Official Trade Thread: New Year, New Thread, New Laughs

[letsgosuns]

If you think Johnson is still a better player then you're wrong. Even if he was, dumping IT, Green (another expiring, so even if you think he's a negative simply don't re-sign him), Plumlee is moronic.

IT isn't a fan favorite here, but his advanced stats are awesome and he has value. He makes $6 million going forward, 1/11 of the CURRENT cap, which is expected to go up and make him even more valuable. Negatives aside, he's a 6th man of the year finalist for the next 5 years or so, and his contract is miniscule.

Plumlee is a quality, proven backup big in a league without many good big men (resulting in guys like Mozgov getting 2 1sts in exchange) on a rookie deal for a few more years. He also has value even if his PT on this particular team is declining.

You pay what the market dictates. Joe Johnson, Deron Williams, and Brooke Lopez have all been shopped all season long, with the 1st 2 being given away with no takers. The Nets want to rid themselves of bad contracts. With Lopez they want some type of return, but with the others they are happy to dump them. You don't trade an All-NBA player from last year in his prime, even if you think he's leaving, for a guy the other team is trying to give away and who is also expiring.

I don't think it's a stretch to say Phoenix could get a first for IT and a first for Plumlee and a 2nd for Green. So essentially you're trading Dragic, 2 1sts, a 2nd, and Zoran for an expiring 33 year old.

So even if you think Joe is better, this only makes sense if the only thing you care about is this season, and even then our bench is going to take a step back without IT and Green and Plumlee.

Maybe you and I just think differently about the Suns and what they are. This team will never go anywhere with a dual point guard lineup and especially not a three point guard lineup. Joe Johnson allows to team to match up so much better on defense it is not even close. I put Plumlee and Green in the trade because I had to in order to make it work financially. However, If you want to keep a player like Plumlee who went from being the starter, to the backup, to playing so terrible the Suns had to trade to get a replacement for him then I do not know what you are watching. And Thomas' contract might be miniscule, but his impact is not. I 100% despise his game and everything he does. Go ahead and tell me one team in the history of the NBA that won a championship with a 5'9" point guard as a major part of the team. It is impossible for him to play defense because players shoot over him like he is not even there.

Even if that was true, you don't throw away our best or 2nd best player for a guy on the brink of retirement. This trade is one that cripples our future in exchange for an 8 seed.

And the Suns didn't "have to trade to get a replacement for (Plumlee)". They saw a player who fit what they do and need as well as anyone in the entire league, can play both C and backup PF (so not just to replace Plumlee, in fact he plays PF a LOT for us) and picked him up to get his bird rights. Plumlee's miniscule salary allows us to add more players who compete at his positions without crippling us. And watch other teams besides the Suns. There are countless teams in this league who could use a backup as good as him. Backup bigs in this league all, for the most part, suck. Wright is the best there is in that department. Plumlee's still probably a top 5-10 backup center. Our problem is our starters aren't as good as many teams' stars at 3 of the 5 positions on the court.

And hate to break it to you, but Isaiah has proven to be good enough to be a bench player on a title team. Just because it hasn't happened before is quite frankly irrelevant. There was a time when nobody could travel faster than a horse. Times change. Just like Joe Johnson used to be better than Goran Dragic, but isn't anymore. Isaiah's advanced stats capture his defensive weaknesses, and he's still better than any other bench PG out there despite that. Most backup PGs from title teams aren't capable of putting up 20 and 8 on the offensive end efficiently. He takes bad shots, but he hits more of them than other PGs hit good shots. I get the frustration with him, but he's actually one of the reasons we're good and not the problem.

Also, Goran is 6'4". There are plenty of NBA teams that have won titles with 6'4" shooting guards.

The reason this team isn't going anywhere isn't because of our point guards. Our point guards are our best players. The reason is that we lack developed skill at other positions, namely SF-C. Instead of dumping our current, very good guards for an over-the-hill, traditional 2 guard, we should be trying to use pieces (including one of those guards if need be) to acquire SFs, PFs, and Cs as good as our point guards. If our 3-5 spots were as good as our 1 and 2 spots we'd no question be contending.

Thomas has proven to be good enough to be a bench player on a title team? Since when? He has never even been to the playoffs in his career. The only thing he has proven to me is that he has a low IQ. The opposite of what you need from a championship player. Sure he can score points in bunches but he is selfish which is the opposite of what you want from a point guard. Allen Iverson is best scoring little point guard of all time and the best he could possibly do is win one game in the NBA finals against that dominant Lakers team who were bigger than everyone (not a coincidence the biggest team wins the title).

I said earlier this season that the Suns best players are the point guards. That is the problem. The three best players all play the same position and also happen to be the smallest players on the team. It is the definition of redundancy. And Dragic might be 6'4", but he is not a shooting guard. Dwayne Wade is a 6'4" shooting guard. Regardless of athleticism, their games are nothing like each other because Dragic is a point guard and Wade is a shooting guard. I am sure you know how different their games are.

[AtheJ415]

Maybe you and I just think differently about the Suns and what they are. This team will never go anywhere with a dual point guard lineup and especially not a three point guard lineup. Joe Johnson allows to team to match up so much better on defense it is not even close. I put Plumlee and Green in the trade because I had to in order to make it work financially. However, If you want to keep a player like Plumlee who went from being the starter, to the backup, to playing so terrible the Suns had to trade to get a replacement for him then I do not know what you are watching. And Thomas' contract might be miniscule, but his impact is not. I 100% despise his game and everything he does. Go ahead and tell me one team in the history of the NBA that won a championship with a 5'9" point guard as a major part of the team. It is impossible for him to play defense because players shoot over him like he is not even there.

