Trade & FA Ideas & Discussion 3: #TheTimeline

[bwgood77]

I'm not "trippin" but Bender and Chriss should both look better as 2nd year players. They've been unimpressive.

I'll concede that neither are players that can create their own shot, an important skill to SL success, and they are playing with a PG that is only interested in making the flashy pass instead of the right one.

I expected Bender to look better than he has. I'm disappointed. I"d love for him to shoot 50% or better just once. He was 4-7 in the first half yesterday and then predictably he wet the bed in the 2nd half.

He'll never shoot 50% from the field if most of his shots are from 3. 21 of 37 of his shots have been from 3. Yesterday he was 2-6 from 3 which isn't terrible and outside of that he was 3-7. Now I'm not sure if they want him shooting that many 3s or not, but it's seemed like that's what they've wanted going back to last season. I think both bigs would do better if we could spread the floor even a little bit. Chriss' shooting is more worrisome being that he has shot far fewer 3s and dunks quite a bit and is nearly the same in overall fg%. At least there was some improvement yesterday. None of our "big 3" have been shooting well though, all between 32-37% overall.

[WeekapaugGroove]

To follow up on my post about team building one area I think my mindset has changed some of the past few years is I understand more why some teams who are winning but seem to be a bit "treadmilly" don't just blow it up. Take the Raptors for example they spent a ton of money this summer on a team that realistically isn't going to get past the Cavs short of some catastrophic injuries. But hell they are a 50+ win team so I get why they don't just burn it down and start over. It's hard to get back to on the mountain top. I was definitely guilty of saying the Suns should have blown up the team in those later Nash years. And maybe they should have but I understand more now why they didn't.

[BobbieL]

I'm not "trippin" but Bender and Chriss should both look better as 2nd year players. They've been unimpressive.

I'll concede that neither are players that can create their own shot, an important skill to SL success, and they are playing with a PG that is only interested in making the flashy pass instead of the right one.

I expected Bender to look better than he has. I'm disappointed. I"d love for him to shoot 50% or better just once. He was 4-7 in the first half yesterday and then predictably he wet the bed in the 2nd half.

He'll never shoot 50% from the field if most of his shots are from 3. 21 of 37 of his shots have been from 3. Yesterday he was 2-6 from 3 which isn't terrible and outside of that he was 3-7. Now I'm not sure if they want him shooting that many 3s or not, but it's seemed like that's what they've wanted going back to last season. I think both bigs would do better if we could spread the floor even a little bit. Chriss' shooting is more worrisome being that he has shot far fewer 3s and dunks quite a bit and is nearly the same in overall fg%. At least there was some improvement yesterday. None of our "big 3" have been shooting well though, all between 32-37% overall.

Do you think a pass first PG would not only help Booker but also the development for players like Chriss, Bender, JJack and Warren - meaning the players that will be the core . Get them better shots with better ball movement

[WeekapaugGroove]

Ahh the ole pass first point guard thing. I feel like tons of posters on every board covet one. A couple things; there aren't a ton of these guys being developed anymore. Yes; in theory it would help the development of the young guys by getting them the ball in the right spot BUT that pass first PG also needs to be able to shoot 3's or it's all for naught since if they can't then teams pack the paint and it's more of a detriment to an offense than a positive.

[bwgood77]

I'm not "trippin" but Bender and Chriss should both look better as 2nd year players. They've been unimpressive.

I'll concede that neither are players that can create their own shot, an important skill to SL success, and they are playing with a PG that is only interested in making the flashy pass instead of the right one.

I expected Bender to look better than he has. I'm disappointed. I"d love for him to shoot 50% or better just once. He was 4-7 in the first half yesterday and then predictably he wet the bed in the 2nd half.

He'll never shoot 50% from the field if most of his shots are from 3. 21 of 37 of his shots have been from 3. Yesterday he was 2-6 from 3 which isn't terrible and outside of that he was 3-7. Now I'm not sure if they want him shooting that many 3s or not, but it's seemed like that's what they've wanted going back to last season. I think both bigs would do better if we could spread the floor even a little bit. Chriss' shooting is more worrisome being that he has shot far fewer 3s and dunks quite a bit and is nearly the same in overall fg%. At least there was some improvement yesterday. None of our "big 3" have been shooting well though, all between 32-37% overall.

