Draft Thread Part 2

[thamadkant]

Bender will be picked by Celtics if he is that good.

[Cactus Jack]

You put a lot of thought and analysis into them as similar prospects?

I believe there is a greater chance he's a bust. That's why I threw out the names of Bargnani & Darko. Not saying he will be identical to those players. Just hate taking chances on guys with his profile. Especially with a top 5 pick. Boom or Bust is often thrown around. I see less boom & more bust unfortunately. Pass.

Darko doesn't have the same profile at all, unless you just mean because he's european. Does that mean Murray's upside is Tony Delk or Ron Mercer and Ingram's upside is Christian Laettner?

I wasn't comparing his profile to either. Just stating the likelihood of him not living up to expectations (as a potential top 3 or 4 pick).

[Cactus Jack]

Bender will be picked by Celtics if he is that good.

Lets hope so.

[saintEscaton]

Scouting Report

Positives: 7-footer who can shoot the ball, has excellent handles, and can run the floor. Can play the two guard position. He's got great range on his shot -- ESPN.com saw him drain 10 NBA three pointers in a row during a workout on May 4. He likes to put the ball on the floor and has a sweet cross over. Quicker and more athletic than Dirk Nowitzki.

Negatives: The kid is still very raw. Doesn't get a lot of playing time so scouts have to rely on watching him in practice. Needs to develop his body and hit the weight room. Doesn't have the low-post skills of a Nowitzki or Gasol yet.

Summary: Every team in the NBA traveled to see him play. They all came away impressed. It isn't very often that you find a big man with the type of skills he possesses. While he's still a project, he's as fundamentally sound as anyone in the draft. Has the potential to play four positions in the NBA, that's why he's getting all of the attention. He's a lock for the lottery and could go much higher once teams start pondering the alternatives.





Scouting report for Bender? Nope. Its for Nikoloz Tskitishvili.

Sounds awfully familiar to this years Bender report. I've said before and Ill say again, I'm talkin out my ass. I don't know Bender's game and can only go by what I see. But to me I see a lot more glaring weaknesses then I do strengths. The case could be made for this for anyone selected at #4 and I get that, but in the end I just have a feeling about Brown and that he will transition well to the NBA game.

I'm not trying to attack you mate, so don't take this the wrong way, but can you give me one elite level skill that Brown has right now? From what I have seen and read it is really just "athleticism." We all know how many guys come into the league with elite athleticism and fail. How many have won the dunk contest and never been heard from again? He can't shoot. He can't pass. From all I can tell all he does is drive straight to the rim which is not going to happen at the next level. We have our own test case with Archie Goodwin there. A guy that can get to any spot he wants and still can't make an NBA career for himself with just that skill because he can't shoot, pass, rebound or defend.

I'll root for the guy if we take him just as I'll root for whoever we select. At least with Bender we know he is already an elite passer for a big-man, he runs like a gazelle for a 7-footer, and from what I've seen he defends pretty well. Does he have bust potential? Yup, a lot of it. So does every single player after the top 2. As much as people want Dunn to be the next Lillard or McCollum, he's not. As much as people want Hield to be the next Curry he's not. We just have to make the best decision we can on the information we have and hope it's the right one.

Bender projects to be a high end role player touted for his hustle and smarts, a jack of all master of none mechanical faceup big with limited awareness inside the key , not a threat off the bounce and has hard time blowing by anyone when he's putting it on the deck. Only took treys when he was wide open spotting up, doesn't get his feet set fast enough orhave a quick trigger release to take contested treys off of screens or pick n' pops. He is an above average playmaker but not quite a point forward in the mold of a Saric who actually ran PnRs as the primary ballhandler, but he can make flashy outlet passes, create out of the post and has enough of a handle to push the break although he is he is basically a SF in a 7 footer's body but not quite a Kirlienko becuase he isn't as freakishly long limbed or vertically explosive. He's promising as a team defender in space can hedge the ball screener, close out in a hurry and recover helpside for chasedowns but also overcommits and loses interior positioning so he's not really an anchoring rim protector for a free rover

[NavLDO]

Much rather have Deyotna Davis than massively reach for Chriss at 4, the dropoff between them isn't that considerable. Davis might not have the same upside but he is more bust proof and a safer bet to at least become a rotation big with elite rim protection/perimeter D. Also can play the 5 in spurts

This, saint, we can agree on. I like Davis. I just wish he had a bit more range, and better FT%, but maybe he can be coached up in that regard.