Even if that was true, you don't throw away our best or 2nd best player for a guy on the brink of retirement. This trade is one that cripples our future in exchange for an 8 seed.

And the Suns didn't "have to trade to get a replacement for (Plumlee)". They saw a player who fit what they do and need as well as anyone in the entire league, can play both C and backup PF (so not just to replace Plumlee, in fact he plays PF a LOT for us) and picked him up to get his bird rights. Plumlee's miniscule salary allows us to add more players who compete at his positions without crippling us. And watch other teams besides the Suns. There are countless teams in this league who could use a backup as good as him. Backup bigs in this league all, for the most part, suck. Wright is the best there is in that department. Plumlee's still probably a top 5-10 backup center. Our problem is our starters aren't as good as many teams' stars at 3 of the 5 positions on the court.

And hate to break it to you, but Isaiah has proven to be good enough to be a bench player on a title team. Just because it hasn't happened before is quite frankly irrelevant. There was a time when nobody could travel faster than a horse. Times change. Just like Joe Johnson used to be better than Goran Dragic, but isn't anymore. Isaiah's advanced stats capture his defensive weaknesses, and he's still better than any other bench PG out there despite that. Most backup PGs from title teams aren't capable of putting up 20 and 8 on the offensive end efficiently. He takes bad shots, but he hits more of them than other PGs hit good shots. I get the frustration with him, but he's actually one of the reasons we're good and not the problem.

Also, Goran is 6'4". There are plenty of NBA teams that have won titles with 6'4" shooting guards.

The reason this team isn't going anywhere isn't because of our point guards. Our point guards are our best players. The reason is that we lack developed skill at other positions, namely SF-C. Instead of dumping our current, very good guards for an over-the-hill, traditional 2 guard, we should be trying to use pieces (including one of those guards if need be) to acquire SFs, PFs, and Cs as good as our point guards. If our 3-5 spots were as good as our 1 and 2 spots we'd no question be contending.

Thomas has proven to be good enough to be a bench player on a title team? Since when? He has never even been to the playoffs in his career. The only thing he has proven to me is that he has a low IQ. The opposite of what you need from a championship player. Sure he can score points in bunches but he is selfish which is the opposite of what you want from a point guard. Allen Iverson is best scoring little point guard of all time and the best he could possibly do is win one game in the NBA finals against that dominant Lakers team who were bigger than everyone (not a coincidence the biggest team wins the title).

I said earlier this season that the Suns best players are the point guards. That is the problem. The three best players all play the same position and also happen to be the smallest players on the team. It is the definition of redundancy. And Dragic might be 6'4", but he is not a shooting guard. Dwayne Wade is a 6'4" shooting guard. Regardless of athleticism, their games are nothing like each other because Dragic is a point guard and Wade is a shooting guard. I am sure you know how different their games are.

So Steve Nash I guess hasn't proven he can be the PG on a title team since he hasn't been to the finals? If the requirement for being a championship player is making the playoffs, then the Suns should cut basically the entire team right now. I can name countless NBA finals champion bench players who are worse than IT. That should be enough. For instance, Norris Cole was the backup PG for Miami. Corey Joseph for the Spurs. There isn't a person who objectively thinks either are better players.

Kobe has been crazy selfish during many years and he's won 5 titles as the 2nd best player on his team in most of them. I'm not saying he's anywhere close to a Kobe, but I am saying selfishness isn't a hinderance so long as you produce better than the unselfish guys from an efficiency perspective, and Isaiah does that. In fact, take Isaiah's assists per game and compare them to nba champion bench players and you'll see he's upper tier, and same goes for his FG% despite his shot selection.

You're just wrong about the problem. When you have 2 borderline stars and a bunch of solid to really good role players, you don't replace the borderline stars. Instead, you replace some of the solid to really good role players with stars, assuming you have the additional pieces to do so (which we do given draft picks and prospects) so that you end up with a star or 2 on top of the 2 borderline stars in your starting lineup. I'd agree if the league was hemorrhaging solid 2 guards, but it's a weak position. Style of play or not, Goran is a top 5 shooting guard in this league.

[Fo-Real]

Jennings is done for the year... they need a pg.... I know of a 5"9 dude who craves a starting job!!!!

[AtheJ415]

Jennings is done for the year... they need a pg.... I know of a 5"9 dude who craves a starting job!!!!

What picks do they have? I can only see us wanting Monroe from them, but they'll likely want to keep him and he also rejected a near-max last year, so he would cost a ton to keep anyways.

I might be okay with IT for the right draft picks.

[letsgosuns]

Even if that was true, you don't throw away our best or 2nd best player for a guy on the brink of retirement. This trade is one that cripples our future in exchange for an 8 seed.

And the Suns didn't "have to trade to get a replacement for (Plumlee)". They saw a player who fit what they do and need as well as anyone in the entire league, can play both C and backup PF (so not just to replace Plumlee, in fact he plays PF a LOT for us) and picked him up to get his bird rights. Plumlee's miniscule salary allows us to add more players who compete at his positions without crippling us. And watch other teams besides the Suns. There are countless teams in this league who could use a backup as good as him. Backup bigs in this league all, for the most part, suck. Wright is the best there is in that department. Plumlee's still probably a top 5-10 backup center. Our problem is our starters aren't as good as many teams' stars at 3 of the 5 positions on the court.

