Official Trade Thread: New Year, New Thread, New Laughs

[AZWildByNature]

Let’s talk about the suns. Do they need to make a trade at the deadline to get into the playoffs and if so, who would you trade? Thx.

Larry Coon
Yeah, I think their hold on the 8th spot is precarious, because I don’t see the Rockets, Clippers or Spurs slipping, and I expect OKC to make a strong second-half push. Their best chance of cementing their hold on the 8th spot (or even moving up) is to cash in some of these assets they’re collecting for a player who can help them win now. They don’t want to toss away someone who’s going to be a star in the future, and apparently have told Archie Goodwin that they’re banking on him. But other than that (and especially with Goran Dragic about to be a free agent), is there anyone on the roster whom they don’t move in the right deal? http://www.basketballinsiders.com/chat/ ... n-1222015/

The Suns think Archie could be a star?

[Revived]

I think Archie could be a star.

[suns91fan]

Huh?

So your neighbour's kid scored 29 points in the NBA?
Averaged 9-10 points when given 15+ minutes on good percentages?

Goodwin has elite traits... We all scream and get excited when we see Westbrook take it hard to the rim, well Goodwin has that potential, his first step and penetration ability is bordering elite.

I really hope Goodwin succeeds but all those games you mentioned mean nothing. When teams played against the Suns last year, they did the scouting report. In those scouting reports Goodwin was not even mentioned. They just didn't expect him to play at all, and even if he was to get some minutes, they just didn't think he would do any impact worth scouting. And that's where Goodwin could shine. No one knew he can't shoot, no one knew he can attack the basket so well, so he took teams by surprise, and contributed accordingly. When Goodwin cracks the rotation, he will get scouted on a consistent basis, and all flaws in his game will be exposed. It's easy to completely shut down one dimensional players, so unless he develops some more options in his offense, he won't be getting any meaningful minutes.

Mean nothing?
He achieved, those numbers are on the record books forever.
They mean simply, that Goodwin scored so so points during those games.

And why are you replying to me and down playing his achievements? Did you even read the post I quoted, some guy's neighbor's kid is athletic so he is comparable to Goodwin?
Goodwin averaged 14 ppgs in college as a 17 year old... you argue my post, but ignored the previous post about some "athletic" kid comparable to a player who has proven performances as a professional and in college.

"He didnt get scouted" hence he scored is a lazy way to summarize it. Heck even Wiggins was "bad" the first 2 weeks of the season, teams figured his weaknesses, but with experience on the court, he took his weaknesses and works on them every day so he has been improving every game. How does a player who doesnt get much "feedback" on his game performance able to develop a counter measure to get better?

Hence, why I think Goodwin is much better off playing D-league all season long

And you are assuming Goodwin is DONE improving, even Lebron James "ONLY" averaged 20 points as a rookie, heck even Kobe Bryant averaged terrible-so so numbers in his first 2 years. My point? Player improve over time.

Yep, they improve by working extremely hard on their game in practice. You won't learn to shoot by getting minutes, just like you won't pass an exam without studying. As i said once, playing games is just a showcase to show what you can do. If by some reason, Goodwin is absolutely amazing in practice, but can't put it together in the game, then it might be an experience problem. And it might have been fixed by giving him consistent minutes. But that's not the case here obviously. He is far from a solid NBA player right now. So, practice, practice, practice... Because practice makes perfect!

[sunsfever68]

Archie could be a star if he improves his ball handling and jumper. He has elite athleticism, slashing and driving ability. He seems like a very similar to Bledsoe and Thomas in their strengths so I think ultimately you move thomas and some other depth pieces to bring in another asset in the front court to play D and grab boards.

[thamadkant]

I think Archie could be a star.

Same.

Thats why I dont understand why some Suns fans arent supportive of him.

Every game I see, the things he does... all I think is.. "man, if he had a shot, he would be a terror to guard".

The shot... will come, he doesnt have to be Kyle Korver from 3.... he doesnt need to be Curry or Thompson from anywhere...
He just need to be like Bledsoe or Dragic level... and both are VERY attainable with time.

I really do think McD is high on Goodwin, he has the McD draftee typical traits, long wingspan, athletic, fast, aggressive, high upside.

