The One And Only Offseason Thread 5: Dinnertime!

[JDLAW]

If we have the room, I'd absorb him and a cheap asset for something minor if they want to dump him. No reason to restrict it to just Philly being involved.

I just looked at NY's cap situation and it makes zero sense for them to get rid of him at the deadline because it doesn't put them under the cap. The only reason to trade him would be to get far enough under the cap to be able to take back more salary in a trade before the deadline. It makes no sense for them to give up assets to get rid of him mid season unless they can also trade a few other salaries away.

That article was based on the thoughts and comments of Steve Kyler who is pretty much an idiot.

Someone out there correct me if I am wrong, but CAP is only for signing new contracts, all other metrics are based on actual salary. So, while Kyler doesn't seemt o fully get it, I think the reasoning behind such a trade would be to reduce the tax load on NYK. BY eliminating that last 7 million of Stats salary they could be saving themselves as much as $21 million I think as a multi-year tax payer. That's a lot of reasons to trade him.

On the flip side, however, simply acquiring Stat at that point in the season will not eliminate Philly's need to get to the salary floor. I believe (again, correct me if I'm wrong) the salary floor is based on actual salary, not cap, so taking Stat back would only get Philly 1/3rd of the way to the floor. In that case the rest of the team would pocket the extra $14-$15 million that would be left over.

That's how I understand it works. Not sure if I have it all straight though.

It is based on the cap number. Certain things count toward the floor that do not count agains the cap i.e. amnestied players count when looking at the floor.

As for Stoudemire's contract - he is owed $22M not $7M. The article is poorly written. What the writer was trying to say is that acquiring Stoudemire's contract will put the Sixers $7M above the floor - they are currently $15M below the floor. If the Sixers do not add salary, they will have to pay the $15M to their existing players - to the extent they are eligible - pro-rata to their roster players. Hence the incremental out of pocket to the Sixers is only $7M. I say to the extent eligible, I believe players on rookie contractors are capped by the CBA and cannot receive a share of the deficit if it would raise their compensation above the CBA cap. Given their roster make-up, the vets will get a nice bonus.

Further, these determinations are not made at the start of the season but after the trade deadline and the entire amount of the cap number counts against the floor and tax calculations. Financially it would be beneficial to take Stoudemire or whatever else the Sixers take on to get over the floor (assuming they want to) close to the deadline.

[RunDogGun]

yeah. at this point we will have to budge a little on the stance of not overpaying guys. it's just gonna have to be the case. if the champion spurs are giving Parker around $15mill a year, who are we to say that we're above overpaying EB?

How many chips did Parker help bring to SA? I think Parker has earned his money, and that example doesn't support budging on our stance. To me, it supports the opposite.

Who do you prefer on your team for the next 3 or 4 years?Bledsoe or Parker?I think Bledsoe has the same value than Parker at least.

I think you are missing the point. One has earned that pay, the other has yet to do so. If Bledsoe had that value, the offers would be coming in around that price, and they are not. His market value was set by Lowry (who had a better season with more games), not Parker's signing, who is coming from a completely different situation, and has brought a greater return to his team.

To me, the longer this drags out, the less value he has.

[JTrain]

Almost everyone seems to be considering two possibilities for Bledsoe's future:

1. He gets injured again and is never the same
2. He stays healthy and has a great career as one or the top guards in the league

But what about these?

3. He stays healthy, but his results regress. NBA history is littered with examples of players that had short bursts of greatness only to fade into mediocrity long before their bodies gave out. The reasons vary, but we know it happens. Bledsoe's body of work is tiny and there is no guarantee he can maintain the level he played at last season.

4. He stays healthy, but loses motivation once he signs the big contract. Again, there is no shortage of examples of this phenomenon in the NBA. Bledsoe's only (half) season as a starter in his career was on a contract year.

These are just possibilities, but I think they are good reasons for caution in negotiations. If we sign him, we will all be hoping for possibility #2, but we have to take the other seriously.

I would budge to 4/52 or 4/54, but after that I think we should save our eggs for other baskets.

[RunDogGun]

Suppose we worked out a deal with the Bucks..... And it involved Dudley. Would it be the first time players have been traded for each other twice???

Hasn't it happened before? I'll try and look it up. I'll edit it, if I find an example.

Edit: Jay Humphries and Blue Edwards, Edwards was traded for Humphries Utah and Bucks 1992, then in 1995 Edwards went from Boston to Utah for Humphries.

[Saberestar]

How many chips did Parker help bring to SA? I think Parker has earned his money, and that example doesn't support budging on our stance. To me, it supports the opposite.