And hate to break it to you, but Isaiah has proven to be good enough to be a bench player on a title team. Just because it hasn't happened before is quite frankly irrelevant. There was a time when nobody could travel faster than a horse. Times change. Just like Joe Johnson used to be better than Goran Dragic, but isn't anymore. Isaiah's advanced stats capture his defensive weaknesses, and he's still better than any other bench PG out there despite that. Most backup PGs from title teams aren't capable of putting up 20 and 8 on the offensive end efficiently. He takes bad shots, but he hits more of them than other PGs hit good shots. I get the frustration with him, but he's actually one of the reasons we're good and not the problem.

Also, Goran is 6'4". There are plenty of NBA teams that have won titles with 6'4" shooting guards.

The reason this team isn't going anywhere isn't because of our point guards. Our point guards are our best players. The reason is that we lack developed skill at other positions, namely SF-C. Instead of dumping our current, very good guards for an over-the-hill, traditional 2 guard, we should be trying to use pieces (including one of those guards if need be) to acquire SFs, PFs, and Cs as good as our point guards. If our 3-5 spots were as good as our 1 and 2 spots we'd no question be contending.

Thomas has proven to be good enough to be a bench player on a title team? Since when? He has never even been to the playoffs in his career. The only thing he has proven to me is that he has a low IQ. The opposite of what you need from a championship player. Sure he can score points in bunches but he is selfish which is the opposite of what you want from a point guard. Allen Iverson is best scoring little point guard of all time and the best he could possibly do is win one game in the NBA finals against that dominant Lakers team who were bigger than everyone (not a coincidence the biggest team wins the title).

I said earlier this season that the Suns best players are the point guards. That is the problem. The three best players all play the same position and also happen to be the smallest players on the team. It is the definition of redundancy. And Dragic might be 6'4", but he is not a shooting guard. Dwayne Wade is a 6'4" shooting guard. Regardless of athleticism, their games are nothing like each other because Dragic is a point guard and Wade is a shooting guard. I am sure you know how different their games are.

So Steve Nash I guess hasn't proven he can be the PG on a title team since he hasn't been to the finals? If the requirement for being a championship player is making the playoffs, then the Suns should cut basically the entire team right now. I can name countless NBA finals champion bench players who are worse than IT. That should be enough. For instance, Norris Cole was the backup PG for Miami. Corey Joseph for the Spurs. There isn't a person who objectively thinks either are better players.

Kobe has been crazy selfish during many years and he's won 5 titles as the 2nd best player on his team in most of them. I'm not saying he's anywhere close to a Kobe, but I am saying selfishness isn't a hinderance so long as you produce better than the unselfish guys from an efficiency perspective, and Isaiah does that. In fact, take Isaiah's assists per game and compare them to nba champion bench players and you'll see he's upper tier, and same goes for his FG% despite his shot selection.

You're just wrong about the problem. When you have 2 borderline stars and a bunch of solid to really good role players, you don't replace the borderline stars. Instead, you replace some of the solid to really good role players with stars, assuming you have the additional pieces to do so (which we do given draft picks and prospects) so that you end up with a star or 2 on top of the 2 borderline stars in your starting lineup. I'd agree if the league was hemorrhaging solid 2 guards, but it's a weak position. Style of play or not, Goran is a top 5 shooting guard in this league.

You are skewing what I said so dramatically it is ridiculous. I said name me a 5'9" point guard who was a major piece on a championship team. I said how has Thomas proven to be a championship caliber bench player. The guy has been in the league for only a few years and has done nothing but be a good scorer okay. You are bringing up Nash and Kobe? What are you talking about. Cut the entire team now? You are going on some tirade about nothing relevant to what I said. Kobe being selfish? Duh. He is one of the most phenomenal scorers ever with dominant athleticism and also oh yeah, how many first team all NBA, All defense, all star game mvp's, and regular season mvp's has he won. Compare Thomas to Kobe when Thomas does anything like that. Kobe Bryant is a shooting guard. He is supposed to take a lot of shots. Isaiah Thomas is a point guard. He is supposed to pass the ball. Steve Nash did what a point guard is supposed to. Pass the ball. Create easy shots for teammates. That is the definition of a point guard.

I am wrong about the problem? No I am not. I have a different opinion than yours so you believe I am wrong. There is no right or wrong about anything involving this. Their is only opinion. You just said it yourself also. The Suns have borderline all stars. BORDERLINE. You want to pay a border line all star 15-18 million dollars a year? I sure do not. And also, how would the Suns be able to turn role players into stars? Who wants to trade their star for players for guys like the Morris brothers, Tucker, Plumlee, Green, or Thomas. No one.

By the way, here is an article about top 5 shooting guards this season. http://fansided.com/2015/01/23/top-5-nb ... -season/6/ Dragic ain't on there. Maybe he would have been last year. Not this year. Not even close this year. He is having a down year compared to last year.

[letsgosuns]

By the way, Dragic, Bledsoe, Green, Bullcok, Wright, and Plumlee all have been on teams that made the playoffs. So I guess the Suns would not cut the entire team huh. In addition, I said name me a team that had a 5'9" player that played a major role on the team like Thomas does for the Suns. Cole and Joseph are not major parts on their respective teams. I highly doubt they routinely jack up 15-20 shots a game like Thomas does.

[MrMiyagi]

By the way, Dragic, Bledsoe, Green, Bullcok, Wright, and Plumlee all have been on teams that made the playoffs. So I guess the Suns would not cut the entire team huh. In addition, I said name me a team that had a 5'9" player that played a major role on the team like Thomas does for the Suns. Cole and Joseph are not major parts on their respective teams. I highly doubt they routinely jack up 15-20 shots a game like Thomas does.

