Trade Discussion

[DirtyDez]

For this team to be successful in the near future we need to get the most out of Eric Bledsoe. Not sure which coach would be able to do that best. Maybe MDA? Maybe Earl Watson?? We need #2 to reach his ceiling... It's that simple.

[AtheJ415]

Brandon Knight for Goran Dragic ... would you do that trade?

No. Dragic is too expensive and too old. And I have doubt he will ever repeat that one great season he had.

I don't know what his #s were that season, but his last 5 games he is at 18.4, 6.8, 5.2 on 50.7% shooting and 35.7% from 3. Not bad. He is still younger than Nash was in 04-05 and Nash was good for another 5-7 years after that.

I'm not saying I'd want him necessarily for this team that is at least 4-5 years away anyway, but he's a better player right now than Knight. He didn't start out well this season, but he's playing better lately, and plays smart than Knight. Doubles him in WS/48, which is the primary stat to look at per AtheJ415.

You can't use WS/48 here. I use it when comparing players from the same team (like Tucker and Warren) or relatively equal teams because they have equal wins to share. Since the stat literally shares your team's wins, even on a /48 basis it's going to favor players on teams with the most wins, so It's entirely inappropriate to use it to compare us, a team who is tanking with few wins, to anyone on Miami, a team in the playoffs with many wins. If you use any WS based stat it needs to be with comparable teams, or you'll find roleplayers on contenders with better numbers than stars on awful teams. And in fact, since Miami has over double the wins we do, I'd argue Goran's WS/48 is worse, but I'm not sure the stat's math would bare out relative comparisons like that (that if you have double the wins you'd necessarily double your WS/48).

There is no 1 advanced stat that is okay to use in all situations. You have to look at the scenario and the weaknesses/biases of the stat to figure out the best one. Here, efficiency stats are probably the best on both sides of the ball.

Goran is below average PER (not my favorite number but it provides a quick reference point), shooting more or as poorly (32% 3, and 69% FT!!!), and getting the same number of assists. The only plus for Goran I can see is fewer turnovers as far as running the team goes. What you should expect to see given Goran's role playing off of 2 HOF'ers and another great talent in Whiteside, is low shots but high assists and efficient scoring. He's not done that, as a very experienced 29 year old.

As for Knight, he's on a team with no offensive talent alongside him for much of the year, in part due to Hornacek's mind-boggling rotations. He doesn't have the same attention taken away as Goran does with Wade, Bosh, Whiteside. With Bledsoe, Knight performed pretty damn well at times. His efficiency is still slightly better than Goran on the year despite that (slightly above average actually), and so overall I'm not sure how this is even a question aside from people really liking Goran and really not liking Knight. What I expect from Knight given his role here is a lot of shots and ideally moderate efficiency with fewer assists, but hopefully more leadership and flashes of upside. I'm not sure we saw the improvement we had wanted, but it's still really early in his career.

Both Goran and Knight have been bad. As far as each one's value though, 1 is 24 and on a cheaper deal than the 29 year old. It seems pretty obvious to me.

[bwgood77]

Nonsense. "Into his thirties" as in 30. Or do you expect us to take 6-8 years to be relevant ?

I guess it depends on the definition of relevant. At this point I'm not going to count on Bledsoe being healthy so his age is a non issue. If he is completely healthy from here on out, I don't care about his age.

I don't think we are in a better position than any team in the west, and perhaps only one team in the east, so relevancy is likely a long ways off. Hopefully we nail our draft picks and get a great developmental smart coach like Brad Stevens. It's too bad we don't still have that Lakers pick in our pocket and maybe Knight will change his ways, but I can't say I think the chances are good that it happens.

[bwgood77]

Spoiler:

No. Dragic is too expensive and too old. And I have doubt he will ever repeat that one great season he had.

I don't know what his #s were that season, but his last 5 games he is at 18.4, 6.8, 5.2 on 50.7% shooting and 35.7% from 3. Not bad. He is still younger than Nash was in 04-05 and Nash was good for another 5-7 years after that.

