Deandre Ayton news and discussion

[bwgood77]

Right now their offense isn't set up to utilize Ayton well. If we were the SSOL Suns with Nash, Ayton would be averaging over 20. We would be running, which is what he is good at, and finishing before defenses could get set.

Currently our guards dribble forever and teams double Ayton and by the time he gets the ball he is double teamed and trying to score in the low post against a double team is worse than passing it out to an open 3 pt shooter.

Too bad Booker and Paul don't like to run and Booker tries to play iso and then throw it to Ayton when he's well covered.

[handsome salary]

Right now their offense isn't set up to utilize Ayton well. If we were the SSOL Suns with Nash, Ayton would be averaging over 20. We would be running, which is what he is good at, and finishing before defenses could get set.

Currently our guards dribble forever and teams double Ayton and by the time he gets the ball he is double teamed and trying to score in the low post against a double team is worse than passing it out to an open 3 pt shooter.

Too bad Booker and Paul don't like to run and Booker tries to play iso and then throw it to Ayton when he's well covered.

Sure. its this current team that makes him so passive, clueless and inept. Any other Suns team in history would have a MVP in their hands.

[sunskerr]

I talked about this in my previous post in here. This is why I believe it looks like we aren't "looking for Ayton". We want to win games and we shouldn't be going out of our way to give touches to someone who should probably just be scoring off assists, cuts, rolls, and 2nd chance points.

This means stop force feeding Ayton his post ups, especially if we want to win. I think at some level we are already doing this now, and even going back to the bubble (look at Ayton's bubble performance on offense). The games mattered in the bubble and we played the best offense we could, which meant not going out of our way to get Ayton post looks and mid rangers. I think there is a possibility you will see this continue this season because we want to win games and make the playoffs.

More I think about it, I would probably just straight up trade him for John Collins right now. We really do need the extra scoring, and Revived went more in depth about how John Collin's defense improved last season.

[bwgood77]

I talked about this in my previous post in here. This is why I believe it looks like we aren't "looking for Ayton". We want to win games and we shouldn't be going out of our way to give touches to someone who should probably just be scoring off assists, cuts, rolls, and 2nd chance points.

This means stop force feeding Ayton his post ups, especially if we want to win. I think at some level we are already doing this now, and even going back to the bubble (look at Ayton's bubble performance on offense). The games mattered in the bubble and we played the best offense we could, which meant not going out of our way to get Ayton post looks and mid rangers. I think there is a possibility you will see this continue this season because we want to win games and make the playoffs.

More I think about it, I would probably just straight up trade him for John Collins right now. We really do need the extra scoring, and Revived went more in depth about how John Collin's defense improved last season.

No, the most important thing for a center is defense. And very surprisingly, his defense looks to be making enormous strides. It's befuddling that so many care THAT much about his offense. I know many judge players strictly on PPG, but Ayton is a strong rebounder, becoming a great defender, really good passser and his offense has been fine.

As a rookie he scored 16 a game on a 61% TS%. His TS% dropped last season to 57% when he increased to 18+ pts, and he may not be scoring as much this season through 3 games, but his TS% is at 58.4% through 2 games (don't have 3rd yet) which is fine, better than Cam Johnson, Chris Paul or Crowder....and he's still getting used to a brand new PG...the 3rd in 3 seasons.

He is also developing a 3. Who really cares how hard he dunks or how much he dribbles if he is scoring efficiently and drawing double teams and finding the open guy? Well, I know a lot do.

Collins is good, but I wouldn't make the trade just yet.

[sunskerr]

Dude any center can produce those ts numbers. The reason we are concerned about his offense is because he is the #1 pick. That is the standard he is expected to meet. And no just because a center has high ts doesn’t mean they are impacting the game significantly on offense. Being able to create your shot and/or shoot 3s impact the game more than finishing lobs and other gimmes because it means the defense has to pay attention and extra effort to you.

My post last page is a explanation of what probably should happen given Aytons apparent lack of creative and impactful offensive ability. In essence we should accept him for who he is (limited offensive player) play our game and build our team with that in mind.

EDIT: I'll say that going forward, Ayton's statline is almost EXACTLY what I want to see from him and is basically how I was envisioning him in my long post on the previous page. An efficient 11 points and FIFTEEN REBOUNDS. He also hit a three! That's really good.