IT is averaging 10 shots per game......... Why are you acting like IT cannot play the game of basketball because he's short? 40% from 3 and 46% from 2 and 86% from the line is pretty damn fine.

[letsgosuns]

This article even proves my point about Dragic not being a shooting guard even more. http://www.azcentral.com/story/sports/n ... /22257127/ Look at these quotes:

["It was a big adjustment," Dragic said. "That put me in different situations. Before, I was guarding pick-and-roll. You got used to hitting the big guy on the side of the screen. Now, it's a different kind of defensive plan. Most of those guys are bigger, stronger, taller than me. Sometimes, it's hard but you just have to handle them."

In ESPN.com's defensive real-plus minus ratings, Dragic ranks in the bottom 20 of 103 shooting guards. Gerald Green is last.

On Friday night, Dragic started the game on Houston 6-foot-8 small forward Trevor Ariza because Suns small forward P.J. Tucker is more of the stopper for scorers like shooting guard James Harden. In Wednesday's game, Dragic covered Portland 6-foot-5, 220-pound shooting guard Wesley Matthews.]

So defensively Dragic ranks in the bottom 20 of 103 shooting guards? Explain to me how he is a top five shooting guard again. He isn't. He is much closer to a top five point point guard. That is what I keep saying. He is a point guard. At best he is a combo guard, not a pure shooting guard. That is the problem. Teams do not win championships by having two or three point guards as your best players playing out of position. It is unfair to Dragic. He should be running his own team and not guarding shooting guards. But he is not going to anymore on the Suns. He is going to leave. Trade him before he leaves and the Suns get nothing in return. You cannot win in this league with the way the Suns team is constructed.

[MrMiyagi]

You are skewing what I said so dramatically it is ridiculous. I said name me a 5'9" point guard who was a major piece on a championship team. I said how has Thomas proven to be a championship caliber bench player. The guy has been in the league for only a few years and has done nothing but be a good scorer okay. You are bringing up Nash and Kobe? What are you talking about. Cut the entire team now? You are going on some tirade about nothing relevant to what I said. Kobe being selfish? Duh. He is one of the most phenomenal scorers ever with dominant athleticism and also oh yeah, how many first team all NBA, All defense, all star game mvp's, and regular season mvp's has he won. Compare Thomas to Kobe when Thomas does anything like that. Kobe Bryant is a shooting guard. He is supposed to take a lot of shots. Isaiah Thomas is a point guard. He is supposed to pass the ball. Steve Nash did what a point guard is supposed to. Pass the ball. Create easy shots for teammates. That is the definition of a point guard.

I am wrong about the problem? No I am not. I have a different opinion than yours so you believe I am wrong. There is no right or wrong about anything involving this. Their is only opinion. You just said it yourself also. The Suns have borderline all stars. BORDERLINE. You want to pay a border line all star 15-18 million dollars a year? I sure do not. And also, how would the Suns be able to turn role players into stars? Who wants to trade their star for players for guys like the Morris brothers, Tucker, Plumlee, Green, or Thomas. No one.

By the way, here is an article about top 5 shooting guards this season. http://fansided.com/2015/01/23/top-5-nb ... -season/6/ Dragic ain't on there. Maybe he would have been last year. Not this year. Not even close this year. He is having a down year compared to last year.

According to ESPN's stats, Dragic is 8th among 2 guards in points, 2nd in FG%, 16th in rebounding, 18th in FTA, 19th in 3pt%, 8th in assists, 23rd in steals, and 6th for Double Doubles. As a point guard playing out of position, I'd say he's doing a damn fine job and is in the argument for top 5. Harden, Thompson and Butler are locks, Wade is probably 4th, Kobe shouldn't be in the discussion he's putting up terrible percentages. I'd say Dragic, Monta and Wesley Matthews are all acceptable answers for number 5.

[AtheJ415]

Thomas has proven to be good enough to be a bench player on a title team? Since when? He has never even been to the playoffs in his career. The only thing he has proven to me is that he has a low IQ. The opposite of what you need from a championship player. Sure he can score points in bunches but he is selfish which is the opposite of what you want from a point guard. Allen Iverson is best scoring little point guard of all time and the best he could possibly do is win one game in the NBA finals against that dominant Lakers team who were bigger than everyone (not a coincidence the biggest team wins the title).

I said earlier this season that the Suns best players are the point guards. That is the problem. The three best players all play the same position and also happen to be the smallest players on the team. It is the definition of redundancy. And Dragic might be 6'4", but he is not a shooting guard. Dwayne Wade is a 6'4" shooting guard. Regardless of athleticism, their games are nothing like each other because Dragic is a point guard and Wade is a shooting guard. I am sure you know how different their games are.

So Steve Nash I guess hasn't proven he can be the PG on a title team since he hasn't been to the finals? If the requirement for being a championship player is making the playoffs, then the Suns should cut basically the entire team right now. I can name countless NBA finals champion bench players who are worse than IT. That should be enough. For instance, Norris Cole was the backup PG for Miami. Corey Joseph for the Spurs. There isn't a person who objectively thinks either are better players.

Kobe has been crazy selfish during many years and he's won 5 titles as the 2nd best player on his team in most of them. I'm not saying he's anywhere close to a Kobe, but I am saying selfishness isn't a hinderance so long as you produce better than the unselfish guys from an efficiency perspective, and Isaiah does that. In fact, take Isaiah's assists per game and compare them to nba champion bench players and you'll see he's upper tier, and same goes for his FG% despite his shot selection.

