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Trade Discussion

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Re: Trade Discussion 

Post#1601 » by NavLDO » Mon Feb 22, 2016 3:14 pm

Frank Lee wrote:Man you make up **** Nav.

The past month + I have maintained neutrality for trading Morris...but maintained he will traded in the off season. -- So the fact that you 'changed' your mind 1+ months ago makes me a liar? You are honestly going to try to state that you haven't complained about McD not trading Morris for the last 6 months? (minus the last month, I guess?) OK, Frank, if you say so... I don't demand, I Complain...FIFY.... You are lying to say I have been complaining for the past 6 months to trade MoBro. I think my last post prior to the trade was the FO will be making a statement on deadline day. Don't confuse or lump me with others.

I think Dragic is a better point guard than Knight. And a better facilitator than Bledsoe.... look what he did here, not so much what he does in Miami, under entirely different circumstances, entirely different team. Is an extra 3 mill per is really such a detrimental factor? If So, then NEVER mention how Knights deal will look like a bargain once the cap goes up. (Like you did with Dragic's???)
You also assume we would have paid Dragic the same as Miami (which will likely look like a normal deal as the spending spree escalates)
Its trivial at this point. Just stop it. Until Knight shows he can run a team, don't tell me he is better than Dragic just because of his price tag. Stats don't show low BBIQ and chuckiness. He has yet to prove his worth. You guys can't defend him without pointing out how F-n young he is and then tea leaf his future improvement. The guy has never shown he can lead a team, not here, not in Detroit, not in Milwaukee, not even in Kentucky...where as Dragic has proven he could. -- FOR ONE SEASON, Frank, that's it. So because he did that for ONE season, and now that he's 29, we are supposed to expect that he'll get better? At least with Knight, there's a chance. Dragic got what he wanted, and failed. He did as much here as well, NOT only in Miami, and all he did was whine and complain, because he wasn't top dog. So yeah, Knight IS the better player, and if you can't see that, then go spend some time on the Heat forum; they'll help explain it for you. And Knight is $3M cheaper, so yes, I'll take the 5 year younger, better, cheaper player, but you go ahead on how Dragic is the better facilitator with is 5.5 APG in the one PG system he's in now.

And btw, we were bad when we were healthy. -- And we are WORSE now, Frank. No one claimed we were good, only that we were better when healthy. Is that not true, Frank?

Go ahead and half full the remainder of the year. There are two sides to every coin. also, I love how you guys always blame Sarver for forcing McDoTooMuchTooFast ransacking a team 1-2 games away from the playoffs... like any owner/Fan wouldn't expect improvement? Like any GM wouldn't try to put a better team on the floor ? It is y'all that have created this myth that Sarver hindered McDogPile's real tanking plan....even when he has said himself that he got too tradey/antsy that yr. Like it was a bad thing to be good that yr...as if picking 14th was that much worse than 5 or 6th? Who rather would you have drafted that yr? Marcus Smart, Exum, Gordon ? Damn, we end up with Warren. -- Agree here, Frank. And guess who picked Warren, Frank?

Bottom line is Ws vs Ls. You guys seem to be going down the path that next yr we should suck too. You might be OK with that, but it could cost McDoubleDown his job. -- I'm not OK with that, but it's a necessary evil. It takes time to build a team.


But you still have talked your way around the questions I asked, Frank...without answering them, of course. Which was the poor trade? The Pick for Knight, or Dragic for Picks?
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Re: Trade Discussion 

Post#1602 » by bwgood77 » Mon Feb 22, 2016 3:37 pm

AtheJ415 wrote:
Frank Lee wrote:pining for Dragic? or pole dancing for Knight... how different are the two ? And saying Dragic was a flash in the pan, while propping up Knight with futuristic I told ya sos doesn't hold water here. I've watched them both play... haven't you ? One clearly is not a PG. Yet claims he is.

I will yield this forum to the countless boisterous Yes men who have wrapped cotton candy around this Front office, insulating them from any criticism that may upset their own spin. Have a good day.



Very different. Your entire crusade is based on some insane theory that we missed out and would be close to a title if only we had kept arguably the worst contract in basketball. It's insanity.