Do you think a pass first PG would not only help Booker but also the development for players like Chriss, Bender, JJack and Warren - meaning the players that will be the core . Get them better shots with better ball movement

Well yes, of course. If we had, say, Ulis, Booker, Dudley, Chriss and Bender playing together (I put Dudley in there for 3 pt shooting and floor spreading for this exercise), the floor would really open up and Chriss and Bender could operate inside, play the pick n roll, etc. Our lock of shooting/floor spreading and a pass first PG is definitely not going to help their play. I mean if they can't get into the paint and run into 3 guys in there, and are forced to shoot more from the 3, they are not going to shoot well. Now at least yesterday Chriss went in there anyway and was able to draw fouls and nail his shots from the line.

I think also I didn't or don't have nearly as high of expectations for either Bender or Chriss in the first couple of years in their career, and those are the two guys I wanted to draft. I always expected them to take about 3-4 years to really hit their strides. Most of the rookies that played really well last year were in their early 20s (Embiid and Saric at 22, Hield at 23, Brogdon at 24).

[MathiasPW]

Oh, I know...DeAngelo Russell at 2, and Okafor at 3 has been soooo much better than Booker at 13...or Parker at 2 and Gordon at 4 have contributed so much more to their teams than Warren at 14...and I don't even need to elaborate on 2013...

...but you go on with that mantra that higher pick always = higher success...I mean Bender proved as much last year over Chriss, right. He should over time, but I'll believe it when I see it, until then...

I said no such thing and I'm quite sure you know it.

And it's laughable to group all lottery picks together as if there's no difference between picking 14th vs 1st.

Then please elaborate on how that statement means something different than what I just provide examples to; you said it was 'laughable' to 'group lottery picks' as having 'no difference between picking 14th vs 1st.'

I provided concrete examples within the past few drafts of how 'end of the lottery' picks have played as well, or better than, draft picks that were selected in the top 4...or were you literally meaning 1st and 14th, because if that was your meaning, well, it's irrelevant since we've picked 14th ONCE...with Warren...but here you...comparison between #1 and #14.

http://bkref.com/tiny/wreOH

And you know as well as I do, that had Horny not had a love affair with Tucker, Warren deserved to play a lot more minutes than he did, so you'll need to go to the Per36 and the Advanced numbers for an accurate comparison.

Yep! Huge difference between #1 and #14...it's 'laughable', some might say, especially considering that even with another #1 overall pick, KAT, they couldn't do much better than us.

But back to your point...what exactly did you mean if it wasn't that access to higher draft picks ensures a better NBA player?

You can refute and rebut all you want, but that was your meaning, pure and simple.

This is the argument: http://www.82games.com/nbadraftpicks.htm

It´s a statistic, but it´s a probability. Sometimes the 13th pick outperforms the other 12, as your specific examples show. But that is the exception to the rule. When looking at long enough trends, you are more likely to draft a great player the earlier your pick is.

[BobbieL]

He'll never shoot 50% from the field if most of his shots are from 3. 21 of 37 of his shots have been from 3. Yesterday he was 2-6 from 3 which isn't terrible and outside of that he was 3-7. Now I'm not sure if they want him shooting that many 3s or not, but it's seemed like that's what they've wanted going back to last season. I think both bigs would do better if we could spread the floor even a little bit. Chriss' shooting is more worrisome being that he has shot far fewer 3s and dunks quite a bit and is nearly the same in overall fg%. At least there was some improvement yesterday. None of our "big 3" have been shooting well though, all between 32-37% overall.

Do you think a pass first PG would not only help Booker but also the development for players like Chriss, Bender, JJack and Warren - meaning the players that will be the core . Get them better shots with better ball movement

Well yes, of course. If we had, say, Ulis, Booker, Dudley, Chriss and Bender playing together (I put Dudley in there for 3 pt shooting and floor spreading for this exercise), the floor would really open up and Chriss and Bender could operate inside, play the pick n roll, etc. Our lock of shooting/floor spreading and a pass first PG is definitely not going to help their play. I mean if they can't get into the paint and run into 3 guys in there, and are forced to shoot more from the 3, they are not going to shoot well. Now at least yesterday Chriss went in there anyway and was able to draw fouls and nail his shots from the line.

I think also I didn't or don't have nearly as high of expectations for either Bender or Chriss in the first couple of years in their career, and those are the two guys I wanted to draft. I always expected them to take about 3-4 years to really hit their strides. Most of the rookies that played really well last year were in their early 20s (Embiid and Saric at 22, Hield at 23, Brogdon at 24).

