2024-25 Season Discussion and Speculation

[bwgood77]

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I actually see this differently.
I think the Suns are throwing up the white flag that they won't be able to move Beal. And they wanted to 'showcase' him for as long as possible. Now that we know we aren't moving him, it's time to reconfigure.
Maybe this gives the team a jolt of energy or maybe they continue to not play like they recognize that they're playing a child's game for a living and making millions doing it.

It's a good decision. Always keep 2 of the big guys on the court. You never really need 3, and Nurkic is terrible. Dunn will help a lot with the lineup defensively especially when you have Tyus and Book in the starting lineup. Beal has played well defensively, but Book can't really guard 3s.

[Saberestar]

Why wouldn’t the Pistons get the 1st when they’re taking on Beal?

IMO Butler can get you one unprotected FRP yet from some team.

But it's just my opinion, probably the Pistons would get that FRP in that deal.

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I don't see why Detroit does that. Harris has been good for them and they are finally competitive. Beal is a very good player but their best two young players are guards in Cade and Ivey.

Ivey is probably out for the season.

[dremill24]

Question for you being the cap expert. If we did decide to trade Book or KD, for picks and prospects, how would the 2nd apron rules come into effect? It seems like we could definitely take back less, but I don't know if other teams can take back more. I guess they may have different rules, like the 125% rule or something? I imagine not a ton of teams have space to absorb extra salary, particularly the competitive ones that might trade for them.

I know this is all moot because Ishbia thinks we are contenders and that 28 teams would trade their rosters for ours, but just for **** and giggles, I'd like to know.

Its tough. It depends on who you're trading with. Yes, you can always take back less money than you send out. But its hard for teams to take back more to make that happen. 1st apron teams cant take back additional salary either (which I find excessive), so getting creative with another non-apron team and/or leveraging trade exceptions to get around it is helpful.

Teams like OKC, Orlando, Houston, Memphis, Cleveland, Dallas are some of the best teams that are below any apron. But even so, if you add salary in a trade, you're hard capped at that 1st apron and most of these teams arent THAT far below so theres a limit on how much extra they can take.

Teams already above one of the aprons are DEN, LAL, MIA, NY, PHI, BOS, MIN, MIL, PHX.

Teams below the aprons have a wider net on how much extra salary they can take on (changes depending on how much they're sending out) based on that rule but the hard cap limits it practically.

The simplest way to make math work in a lot of cases is to add another team who is well below the tax, but that obviously brings in complications of making it worthwhile for that team to participate.

The short answer unfortunately is it depends on who you're dealing with. Is there something more specific you are looking for?

No, that's what I was looking for. It just seems like to come up with potential deals, you'd have to really know a lot about where each team was in relation to the cap, which I imagine most people don't do when coming up with their proposed deals. So I don't know what really works and what doesn't.

Yeah its complicated. I put in way more time trying to make sure they're right than most and I still screw up all the time.

The CBA is a beast. Many teams employ salary cap experts just to navigate that part as a FT job. They'll bring in outside consultants to do classes on like CBA 101 for teams as well...its no joke. And theres a whole lot more to it than just trade rules.

[sunsbg]

It's a good decision. Always keep 2 of the big guys on the court. You never really need 3, and Nurkic is terrible. Dunn will help a lot with the lineup defensively especially when you have Tyus and Book in the starting lineup. Beal has played well defensively, but Book can't really guard 3s.

You were against Beal coming off the bench for quite some time. Fingers crossed it actually works. It needs some dedication from these big ego players.

[bwgood77]

It's a good decision. Always keep 2 of the big guys on the court. You never really need 3, and Nurkic is terrible. Dunn will help a lot with the lineup defensively especially when you have Tyus and Book in the starting lineup. Beal has played well defensively, but Book can't really guard 3s.

You were against Beal coming off the bench for quite some time. Fingers crossed it actually works. It needs some dedication from these big ego players.

I always said I wasn't against it but that I didn't think it really mattered and that it makes some sense to start him to give him more rest time and that they will/should stagger anyway. i just mainly didn't think they would.

This also happens at the same time our schedule gets signficantly easier so if we do start winning it may not necessarily mean this lineup fixes all our problems. It will be disguised as such though probably until our schedule gets tough again.