I'm not going to go through all the contracts in the league, and I don't think keeping Dragic at that price was a good investment given the age of our players, but I don't think that means we needed to sign Knight.

Dragic will likely even play better once Wade is gone. Even though Dragic hasn't been great playing with a great high usage guy like Wade, when Wade is out of the lineup he has played much better. Last game he had 24, 8 and 7, and in the game before that he had 17, 10 and 5 with 4 steals. Even in your favorite stat, WS/48 he more than doubles Knight.

His contract is no bargain by any means, but for a team like Miami, it's probably worth it given they want to win now, he can hold the fort when Wade sits (Bosh was out too) and he led a team with Amare and Green as their replacements to a 20 pt win against the Wizards.

Again, I didn't want to keep him after what went down, and given the state of our team, but once the new contracts kick in this summer and next, his contract won't look so bad and he will only have a few years left on it, and likely will be the vet running the team anyway. Even at the end of his contract, he will still be a couple years younger than Nash was the last time he took us to the WCF.
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Re: Trade Discussion 

Post#1603 » by WeekapaugGroove » Mon Feb 22, 2016 3:56 pm

bwgood77 wrote:
AtheJ415 wrote:
Frank Lee wrote:pining for Dragic? or pole dancing for Knight... how different are the two ? And saying Dragic was a flash in the pan, while propping up Knight with futuristic I told ya sos doesn't hold water here. I've watched them both play... haven't you ? One clearly is not a PG. Yet claims he is.

I will yield this forum to the countless boisterous Yes men who have wrapped cotton candy around this Front office, insulating them from any criticism that may upset their own spin. Have a good day.



Very different. Your entire crusade is based on some insane theory that we missed out and would be close to a title if only we had kept arguably the worst contract in basketball. It's insanity.


I'm not going to go through all the contracts in the league, and I don't think keeping Dragic at that price was a good investment given the age of our players, but I don't think that means we needed to sign Knight.

Dragic will likely even play better once Wade is gone. Even though Dragic hasn't been great playing with a great high usage guy like Wade, when Wade is out of the lineup he has played much better. Last game he had 24, 8 and 7, and in the game before that he had 17, 10 and 5 with 4 steals. Even in your favorite stat, WS/48 he more than doubles Knight.

His contract is no bargain by any means, but for a team like Miami, it's probably worth it given they want to win now, he can hold the fort when Wade sits (Bosh was out too) and he led a team with Amare and Green as their replacements to a 20 pt win against the Wizards.

Again, I didn't want to keep him after what went down, and given the state of our team, but once the new contracts kick in this summer and next, his contract won't look so bad and he will only have a few years left on it, and likely will be the vet running the team anyway. Even at the end of his contract, he will still be a couple years younger than Nash was the last time he took us to the WCF.



It's becoming pretty clear for Goran to put up numbers he needs to be the lead high usage guard for his team.

My question is how good can your team be with Goran as the lead guy? Is he good enough to lead a team to a couple playoff series wins? I have my doubts.
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Re: Trade Discussion 

Post#1604 » by MrMiyagi » Mon Feb 22, 2016 4:27 pm

DirtyDez wrote:
MrMiyagi wrote:
DirtyDez wrote:
CP3 is Doc's guy. From what we've heard he's more open to trading Blake even though it should be the other way around. Someone will try to take advantage of that but I agree in they'll get better offers in the offseason. That offer to the Nuggetts was likely bunk. Ultimately I think he'll stay in LA for another season then leave in FA. Maybe Boston if they trade for Cousins.

Yeah, but your trade had us getting Blake and DeAndre. DeAndre was the reason The Clips could entertain the idea of trading Blake because he does so well with CP3. They wouldn't unload Blake and DeAndre and try to build around CP3. It just doesn't make sense.


You thought I put Jordan in their cause we'd want him? I'd much rather roll with Chandler/Len who make less $$ combined and won't get targeted in the playoffs. If it would cost less to get Blake without taking DJ then sign me up.