I'm not saying I'd want him necessarily for this team that is at least 4-5 years away anyway, but he's a better player right now than Knight. He didn't start out well this season, but he's playing better lately, and plays smart than Knight. Doubles him in WS/48, which is the primary stat to look at per AtheJ415.

You can't use WS/48 here. I use it when comparing players from the same team (like Tucker and Warren) or relatively equal teams because they have equal wins to share. Since the stat literally shares your team's wins, even on a /48 basis it's going to favor players on teams with the most wins, so It's entirely inappropriate to use it to compare us, a team who is tanking with few wins, to anyone on Miami, a team in the playoffs with many wins. If you use any WS based stat it needs to be with comparable teams, or you'll find roleplayers on contenders with better numbers than stars on awful teams. And in fact, since Miami has over double the wins we do, I'd argue Goran's WS/48 is worse, but I'm not sure the stat's math would bare out relative comparisons like that (that if you have double the wins you'd necessarily double your WS/48).

There is no 1 advanced stat that is okay to use in all situations. You have to look at the scenario and the weaknesses/biases of the stat to figure out the best one. Here, efficiency stats are probably the best on both sides of the ball.

Goran is below average PER (not my favorite number but it provides a quick reference point), shooting more or as poorly (32% 3, and 69% FT!!!), and getting the same number of assists. The only plus for Goran I can see is fewer turnovers as far as running the team goes. What you should expect to see given Goran's role playing off of 2 HOF'ers and another great talent in Whiteside, is low shots but high assists and efficient scoring. He's not done that, as a very experienced 29 year old.

As for Knight, he's on a team with no offensive talent alongside him for much of the year, in part due to Hornacek's mind-boggling rotations. He doesn't have the same attention taken away as Goran does with Wade, Bosh, Whiteside. With Bledsoe, Knight performed pretty damn well at times. His efficiency is still slightly better than Goran on the year despite that (slightly above average actually), and so overall I'm not sure how this is even a question aside from people really liking Goran and really not liking Knight. What I expect from Knight given his role here is a lot of shots and ideally moderate efficiency with fewer assists, but hopefully more leadership and flashes of upside. I'm not sure we saw the improvement we had wanted, but it's still really early in his career.

Both Goran and Knight have been bad. As far as each one's value though, 1 is 24 and on a cheaper deal than the 29 year old. It seems pretty obvious to me.

As I've mentioned before, I'd rather have neither. They are both over paid. Yes, Dragic is older, but imo he is a much smarter player. I really would like our team to get more players with higher bb iqs.

[Damkac]

Nonsense. "Into his thirties" as in 30. Or do you expect us to take 6-8 years to be relevant ?

I agree. The only reason Bledsoe might be too old is if he he has 35 year old knees right now, which might be the case. There is no reason why Bledsoe should not have 10 more years other than the knee thing.


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His style of play is another reason. He is relying on his athleticism too much.

[AtheJ415]

For this team to be successful in the near future we need to get the most out of Eric Bledsoe. Not sure which coach would be able to do that best. Maybe MDA? Maybe Earl Watson?? We need #2 to reach his ceiling... It's that simple.

I don't think Watson is the guy at all. He's much better at handling the psychology of players than Jeff was, and seems to handle it in a more realistic way than Jeff, who basically just treated everyone the same and expected them to be professionals in all circumstances. However, he hasn't really accomplished anything as a head coach at any level. Even now we're playing hard but stupid basketball. I'd go a different route, and try to keep Earl as an assistant if he was open for that.

[AtheJ415]

Spoiler:

I don't know what his #s were that season, but his last 5 games he is at 18.4, 6.8, 5.2 on 50.7% shooting and 35.7% from 3. Not bad. He is still younger than Nash was in 04-05 and Nash was good for another 5-7 years after that.

I'm not saying I'd want him necessarily for this team that is at least 4-5 years away anyway, but he's a better player right now than Knight. He didn't start out well this season, but he's playing better lately, and plays smart than Knight. Doubles him in WS/48, which is the primary stat to look at per AtheJ415.