[bwgood77]

Bender projects to be a high end role player touted for his hustle and smarts, a jack of all master of none mechanical faceup big with limited awareness inside the key , not a threat off the bounce and has hard time blowing by anyone when he's putting it on the deck. Only took treys when he was wide open spotting up, doesn't get his feet set fast enough or have a quick trigger release to take contested treys off of screens or pick n' pops. He is an above average playmaker but not quite a point forward in the mold of a Saric who actually ran PnRs as the primary ballhandler, but he can make flashy outlet passes, create out of the post and has enough of a handle to push the break although he is he is basically a SF in a 7 footer's body but not quite a Kirlienko becuase he isn't as freakishly long limbed or vertically explosive.

I've seen you repost this a few times. Have you seen him in person or are you just making this up because it doesn't sound like how any of the scouts who have seen them describe him. He is so young and raw to pigeon hole him into a high end role player is what he is going to be is a little specific for an 18 year old who could wash out of the league or be a home run type pick.

I've seen a comparison to Draymond Green but I guess one could consider him a high end role player as well.

Though I guess Draymond Green was probably projected to be a role player at best after coming out as a senior.

[Cactus Jack]

Bender projects to be a high end role player touted for his hustle and smarts, a jack of all master of none mechanical faceup big with limited awareness inside the key , not a threat off the bounce and has hard time blowing by anyone when he's putting it on the deck. Only took treys when he was wide open spotting up, doesn't get his feet set fast enough or have a quick trigger release to take contested treys off of screens or pick n' pops. He is an above average playmaker but not quite a point forward in the mold of a Saric who actually ran PnRs as the primary ballhandler, but he can make flashy outlet passes, create out of the post and has enough of a handle to push the break although he is he is basically a SF in a 7 footer's body but not quite a Kirlienko becuase he isn't as freakishly long limbed or vertically explosive.

I've seen you repost this a few times. Have you seen him in person or are you just making this up because it doesn't sound like how any of the scouts who have seen them describe him. He is so young and raw to pigeon hole him into a high end role player is what he is going to be is a little specific for an 18 year old who could wash out of the league or be a home run type pick.

I've seen a comparison to Draymond Green but I guess one could consider him a high end role player as well.

Draymond? Wow.

Dray 6'7'' 230
Bender 7'1'' 225
???

[saintEscaton]

Avatar the Last Dragan Bender

[bwgood77]

Bender will be picked by Celtics if he is that good.

Lets hope so.

Praying? Are you THAT big of Suns fan now? I know you mentioned you had lived here, but just curious, why suddenly jump on as a Suns fan after the worst season since their inaugural season? I see you mostly frequented the Blazers forum a year ago.

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1399694&p=44355599#p44355599

Or are you a Spurs spy hoping we NEVER get good? I see last offseason on the Spurs forum you referred to the Spurs getting a player as "our next center".

viewtopic.php?f=30&t=1396368&start=40#start_here

Highly suspicious....

[WeekapaugGroove]

Some suns writers posting videos of Thon makers workout today. I'm not breaking any news here but damn is he long. I can't see him getting to the back of the 1st round. Some team in the teens is gonna fall in love with his potential.

[Cactus Jack]

Bender will be picked by Celtics if he is that good.

Lets hope so.

Praying? Are you THAT big of Suns fan now? I know you mentioned you had lived here, but just curious, why suddenly jump on as a Suns fan after the worst season since their inaugural season? I see you mostly frequented the Blazers forum a year ago.

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1399694&p=44355599#p44355599

Or are you a Spurs spy hoping we NEVER get good? I see last offseason on the Spurs forum you referred to the Spurs getting a player as "our next center".

viewtopic.php?f=30&t=1396368&start=40#start_here

Highly suspicious....