No, I'm saying the Clips wouldn't trade DeAndre and Blake because THEY like the DeAndre/CP3 combo. I never said anything about you or the Suns wanting DeAndre.
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Re: Trade Discussion 

Post#1605 » by bwgood77 » Mon Feb 22, 2016 4:39 pm

WeekapaugGroove wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
AtheJ415 wrote:

Very different. Your entire crusade is based on some insane theory that we missed out and would be close to a title if only we had kept arguably the worst contract in basketball. It's insanity.


I'm not going to go through all the contracts in the league, and I don't think keeping Dragic at that price was a good investment given the age of our players, but I don't think that means we needed to sign Knight.

Dragic will likely even play better once Wade is gone. Even though Dragic hasn't been great playing with a great high usage guy like Wade, when Wade is out of the lineup he has played much better. Last game he had 24, 8 and 7, and in the game before that he had 17, 10 and 5 with 4 steals. Even in your favorite stat, WS/48 he more than doubles Knight.

His contract is no bargain by any means, but for a team like Miami, it's probably worth it given they want to win now, he can hold the fort when Wade sits (Bosh was out too) and he led a team with Amare and Green as their replacements to a 20 pt win against the Wizards.

Again, I didn't want to keep him after what went down, and given the state of our team, but once the new contracts kick in this summer and next, his contract won't look so bad and he will only have a few years left on it, and likely will be the vet running the team anyway. Even at the end of his contract, he will still be a couple years younger than Nash was the last time he took us to the WCF.



It's becoming pretty clear for Goran to put up numbers he needs to be the lead high usage guard for his team.

My question is how good can your team be with Goran as the lead guy? Is he good enough to lead a team to a couple playoff series wins? I have my doubts.


As do I, but I have those same doubts with Bledsoe and Knight.
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Re: Trade Discussion 

Post#1606 » by sunsbum » Mon Feb 22, 2016 5:49 pm

WeekapaugGroove wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
AtheJ415 wrote:

Very different. Your entire crusade is based on some insane theory that we missed out and would be close to a title if only we had kept arguably the worst contract in basketball. It's insanity.


I'm not going to go through all the contracts in the league, and I don't think keeping Dragic at that price was a good investment given the age of our players, but I don't think that means we needed to sign Knight.

Dragic will likely even play better once Wade is gone. Even though Dragic hasn't been great playing with a great high usage guy like Wade, when Wade is out of the lineup he has played much better. Last game he had 24, 8 and 7, and in the game before that he had 17, 10 and 5 with 4 steals. Even in your favorite stat, WS/48 he more than doubles Knight.

His contract is no bargain by any means, but for a team like Miami, it's probably worth it given they want to win now, he can hold the fort when Wade sits (Bosh was out too) and he led a team with Amare and Green as their replacements to a 20 pt win against the Wizards.

Again, I didn't want to keep him after what went down, and given the state of our team, but once the new contracts kick in this summer and next, his contract won't look so bad and he will only have a few years left on it, and likely will be the vet running the team anyway. Even at the end of his contract, he will still be a couple years younger than Nash was the last time he took us to the WCF.



It's becoming pretty clear for Goran to put up numbers he needs to be the lead high usage guard for his team.

My question is how good can your team be with Goran as the lead guy? Is he good enough to lead a team to a couple playoff series wins? I have my doubts.


Wow, am I really reading this!?! Listen I wanted Goran gone the second he didn't want to be here but you guys a having a serious case of amnesia right now. You can talk all you want about his averages over in Miami but Goran is still the same guy he was in Phoenix which was a dude that was in teir 2 MVP talks. I cant believe you guys don't think he could lead a team in the playoffs!!! I cry at the thought of Goran slashing to the hoop and dishing it Steve Nash style out to Booker on the wing for a crisp high arcing splash.
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Re: Trade Discussion 

Post#1607 » by bigfoot » Mon Feb 22, 2016 8:45 pm

Brandon Knight for Goran Dragic ... would you do that trade?
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Re: Trade Discussion 

Post#1608 » by Sonne » Mon Feb 22, 2016 8:50 pm

bigfoot wrote:Brandon Knight for Goran Dragic ... would you do that trade?



hell no dragic sux
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Re: Trade Discussion 

Post#1609 » by sunsbum » Mon Feb 22, 2016 8:54 pm

bigfoot wrote:Brandon Knight for Goran Dragic ... would you do that trade?
I would polish someones balls if we could get rid of Knightmare.
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Re: Trade Discussion 

Post#1610 » by LukasBMW » Mon Feb 22, 2016 8:58 pm

The Dmo trade got voided!