And it feels right too. All of a sudden when you move on from the fact that Ayton was the #1 pick, and just accept a different development path, that defense and the other strengths that he has starts to stand out more.

[pj0tr]

I just would like to see Ayton not try to take at least one dribble deep in the paint when he catches it before he goes up for a dunk or layup.

That was infuriating, especially in the game on Saturday. Hopefully CP3 has some influence on him about this.

[Revived]

Dude any center can produce those ts numbers. The reason we are concerned about his offense is because he is the #1 pick. That is the standard he is expected to meet. And no just because a center has high ts doesn’t mean they are impacting the game significantly on offense. Being able to create your shot and/or shoot 3s impact the game more than finishing lobs and other gimmes because it means the defense has to pay attention and extra effort to you.

My post last page is a explanation of what probably should happen given Aytons apparent lack of creative and impactful offensive ability. In essence we should accept him for who he is (limited offensive player) play our game and build our team with that in mind.

EDIT: I'll say that going forward, Ayton's statline is almost EXACTLY what I want to see from him and is basically how I was envisioning him in my long post on the previous page. An efficient 11 points and FIFTEEN REBOUNDS. He also hit a three! That's really good.

And it feels right too. All of a sudden when you move on from the fact that Ayton was the #1 pick, and just accept a different development path, that defense and the other strengths that he has starts to stand out more.

Yeah I’ve said it before but Ayton basically plays DeAndre Jordan/Clint Capela minus the elite rim protection and athleticism both those guys had.

Capela for example averaged 17 pts and 13 rebounds just from playing with CP3 and Harden where they spoon fed him open dunk and layup attempts. He scored a bunch but it was almost entirely on assisted baskets. Basically how Ayton’s offense is now. I think the expectation was for him to have that Embiid type game where can create his offense versus being spoon fed for layups. Don’t get me wrong, it’s great to have a C that can finish layups and dunks because our other Cs like Len couldn’t even do that much. But again because he’s a top overall pick, the expectation is for him to have a better offensive game than the likes of Capela and Jordan.

[ImNotMcDiSwear]

I talked about this in my previous post in here. This is why I believe it looks like we aren't "looking for Ayton". We want to win games and we shouldn't be going out of our way to give touches to someone who should probably just be scoring off assists, cuts, rolls, and 2nd chance points.

This means stop force feeding Ayton his post ups, especially if we want to win. I think at some level we are already doing this now, and even going back to the bubble (look at Ayton's bubble performance on offense). The games mattered in the bubble and we played the best offense we could, which meant not going out of our way to get Ayton post looks and mid rangers. I think there is a possibility you will see this continue this season because we want to win games and make the playoffs.

More I think about it, I would probably just straight up trade him for John Collins right now. We really do need the extra scoring, and Revived went more in depth about how John Collin's defense improved last season.

No, the most important thing for a center is defense. And very surprisingly, his defense looks to be making enormous strides. It's befuddling that so many care THAT much about his offense. I know many judge players strictly on PPG, but Ayton is a strong rebounder, becoming a great defender, really good passser and his offense has been fine.

As a rookie he scored 16 a game on a 61% TS%. His TS% dropped last season to 57% when he increased to 18+ pts, and he may not be scoring as much this season through 3 games, but his TS% is at 58.4% through 2 games (don't have 3rd yet) which is fine, better than Cam Johnson, Chris Paul or Crowder....and he's still getting used to a brand new PG...the 3rd in 3 seasons.

He is also developing a 3. Who really cares how hard he dunks or how much he dribbles if he is scoring efficiently and drawing double teams and finding the open guy? Well, I know a lot do.

Collins is good, but I wouldn't make the trade just yet.

Completely agree. TBH I've been pretty shocked at everyone rushing to criticize Deandre. He's look pretty good to me. I too have been really encourage by his defense. His passing has been phenomenal. His work off-ball has been really good, helping others get open looks. It's up to Paul, Booker and Mikal to take advantage.

The guy who's been subpar so far, obviously, has been Booker. Paul's not played amazing, but at least he hasn't been turning it over and passing up so many open shots. We've seen this agonizing playstyle from Booker before in the past - a lot, actually.

Honestly, I think I would be willing to give Deandre the max at this point, though I would make him wait one more summer for it. He hasn't played up to his top billing, but he's still developing, and he's easily a top 10 center. He may not be quite worth the max, but he's not that far off and I would hope our continuing to commit to him would pay dividends.