You can't use WS/48 here. I use it when comparing players from the same team (like Tucker and Warren) or relatively equal teams because they have equal wins to share. Since the stat literally shares your team's wins, even on a /48 basis it's going to favor players on teams with the most wins, so It's entirely inappropriate to use it to compare us, a team who is tanking with few wins, to anyone on Miami, a team in the playoffs with many wins. If you use any WS based stat it needs to be with comparable teams, or you'll find roleplayers on contenders with better numbers than stars on awful teams. And in fact, since Miami has over double the wins we do, I'd argue Goran's WS/48 is worse, but I'm not sure the stat's math would bare out relative comparisons like that (that if you have double the wins you'd necessarily double your WS/48).

There is no 1 advanced stat that is okay to use in all situations. You have to look at the scenario and the weaknesses/biases of the stat to figure out the best one. Here, efficiency stats are probably the best on both sides of the ball.

Goran is below average PER (not my favorite number but it provides a quick reference point), shooting more or as poorly (32% 3, and 69% FT!!!), and getting the same number of assists. The only plus for Goran I can see is fewer turnovers as far as running the team goes. What you should expect to see given Goran's role playing off of 2 HOF'ers and another great talent in Whiteside, is low shots but high assists and efficient scoring. He's not done that, as a very experienced 29 year old.

As for Knight, he's on a team with no offensive talent alongside him for much of the year, in part due to Hornacek's mind-boggling rotations. He doesn't have the same attention taken away as Goran does with Wade, Bosh, Whiteside. With Bledsoe, Knight performed pretty damn well at times. His efficiency is still slightly better than Goran on the year despite that (slightly above average actually), and so overall I'm not sure how this is even a question aside from people really liking Goran and really not liking Knight. What I expect from Knight given his role here is a lot of shots and ideally moderate efficiency with fewer assists, but hopefully more leadership and flashes of upside. I'm not sure we saw the improvement we had wanted, but it's still really early in his career.

Both Goran and Knight have been bad. As far as each one's value though, 1 is 24 and on a cheaper deal than the 29 year old. It seems pretty obvious to me.

As I've mentioned before, I'd rather have neither. They are both over paid. Yes, Dragic is older, but imo he is a much smarter player. I really would like our team to get more players with higher bb iqs.

Dragic's assist and TO% is as bad as Knight's at the same age. Goran's assist % is just 0.8% higher and his turnover % is 3.5% higher. Intelligence as far as hoops IQ is not something you're born with except in very extreme cases (the incredibly stupid and incredibly smart). Dragic improved his Assist % and decreased his TO% as he got older until this year. There's no reason to believe Knight won't.

[blacksun]

For this team to be successful in the near future we need to get the most out of Eric Bledsoe. Not sure which coach would be able to do that best. Maybe MDA? Maybe Earl Watson?? We need #2 to reach his ceiling... It's that simple.

I don't think Watson is the guy at all. He's much better at handling the psychology of players than Jeff was, and seems to handle it in a more realistic way than Jeff, who basically just treated everyone the same and expected them to be professionals in all circumstances. However, he hasn't really accomplished anything as a head coach at any level. Even now we're playing hard but stupid basketball. I'd go a different route, and try to keep Earl as an assistant if he was open for that.

I see him as a Mark Jackson type coach. I say keep him if were going young.

[AtheJ415]

I have a feeling we trade Bledsoe on draft night to get pick 4 or 5 for Dunn if he's there.

[TeamTragic]

I have a feeling we trade Bledsoe on draft night to get pick 4 or 5 for Dunn if he's there.

I would not be opposed to that deal. Wolves? Nets? Lakers?