Right, I am not in panic mode over Bender or Chriss based on summer league play. I just want to see improvement over the course of this season and next to get a better understanding of where they are as players. Even if they are not all-stars - but solid contributors, they can still be valuable pieces of the team.

For some reason, I see the two STARS of the team being Booker, obviously, but Josh Jackson as well.

[King4Day]

http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=24&p=57441272#p57441272

Please don't do things like this. That's how fan bases get a bad reputation.
Even if I was on board with the trolling, it wasn't even funny. There was very little discussion about Williams and the Knicks. Most Knicks fans probably didn't know or care about him. The video was horrendous too so that's not quite something I'd gloat to other fans with.

[rsavaj]

Think we're in for a rough year if Bender or Chriss don't improve their outside shot. The roster lacks spacing in a big way.

[NTB]

Read on Twitter

[darealjuice]

Think we're in for a rough year if Bender or Chriss don't improve their outside shot. The roster lacks spacing in a big way.

Agreed about spacing, the only way I can see our spacing somewhat improving is if we have Bender operating as a stretch 5 on offense so we get the center out of the paint, but we'd be a horrible rebounding team.

I think we're in a rough year and plenty of losses regardless though. The West as a whole only got better, and we're still about the same barring the improvement we should see from our young guys through the Summer. I expect some improvement from our second string with Ulis running the show from the jump and JJ (or TJ) being added, I expect Booker to take a step forward in efficiency, and I'd like for Chriss and Bender to see a lot of playing time and improve their consistency, but unless every young player takes a strong step forward I don't see us being outside of the bottom few teams in the West.

The hope for me is that the bottom of the East is so saturated with bad teams that they all get wins and beat each other up, leaving us with with an opportunity for a better/higher draft pick despite being in a better position as a franchise.

[Puff]

Suns have terrible ball movement... I would definitely push for Jackson to start.... He has looked good passing the ball around and he actually likes to do it rather than look for his own shots which the Suns have excess players who does.

Jackson should be coming off the bench unless Warren is starting at the 4, right now TJ is our second best player and by a pretty wide margin.

Chriss is the player that needs to come off the bench, unless he is playing center.

I want Bledsoe, Booker, Jackson and Warren on the court for as many minutes as possible. They are our best players.

[Puff]

Evan Sidery (from BSoTS) apparently talked to Woj at SL today.

Hard to believe there is not a market out there e for Len even at an offer of 6-7m - unless he turned down

Len has been overrated by this board and others forever. He sucks.

The rest of the NBA is clarifying this opinion.

[jcsunsfan]

Evan Sidery (from BSoTS) apparently talked to Woj at SL today.

Hard to believe there is not a market out there e for Len even at an offer of 6-7m - unless he turned down

Len has been overrated by this board and others forever. He sucks.

The rest of the NBA is clarifying this opinion.

I totally disagree. Centers are not in high demand this off-season. But I think he is under rated by this board. Most people here want him gone. I think he is worth bringing back on a reasonable deal.

[BobbieL]

Evan Sidery (from BSoTS) apparently talked to Woj at SL today.

Hard to believe there is not a market out there e for Len even at an offer of 6-7m - unless he turned down

Len has been overrated by this board and others forever. He sucks.

The rest of the NBA is clarifying this opinion.

I don't disagree but when you see Plumlee getting 52/4; Mozgov getting 66/4 and Meyers Leonard getting 40/4 - one would have thought Len would get paid

But two things happened
1) teams saw the big money for the centers and realized, these guys are not good - they are just tall
2) last summer teams overspent because the cap went up by like 25% so every team had money to burn

I am still a bit surprised a team isn't taking a flier - but if you make it too high, you are stuck with Len; if you make it too low, and say two years - makes it easy for the Suns to match. So, what team wants to offer Len 3/30 and get stuck with him and what team wants to offer 2/12 and know Phoenix will probably match.

[jcsunsfan]

Hard to believe there is not a market out there e for Len even at an offer of 6-7m - unless he turned down

Len has been overrated by this board and others forever. He sucks.

The rest of the NBA is clarifying this opinion.

I don't disagree but when you see Plumlee getting 52/4; Mozgov getting 66/4 and Meyers Leonard getting 40/4 - one would have thought Len would get paid

But two things happened
1) teams saw the big money for the centers and realized, these guys are not good - they are just tall
2) last summer teams overspent because the cap went up by like 25% so every team had money to burn

I am still a bit surprised a team isn't taking a flier - but if you make it too high, you are stuck with Len; if you make it too low, and say two years - makes it easy for the Suns to match. So, what team wants to offer Len 3/30 and get stuck with him and what team wants to offer 2/12 and know Phoenix will probably match.