His back must really be jacked up. I'd sign him to a small deal (or even a decent 1 year deal with a 2nd year team option) and see if our medical staff can bring him back to life.

If he can get healthy, he'd be a great pickup.
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Re: Trade Discussion 

Post#1611 » by BobbieL » Mon Feb 22, 2016 9:13 pm

LukasBMW wrote:The Dmo trade got voided!

His back must really be jacked up. I'd sign him to a small deal (or even a decent 1 year deal with a 2nd year team option) and see if our medical staff can bring him back to life.

If he can get healthy, he'd be a great pickup.


Got to feel bad - team makes a trade to put themselves in the best possible position for not only this season but future seasons and the back of D-Mo has slowed down the "plan and process" in Philadelphia. There goes the 2nd round draft choice Sam Hinkie desperately wants

Rockets are kind of hosed on this one - didn't get the first round pick or cap relief (I smile on the inside!)
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Re: Trade Discussion 

Post#1612 » by bwgood77 » Mon Feb 22, 2016 9:15 pm

BobbieL wrote:
LukasBMW wrote:The Dmo trade got voided!

His back must really be jacked up. I'd sign him to a small deal (or even a decent 1 year deal with a 2nd year team option) and see if our medical staff can bring him back to life.

If he can get healthy, he'd be a great pickup.


Got to feel bad - team makes a trade to put themselves in the best possible position for not only this season but future seasons and the back of D-Mo has slowed down the "plan and process" in Philadelphia. There goes the 2nd round draft choice Sam Hinkie desperately wants

Rockets are kind of hosed on this one - didn't get the first round pick or cap relief (I smile on the inside!)


The Sixers also waived JaKarr Sampson to make room for Anthony who they planned on waiving and then were going to re-sign Sampson when he cleared waivers, but Sampson signed with Denver. So the Sixers lost not only the pick, but a player they otherwise wouldn't have waived.
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Re: Trade Discussion 

Post#1613 » by Amareca » Mon Feb 22, 2016 9:25 pm

LukasBMW wrote:The Dmo trade got voided!

His back must really be jacked up. I'd sign him to a small deal (or even a decent 1 year deal with a 2nd year team option) and see if our medical staff can bring him back to life.

If he can get healthy, he'd be a great pickup.


Ahahaha I so knew it that someone would bring up signing Motiejunas even now.

Ridiculous, he was never all that good to begin with.
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Re: Trade Discussion 

Post#1614 » by Amareca » Mon Feb 22, 2016 9:29 pm

sunsbum wrote:
WeekapaugGroove wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
I'm not going to go through all the contracts in the league, and I don't think keeping Dragic at that price was a good investment given the age of our players, but I don't think that means we needed to sign Knight.

Dragic will likely even play better once Wade is gone. Even though Dragic hasn't been great playing with a great high usage guy like Wade, when Wade is out of the lineup he has played much better. Last game he had 24, 8 and 7, and in the game before that he had 17, 10 and 5 with 4 steals. Even in your favorite stat, WS/48 he more than doubles Knight.

His contract is no bargain by any means, but for a team like Miami, it's probably worth it given they want to win now, he can hold the fort when Wade sits (Bosh was out too) and he led a team with Amare and Green as their replacements to a 20 pt win against the Wizards.

Again, I didn't want to keep him after what went down, and given the state of our team, but once the new contracts kick in this summer and next, his contract won't look so bad and he will only have a few years left on it, and likely will be the vet running the team anyway. Even at the end of his contract, he will still be a couple years younger than Nash was the last time he took us to the WCF.



It's becoming pretty clear for Goran to put up numbers he needs to be the lead high usage guard for his team.

My question is how good can your team be with Goran as the lead guy? Is he good enough to lead a team to a couple playoff series wins? I have my doubts.