[bwgood77]

Spoiler:

You can't use WS/48 here. I use it when comparing players from the same team (like Tucker and Warren) or relatively equal teams because they have equal wins to share. Since the stat literally shares your team's wins, even on a /48 basis it's going to favor players on teams with the most wins, so It's entirely inappropriate to use it to compare us, a team who is tanking with few wins, to anyone on Miami, a team in the playoffs with many wins. If you use any WS based stat it needs to be with comparable teams, or you'll find roleplayers on contenders with better numbers than stars on awful teams. And in fact, since Miami has over double the wins we do, I'd argue Goran's WS/48 is worse, but I'm not sure the stat's math would bare out relative comparisons like that (that if you have double the wins you'd necessarily double your WS/48).

There is no 1 advanced stat that is okay to use in all situations. You have to look at the scenario and the weaknesses/biases of the stat to figure out the best one. Here, efficiency stats are probably the best on both sides of the ball.

Goran is below average PER (not my favorite number but it provides a quick reference point), shooting more or as poorly (32% 3, and 69% FT!!!), and getting the same number of assists. The only plus for Goran I can see is fewer turnovers as far as running the team goes. What you should expect to see given Goran's role playing off of 2 HOF'ers and another great talent in Whiteside, is low shots but high assists and efficient scoring. He's not done that, as a very experienced 29 year old.

As for Knight, he's on a team with no offensive talent alongside him for much of the year, in part due to Hornacek's mind-boggling rotations. He doesn't have the same attention taken away as Goran does with Wade, Bosh, Whiteside. With Bledsoe, Knight performed pretty damn well at times. His efficiency is still slightly better than Goran on the year despite that (slightly above average actually), and so overall I'm not sure how this is even a question aside from people really liking Goran and really not liking Knight. What I expect from Knight given his role here is a lot of shots and ideally moderate efficiency with fewer assists, but hopefully more leadership and flashes of upside. I'm not sure we saw the improvement we had wanted, but it's still really early in his career.

Both Goran and Knight have been bad. As far as each one's value though, 1 is 24 and on a cheaper deal than the 29 year old. It seems pretty obvious to me.

As I've mentioned before, I'd rather have neither. They are both over paid. Yes, Dragic is older, but imo he is a much smarter player. I really would like our team to get more players with higher bb iqs.

Dragic's assist and TO% is as bad as Knight's at the same age. Goran's assist % is just 0.8% higher and his turnover % is 3.5% higher. Intelligence as far as hoops IQ is not something you're born with except in very extreme cases (the incredibly stupid and incredibly smart). Dragic improved his Assist % and decreased his TO% as he got older until this year. There's no reason to believe Knight won't.

In Dragic's 5th NBA season he avg'd 7.4 apg, and 2.8 turnovers pg. For Knight's 5th season it is 5.1 to 3.5.

I certainly hope Knight gets better, for all our sanity.

[bwgood77]

I have a feeling we trade Bledsoe on draft night to get pick 4 or 5 for Dunn if he's there.

I would not be opposed to that deal. Wolves? Nets? Lakers?

The only team that would possibly be stupid enough to trade for him coming off of that injury is the Kings, because Rondo is leaving and Cousins might advocate for it. Nobody else would likely consider trading a high pick for a pg coming off injury. No one else even needs a PG except for Philly, but they'd almost certainly go for Dunn over Bledsoe.

[TeamTragic]

I have a feeling we trade Bledsoe on draft night to get pick 4 or 5 for Dunn if he's there.

I would not be opposed to that deal. Wolves? Nets? Lakers?

The only team that would possibly be stupid enough to trade for him coming off of that injury is the Kings, because Rondo is leaving and Cousins might advocate for it. Nobody else would likely consider trading a high pick for a pg coming off injury. No one else even needs a PG except for Philly, but they'd almost certainly go for Dunn over Bledsoe.

They did want Dragic. Bledsoe seems feasible. I honestly think Philly is obsessed with centers and would trade Dunn. No doubt that the armchair GMs will be ready to blast McD for that trade on draft day

[AtheJ415]

Spoiler:

As I've mentioned before, I'd rather have neither. They are both over paid. Yes, Dragic is older, but imo he is a much smarter player. I really would like our team to get more players with higher bb iqs.