You caught me. No, in all honesty I am a Suns fan. Have been since the Nash days. Haven't spent as much time on these forums as I would like. I will admit, I do like San Antonio. As unpopular as that is around these parts. But, they aren't my favorite club (Sonics/Suns). I have connections to PHX. Will always be a fan of the team.

[Phnxsports]

Scouting Report

Positives: 7-footer who can shoot the ball, has excellent handles, and can run the floor. Can play the two guard position. He's got great range on his shot -- ESPN.com saw him drain 10 NBA three pointers in a row during a workout on May 4. He likes to put the ball on the floor and has a sweet cross over. Quicker and more athletic than Dirk Nowitzki.

Negatives: The kid is still very raw. Doesn't get a lot of playing time so scouts have to rely on watching him in practice. Needs to develop his body and hit the weight room. Doesn't have the low-post skills of a Nowitzki or Gasol yet.

Summary: Every team in the NBA traveled to see him play. They all came away impressed. It isn't very often that you find a big man with the type of skills he possesses. While he's still a project, he's as fundamentally sound as anyone in the draft. Has the potential to play four positions in the NBA, that's why he's getting all of the attention. He's a lock for the lottery and could go much higher once teams start pondering the alternatives.





Scouting report for Bender? Nope. Its for Nikoloz Tskitishvili.

Sounds awfully familiar to this years Bender report. I've said before and Ill say again, I'm talkin out my ass. I don't know Bender's game and can only go by what I see. But to me I see a lot more glaring weaknesses then I do strengths. The case could be made for this for anyone selected at #4 and I get that, but in the end I just have a feeling about Brown and that he will transition well to the NBA game.

I'm not trying to attack you mate, so don't take this the wrong way, but can you give me one elite level skill that Brown has right now? From what I have seen and read it is really just "athleticism." We all know how many guys come into the league with elite athleticism and fail. How many have won the dunk contest and never been heard from again? He can't shoot. He can't pass. From all I can tell all he does is drive straight to the rim which is not going to happen at the next level. We have our own test case with Archie Goodwin there. A guy that can get to any spot he wants and still can't make an NBA career for himself with just that skill because he can't shoot, pass, rebound or defend.

I'll root for the guy if we take him just as I'll root for whoever we select. At least with Bender we know he is already an elite passer for a big-man, he runs like a gazelle for a 7-footer, and from what I've seen he defends pretty well. Does he have bust potential? Yup, a lot of it. So does every single player after the top 2. As much as people want Dunn to be the next Lillard or McCollum, he's not. As much as people want Hield to be the next Curry he's not. We just have to make the best decision we can on the information we have and hope it's the right one.

No worries Carey. Ill do my best to explain but will probably ramble on and on without making a point

I think your right, it is hard to say he possess an elite skill right now. Some would argue he does in defensive ability, and as you stated athleticism. But I think it's misleading to say any of these kids possess elite anything. More has to be taken into account then meets the eye in regards to previous performance. Jimmer Freddette was an elite scorer in college. Not so much in the pros. Go look at Kawhi Leonard's old scouting reports and all of them state something like "Weaknesses: Does not have one aspect offensively that stands out or which allows him to consistently score the ball"

It's just a gut thing for me with Brown. Something about his intelligence, cockiness, system he was in holding him back from what I think he can truly be etc. I think he is a better shooter then meets the eye, has a wicked left hand to go with his right hand, great change of direction ability, good handles, about 6'7/6'8 with 6'11 wingspan etc. I don't see Archie Goodwin in him at all. Much more mature, and high basketball IQ then Archie.

In the end I suppose there have been a lot of athletic players who never amounted to anything, But Id rather take the amazing athlete with the right intangibles and mindset and teach him how to do the rest, then a guy who's elite traits are over inflated.

I don't see a lot of elite traits in the clips ive watched of Bender. He doesn't shoot as well as everyone here is saying from what I can see. Delivery is slow and methodical. No back to the basket game at all, sure seems like he has no explosion or lift. He cant jump. Lots of rebounds are tap backs because he gets no lift and if he gains enough weight to fight off being pushed around, how much will that further hinder his lack of explosiveness and no back to basket game? The only thing that Bender has that I would deem elite is he can run without looking like a 7 footer running.