Right now their offense isn't set up to utilize Ayton well. If we were the SSOL Suns with Nash, Ayton would be averaging over 20. We would be running, which is what he is good at, and finishing before defenses could get set.

Currently our guards dribble forever and teams double Ayton and by the time he gets the ball he is double teamed and trying to score in the low post against a double team is worse than passing it out to an open 3 pt shooter.

Too bad Booker and Paul don't like to run and Booker tries to play iso and then throw it to Ayton when he's well covered.

Bingo. Ayton wouldn't dunk like Amare would, but he's got great touch. Replacing Amare with Deandre might have put those SSOL squads over the top. With he and Mikal, we have the makings of a great defensive team. Just need to get everyone on the same page. Not sure if that's politically feasible.

[Frank Lee]

Ayton is a knucklehead. That alone will prevent him from reaching the level many anticipated/plead for. He has to think about everything he does on the court. Best thing is for him to find and accept his role ... D and RBs with clean up points.

[cberry78]

Ayton is a knucklehead. That alone will prevent him from reaching the level many anticipated/plead for. He has to think about everything he does on the court. Best thing is for him to find and accept his role ... D and RBs with clean up points.

I agree that this is going to be his best role for now, but I don't think it's going to be anywhere near his peak - he has all the tools, athleticism and ability, he just needs to put it all together. And calling him a knucklehead might be a bit much, I don't think he'll ever get to the level of a CP3/Nash/G.Hill type of player at understanding the ins and outs of the game, but by his (and Monty's) admission DA's never had anyone sit down and watch film with him like CP3 has started doing this year. Hopefully, some of that understanding will rub off on him.

[bwgood77]

I talked about this in my previous post in here. This is why I believe it looks like we aren't "looking for Ayton". We want to win games and we shouldn't be going out of our way to give touches to someone who should probably just be scoring off assists, cuts, rolls, and 2nd chance points.



More I think about it, I would probably just straight up trade him for John Collins right now. We really do need the extra scoring, and Revived went more in depth about how John Collin's defense improved last season.

No, the most important thing for a center is defense. And very surprisingly, his defense looks to be making enormous strides. It's befuddling that so many care THAT much about his offense. I know many judge players strictly on PPG, but Ayton is a strong rebounder, becoming a great defender, really good passser and his offense has been fine.

As a rookie he scored 16 a game on a 61% TS%. His TS% dropped last season to 57% when he increased to 18+ pts, and he may not be scoring as much this season through 3 games, but his TS% is at 58.4% through 2 games (don't have 3rd yet) which is fine, better than Cam Johnson, Chris Paul or Crowder....and he's still getting used to a brand new PG...the 3rd in 3 seasons.

He is also developing a 3. Who really cares how hard he dunks or how much he dribbles if he is scoring efficiently and drawing double teams and finding the open guy? Well, I know a lot do.

Collins is good, but I wouldn't make the trade just yet.

Completely agree. TBH I've been pretty shocked at everyone rushing to criticize Deandre. He's look pretty good to me. I too have been really encourage by his defense. His passing has been phenomenal. His work off-ball has been really good, helping others get open looks. It's up to Paul, Booker and Mikal to take advantage.

The guy who's been subpar so far, obviously, has been Booker. Paul's not played amazing, but at least he hasn't been turning it over and passing up so many open shots. We've seen this agonizing playstyle from Booker before in the past - a lot, actually.

Honestly, I think I would be willing to give Deandre the max at this point, though I would make him wait one more summer for it. He hasn't played up to his top billing, but he's still developing, and he's easily a top 10 center. He may not be quite worth the max, but he's not that far off and I would hope our continuing to commit to him would pay dividends.

Right now their offense isn't set up to utilize Ayton well. If we were the SSOL Suns with Nash, Ayton would be averaging over 20. We would be running, which is what he is good at, and finishing before defenses could get set.

Currently our guards dribble forever and teams double Ayton and by the time he gets the ball he is double teamed and trying to score in the low post against a double team is worse than passing it out to an open 3 pt shooter.

Too bad Booker and Paul don't like to run and Booker tries to play iso and then throw it to Ayton when he's well covered.

Bingo. Ayton wouldn't dunk like Amare would, but he's got great touch. Replacing Amare with Deandre might have put those SSOL squads over the top. With he and Mikal, we have the makings of a great defensive team. Just need to get everyone on the same page. Not sure if that's politically feasible.

