emoticons. If you can't engage in arguments without refraining from personal attacks, just put each other on ignore (Add foe).

Now, where is the fun in that?

Jokes aside, while the arguments have been intense, I dont think they have crossed any barriers in terms of personal attacks yet.

On the other hand, that is probably why I could never be a mod. I like the circus on fire too much

Just for future reference calling someone the stupidest person on the internet or saying someone has a tiny weeny mind qualify as personal attacks. Some of these may have been edited out of posts by other mods though so you may not have seen them.

[MathiasPW]

Regardless of any errors in the searches, they clearly demonstrated that statement was WAY off. So much so that the only response available was misdirection and personal insults which resulted in them going both ways.

But there isn't any need for personal insults either way or posting ridiculous numbers of emoticons. If you can't engage in arguments without refraining from personal attacks, just put each other on ignore (Add foe).

Now, where is the fun in that?

Jokes aside, while the arguments have been intense, I dont think they have crossed any barriers in terms of personal attacks yet.

On the other hand, that is probably why I could never be a mod. I like the circus on fire too much

Just for future reference calling someone the stupidest person on the internet or saying someone has a tiny weeny mind qualify as personal attacks. Some of these may have been edited out of posts by other mods though so you may not have seen them.

Thanks for the clarification. Now I'll know my 4 year old daughter is attacking me when she calls me the stupidest dad or when my wife says I have a tiny weeny....oh...nevermind...

[sunsbum]

Regardless of any errors in the searches, they clearly demonstrated that statement was WAY off. So much so that the only response available was misdirection and personal insults which resulted in them going both ways.

But there isn't any need for personal insults either way or posting ridiculous numbers of emoticons. If you can't engage in arguments without refraining from personal attacks, just put each other on ignore (Add foe).

Now, where is the fun in that?

Jokes aside, while the arguments have been intense, I dont think they have crossed any barriers in terms of personal attacks yet.

On the other hand, that is probably why I could never be a mod. I like the circus on fire too much

Just for future reference calling someone the stupidest person on the internet or saying someone has a tiny weeny mind qualify as personal attacks. Some of these may have been edited out of posts by other mods though so you may not have seen them.

Micro penis. It's a real thing mannnn

[bigfoot]

Regardless of any errors in the searches, they clearly demonstrated that statement was WAY off. So much so that the only response available was misdirection and personal insults which resulted in them going both ways.

But there isn't any need for personal insults either way or posting ridiculous numbers of emoticons. If you can't engage in arguments without refraining from personal attacks, just put each other on ignore (Add foe).

Now, where is the fun in that?

Jokes aside, while the arguments have been intense, I dont think they have crossed any barriers in terms of personal attacks yet.

On the other hand, that is probably why I could never be a mod. I like the circus on fire too much

Just for future reference calling someone the stupidest person on the internet or saying someone has a tiny weeny mind qualify as personal attacks. Some of these may have been edited out of posts by other mods though so you may not have seen them.

Got it boss! Still hoping we can get more response to the poll though ... https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=1649933

Keeping the entertainment level high is always a good thing.

[garrick]

It's amazing to me that we have a fan on this board who spends his time complaining about every young player on the team, but loves Isaiah Canaan so much he mess up searches in a misleading way to make him seem like a future NBA star.

I'd be interested in how you know so much about a bit player like Cannan? Not trying to troll just genuinely interested.

[LukasBMW]

My problem with Mike James an Cannan is that:

-At 26 and 27, neither fit the timeline.
-They are monthly or yearly rentals. Anything they do for us goes away at the end of the year.
-They are taking time and opportunities away from the other guys. (both playing minutes and time handling the ball).

If we had traded for a project like Mudiay or French Frank and THEY were putting up the numbers, I'd be ecstatic since we'd be in control and likley able to keep them.

[bigfoot]

My problem with Mike James an Cannan is that:

-At 26 and 27, neither fit the timeline.
-They are monthly or yearly rentals. Anything they do for us goes away at the end of the year.
-They are taking time and opportunities away from the other guys. (both playing minutes and time handling the ball).

If we had traded for a project like Mudiay or French Frank and THEY were putting up the numbers, I'd be ecstatic since we'd be in control and likley able to keep them.

-- I'm not sure I buy into the age thing for the timeline. For example, Marion at 26, Johnson 23, Amare 22 ... we go get a 30 year old injured point guard to put next to them. To me the timeline needs to be about if our young players are ready and need that extra push by a seasoned vet. Booker (21) is definitely ready. Warren (24) is definitely ready. Len (24) may be ready ... we will see if he can sustain and if we can retain him (trademarking - Sustain&Retain). Or we need someone else to step up out of Bender, Jackson, and Chriss.

-- I'm not sure we even know what type of contract James or Canaan are signed too. My guess is the Suns have options on them for the next two years and salary is not guaranteed. Smart GMs would do that incase they bust out. Also, we do need a solid bench once we find our true starting PG. I will say that its really discouraging to see fans down on players who work hard to get back into the NBA. If players like Whiteside, PJ Tucker and Canaan or James can elevate their game to be solid players they should get that opportunity. Especially over a defensive liability like Ulis. P.S. Tucker getting solid minutes (27m/g) on the best team in the NBA.

-- James and Cannan are both primary offensive options off the bench. Bender, Len, House, Daniels are not shot creators nor should we expect them to run the offense for the bench unit. Coach T is keeping it simple until those young players show they can handle more responsibilities. I favor this because success breeds confidence. In terms of your third concern, they only time they take away from Ulis but he is starting and can't play the whole game.

[lilfishi22]

My problem with Mike James an Cannan is that:

-At 26 and 27, neither fit the timeline.
-They are monthly or yearly rentals. Anything they do for us goes away at the end of the year.
-They are taking time and opportunities away from the other guys. (both playing minutes and time handling the ball).

If we had traded for a project like Mudiay or French Frank and THEY were putting up the numbers, I'd be ecstatic since we'd be in control and likley able to keep them.

I disagree

At 26-27, they are perfect for the timeline. You can't have a team of 21-22 year olds play good basketball and expect to get good development out of a team without any experience. At 26-27, they largely know how to play the game, they have good experience, they mostly know what their strengths and weaknesses are and they know what they need to do to be productive. Even a young team like Sixers have TJ, Bayless, Reddick playing significant minutes.

As for being rentals, just because they go doesn't mean they take everything with them. If they play well, it gives us a better look at the type of players we should be pursuing. Maybe Booker plays his best ball next to a Marcus Smart type bruiser or maybe he plays his best next to a McConnell type passer or perhaps he's better with a scorer like Harris.

They aren't taking minutes or roles from anyone worth playing anyway. Ulis has regressed and it's not trending upwards at this point. It's entirely debatable whether he's even a 2nd stringer.