[Kerrsed]

[thamadkant]

I really hope Goodwin succeeds but all those games you mentioned mean nothing. When teams played against the Suns last year, they did the scouting report. In those scouting reports Goodwin was not even mentioned. They just didn't expect him to play at all, and even if he was to get some minutes, they just didn't think he would do any impact worth scouting. And that's where Goodwin could shine. No one knew he can't shoot, no one knew he can attack the basket so well, so he took teams by surprise, and contributed accordingly. When Goodwin cracks the rotation, he will get scouted on a consistent basis, and all flaws in his game will be exposed. It's easy to completely shut down one dimensional players, so unless he develops some more options in his offense, he won't be getting any meaningful minutes.

Mean nothing?
He achieved, those numbers are on the record books forever.
They mean simply, that Goodwin scored so so points during those games.

And why are you replying to me and down playing his achievements? Did you even read the post I quoted, some guy's neighbor's kid is athletic so he is comparable to Goodwin?
Goodwin averaged 14 ppgs in college as a 17 year old... you argue my post, but ignored the previous post about some "athletic" kid comparable to a player who has proven performances as a professional and in college.

"He didnt get scouted" hence he scored is a lazy way to summarize it. Heck even Wiggins was "bad" the first 2 weeks of the season, teams figured his weaknesses, but with experience on the court, he took his weaknesses and works on them every day so he has been improving every game. How does a player who doesnt get much "feedback" on his game performance able to develop a counter measure to get better?

Hence, why I think Goodwin is much better off playing D-league all season long

And you are assuming Goodwin is DONE improving, even Lebron James "ONLY" averaged 20 points as a rookie, heck even Kobe Bryant averaged terrible-so so numbers in his first 2 years. My point? Player improve over time.

Yep, they improve by working extremely hard on their game in practice. You won't learn to shoot by getting minutes, just like you won't pass an exam without studying. As i said once, playing games is just a showcase to show what you can do. If by some reason, Goodwin is absolutely amazing in practice, but can't put it together in the game, then it might be an experience problem. And it might have been fixed by giving him consistent minutes. But that's not the case here obviously. He is far from a solid NBA player right now. So, practice, practice, practice... Because practice makes perfect!

I disagree...
Practice + on court game exposure = faster development.

I'm not saying he has to play in an NBA game, I would prefer that, BUT... D-League, heck even Europe...
An environment where another player is trying their butts off to stop him, where Goodwin NEEDS to assess his options LIVE in-game... (drive, pass, draw the foul etc)... where his performance has a consequence that toughens up you mentally and it helps you build confidence, and confidence is GOLD when it comes to development.

Hence, McD should stash him in the D-league all season and then bring him back, hungrier, game-exposed next season....

[RaisingArizona]

Go watch a UNC game in the early 80's. I swear, MJ looks just like Archie does now.

[RaisingArizona]

Let’s talk about the suns. Do they need to make a trade at the deadline to get into the playoffs and if so, who would you trade? Thx.

Larry Coon
Yeah, I think their hold on the 8th spot is precarious, because I don’t see the Rockets, Clippers or Spurs slipping, and I expect OKC to make a strong second-half push. Their best chance of cementing their hold on the 8th spot (or even moving up) is to cash in some of these assets they’re collecting for a player who can help them win now. They don’t want to toss away someone who’s going to be a star in the future, and apparently have told Archie Goodwin that they’re banking on him. But other than that (and especially with Goran Dragic about to be a free agent), is there anyone on the roster whom they don’t move in the right deal? http://www.basketballinsiders.com/chat/ ... n-1222015/

The Suns think Archie could be a star?

We said the same things about Dragic and Len. You never know. We don't see them nearly as much as they do. Have some damn confidence in McD. Ye of little faith.

[Sundreamer]

You mean we should make a trade with the Bobcats?

[Zelaznyrules]

Huh?

So your neighbour's kid scored 29 points in the NBA?
Averaged 9-10 points when given 15+ minutes on good percentages?

Goodwin has elite traits... We all scream and get excited when we see Westbrook take it hard to the rim, well Goodwin has that potential, his first step and penetration ability is bordering elite.

I really hope Goodwin succeeds but all those games you mentioned mean nothing. When teams played against the Suns last year, they did the scouting report. In those scouting reports Goodwin was not even mentioned. They just didn't expect him to play at all, and even if he was to get some minutes, they just didn't think he would do any impact worth scouting. And that's where Goodwin could shine. No one knew he can't shoot, no one knew he can attack the basket so well, so he took teams by surprise, and contributed accordingly. When Goodwin cracks the rotation, he will get scouted on a consistent basis, and all flaws in his game will be exposed. It's easy to completely shut down one dimensional players, so unless he develops some more options in his offense, he won't be getting any meaningful minutes.