[They_Them_Hatin]

Only realistic option I see for Beal is Charlotte. They need a SG, aren’t a free agent destination, have Williams & Green tied up for $29 million in 2026-2027, I don’t think Miller’s extension kicks in until 2027-2028 so the extra money shouldn’t be an issue to them for one year where you don’t have to offer up the 31 1st.

[They_Them_Hatin]

This trade is correct and money works. Teams would receive:

Heat: Tobias Harris + Tim Hardaway Jr + 2031 unprotected FRP

Suns: Jimmy Butler

Pistons: Bradley Beal + 3 2nds

Why wouldn’t the Pistons get the 1st when they’re taking on Beal?

IMO Butler can get you one unprotected FRP yet from some team.

But it's just my opinion, probably the Pistons would get that FRP in that deal.

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Pistons will want the 1st and Heat aren’t trading Jimmy for Tobias + 2nds. Unless Bam asks for Beal, Jimmy ain’t coming to the Suns.

[sunsbg]

It's a good decision. Always keep 2 of the big guys on the court. You never really need 3, and Nurkic is terrible. Dunn will help a lot with the lineup defensively especially when you have Tyus and Book in the starting lineup. Beal has played well defensively, but Book can't really guard 3s.

You were against Beal coming off the bench for quite some time. Fingers crossed it actually works. It needs some dedication from these big ego players.

I always said I wasn't against it but that I didn't think it really mattered and that it makes some sense to start him to give him more rest time and that they will/should stagger anyway. i just mainly didn't think they would.

This also happens at the same time our schedule gets signficantly easier so if we do start winning it may not necessarily mean this lineup fixes all our problems. It will be disguised as such though probably until our schedule gets tough again.

This lineup certainly doesn't fix all problems, but Big 3 lineup not working has enough evidence. I read different forums and a lot of fans are happy with this move and called for it a long time ago. Or maybe it's just trying to force Beal to wave off the NTC with those Butler rumors, who knows.

[Ghost of Kleine]

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[Ghost of Kleine]

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[SunsRback4Good]

Why wouldn’t the Pistons get the 1st when they’re taking on Beal?

IMO Butler can get you one unprotected FRP yet from some team.

But it's just my opinion, probably the Pistons would get that FRP in that deal.

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Pistons will want the 1st and Heat aren’t trading Jimmy for Tobias + 2nds. Unless Bam asks for Beal, Jimmy ain’t coming to the Suns.

Beal is a heck of a player, the Heat would be missing out on not trading for him. When he’s healthy the league is on notice. Give him a chance and you’ll see his wrath.

Spoiler:

Ok, I can’t keep this up any longer..Beal sucks so bad.

[Saberestar]

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This guy is a bum

Kevin O'Connor or Haynes?

[Ghost of Kleine]

It's funny so many people mention the NTC as a big deal, as if without it he would suddenly have great trade value. I mean, yeah, it sucks if he shut down a deal. Personally I don't even think he'd shut down a deal with Miami if they wanted him and the Suns didn't. Why would you? But they don't want him.

I think the same goes for other older teams, like the LA teams, etc. But people are unlikely to want him.

It actually is a big deal in that we become severely limited as to the potential teams we could trade him to (even already not having greater even good trade value because Beal would have to actually approve a deal. So IF for example there was a team that was really struggling to be competitive and attract any big names but was willing to take Beal because of those conditions, They might be willing to take Beal in a trade, BUT Beal if h doesn't want to go there, we couldn't even do the deal.

So there could be some legitimate options for us to move him in a trade, but we can't even do those deals BECAUSE he again could just kill the trade regardless of a team's potential interest. This is currently why teams have stated they aren't willing to even trade for Beal. Because they'd be stuck with him just like we are now. all because apart from his trade value, the receiving team couldn't trade him or move off of him without him agreeing. In that context, and given his albatross salary in this 2nd apron restricted climate, that provision is only exacerbated making his contract the worst in the NBA. I'm not completely opposed to riding out his deal IF we were willing to trade BOTH Booker and KD towards a rebuild before their values only depreciate even further. But Beals' "NO TRADE CLAUSE" is legitimately a very big deal because he'll be able to dictate whether he's traded or not regardless of mutual interest.

In theory, if a lot of teams were interested in trading for him, it would be a big deal, but the fact remains, it's his contract, games played, etc, that is more of a hndrance. I can't see rebuilding teams wanting him or contenders, unless thy sent back a large bad contract.

For it to be a big deal, you'd first have to think of what teams would want him and what they would give up for him if he didn't have a NTC. Is there such a list?