Wow, am I really reading this!?! Listen I wanted Goran gone the second he didn't want to be here but you guys a having a serious case of amnesia right now. You can talk all you want about his averages over in Miami but Goran is still the same guy he was in Phoenix which was a dude that was in teir 2 MVP talks. I cant believe you guys don't think he could lead a team in the playoffs!!! I cry at the thought of Goran slashing to the hoop and dishing it Steve Nash style out to Booker on the wing for a crisp high arcing splash.


Goran Dragic was never in MVP talks and he never played winning basketball as the #1 guy.
When we won 48 games we got our record while Bledsoe was healthy.
Dragic raised his stats when Bledsoe was out but the team only played .500 ball and fell out of the playoffs.

If we have Amnesia than you were high 24/7.
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Re: Trade Discussion 

Post#1615 » by bwgood77 » Mon Feb 22, 2016 9:33 pm

Amareca wrote:
sunsbum wrote:
WeekapaugGroove wrote:

It's becoming pretty clear for Goran to put up numbers he needs to be the lead high usage guard for his team.

My question is how good can your team be with Goran as the lead guy? Is he good enough to lead a team to a couple playoff series wins? I have my doubts.


Wow, am I really reading this!?! Listen I wanted Goran gone the second he didn't want to be here but you guys a having a serious case of amnesia right now. You can talk all you want about his averages over in Miami but Goran is still the same guy he was in Phoenix which was a dude that was in teir 2 MVP talks. I cant believe you guys don't think he could lead a team in the playoffs!!! I cry at the thought of Goran slashing to the hoop and dishing it Steve Nash style out to Booker on the wing for a crisp high arcing splash.


Goran Dragic was never in MVP talks and he never played winning basketball as the #1 guy.
When we won 48 games we got our record while Bledsoe was healthy.
Dragic raised his stats when Bledsoe was out but the team only played .500 ball and fell out of the playoffs.

If we have Amnesia than you were high 24/7.


500 not bad in that tough west playing with Green, Tucker, Frye and Plumlee. Not sure I see Knight or Bledsoe leading those guys to glory by themselves.
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Re: Trade Discussion 

Post#1616 » by saintEscaton » Mon Feb 22, 2016 10:03 pm

bwgood77 wrote:
Amareca wrote:
sunsbum wrote:
Wow, am I really reading this!?! Listen I wanted Goran gone the second he didn't want to be here but you guys a having a serious case of amnesia right now. You can talk all you want about his averages over in Miami but Goran is still the same guy he was in Phoenix which was a dude that was in teir 2 MVP talks. I cant believe you guys don't think he could lead a team in the playoffs!!! I cry at the thought of Goran slashing to the hoop and dishing it Steve Nash style out to Booker on the wing for a crisp high arcing splash.


Goran Dragic was never in MVP talks and he never played winning basketball as the #1 guy.
When we won 48 games we got our record while Bledsoe was healthy.
Dragic raised his stats when Bledsoe was out but the team only played .500 ball and fell out of the playoffs.

If we have Amnesia than you were high 24/7.


500 not bad in that tough west playing with Green, Tucker, Frye and Plumlee. Not sure I see Knight or Bledsoe leading those guys to glory by themselves.


Maybe he prefers sub .500 ball. Who's to judge? I don't think we will even be in contention for the 9th seed next season, this squad when healthy is good for only 35 wins tops, but hey I can be a revisionist historian too
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Re: Trade Discussion 

Post#1617 » by bwgood77 » Mon Feb 22, 2016 10:30 pm

saintEscaton wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
Amareca wrote:
Goran Dragic was never in MVP talks and he never played winning basketball as the #1 guy.
When we won 48 games we got our record while Bledsoe was healthy.
Dragic raised his stats when Bledsoe was out but the team only played .500 ball and fell out of the playoffs.

If we have Amnesia than you were high 24/7.


500 not bad in that tough west playing with Green, Tucker, Frye and Plumlee. Not sure I see Knight or Bledsoe leading those guys to glory by themselves.