Dragic's assist and TO% is as bad as Knight's at the same age. Goran's assist % is just 0.8% higher and his turnover % is 3.5% higher. Intelligence as far as hoops IQ is not something you're born with except in very extreme cases (the incredibly stupid and incredibly smart). Dragic improved his Assist % and decreased his TO% as he got older until this year. There's no reason to believe Knight won't.

In Dragic's 5th NBA season he avg'd 7.4 apg, and 2.8 turnovers pg. For Knight's 5th season it is 5.1 to 3.5.

I certainly hope Knight gets better, for all our sanity.

Picking season over age isn't really relevant particularly when Goran was playing pro ball overseas fora few years before coming here. Also, picking assists and turnovers when one is playing the 2 guard and the other PG is misguided. Best apples to apples comparison is age and Assist % and Turnover %.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&y1=2011&p1=dragigo01&y2=2016&p2=knighbr03&p3=&p4=&p5=&p6=

[AtheJ415]

I have a feeling we trade Bledsoe on draft night to get pick 4 or 5 for Dunn if he's there.

I would not be opposed to that deal. Wolves? Nets? Lakers?

The only team that would possibly be stupid enough to trade for him coming off of that injury is the Kings, because Rondo is leaving and Cousins might advocate for it. Nobody else would likely consider trading a high pick for a pg coming off injury. No one else even needs a PG except for Philly, but they'd almost certainly go for Dunn over Bledsoe.

The Wolves have been shopping fan forum favorite Rubio for years, but he's so bad at shooting nobody has given them an offer worth taking. They could trade for him. That stuff does happen. That's why there are physicals before a trade officially goes through.

As for LA not being stupid enough, I think you're forgetting how stupidly they've been run for the past half a decade. Same for the Nets.

[bwgood77]

I would not be opposed to that deal. Wolves? Nets? Lakers?

The only team that would possibly be stupid enough to trade for him coming off of that injury is the Kings, because Rondo is leaving and Cousins might advocate for it. Nobody else would likely consider trading a high pick for a pg coming off injury. No one else even needs a PG except for Philly, but they'd almost certainly go for Dunn over Bledsoe.

The Wolves have been shopping fan forum favorite Rubio for years, but he's so bad at shooting nobody has given them an offer worth taking. They could trade for him. That stuff does happen. That's why there are physicals before a trade officially goes through.

As for LA not being stupid enough, I think you're forgetting how stupidly they've been run for the past half a decade. Same for the Nets.

Well the Nets don't own their pick and the Lakers just drafted Russell and have Clarkson. I don't really see the Wolves trading for Bledsoe either.

[SC923]

At least McD never did something like this
https://mobile.twitter.com/billsimmons/status/466971322707214336

[bwgood77]

At least McD never did something like this
https://mobile.twitter.com/billsimmons/status/466971322707214336

Funny thing about that, is if you were watching the draft that year, when the trade went down, Simmons was a draft commentator, and he was visibly upset...or a better word is pissed that they made that trade.

[Mulhollanddrive]

We gave up the Lakers 1st, Minnesota 1st, Ennis (Pick 18) for 0 playoff wins.

[AtheJ415]

The only team that would possibly be stupid enough to trade for him coming off of that injury is the Kings, because Rondo is leaving and Cousins might advocate for it. Nobody else would likely consider trading a high pick for a pg coming off injury. No one else even needs a PG except for Philly, but they'd almost certainly go for Dunn over Bledsoe.

The Wolves have been shopping fan forum favorite Rubio for years, but he's so bad at shooting nobody has given them an offer worth taking. They could trade for him. That stuff does happen. That's why there are physicals before a trade officially goes through.

As for LA not being stupid enough, I think you're forgetting how stupidly they've been run for the past half a decade. Same for the Nets.

Well the Nets don't own their pick and the Lakers just drafted Russell and have Clarkson. I don't really see the Wolves trading for Bledsoe either.

The Lakers were shopping Russell a week ago and Clarkson is about to be an RFA. Not to mention, they are impatient as all hell and Bledsoe is on another planet relative to both.