You're just wrong about the problem. When you have 2 borderline stars and a bunch of solid to really good role players, you don't replace the borderline stars. Instead, you replace some of the solid to really good role players with stars, assuming you have the additional pieces to do so (which we do given draft picks and prospects) so that you end up with a star or 2 on top of the 2 borderline stars in your starting lineup. I'd agree if the league was hemorrhaging solid 2 guards, but it's a weak position. Style of play or not, Goran is a top 5 shooting guard in this league.

You are skewing what I said so dramatically it is ridiculous. I said name me a 5'9" point guard who was a major piece on a championship team. I said how has Thomas proven to be a championship caliber bench player. The guy has been in the league for only a few years and has done nothing but be a good scorer okay. You are bringing up Nash and Kobe? What are you talking about. Cut the entire team now? You are going on some tirade about nothing relevant to what I said. Kobe being selfish? Duh. He is one of the most phenomenal scorers ever with dominant athleticism and also oh yeah, how many first team all NBA, All defense, all star game mvp's, and regular season mvp's has he won. Compare Thomas to Kobe when Thomas does anything like that. Kobe Bryant is a shooting guard. He is supposed to take a lot of shots. Isaiah Thomas is a point guard. He is supposed to pass the ball. Steve Nash did what a point guard is supposed to. Pass the ball. Create easy shots for teammates. That is the definition of a point guard.

I am wrong about the problem? No I am not. I have a different opinion than yours so you believe I am wrong. There is no right or wrong about anything involving this. Their is only opinion. You just said it yourself also. The Suns have borderline all stars. BORDERLINE. You want to pay a border line all star 15-18 million dollars a year? I sure do not. And also, how would the Suns be able to turn role players into stars? Who wants to trade their star for players for guys like the Morris brothers, Tucker, Plumlee, Green, or Thomas. No one.

By the way, here is an article about top 5 shooting guards this season. http://fansided.com/2015/01/23/top-5-nb ... -season/6/ Dragic ain't on there. Maybe he would have been last year. Not this year. Not even close this year. He is having a down year compared to last year.

He was one of 4 players in the entire league to average 20 and 8 last year. One of 4. His stats also make him a frontrunner for 6th man of the year this year. I don't need any more justification than that to say he could be a bench player on a title team. Name me one high school dropout who started a computer company and was successful before people started actually doing it? The fact that it hasn't happened proves nothing about IT. Name me the last time a 5'9" PG started in the NBA and put up 20 and 8 at 24? 2 years ago you could've used your very same argument to say the season he had was impossible.

When someone advocates trading Goran Dragic for Joe Johnson in this day and age, there is a right and wrong, not a differing opinion. It's that bad.

That's because the general population still considers Dragic a PG, so why would he be on there? Just compare his numbers to theirs and what he did defensively while playing the 2 for us to what those guys did. Dragic's season last year was one that has statistically only happened about 7 times in the past 2 decades. And never quote some fan blogger with 37 twitter followers as an authority on anything. I can find a fan blog that will claim literally anything. Dragic is considered a top 60 trade asset in this league according to Bill Simmons, while Joe Johnson is universally considered one of the 5 worst contracts in the entire league. Goran was 3rd team all NBA last year and for the past 26 games has put up those same numbers.

[letsgosuns]

By the way, Dragic, Bledsoe, Green, Bullcok, Wright, and Plumlee all have been on teams that made the playoffs. So I guess the Suns would not cut the entire team huh. In addition, I said name me a team that had a 5'9" player that played a major role on the team like Thomas does for the Suns. Cole and Joseph are not major parts on their respective teams. I highly doubt they routinely jack up 15-20 shots a game like Thomas does.

IT is averaging 10 shots per game......... Why are you acting like IT cannot play the game of basketball because he's short? 40% from 3 and 46% from 2 and 86% from the line is pretty damn fine.

Ugh. Thomas is a great scorer. He just has an extremely low basketball IQ. I am strictly talking championship caliber players, not players in general. I also do not consider Carmelo Anthony a championship caliber player. Great scorer, but a selfish, one dimensional player that refuses to do what is necessary to take his team to the next level. George Karl even said that himself. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5U9WzE62xg

I look at Thomas the same way I look at Stephon Marbury. Great scoring point guards but are so selfish that they hurt the team in the end. Maybe they win some games now and then but overall, you will never win a title with them. Just how I feel. Thomas' height disadvantage makes it that much worse for me. Because the least he could do is be a good passer and unselfish which he is not.

[AtheJ415]

By the way, Dragic, Bledsoe, Green, Bullcok, Wright, and Plumlee all have been on teams that made the playoffs. So I guess the Suns would not cut the entire team huh. In addition, I said name me a team that had a 5'9" player that played a major role on the team like Thomas does for the Suns. Cole and Joseph are not major parts on their respective teams. I highly doubt they routinely jack up 15-20 shots a game like Thomas does.

IT is averaging 10 shots per game......... Why are you acting like IT cannot play the game of basketball because he's short? 40% from 3 and 46% from 2 and 86% from the line is pretty damn fine.

Ugh. Thomas is a great scorer. He just has an extremely low basketball IQ. I am strictly talking championship caliber players, not players in general. I also do not consider Carmelo Anthony a championship caliber player. Great scorer, but a selfish, one dimensional player that refuses to do what is necessary to take his team to the next level. George Karl even said that himself. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5U9WzE62xg

I look at Thomas the same way I look at Stephon Marbury. Great scoring point guards but are so selfish that they hurt the team in the end. Maybe they win some games now and then but overall, you will never win a title with them. Just how I feel. Thomas' height disadvantage makes it that much worse for me. Because the least he could do is be a good passer and unselfish which he is not.