Mean nothing?
He achieved, those numbers are on the record books forever.
They mean simply, that Goodwin scored so so points during those games.

And why are you replying to me and down playing his achievements? Did you even read the post I quoted, some guy's neighbor's kid is athletic so he is comparable to Goodwin?
Goodwin averaged 14 ppgs in college as a 17 year old... you argue my post, but ignored the previous post about some "athletic" kid comparable to a player who has proven performances as a professional and in college.

"He didnt get scouted" hence he scored is a lazy way to summarize it. Heck even Wiggins was "bad" the first 2 weeks of the season, teams figured his weaknesses, but with experience on the court, he took his weaknesses and works on them every day so he has been improving every game. How does a player who doesnt get much "feedback" on his game performance able to develop a counter measure to get better?

Hence, why I think Goodwin is much better off playing D-league all season long

And you are assuming Goodwin is DONE improving, even Lebron James "ONLY" averaged 20 points as a rookie, heck even Kobe Bryant averaged terrible-so so numbers in his first 2 years. My point? Player improve over time.

My point is that we all know it's ludicrous to put my neighbor's grandkid on the court. But for some reason a lot of posters here are convinced Archie needs major minutes simply because he's young and athletic and needs to be able to show what he can do. My neighbor can make the same claim about his grandson.

We all have one thing in common here, we don't have a clue whether Archie is ready to play or not. The people that do, the people that see him every day - those are the ones that know what he needs to work on and those are the guys that keep putting Archie on the bench or sending him to the D League. I understand we all like to second guess but considering Jeff is armed with all the facts and we have pretty much none, it seems strange to see posters so confidently chastising the man for this decision. Again, I want to see Archie play more but it will happen when the coaches believe he's ready. I hope he's ready soon.

[suns91fan]

Mean nothing?
He achieved, those numbers are on the record books forever.
They mean simply, that Goodwin scored so so points during those games.

And why are you replying to me and down playing his achievements? Did you even read the post I quoted, some guy's neighbor's kid is athletic so he is comparable to Goodwin?
Goodwin averaged 14 ppgs in college as a 17 year old... you argue my post, but ignored the previous post about some "athletic" kid comparable to a player who has proven performances as a professional and in college.

"He didnt get scouted" hence he scored is a lazy way to summarize it. Heck even Wiggins was "bad" the first 2 weeks of the season, teams figured his weaknesses, but with experience on the court, he took his weaknesses and works on them every day so he has been improving every game. How does a player who doesnt get much "feedback" on his game performance able to develop a counter measure to get better?

Hence, why I think Goodwin is much better off playing D-league all season long

And you are assuming Goodwin is DONE improving, even Lebron James "ONLY" averaged 20 points as a rookie, heck even Kobe Bryant averaged terrible-so so numbers in his first 2 years. My point? Player improve over time.

Yep, they improve by working extremely hard on their game in practice. You won't learn to shoot by getting minutes, just like you won't pass an exam without studying. As i said once, playing games is just a showcase to show what you can do. If by some reason, Goodwin is absolutely amazing in practice, but can't put it together in the game, then it might be an experience problem. And it might have been fixed by giving him consistent minutes. But that's not the case here obviously. He is far from a solid NBA player right now. So, practice, practice, practice... Because practice makes perfect!

I disagree...
Practice + on court game exposure = faster development.

I'm not saying he has to play in an NBA game, I would prefer that, BUT... D-League, heck even Europe...
An environment where another player is trying their butts off to stop him, where Goodwin NEEDS to assess his options LIVE in-game... (drive, pass, draw the foul etc)... where his performance has a consequence that toughens up you mentally and it helps you build confidence, and confidence is GOLD when it comes to development.

Yes, it will help eventually. But he needs to have a starting point. A point when he can contribute right away and not be a liability. That's why it's important for him to get that shot together. The moment he learns to shoot consistently is the moment he will crack the rotation. In some other systems, where teams play differently and doesn't require every player on the court to be able to shoot, he would have got his chance a long time ago. But not here. In Suns system, you must be a good shooter or you're a liability. So as long as Hornacek is aiming to win, he won't be giving Goodwin any playing time. And that's fair in my opinion.