For all the guys that weren't much more then athletes some still became successful just like those who didn't. Shawn Marion is a good example of a guy who came in as nothing more then an athlete and made an all star career out of it and god knows his shot was one of the worst of all time. Like watching a praying mantis try to play ball. Devin Booker is another who came into the league with people saying he didn't have enough athletically to be any more then a shooter and proved everyone wrong.

[saintEscaton]

Bender projects to be a high end role player touted for his hustle and smarts, a jack of all master of none mechanical faceup big with limited awareness inside the key , not a threat off the bounce and has hard time blowing by anyone when he's putting it on the deck. Only took treys when he was wide open spotting up, doesn't get his feet set fast enough or have a quick trigger release to take contested treys off of screens or pick n' pops. He is an above average playmaker but not quite a point forward in the mold of a Saric who actually ran PnRs as the primary ballhandler, but he can make flashy outlet passes, create out of the post and has enough of a handle to push the break although he is he is basically a SF in a 7 footer's body but not quite a Kirlienko becuase he isn't as freakishly long limbed or vertically explosive.

I've seen you repost this a few times. Have you seen him in person or are you just making this up because it doesn't sound like how any of the scouts who have seen them describe him. He is so young and raw to pigeon hole him into a high end role player is what he is going to be is a little specific for an 18 year old who could wash out of the league or be a home run type pick.

I've seen a comparison to Draymond Green but I guess one could consider him a high end role player as well.

Though I guess Draymond Green was probably projected to be a role player at best after coming out as a senior.

Yes I'm making it up based on the limited tape I've been able to scavenge, any scout who is not a Croatian national thinking he is Toni Kukoc reincarnate would say tha'ts a fair assessment. Gotta take all of it with a grain of salt, rather than uncritically parrot the rave reviews of the magical unicorn.

[bwgood77]

Bender projects to be a high end role player touted for his hustle and smarts, a jack of all master of none mechanical faceup big with limited awareness inside the key , not a threat off the bounce and has hard time blowing by anyone when he's putting it on the deck. Only took treys when he was wide open spotting up, doesn't get his feet set fast enough or have a quick trigger release to take contested treys off of screens or pick n' pops. He is an above average playmaker but not quite a point forward in the mold of a Saric who actually ran PnRs as the primary ballhandler, but he can make flashy outlet passes, create out of the post and has enough of a handle to push the break although he is he is basically a SF in a 7 footer's body but not quite a Kirlienko becuase he isn't as freakishly long limbed or vertically explosive.

I've seen you repost this a few times. Have you seen him in person or are you just making this up because it doesn't sound like how any of the scouts who have seen them describe him. He is so young and raw to pigeon hole him into a high end role player is what he is going to be is a little specific for an 18 year old who could wash out of the league or be a home run type pick.

I've seen a comparison to Draymond Green but I guess one could consider him a high end role player as well.

Though I guess Draymond Green was probably projected to be a role player at best after coming out as a senior.

Yes I'm making it up based on the limited tape I've been able to scavenge, any scout who is not a Croatian national thinking he is Toni Kukoc reincarnate would say tha'ts a fair assessment. Gotta take all of it with a grain of salt, rather than uncritically parrot the rave reviews of the magical unicorn.

I haven't seen one scout say Toni Kukoc other than that is his favorite player and who he aspires to be, but that he probably isn't the best comp.

[saintEscaton]

I definitely agree that us Yanks aren't the most well informed and acknowledge Euroleague/ even Eurocup competition isn't comparable to Div 1 NCAA but he the only body of work he has to judge is playing in second division of Israeli League which is barely a step up.

[bwgood77]

I definitely agree that us Yanks aren't the most well informed and acknowledge Euroleague/ even Eurocup competition isn't comparable to Div 1 NCAA but he the only body of work he has to judge is playing in second division of Israeli League which is barely a step up.