When you are borderline 50/40/90, you hurt your time by passing up shots. His shot selection isn't great, but to say moving the ball more to guys like Gerald Green who are shooting much worse (hell, IT's shooting the best on the team right now, so really it's everyone) is winning basketball distorts how efficiently IT is scoring. Hogging the ball and jacking up shots hurts your team due to inefficient scoring. In IT's case though, that hasn't been the result. Knock his D, but to criticize his O right now is to ignore everything objective for the sake of your own opinion.

[AtheJ415]

By the way, Dragic, Bledsoe, Green, Bullcok, Wright, and Plumlee all have been on teams that made the playoffs. So I guess the Suns would not cut the entire team huh. In addition, I said name me a team that had a 5'9" player that played a major role on the team like Thomas does for the Suns. Cole and Joseph are not major parts on their respective teams. I highly doubt they routinely jack up 15-20 shots a game like Thomas does.

So not playing (Bullock, Plumlee) for a playoff team means you are a championship player. Got it.

If your only criteria is height, then yes IT isn't as good as Cole and Joseph. If you factor in how good they are at the actual game of basketball, then Cole and Joseph are not even in the same planet as IT. Cole and Joseph were the backup PGs for their teams. That is what IT is to us. The only reason he's "major" on our team is because he's BETTER THAN THEM. Cole and Joseph aren't good enough to be major parts of ANY team. You are using the fact that IT is better than his counterparts as a basis to say he's not a title caliber player relative to said counterparts. It's insane.

[MrMiyagi]

By the way, Dragic, Bledsoe, Green, Bullcok, Wright, and Plumlee all have been on teams that made the playoffs. So I guess the Suns would not cut the entire team huh. In addition, I said name me a team that had a 5'9" player that played a major role on the team like Thomas does for the Suns. Cole and Joseph are not major parts on their respective teams. I highly doubt they routinely jack up 15-20 shots a game like Thomas does.

IT is averaging 10 shots per game......... Why are you acting like IT cannot play the game of basketball because he's short? 40% from 3 and 46% from 2 and 86% from the line is pretty damn fine.

Ugh. Thomas is a great scorer. He just has an extremely low basketball IQ. I am strictly talking championship caliber players, not players in general. I also do not consider Carmelo Anthony a championship caliber player. Great scorer, but a selfish, one dimensional player that refuses to do what is necessary to take his team to the next level. George Karl even said that himself. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5U9WzE62xg

I look at Thomas the same way I look at Stephon Marbury. Great scoring point guards but are so selfish that they hurt the team in the end. Maybe they win some games now and then but overall, you will never win a title with them. Just how I feel. Thomas' height disadvantage makes it that much worse for me. Because the least he could do is be a good passer and unselfish which he is not.

But he's not our starter, he's a sixth man. Dallas had JET who is a similar player to IT and they won a championship...

[AtheJ415]

This article even proves my point about Dragic not being a shooting guard even more. http://www.azcentral.com/story/sports/n ... /22257127/ Look at these quotes:

["It was a big adjustment," Dragic said. "That put me in different situations. Before, I was guarding pick-and-roll. You got used to hitting the big guy on the side of the screen. Now, it's a different kind of defensive plan. Most of those guys are bigger, stronger, taller than me. Sometimes, it's hard but you just have to handle them."

In ESPN.com's defensive real-plus minus ratings, Dragic ranks in the bottom 20 of 103 shooting guards. Gerald Green is last.

On Friday night, Dragic started the game on Houston 6-foot-8 small forward Trevor Ariza because Suns small forward P.J. Tucker is more of the stopper for scorers like shooting guard James Harden. In Wednesday's game, Dragic covered Portland 6-foot-5, 220-pound shooting guard Wesley Matthews.]

So defensively Dragic ranks in the bottom 20 of 103 shooting guards? Explain to me how he is a top five shooting guard again. He isn't. He is much closer to a top five point point guard. That is what I keep saying. He is a point guard. At best he is a combo guard, not a pure shooting guard. That is the problem. Teams do not win championships by having two or three point guards as your best players playing out of position. It is unfair to Dragic. He should be running his own team and not guarding shooting guards. But he is not going to anymore on the Suns. He is going to leave. Trade him before he leaves and the Suns get nothing in return. You cannot win in this league with the way the Suns team is constructed.

I don't have the energy to respond to this crap, and I doubt the board appreciates the circularity, so I'll ignore all of this just to say that trading him for Joe Johnson is worse than trading him for just about anyone else. In fact, hanging a bottom 5 contract on our backs for another year and throwing in a bunch of other talent to salary match is worse than simply letting him walk. If you really believe that, let him walk.

James Harden was the worst defender in basketball last year. He was also 1st team all nba. Why? Because he was dominant offensively. You're ignoring Dragic's elite offensive efficiency numbers entirely. He put up a Larry Bird-esque efficiency season. Most of the other players who did that in the past 2 decades (Dirk, Durant, Lebron) won the MVP in the year in which they did it.

[letsgosuns]

So Steve Nash I guess hasn't proven he can be the PG on a title team since he hasn't been to the finals? If the requirement for being a championship player is making the playoffs, then the Suns should cut basically the entire team right now. I can name countless NBA finals champion bench players who are worse than IT. That should be enough. For instance, Norris Cole was the backup PG for Miami. Corey Joseph for the Spurs. There isn't a person who objectively thinks either are better players.