And concerning the "star" talk, that's just unrealistic. There were ton's of athletic, one dimensional players who were in the league and didn't pan out. Goodwin wouldn't be the first, nor the last player to suffer such fate. After all, he was a 29th pick. Tons of teams could have picked him as a project, and they didn't. Time will tell if they were wrong, or the Suns ended up outsmarting anyone. I certainly hope he succeeds, but i also wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't.

[AtheJ415]

I'm still just hoping the Suns decide to stand pat this year. We have too many young guys and question marks to make any big roster changes.

I was thinking about this recently and I don't think we can for a couple reasons.

With the addition of Bullock, we have 15 guys on the roster that our GM likes, and that all are young enough to be a part of the team going forward. We also have 1 or 2 first rounders this year we need to make room for, as well as another first in 2017 and Bogdan coming over as well.

We also have too many guys at the 1-3 slots (even assuming Green leaves) and, if no moves are made and assuming Wright is re-signed, 3 quality centers, which pigeonholes our draft selections as having to be a 4, which is a situation McDonough probably isn't a fan of.

With those additional picks coming over as well, our best interests are served by moving a package for an upgrade somewhere. We can't have a 20 man team.

I could see us making a run at a star if one becomes available, but that may not happen. Love is the closest to being available but if Cleveland turns it around he's staying.

To me, Phoenix holds out hoping one of Love, Cousins, or maybe a not yet, but young potential star like Tobias Harris.

Or, Phoenix trades in a guy like Green and Plumlee for a younger player under contract who can replace them, like a Ross or Jones, to push this situation to next year when the situation for stars has hopefully changed.

All I know is I don't want us selling low on Plumlee or Goodwin, and I don't want us keeping Green and letting him walk for nothing in UFA.

[Frank Lee]

I think Archie could be a star.

Same.

Thats why I dont understand why some Suns fans arent supportive of him.

Every game I see, the things he does... all I think is.. "man, if he had a shot, he would be a terror to guard".

The shot... will come, he doesnt have to be Kyle Korver from 3.... he doesnt need to be Curry or Thompson from anywhere...
He just need to be like Bledsoe or Dragic level... and both are VERY attainable with time.

I really do think McD is high on Goodwin, he has the McD draftee typical traits, long wingspan, athletic, fast, aggressive, high upside.

Do we have to crawl up his ass to be supportive ???? If so, we might have to pry your lips off the entrance.

Jeebus... how about we keep 'All Things Goodwin' in the Goodwin thread, unless you have a trade for him. I swear, I'm about hoping the kid gets traded just to end this tit4tat discussion. Act like you have seen a draft pick that is a project before. You GoodWhiners have mootly made your point... he'll play when he plays and not another GD about his vaunted 'potential' PLEASE

[ImNotMcDiSwear]

I'm still just hoping the Suns decide to stand pat this year. We have too many young guys and question marks to make any big roster changes.

I was thinking about this recently and I don't think we can for a couple reasons.

With the addition of Bullock, we have 15 guys on the roster that our GM likes, and that all are young enough to be a part of the team going forward. We also have 1 or 2 first rounders this year we need to make room for, as well as another first in 2017 and Bogdan coming over as well.

We also have too many guys at the 1-3 slots (even assuming Green leaves) and, if no moves are made and assuming Wright is re-signed, 3 quality centers, which pigeonholes our draft selections as having to be a 4, which is a situation McDonough probably isn't a fan of.

With those additional picks coming over as well, our best interests are served by moving a package for an upgrade somewhere. We can't have a 20 man team.

I could see us making a run at a star if one becomes available, but that may not happen. Love is the closest to being available but if Cleveland turns it around he's staying.

To me, Phoenix holds out hoping one of Love, Cousins, or maybe a not yet, but young potential star like Tobias Harris.

Or, Phoenix trades in a guy like Green and Plumlee for a younger player under contract who can replace them, like a Ross or Jones, to push this situation to next year when the situation for stars has hopefully changed.

All I know is I don't want us selling low on Plumlee or Goodwin, and I don't want us keeping Green and letting him walk for nothing in UFA.

Next year's draft is fairly PF-heavy, which might allow us to take someone on, but I think there's a good shot we punt on next year's draft due to the sheer number of young players on our roster - rolling the pick forward to a future year.

This offseason could see a seismic shift with this group. Our cup runneth over. But the stars aren't available. Can McD keep this group together long enough to be able to make his deals? Really hard to figure out what's going to happen.