Yes, but Nikola Jokic, for example, at the same age, played for Mega Vizura, a team based in Belgrade that didn't even join the Adriatic league until the 14-15 season. So they were not playing at near the level of competition, particularly in 2013 when Jokic was 18 playing for them his first year. As a matter of fact, he couldn't even make their senior team, so he played on the junior team, not playing much.

The following year, when he was 19, he did play on the senior team, who still wasn't playing at near the level of competition as the team Bender was on, and averaged 11 pts, 6 rebounds and 2 assists. Though a year older, he wasn't projected as near the type of player Bender is at an earlier age, but was taken by the Nuggets with the 41st pick. Two years later, he makes the all rookie team along with Towns, Okafor, Porzingis and Booker, and many thought he was the second best rookie this year.

Pelton still has a translated projection higher than Jokic, Nurkic and Porzingis at the same time coming into the draft and MUCH MUCH higher than Ingram, Murray and Dunn.

[bwgood77]

Regarding draft, i think it would be wise for you to trade the #4 if you dont like anyone in particular that is available there for some decent vet who can help the team from get-go.

You're pretty familiar with Bender. Do you think the Suns should take him if he is there? I agree they should trade the pick or at least gauge interest for it if Bender isn't there, but would rather it wasn't for a vet (someone who's been in the league more than a handful of years).

[saintEscaton]

The WARP system seeks to evaluate players in the context of a team made up of them and four completely average players. The performance of this team is then compared to that of a team made up of four average players and one replacement-level player.” A replacement level is said to perform at 83% of an “average player,” and a team full of replacement level players would win 10 games over an 82 game season. It accounts for the floor-spacing value that 3-point shooting provides and weightsunassisted field goals differently but requires assumptions about the value of assists, the tradeoff between usage and efficiency non-standardized definition of repalcement level ."

[bwgood77]

Bender projects to be a high end role player touted for his hustle and smarts, a jack of all master of none mechanical faceup big with limited awareness inside the key , not a threat off the bounce and has hard time blowing by anyone when he's putting it on the deck. Only took treys when he was wide open spotting up, doesn't get his feet set fast enough or have a quick trigger release to take contested treys off of screens or pick n' pops. He is an above average playmaker but not quite a point forward in the mold of a Saric who actually ran PnRs as the primary ballhandler, but he can make flashy outlet passes, create out of the post and has enough of a handle to push the break although he is he is basically a SF in a 7 footer's body but not quite a Kirlienko becuase he isn't as freakishly long limbed or vertically explosive.

I've seen you repost this a few times. Have you seen him in person or are you just making this up because it doesn't sound like how any of the scouts who have seen them describe him. He is so young and raw to pigeon hole him into a high end role player is what he is going to be is a little specific for an 18 year old who could wash out of the league or be a home run type pick.

I've seen a comparison to Draymond Green but I guess one could consider him a high end role player as well.

Draymond? Wow.

Dray 6'7'' 230
Bender 7'1'' 225
???

Ford: It's a sexy comparison. They're both 7-footers with great motors and versatile skill sets.

But there are differences. Porzingis is a better athlete and shot-blocker and came with much more experience. Bender is arguably a more versatile defender, better shooter and better passer. Most of the international scouts I've spoken with think Porzingis is a better prospect -- though Bender has his fans.

Bender loves a Toni Kukoc comp. That's his hero. But he's not as skilled offensively.

I'm not sure he has an ideal comp. Perhaps the closest I can come is a much bigger Draymond Green. Same versatility on both ends. Similar motor and athleticism. Just a lot taller and skinnier.

Pelton: Agreed on all counts regarding Bender and Porzingis. They're different players.

Bender has broader perimeter skills. We didn't see his playmaking much for Maccabi, given his limited role, but Bender's performance for Croatia in the 2014 FIBA U-18 European Championships is instructive. He averaged 4.9 assists, third among all players.

Because Porzingis was a year further along in his development, it's tough to compare the two players at the point they were drafted. But if we compare Bender to Porzingis in 2014, when Porzingis was the same age, the comparison is more reasonable -- and favorable to Bender.

His translated NBA winning percentage (the per-minute component of my wins above replacement player metric, or WARP) is .444. During 2013-14, Porzingis had a translated .389 winning percentage in the Spanish ACB. (He improved to .461 in 2014-15.)