Kobe has been crazy selfish during many years and he's won 5 titles as the 2nd best player on his team in most of them. I'm not saying he's anywhere close to a Kobe, but I am saying selfishness isn't a hinderance so long as you produce better than the unselfish guys from an efficiency perspective, and Isaiah does that. In fact, take Isaiah's assists per game and compare them to nba champion bench players and you'll see he's upper tier, and same goes for his FG% despite his shot selection.

You're just wrong about the problem. When you have 2 borderline stars and a bunch of solid to really good role players, you don't replace the borderline stars. Instead, you replace some of the solid to really good role players with stars, assuming you have the additional pieces to do so (which we do given draft picks and prospects) so that you end up with a star or 2 on top of the 2 borderline stars in your starting lineup. I'd agree if the league was hemorrhaging solid 2 guards, but it's a weak position. Style of play or not, Goran is a top 5 shooting guard in this league.

You are skewing what I said so dramatically it is ridiculous. I said name me a 5'9" point guard who was a major piece on a championship team. I said how has Thomas proven to be a championship caliber bench player. The guy has been in the league for only a few years and has done nothing but be a good scorer okay. You are bringing up Nash and Kobe? What are you talking about. Cut the entire team now? You are going on some tirade about nothing relevant to what I said. Kobe being selfish? Duh. He is one of the most phenomenal scorers ever with dominant athleticism and also oh yeah, how many first team all NBA, All defense, all star game mvp's, and regular season mvp's has he won. Compare Thomas to Kobe when Thomas does anything like that. Kobe Bryant is a shooting guard. He is supposed to take a lot of shots. Isaiah Thomas is a point guard. He is supposed to pass the ball. Steve Nash did what a point guard is supposed to. Pass the ball. Create easy shots for teammates. That is the definition of a point guard.

I am wrong about the problem? No I am not. I have a different opinion than yours so you believe I am wrong. There is no right or wrong about anything involving this. Their is only opinion. You just said it yourself also. The Suns have borderline all stars. BORDERLINE. You want to pay a border line all star 15-18 million dollars a year? I sure do not. And also, how would the Suns be able to turn role players into stars? Who wants to trade their star for players for guys like the Morris brothers, Tucker, Plumlee, Green, or Thomas. No one.

By the way, here is an article about top 5 shooting guards this season. http://fansided.com/2015/01/23/top-5-nb ... -season/6/ Dragic ain't on there. Maybe he would have been last year. Not this year. Not even close this year. He is having a down year compared to last year.

He was one of 4 players in the entire league to average 20 and 8 last year. One of 4. His stats also make him a frontrunner for 6th man of the year this year. I don't need any more justification than that to say he could be a bench player on a title team. Name me one high school dropout who started a computer company and was successful before people started actually doing it? The fact that it hasn't happened proves nothing about IT. Name me the last time a 5'9" PG started in the NBA and put up 20 and 8 at 24? 2 years ago you could've used your very same argument to say the season he had was impossible.

When someone advocates trading Goran Dragic for Joe Johnson in this day and age, there is a right and wrong, not a differing opinion. It's that bad.

That's because the general population still considers Dragic a PG, so why would he be on there? Just compare his numbers to theirs and what he did defensively while playing the 2 for us to what those guys did. Dragic's season last year was one that has statistically only happened about 7 times in the past 2 decades. And never quote some fan blogger with 37 twitter followers as an authority on anything. I can find a fan blog that will claim literally anything. Dragic is considered a top 60 trade asset in this league according to Bill Simmons, while Joe Johnson is universally considered one of the 5 worst contracts in the entire league. Goran was 3rd team all NBA last year and for the past 26 games has put up those same numbers.

Read the AZcentral article I just posted. Goes to show why I do not consider Dragic a shooting guard. He even said himself it is hard for him to guard other shooting guards. And no there is not a right or wrong about trading Goran Dragic for Joe Johnson. I would do it. You would not. Seriously, how the hell is it that bad. They average virtually the exact same statistics. Look:

Dragic: 16.7 PPG 3.6 RPG 4.0 APG 77.1% FT 51.2% FG 34.8% 3P% 33 MPG
Johnson: 15.7 PPG 4.7 RPG 3.8 APG 80.8% FT 42.7% FG 36.4% 3P% 35.7 MPG

Those stats nearly identical. The only difference is overall field goal percentage. Sure Dragic is younger and is in his prime right now while Johnson is past his prime. However, like I keep saying, Dragic is a point guard on a team that is overloaded with point guards and is most likely going to leave as a free agent. Johnson is a 6'7" true shooting guard and the Suns team lacks a reliable shooting guard that can guard other shooting guards. So again, you might not agree with the trade, but that is your opinion, not a fact. Dragic was all NBA last year. This year he has had a major drop off. He also has zero all star appearances. Joe Johnson was all nba one time but he also has made seven all star games, including last year.

[AtheJ415]

IT is averaging 10 shots per game......... Why are you acting like IT cannot play the game of basketball because he's short? 40% from 3 and 46% from 2 and 86% from the line is pretty damn fine.

Ugh. Thomas is a great scorer. He just has an extremely low basketball IQ. I am strictly talking championship caliber players, not players in general. I also do not consider Carmelo Anthony a championship caliber player. Great scorer, but a selfish, one dimensional player that refuses to do what is necessary to take his team to the next level. George Karl even said that himself. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5U9WzE62xg

I look at Thomas the same way I look at Stephon Marbury. Great scoring point guards but are so selfish that they hurt the team in the end. Maybe they win some games now and then but overall, you will never win a title with them. Just how I feel. Thomas' height disadvantage makes it that much worse for me. Because the least he could do is be a good passer and unselfish which he is not.