[AtheJ415]

I'm still just hoping the Suns decide to stand pat this year. We have too many young guys and question marks to make any big roster changes.

I was thinking about this recently and I don't think we can for a couple reasons.

With the addition of Bullock, we have 15 guys on the roster that our GM likes, and that all are young enough to be a part of the team going forward. We also have 1 or 2 first rounders this year we need to make room for, as well as another first in 2017 and Bogdan coming over as well.

We also have too many guys at the 1-3 slots (even assuming Green leaves) and, if no moves are made and assuming Wright is re-signed, 3 quality centers, which pigeonholes our draft selections as having to be a 4, which is a situation McDonough probably isn't a fan of.

With those additional picks coming over as well, our best interests are served by moving a package for an upgrade somewhere. We can't have a 20 man team.

I could see us making a run at a star if one becomes available, but that may not happen. Love is the closest to being available but if Cleveland turns it around he's staying.

To me, Phoenix holds out hoping one of Love, Cousins, or maybe a not yet, but young potential star like Tobias Harris.

Or, Phoenix trades in a guy like Green and Plumlee for a younger player under contract who can replace them, like a Ross or Jones, to push this situation to next year when the situation for stars has hopefully changed.

All I know is I don't want us selling low on Plumlee or Goodwin, and I don't want us keeping Green and letting him walk for nothing in UFA.

Next year's draft is fairly PF-heavy, which might allow us to take someone on, but I think there's a good shot we punt on next year's draft due to the sheer number of young players on our roster - rolling the pick forward to a future year.

This offseason could see a seismic shift with this group. Our cup runneth over. But the stars aren't available. Can McD keep this group together long enough to be able to make his deals? Really hard to figure out what's going to happen.

It's certainly PF heavy, and there are some SF's I like as well. I meant McDonough might not like it in terms of forcing his hand not to take the best player available. He seems like a bpa guy to me judging by the Ennis selection last year and Bogdan as well, who's more of a 2-3 wing.

I'm mostly interested to see what we do with Green. I just see Green as an asset that other teams need, and I just can't see him not getting more money than he's worth from some team, and even if he signed for what he's worth with the Suns, I want that transition for Archie and Warren to occur before 3 years from now. We need to get something for him. Plumlee is still under contract for a few years, so while he'd like to be moved I'm fine keeping him. He's pretty ideal as a backup big in this system.

I also wonder if we would be okay overpaying (in terms of trade assets) for Mirotic or Gibson. Chicago isn't looking to move either, but if you give them a deal they can't refuse they'll take it. If McDonough really has faith in the youngsters, it may still be a positive because there isn't a lot of sense in going 4 deep at each position. If we keep our picks and don't move anyone, that 4 deep look is what we're heading to.

[Frank Lee]

There are not many quality expendable big guys out there. And we likely are limited to shop from non playoff bound teams.
I guess we had better be content with another minor acquisition, if anything at all is done, and I sure as heck would not trade the Plummer w/o having a quality big to replace him.

[nevetsov]

As many have said, this stretch will be sink or swim.

If we go belly up and drop out of the playoff picture, we'll likely see some player movement. We'll commit to the core of youth and flip redundant vets for whatever we can get. That gives us half a season of evaluation with no pressure to win games.

If we go on a bit of a streak and solidify our place in the playoff race, youth be damned (for the second straight year) we are going to chase that carrot and worry about the blowback in the offseason.

I'd love to see some PHX playoff basketball as I'll be heading to the US in April/May... But I'm not 100% sold that, long term, this is the best scenario for us.

[MrMiyagi]

It'll be interesting to see if we make a move now that we've got a good sample size from our roster. I think it has always been more dependent on whether another team wants to unload someone. Don't know who that team or player(s) could be, but I didn't think that Brandon Wright would become available, especially considering Dallas likes their athletic rim protectors.

I kind of get the feeling Charlotte would make a good partner for a 3 team trade. They need shooters and we seem to have some available. I don't think they'd mind taking Green, Marcus or maybe even IT, especially if their looking at grabbing that 7th or 8th spot in the east. I don't think that they really have someone who could help us right now AND later (I know people have mentioned Big Al, but if they're still pushing for the playoffs, he isn't available and I don't think MKG or Stevenson are right for us), but maybe they could facilitate a trade to help us find a good piece.

I still think we're alright if we keep our roster as is, but I know y'all like rosterbating. Have at it.

[Kerrsed]

Just about 3 weeks until the trade deadline.......