Who do you prefer on your team for the next 3 or 4 years?Bledsoe or Parker?I think Bledsoe has the same value than Parker at least.

I think you are missing the point. One has earned that pay, the other has yet to do so. If Bledsoe had that value, the offers would be coming in around that price, and they are not. His market value was set by Lowry (who had a better season with more games), not Parker's signing, who is coming from a completely different situation, and has brought a greater return to his team.

To me, the longer this drags out, the less value he has.

Yes, I see that, Parker has earned every dollar of that new contract with his play in the last 10 years...but we are talking about the future right now. Parker at 32, with his mileage, will not play at Bledsoe' s level the next 3-4 years.
My point is that he is better than Lowry and he will be a better player than Parker for the next few years (right now and in the past Parker is and was better, of course).
I really do not see Lowry a great 2 way player and an All Star talent with some upside like Bledsoe is. He is one big step behind Bledsoe like a player.That is why I think we have to raise the offer and make Bledsoe an offer at $65M/5 years, and it would be a win/win for both sides.

[RunDogGun]

Who do you prefer on your team for the next 3 or 4 years?Bledsoe or Parker?I think Bledsoe has the same value than Parker at least.

I think you are missing the point. One has earned that pay, the other has yet to do so. If Bledsoe had that value, the offers would be coming in around that price, and they are not. His market value was set by Lowry (who had a better season with more games), not Parker's signing, who is coming from a completely different situation, and has brought a greater return to his team.

To me, the longer this drags out, the less value he has.

Yes, I see that, Parker has earned every dollar of that new contract with his play in the last 10 years...but we are talking about the future right now. Parker at 32, with his mileage, will not play at Bledsoe' s level the next 3-4 years.
My point is that he is better than Lowry and he will be a better player than Parker for the next few years (right now and in the past Parker is and was better, of course).
I really do not see Lowry a great 2 way player and an All Star talent with some upside like Bledsoe is. He is in one big step behind Bledsoe like a player.

Bledsoe's market value is not based on Parker, it was based on Lowry. It is irrelevant what any fans think of their value. Lowry also didn't have two knee injuries to the same knee. At this point, we (fans) have no idea if Bledsoe is 100% and will remain so throughout a season. The doubts about Bledsoe are valid, and enter in, when thinking of giving max contracts. Bledsoe isn't worth a max contract and hasn't earned it so far. It just doesn't seem logical to give that kind of money for half a season of work, which explains why no one offered him that contract.

[JTrain]

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, it seems like Bledsoe does not expect to have a very long NBA career (or he simply wants out of Phoenix). If he took the 4/48, his next contract negotiation would be at age 28, when most great players are at their prime. If that was the case, he could easily command a max five-year deal at that point, which would put him among the highest paid athletes in US professional sports history, even if he retired at age 33.

[Saberestar]

I think you are missing the point. One has earned that pay, the other has yet to do so. If Bledsoe had that value, the offers would be coming in around that price, and they are not. His market value was set by Lowry (who had a better season with more games), not Parker's signing, who is coming from a completely different situation, and has brought a greater return to his team.

To me, the longer this drags out, the less value he has.

Yes, I see that, Parker has earned every dollar of that new contract with his play in the last 10 years...but we are talking about the future right now. Parker at 32, with his mileage, will not play at Bledsoe' s level the next 3-4 years.
My point is that he is better than Lowry and he will be a better player than Parker for the next few years (right now and in the past Parker is and was better, of course).
I really do not see Lowry a great 2 way player and an All Star talent with some upside like Bledsoe is. He is in one big step behind Bledsoe like a player.

Bledsoe's market value is not based on Parker, it was based on Lowry. It is irrelevant what any fans think of their value. Lowry also didn't have two knee injuries to the same knee. At this point, we (fans) have no idea if Bledsoe is 100% and will remain so throughout a season. The doubts about Bledsoe are valid, and enter in, when thinking of giving max contracts. Bledsoe isn't worth a max contract and hasn't earned it so far. It just doesn't seem logical to give that kind of money for half a season of work, which explains why no one offered him that contract.

Yes,I am with you, and that is the reason why I would not sign him for $84M/5 years....he is not a Max player, but he played great after his injury and proved that he was explosive and healthy again. He is worth something better than $48/4 years looking the contracts that are around the league, just my opinion.