Maybe he prefers sub .500 ball. Who's to judge? I don't think we will even be in contention for the 9th seed next season, this squad when healthy ha is good for only 35 wins tops, but nice revisionist history


I did find out something interesting about Knight though. He did lead the Bucks to their franchise's worst record in history...leader in points AND assists! http://nba-historical-teams.pointafter.com/l/1452/2013-2014-Milwaukee-Bucks
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Re: Trade Discussion 

Post#1618 » by Bogyo » Mon Feb 22, 2016 10:38 pm

bigfoot wrote:Brandon Knight for Goran Dragic ... would you do that trade?


In a heartbeat.
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Re: Trade Discussion 

Post#1619 » by saintEscaton » Mon Feb 22, 2016 10:59 pm

bwgood77 wrote:
saintEscaton wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
500 not bad in that tough west playing with Green, Tucker, Frye and Plumlee. Not sure I see Knight or Bledsoe leading those guys to glory by themselves.


Maybe he prefers sub .500 ball. Who's to judge? I don't think we will even be in contention for the 9th seed next season, this squad when healthy ha is good for only 35 wins tops, but nice revisionist history


I did find out something interesting about Knight though. He did lead the Bucks to their franchise's worst record in history...leader in points AND assists! http://nba-historical-teams.pointafter.com/l/1452/2013-2014-Milwaukee-Bucks


The main reason the Bucks even made the playoffs last year was their stingy defense, which allowed the second lowest number of point per 100 possessions. Knight was not a “borderline All-Star” who got snubbed, IT blows him out of the water this season alone. Their offense was at the league bottom with Knight as the facilitator and actually improved when he was benched on a significant sample size. So basically he’s a net negative running the point and a zero-sum player at SG (has more off nights than on nights, coupled with him being a overmatched defensive liability who can’t guard his own shadow an can easily just be shot over).

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Re: Trade Discussion 

Post#1620 » by bwgood77 » Mon Feb 22, 2016 11:28 pm

saintEscaton wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
saintEscaton wrote:
Maybe he prefers sub .500 ball. Who's to judge? I don't think we will even be in contention for the 9th seed next season, this squad when healthy ha is good for only 35 wins tops, but nice revisionist history


I did find out something interesting about Knight though. He did lead the Bucks to their franchise's worst record in history...leader in points AND assists! http://nba-historical-teams.pointafter.com/l/1452/2013-2014-Milwaukee-Bucks


The main reason the Bucks even made the playoffs last year was their stingy defense, which allowed the second lowest number of point per 100 possessions. Knight was not a “borderline All-Star” who got snubbed, IT blows him out of the water this season alone. Their offense was at the league bottom with Knight as the facilitator and actually improved when he was benched on a significant sample size. So basically he’s a net negative running the point and a zero-sum player at SG (has more off nights than on nights, coupled with him being a overmatched defensive liability who can’t guard his own shadow an can easily just be shot over).

For reference
Image


Yeah, I just spent about a half hour looking over his numbers from the past, even noticing that the 2013-14 year, Ramon Sessions actually had much better #s than he did. I couldn't figure out for the life of me WHY McD would have made that trade to pay him that much, especially with Bledsoe on the team. I like him better as a 2 guard, but still not that much because he ISO's, dribbles and takes long 2s way too much.

I don't mind trading IT, and I don't need to compare him to IT. Just looking at him by himself, about the ONLY thing I can say is that he improved every year, particularly in his shooting %, but mostly across the lines BEFORE we traded for him. Since he's been a Sun, he has regressed to pre 2013 levels (and he was still not great in 13-14). His regression with us is likely due to a bunch of factors, between his injuries, other injuries, different teammates, different coaches, disgruntled players, etc, but even prior to the trade, at his peak value, he didn't look like THAT good of a player.

I guess my only hope I have with him his that he gets back on the steady climb in improvement, and hopefully gets back to that 2015 level (with Milwaukee) and improves from that point.

Because looking at his numbers now, he isn't tradable at what he makes. He MIGHT be tradable if he got back to the level of 2015 Milwaukee, but probably not for very much value unless he improved on that.

That trade imo is without a doubt McD's biggest blunder. I mean, he had those great 1 or 2 games, but overall, that move looks like a panic move, and a very bad one.

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