This is it. I also think this is strategy by McD. Letting Woj publish that the Suns won't bother to match will probably get him a very low offer right now--which will be easy for the Suns to match.

[bwgood77]

Hard to believe there is not a market out there e for Len even at an offer of 6-7m - unless he turned down

Len has been overrated by this board and others forever. He sucks.

The rest of the NBA is clarifying this opinion.

I totally disagree. Centers are not in high demand this off-season. But I think he is under rated by this board. Most people here want him gone. I think he is worth bringing back on a reasonable deal.

I don't believe centers are in high demand and I didn't believe they would be going into the offseason, simply because I didn't think many teams needed centers. As far as what Puff and others have said, I don't think the rest of the nba is clarifying anything on Len though. Do people think Noel has zero value because he hasn't gotten any offers? Rarely do RFA's get offers...you see like one a year get an offer and then it usually gets matched. Does Nerlens Noel have zero interest and teams have proved he's essentially worth it because HE hasn't gotten an offer?

Now I do think there is a good chance if Len got an offer, that the Suns wouldn't match, but there is no way they'd tell Woj they wouldn't match ANY offer. That would make zero logical sense. That would mean they simply don't want him at all, and if that was the case, they would have withdrawn the QO making him an unrestricted free agent. This Evan Sidery guy is either full of crap, which is probably the case because Woj isn't going to tell some random Suns blogger his inside info, or if by some slim chance he did, he probably misquoted him and Woj said the Suns wouldn't match an unreasonable offer.

[Frank Lee]

To follow up on my post about team building one area I think my mindset has changed some of the past few years is I understand more why some teams who are winning but seem to be a bit "treadmilly" don't just blow it up. Take the Raptors for example they spent a ton of money this summer on a team that realistically isn't going to get past the Cavs short of some catastrophic injuries. But hell they are a 50+ win team so I get why they don't just burn it down and start over. It's hard to get back to on the mountain top. I was definitely guilty of saying the Suns should have blown up the team in those later Nash years. And maybe they should have but I understand more now why they didn't.

There is a difference between blowing it up and letting it erode. We went through 2-3 years where there wasn't any significant improvements. Arguably more talent exited than arrived. Sure, that can be partially explained with swapping dudes out for picks...but you can't neglect the present and expect the future to take care of itself. McDo loaded his basket with young eggs, then lined it with marginal baby sitting vets Chandler, Dudley, Barbs...temporary mediocre bridges.....Was McD hell bent on winning every deal so much he passed on moves that would have taken steps forward rather than inching our way into the future? You can only bank on draft picks to do so much. Averages say you wont hit a homer on too many selections, and will be damn lucky to get an extra base hit.

As of late, this franchise seems to get be getting in its own way. If y'all want to TIMELINE this sh*t out and pretend everything is going to be OK with these 20 year olds, well, thats your prerogative. But to think it isn't a treadmill of another nature is really viewing this movie with the Orange Binos.

I for one, would endorse acquiring a starting PF... which is really, our glaring weakness. If it costs a pick and a player or combo... so be it. Winning isn't everything, but fielding a competitive team who wins more than loses really should be the goal. The rest will take care of itself. Worst to first luck is rare. Playoff experience is quite valuable.

[Puff]

Hard to believe there is not a market out there e for Len even at an offer of 6-7m - unless he turned down

Len has been overrated by this board and others forever. He sucks.

The rest of the NBA is clarifying this opinion.

I totally disagree. Centers are not in high demand this off-season. But I think he is under rated by this board. Most people here want him gone. I think he is worth bringing back on a reasonable deal.

You are entitled to you opinion just like I am. I doubt that everyone believes as I do but I expect that I am not a loner as well. It would be interesting to see a poll as to their opinion on Len. At the end of the regular season there was a local poll, I think AZ central, as to who the fans would rather keep between Len and Williams. Williams received 87% of the votes.

I hope McDonough just moves on.

[Jarlaxle0204]

You are entitled to you opinion just like I am. I doubt that everyone believes as I do but I expect that I am not a loner as well. It would be interesting to see a poll as to their opinion on Len. At the end of the regular season there was a local poll, I think AZ central, as to who the fans would rather keep between Len and Williams. Williams received 87% of the votes.

I hope McDonough just moves on.