[SideSwipe]

Yes, I see that, Parker has earned every dollar of that new contract with his play in the last 10 years...but we are talking about the future right now. Parker at 32, with his mileage, will not play at Bledsoe' s level the next 3-4 years.
My point is that he is better than Lowry and he will be a better player than Parker for the next few years (right now and in the past Parker is and was better, of course).
I really do not see Lowry a great 2 way player and an All Star talent with some upside like Bledsoe is. He is in one big step behind Bledsoe like a player.

Bledsoe's market value is not based on Parker, it was based on Lowry. It is irrelevant what any fans think of their value. Lowry also didn't have two knee injuries to the same knee. At this point, we (fans) have no idea if Bledsoe is 100% and will remain so throughout a season. The doubts about Bledsoe are valid, and enter in, when thinking of giving max contracts. Bledsoe isn't worth a max contract and hasn't earned it so far. It just doesn't seem logical to give that kind of money for half a season of work, which explains why no one offered him that contract.

Yes,I am with you, and that is the reason why I would not sign him for $84M/5 years....he is not a Max player, but he played great after his injury and proved that he was explosive and healthy again. He is worth something better than $48/4 years looking the contracts that are around the league, just my opinion.

The Bledsoe/ Lowry correlative argument comes from the fact that both really only showed a good half-season. Lowry because it finally clicked and Bledsoe because of injuries. TOR was trying to trade Lowry the first half of last year and many were surprised he was there at the deadline. After that Lowry put on a show the 2nd half of the season. Bledsoe's performance came earlier in the season. It seems easier for me to trust that Bledsoe will recover from injury than it is for me to trust that Lowry won't go back to being mediocre. With that I would feel better about going over $12/season for Bledsoe than Lowry. I would feel pretty confident in a deal if it got done up to $13.5 mil, because I think Bledsoe is better than Lowry.

[JDLAW]

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, it seems like Bledsoe does not expect to have a very long NBA career (or he simply wants out of Phoenix). If he took the 4/48, his next contract negotiation would be at age 28, when most great players are at their prime. If that was the case, he could easily command a max five-year deal at that point, which would put him among the highest paid athletes in US professional sports history, even if he retired at age 33.

If he desperately wants out of Phoenix, he'll take the QO. The fact that he asked for 5 years tells me he does not desperately want out of PHX. He wants to be paid the max and he might not care who gives it to him. Its ego and "branding (EBled2)" more than anything. His Suns uni is still displayed on this twitter page. If he really and desperately wants out, I would think that would be gone.

As for comparing him with everyone else - it is a futile exercise because there are as many reasons he should be paid less than a guy like Parker as there are reasons he should be paid equal or more. In the real world, the market for your services and the value someone places on your services determines your compensation.

In my opinion, if the Suns pay Bledsoe the max he seeks, they will certainly sign him and he'll be here for 5 years. But if they pay him the max and he performs well, he will be overpaid for his entire career - much like Joe Johnson. I do not know of anyone outside of Joe Johnson's parents who believes Joe Johnson's performance matched his pay scale - even in his best years.

[JTrain]

Most people think Bledsoe is clearly the superior player to Lowry and the only advantage Lowry has is his health. I don't really think so. Lowry had a special season. Bledsoe has the great athleticism and excitement, but statistically Lowry definitely was superior.

[JTrain]

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, it seems like Bledsoe does not expect to have a very long NBA career (or he simply wants out of Phoenix). If he took the 4/48, his next contract negotiation would be at age 28, when most great players are at their prime. If that was the case, he could easily command a max five-year deal at that point, which would put him among the highest paid athletes in US professional sports history, even if he retired at age 33.

If he desperately wants out of Phoenix, he'll take the QO. The fact that he asked for 5 years tells me he does not desperately want out of PHX. He wants to be paid the max and he might not care who gives it to him. Its ego and "branding (EBled2)" more than anything. His Suns uni is still displayed on this twitter page. If he really and desperately wants out, I would think that would be gone.

As for comparing him with everyone else - it is a futile exercise because there are as many reasons he should be paid less than a guy like Parker as there are reasons he should be paid equal or more. In the real world, the market for your services and the value someone places on your services determines your compensation.

In my opinion, if the Suns pay Bledsoe the max he seeks, they will certainly sign him and he'll be here for 5 years. But if they pay him the max and he performs well, he will be overpaid for his entire career - much like Joe Johnson. I do not know of anyone outside of Joe Johnson's parents who believes Joe Johnson's performance matched his pay scale - even in his best years.

"Desperately" is too strong, I think. I believe he would prefer to play elsewhere but if we are stupid enough to give him 84M then he will suck it up and sign.