I wouldn't give him the max at this point, but at the same time we have two years to decide that stuff. Right now I'd let him hit FA and see what kind of offer he can get and match it. People talk about trading him...I wouldn't actively seek one but I'd listen if someone called.

Anyway, it's not that often a C comes into the league as horrendous of a defender as he is and improve this much through under 110 games. That's essentially less than a season in a half. Bam in his second season was averaging like 9, 7 and 2. I talk about his second season because he played 150 games through 2 seasons, so Ayton's played about as many as he did through 1 1/2 seasons...with his 3rd PG.

Bam last year (3rd) was 16/10/5. Now I mention Bam because Amare reminds me of him...he may not score a ton, but he will get double digit rebounds and probably more assists than an avg C.

However, Ayton will probably end up averaging slightly more points in his 3rd year, more rebounds, and fewer assists (but probably more than Bam did in his 2nd year, or around that amount).

And he will have very solid D....on top of that he will hit 3s unlike Bam.

[sunskerr]

It's pretty obvious we're using Ayton properly. There is no world right now where he should be given the ball to operate instead of us utilizing Booker and Paul to get open looks for Mikal and Cam Johnson. I am not letting Ayton take fadeaways or pass out of the post without doing anything instead of just having Paul and Booker run everything, especially when we are trying to make the playoffs now. You guys said the same thing about Ayton under Kokoskov, but I'll be frank that it was obvious Kokoskov for all his faults also knew Ayton didn't have that sort of game where he can get you 20+ points a night with a variety of shots...heck even I knew this about one month in, as did many others here.

You let your best offensive players run the offense and Ayton is not one of them. Ayton is a guy who finishes the possession ala Mikal and Cam Johnson. We are utilizing him fine. If his scoring average dips under like 16 ppg after a few weeks I'll start to question his utilization.

[bhawk]

Credit where credit is due. Ayton played with some passion last night vs. Pelicans and Adams. It was really nice to see. 4 offensive rebounds was awesome. Fighting and diving for a ball against Adams... I was impressed. Keep it up DominAyton. Earn that tattoo.

[suns12345]

Credit where credit is due. Ayton played with some passion last night vs. Pelicans and Adams. It was really nice to see. 4 offensive rebounds was awesome. Fighting and diving for a ball against Adams... I was impressed. Keep it up DominAyton. Earn that tattoo.

And he finally got those O-boards and went straight back up with it rather than passing out. Hope that continues.

[bwgood77]

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[GoodBehavior]

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I hope he drops that goofy personality. I know some fans like that kind of thing, but I think he's beginning to understand the "corporate" side of public relations. HIs conditioning looks much better, I expect continued improvement from DA.

[Maze]

Right now their offense isn't set up to utilize Ayton well. If we were the SSOL Suns with Nash, Ayton would be averaging over 20. We would be running, which is what he is good at, and finishing before defenses could get set.

Currently our guards dribble forever and teams double Ayton and by the time he gets the ball he is double teamed and trying to score in the low post against a double team is worse than passing it out to an open 3 pt shooter.

Too bad Booker and Paul don't like to run and Booker tries to play iso and then throw it to Ayton when he's well covered.

Sure. its this current team that makes him so passive, clueless and inept. Any other Suns team in history would have a MVP in their hands.

I agree.Ayton's the Center version of Andrew Wiggins.Decent stats, but ultimately uninspired.

[Maze]

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Amare would've tore the rim down both times.No way would this guy put those 7 Seconds Or Less Suns over the top.He's just a decent role player.The Suns may have spent the #1 overall pick on a Mark West replacement.

[m1chal]

The Suns may have spent the #1 overall pick on a Mark West replacement.

This is quite harsh, but yeah, there is no fire in DA

[Maze]

The Suns may have spent the #1 overall pick on a Mark West replacement.

This is quite harsh, but yeah, there is no fire in DA

I only say that because I think Ayton's content with just being a "hustle" player.I don't think he'd be able to deal with the pressures of being a 1st/2nd option player.By being a juiced up Mark West,he can just fade into the background, put up decent stats, and get that vaunted 2nd contract.Which he stated was his main goal.In a few years, we'll just accept him for who he is, and stop complaining about his lack of aggressiveness.After that, he can just coast.