No, I do hear you and get what you're saying about those other bigger more prominent factors man. And I do actually agree with you here. But what I'm saying is that the "no trade clause" is a big deal too because even if we found a team that was willing to accept those conditions ( huge salary commitment, extensive durability issues, etc) in a trade.


It could be a small market team that just can't attract any notable players, or a really bad perennial cellar dweller lottery team that no one wants to go to, even if those teams were amenable or willing to take him and his salary back despite his injury history, because of his no trade clause, Beal could obviously kill any trades to lesser or undesirable teams even if we had a deal in principle in place for him.

The no trade clause becomes a very big deal because Beal ultimately controls the outcome of ANY/ ALL potential trades that might actually allow us to move him to those less than desirable situations if we chose to just to get off that same salary and injury/ durability concerns that you pointed out that ARE ( I'm in agreement here) the initial big deal factors for any team to consider. That's why I said that his no trade clause exacerbates those factors.

Because again, there's always some team that's willing to take a player with a bad contract or durability concerns ( maybe both) as long as you add incentives. But with Beal's no trade clause, even those outlier possibilities are eliminated if he doesn't agree to the trade destination/ situation.

[TeamTragic]

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Dude has been injured the entire season and has been playing awful basketball.

We are the ones who should be disgruntled. Enjoy the bench.

[Ghost of Kleine]

Why wouldn’t the Pistons get the 1st when they’re taking on Beal?

IMO Butler can get you one unprotected FRP yet from some team.

But it's just my opinion, probably the Pistons would get that FRP in that deal.

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I don't see why Detroit does that. Harris has been good for them and they are finally competitive. Beal is a very good player but their best two young players are guards in Cade and Ivey.

I don't see them legitimately doing this either, but if they did abandon reason for madness, then they'd likely do it only to replace Ivey who'll be out for the entire remainder of the season. And they're desperate to remain competitive. Ie; willing to take a big risk to achieve that.

But again, I don't see them wanting Beal because of his huge salary commitment over the next couple of years. Especially his PO in 26' - 27.' Interesting trade though. I also wouldn't surrender our 31' 1st under any conditions without protections ( at least top 4-5 or so).

[bwgood77]

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These 3 man lineups are pretty dumb when you really look at them all. The one he lists of 8.9 is in 82 minutes

For example,

Morris, Okogie and Oso have a +30 in 77 minutes

Morris, Allen and Oso have a +28.5 in 77 minutes

Jones, Beal and Dunn have a +9.3 net rating in 105 minutes.

KD, Royce & Allen have a +12.8 in 93 minutes

Jones, Royce & Allen have a +11 in 129 minutes

Plumlee, Jones & Dunn have a +9.4 in 120 minutes

But clearly, if you look at all the data, our worst lineups are ones that consist of Beal and Jones playing together. For some reason, every iteration, no matter the 3rd player, is bad. So yes, a lineup with both of them is too small (except that one with Dunn).

Another thing that is pretty crazy and awesome is that almost every iteration of any lineup with Dunn in it is positive. He must be like one of those Shane Battier guys.

[dremill24]

I'd be interested in how much overlap there is between people who were clamoring for Beal to "check his ego" to come off the bench before and those who are now talking about how it's such an insult he's sure to waive his NTC now. Is it a team-first sacrifice or a slap in the face? It wouldn't be such a hard thing to do if everyone wasn't always talking out of both sides of their mouth on the subject.

I've had Twitter for like 6 months and only REALLY been on it for like one...it's already disheartening. The things people say about and directly to these guys are wild.

[bwgood77]

I'd be interested in how much overlap there is between people who were clamoring for Beal to "check his ego" to come off the bench before and those who are now talking about how it's such an insult he's sure to waive his NTC now. Is it a team-first sacrifice or a slap in the face? It wouldn't be such a hard thing to do if everyone wasn't always talking out of both sides of their mouth on the subject.

I've had Twitter for like 6 months and only REALLY been on it for like one...it's already disheartening. The things people say about and directly to these guys are wild.

Beal never really struck me as a guy that would be totally adamant about not coming off the bench, or to even be livid now that he's coming off the bench. But some did make the assumption before that he was unwilling, etc, as if he had even been asked to...and he probably hadn't even been asked to.

[Ghost of Kleine]

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[TeamTragic]

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Flex did say Kings/Pelicans are looking to make moves and Vuc is killing it out there.