But he's not our starter, he's a sixth man. Dallas had JET who is a similar player to IT and they won a championship...

Not allowed. JET isn't 5'9" so he doesn't count. See, he's created an impossible position to argue against because Isaiah is probably the best sub-5'9" player ever, and since no sub 5'9" player has won a title, he can claim IT's not a championship player. Just like I could've said agile bigs as opposed to throwback brutes have never dominated in the 90s before Hakeem. It's impossible to be wrong because he won't allow you to mention how good they actually are at the game of basketball, and stats don't matter either. All he needs is height and his opinion of his playing style.

[MrMiyagi]

Joe Johnson is making 23 and 24 million dollars for this season and next. Why the hell would you trade for that contract?

[AtheJ415]

You are skewing what I said so dramatically it is ridiculous. I said name me a 5'9" point guard who was a major piece on a championship team. I said how has Thomas proven to be a championship caliber bench player. The guy has been in the league for only a few years and has done nothing but be a good scorer okay. You are bringing up Nash and Kobe? What are you talking about. Cut the entire team now? You are going on some tirade about nothing relevant to what I said. Kobe being selfish? Duh. He is one of the most phenomenal scorers ever with dominant athleticism and also oh yeah, how many first team all NBA, All defense, all star game mvp's, and regular season mvp's has he won. Compare Thomas to Kobe when Thomas does anything like that. Kobe Bryant is a shooting guard. He is supposed to take a lot of shots. Isaiah Thomas is a point guard. He is supposed to pass the ball. Steve Nash did what a point guard is supposed to. Pass the ball. Create easy shots for teammates. That is the definition of a point guard.

I am wrong about the problem? No I am not. I have a different opinion than yours so you believe I am wrong. There is no right or wrong about anything involving this. Their is only opinion. You just said it yourself also. The Suns have borderline all stars. BORDERLINE. You want to pay a border line all star 15-18 million dollars a year? I sure do not. And also, how would the Suns be able to turn role players into stars? Who wants to trade their star for players for guys like the Morris brothers, Tucker, Plumlee, Green, or Thomas. No one.

By the way, here is an article about top 5 shooting guards this season. http://fansided.com/2015/01/23/top-5-nb ... -season/6/ Dragic ain't on there. Maybe he would have been last year. Not this year. Not even close this year. He is having a down year compared to last year.

He was one of 4 players in the entire league to average 20 and 8 last year. One of 4. His stats also make him a frontrunner for 6th man of the year this year. I don't need any more justification than that to say he could be a bench player on a title team. Name me one high school dropout who started a computer company and was successful before people started actually doing it? The fact that it hasn't happened proves nothing about IT. Name me the last time a 5'9" PG started in the NBA and put up 20 and 8 at 24? 2 years ago you could've used your very same argument to say the season he had was impossible.

When someone advocates trading Goran Dragic for Joe Johnson in this day and age, there is a right and wrong, not a differing opinion. It's that bad.

That's because the general population still considers Dragic a PG, so why would he be on there? Just compare his numbers to theirs and what he did defensively while playing the 2 for us to what those guys did. Dragic's season last year was one that has statistically only happened about 7 times in the past 2 decades. And never quote some fan blogger with 37 twitter followers as an authority on anything. I can find a fan blog that will claim literally anything. Dragic is considered a top 60 trade asset in this league according to Bill Simmons, while Joe Johnson is universally considered one of the 5 worst contracts in the entire league. Goran was 3rd team all NBA last year and for the past 26 games has put up those same numbers.

Read the AZcentral article I just posted. Goes to show why I do not consider Dragic a shooting guard. He even said himself it is hard for him to guard other shooting guards. And no there is not a right or wrong about trading Goran Dragic for Joe Johnson. I would do it. You would not. Seriously, how the hell is it that bad. They average virtually the exact same statistics. Look:

Dragic: 16.7 PPG 3.6 RPG 4.0 APG 77.1% FT 51.2% FG 34.8% 3P% 33 MPG
Johnson: 15.7 PPG 4.7 RPG 3.8 APG 80.8% FT 42.7% FG 36.4% 3P% 35.7 MPG

Those stats nearly identical. The only difference is overall field goal percentage. Sure Dragic is younger and is in his prime right now while Johnson is past his prime. However, like I keep saying, Dragic is a point guard on a team that is overloaded with point guards and is most likely going to leave as a free agent. Johnson is a 6'7" true shooting guard and the Suns team lacks a reliable shooting guard that can guard other shooting guards. So again, you might not agree with the trade, but that is your opinion, not a fact. Dragic was all NBA last year. This year he has had a major drop off. He also has zero all star appearances. Joe Johnson was all nba one time but he also has made seven all star games, including last year.

I won't read your article. I'm going to go do something else. This will be my last post on this subject. The fact that you think a 10% difference in FG% is nearly identical shows all I need. Also, you should look at the trend in those numbers. Dragic, for the past nearly 30 games, has rebounded from his slow start and is matching last year's 51/41/76 percentages on 20, 6, 3. Given that trend and what Dragic has done over the more relevant, larger sample size of the past 1.5 seasons, the only thing Joe has on Dragic in the offensive arsenal is a slightly better FT% and 1 more RPG in 2 more MPG. Not to mention Joe gets to play most of his games against the East, so he's putting up worse numbers against worse competition.

[AtheJ415]

Joe Johnson is making 23 and 24 million dollars for this season and next. Why the hell would you trade for that contract?

He's also 33 years old!