As for his Twitter, are you referring to this?

[tweet]https://twitter.com/EBled2/status/369270872852295680[/tweet]

That's just a retweet of a fan wearing his jersey shirt in August. Don't see any significance to it. In fact Bledsoe's current profile picture is him in LAC gear.

[RunDogGun]

I still see no reason to up our offer. If it is true that they won't entertain a non max offer, let him wait it out and get nervous. No reason to give in. We made a fair offer (if that offer was made). If Bledsoe and his agent want to risk millions of dollars, then let them.

So far McD has made moves that would allow us to move forward in a similar fashion.

[bwgood77]

I just looked at NY's cap situation and it makes zero sense for them to get rid of him at the deadline because it doesn't put them under the cap. The only reason to trade him would be to get far enough under the cap to be able to take back more salary in a trade before the deadline. It makes no sense for them to give up assets to get rid of him mid season unless they can also trade a few other salaries away.

That article was based on the thoughts and comments of Steve Kyler who is pretty much an idiot.

Someone out there correct me if I am wrong, but CAP is only for signing new contracts, all other metrics are based on actual salary. So, while Kyler doesn't seemt o fully get it, I think the reasoning behind such a trade would be to reduce the tax load on NYK. BY eliminating that last 7 million of Stats salary they could be saving themselves as much as $21 million I think as a multi-year tax payer. That's a lot of reasons to trade him.

On the flip side, however, simply acquiring Stat at that point in the season will not eliminate Philly's need to get to the salary floor. I believe (again, correct me if I'm wrong) the salary floor is based on actual salary, not cap, so taking Stat back would only get Philly 1/3rd of the way to the floor. In that case the rest of the team would pocket the extra $14-$15 million that would be left over.

That's how I understand it works. Not sure if I have it all straight though.

It is based on the cap number. Certain things count toward the floor that do not count agains the cap i.e. amnestied players count when looking at the floor.

As for Stoudemire's contract - he is owed $22M not $7M. The article is poorly written. What the writer was trying to say is that acquiring Stoudemire's contract will put the Sixers $7M above the floor - they are currently $15M below the floor. If the Sixers do not add salary, they will have to pay the $15M to their existing players - to the extent they are eligible - pro-rata to their roster players. Hence the incremental out of pocket to the Sixers is only $7M. I say to the extent eligible, I believe players on rookie contractors are capped by the CBA and cannot receive a share of the deficit if it would raise their compensation above the CBA cap. Given their roster make-up, the vets will get a nice bonus.

Further, these determinations are not made at the start of the season but after the trade deadline and the entire amount of the cap number counts against the floor and tax calculations. Financially it would be beneficial to take Stoudemire or whatever else the Sixers take on to get over the floor (assuming they want to) close to the deadline.

As for SideSwipe's point about the tax, you are right SideSwipe, it probably would amount to some luxury tax savings for the Knicks. Whether Dolan, who has never seemed to care too much about money since he has so much of it, values those savings enough to give up MORE young assets or picks when they are already scarce on those types of assets, I don't know. But they seem to have given away quite a few picks over the last couple of years.

As for JDLAW's point, yes, he is owed $23 million, but I was thinking when I read it that he must mean that because of when the trade deadline is, Philly's out of pocket payment portion of that $23 million would be $7 million, because they only had him for about 30% of the year.

But I guess you are saying that Philly would be responsible for the entire $23 million going to Amare this year? If this is the case you are right.

If they only had to pay him $7 million but got the full cap hit of $23 million, then it seems like they would save quite a bit of money by acquiring him though, because if they are $16 million under the floor (meaning they would have to pay existing players that money without Amare), then by acquiring Amare they save that $16 million, but pay Amare $7 million out of pocket for the pro rata portion of the season, and come out ahead $9 million.

[JDLAW]

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, it seems like Bledsoe does not expect to have a very long NBA career (or he simply wants out of Phoenix). If he took the 4/48, his next contract negotiation would be at age 28, when most great players are at their prime. If that was the case, he could easily command a max five-year deal at that point, which would put him among the highest paid athletes in US professional sports history, even if he retired at age 33.

If he desperately wants out of Phoenix, he'll take the QO. The fact that he asked for 5 years tells me he does not desperately want out of PHX. He wants to be paid the max and he might not care who gives it to him. Its ego and "branding (EBled2)" more than anything. His Suns uni is still displayed on this twitter page. If he really and desperately wants out, I would think that would be gone.