As a result, Bender performs slightly better in my WARP projections, which factor in age and projected NBA performance. His 3.4 WARP projection is tied with Clint Capela for the best from a prospect in Europe since Ricky Rubio in 2009 (3.7), just ahead of Jusuf Nurkic (3.3), Porzingis (3.2) and Nikola Jokic (3.1).

My SCHOENE projection system has an equally difficult time finding a comp for Bender. Comparing him to NCAA prospects, no player has a similarity score of better than 90 at the same age -- which means there are no easy statistical comps.

http://espn.go.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/15676915/is-dragan-bender-next-kristaps-porzingis-nba

Ford's not my favorite analyst, but I think it's safe to say he knows more than anyone here about Bender (other than maybe people from Europe) because he goes and sees him in person and talks to nba team scouts, etc.

[AtheJ415]

Scouting Report

Positives: 7-footer who can shoot the ball, has excellent handles, and can run the floor. Can play the two guard position. He's got great range on his shot -- ESPN.com saw him drain 10 NBA three pointers in a row during a workout on May 4. He likes to put the ball on the floor and has a sweet cross over. Quicker and more athletic than Dirk Nowitzki.

Negatives: The kid is still very raw. Doesn't get a lot of playing time so scouts have to rely on watching him in practice. Needs to develop his body and hit the weight room. Doesn't have the low-post skills of a Nowitzki or Gasol yet.

Summary: Every team in the NBA traveled to see him play. They all came away impressed. It isn't very often that you find a big man with the type of skills he possesses. While he's still a project, he's as fundamentally sound as anyone in the draft. Has the potential to play four positions in the NBA, that's why he's getting all of the attention. He's a lock for the lottery and could go much higher once teams start pondering the alternatives.





Scouting report for Bender? Nope. Its for Nikoloz Tskitishvili.

Sounds awfully familiar to this years Bender report. I've said before and Ill say again, I'm talkin out my ass. I don't know Bender's game and can only go by what I see. But to me I see a lot more glaring weaknesses then I do strengths. The case could be made for this for anyone selected at #4 and I get that, but in the end I just have a feeling about Brown and that he will transition well to the NBA game.

I'm not trying to attack you mate, so don't take this the wrong way, but can you give me one elite level skill that Brown has right now? From what I have seen and read it is really just "athleticism." We all know how many guys come into the league with elite athleticism and fail. How many have won the dunk contest and never been heard from again? He can't shoot. He can't pass. From all I can tell all he does is drive straight to the rim which is not going to happen at the next level. We have our own test case with Archie Goodwin there. A guy that can get to any spot he wants and still can't make an NBA career for himself with just that skill because he can't shoot, pass, rebound or defend.

I'll root for the guy if we take him just as I'll root for whoever we select. At least with Bender we know he is already an elite passer for a big-man, he runs like a gazelle for a 7-footer, and from what I've seen he defends pretty well. Does he have bust potential? Yup, a lot of it. So does every single player after the top 2. As much as people want Dunn to be the next Lillard or McCollum, he's not. As much as people want Hield to be the next Curry he's not. We just have to make the best decision we can on the information we have and hope it's the right one.

Bender projects to be a high end role player touted for his hustle and smarts, a jack of all master of none mechanical faceup big with limited awareness inside the key , not a threat off the bounce and has hard time blowing by anyone when he's putting it on the deck. Only took treys when he was wide open spotting up, doesn't get his feet set fast enough orhave a quick trigger release to take contested treys off of screens or pick n' pops. He is an above average playmaker but not quite a point forward in the mold of a Saric who actually ran PnRs as the primary ballhandler, but he can make flashy outlet passes, create out of the post and has enough of a handle to push the break although he is he is basically a SF in a 7 footer's body but not quite a Kirlienko becuase he isn't as freakishly long limbed or vertically explosive. He's promising as a team defender in space can hedge the ball screener, close out in a hurry and recover helpside for chasedowns but also overcommits and loses interior positioning so he's not really an anchoring rim protector for a free rover

Horrible take imo. I nearly threw up.