As for comparing him with everyone else - it is a futile exercise because there are as many reasons he should be paid less than a guy like Parker as there are reasons he should be paid equal or more. In the real world, the market for your services and the value someone places on your services determines your compensation.

In my opinion, if the Suns pay Bledsoe the max he seeks, they will certainly sign him and he'll be here for 5 years. But if they pay him the max and he performs well, he will be overpaid for his entire career - much like Joe Johnson. I do not know of anyone outside of Joe Johnson's parents who believes Joe Johnson's performance matched his pay scale - even in his best years.

"Desperately" is too strong, I think. I believe he would prefer to play elsewhere but if we are stupid enough to give him 84M then he will suck it up and sign.

As for his Twitter, are you referring to this?

[tweet]https://twitter.com/EBled2/status/369270872852295680[/tweet]

That's just a retweet of a fan wearing his jersey shirt in August. Don't see any significance to it. In fact Bledsoe's current profile picture is him in LAC gear.

No i am not referring to that. He has a Twitter page you'll find it if you search, in which he displays a number of different things in this life - one of them is his orange Suns Uni.

[JDLAW]

Someone out there correct me if I am wrong, but CAP is only for signing new contracts, all other metrics are based on actual salary. So, while Kyler doesn't seemt o fully get it, I think the reasoning behind such a trade would be to reduce the tax load on NYK. BY eliminating that last 7 million of Stats salary they could be saving themselves as much as $21 million I think as a multi-year tax payer. That's a lot of reasons to trade him.

On the flip side, however, simply acquiring Stat at that point in the season will not eliminate Philly's need to get to the salary floor. I believe (again, correct me if I'm wrong) the salary floor is based on actual salary, not cap, so taking Stat back would only get Philly 1/3rd of the way to the floor. In that case the rest of the team would pocket the extra $14-$15 million that would be left over.

That's how I understand it works. Not sure if I have it all straight though.

It is based on the cap number. Certain things count toward the floor that do not count agains the cap i.e. amnestied players count when looking at the floor.

As for Stoudemire's contract - he is owed $22M not $7M. The article is poorly written. What the writer was trying to say is that acquiring Stoudemire's contract will put the Sixers $7M above the floor - they are currently $15M below the floor. If the Sixers do not add salary, they will have to pay the $15M to their existing players - to the extent they are eligible - pro-rata to their roster players. Hence the incremental out of pocket to the Sixers is only $7M. I say to the extent eligible, I believe players on rookie contractors are capped by the CBA and cannot receive a share of the deficit if it would raise their compensation above the CBA cap. Given their roster make-up, the vets will get a nice bonus.

Further, these determinations are not made at the start of the season but after the trade deadline and the entire amount of the cap number counts against the floor and tax calculations. Financially it would be beneficial to take Stoudemire or whatever else the Sixers take on to get over the floor (assuming they want to) close to the deadline.

As for SideSwipe's point about the tax, you are right SideSwipe, it probably would amount to some luxury tax savings for the Knicks. Whether Dolan, who has never seemed to care too much about money since he has so much of it, values those savings enough to give up MORE young assets or picks when they are already scarce on those types of assets, I don't know. But they seem to have given away quite a few picks over the last couple of years.

As for JDLAW's point, yes, he is owed $23 million, but I was thinking when I read it that he must mean that because of when the trade deadline is, Philly's out of pocket payment portion of that $23 million would be $7 million, because they only had him for about 30% of the year.

But I guess you are saying that Philly would be responsible for the entire $23 million going to Amare this year? If this is the case you are right.

If they only had to pay him $7 million but got the full cap hit of $23 million, then it seems like they would save quite a bit of money by acquiring him though, because if they are $16 million under the floor (meaning they would have to pay existing players that money without Amare), then by acquiring Amare they save that $16 million, but pay Amare $7 million out of pocket for the pro rata portion of the season, and come out ahead $9 million.

Hence my comment about a poorly written article.

[JTrain]

No i am not referring to that. He has a Twitter page you'll find it if you search, in which he displays a number of different things in this life - one of them is his orange Suns Uni.

Sounds like a fan page of some sort.

[JDLAW]

No i am not referring to that. He has a Twitter page you'll find it if you search, in which he displays a number of different things in this life - one of them is his orange Suns Uni.

Sounds like a fan page of some sort.

No it is his. - its his white uni.

[Jdiddy701]

Oh crap.. Bledsoe is in Atlanta according to his Instagram.

[Nando88]

Oh crap.. Bledsoe is in Atlanta according to his Instagram.

Ugh.. Here come's another wave of Horford to phoenix trade scenarios


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums