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Jeff Hornacek Fired

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Re: Jeff Hornacek Fired 

Post#181 » by bwgood77 » Tue Feb 2, 2016 1:56 am

LukasBMW wrote:It's interesting to note that I got an email last week from the Suns ticket sale team offering me free tickets to an upcoming game (I think it was Toronto?)

I wonder if Sarver saw the already low ticket sales plummeting and freaked out. LOL.

Didn't Sarver buy the Suns for 550 million? Aren't they now estimated to be worth just over a billion?

He can double his money in just over 10 years. I hope he takes the money and walks away.


I thought he bought them for $400 million.

Article by Paola Boivin, who usually has good takes...

He was set up to fail, starting with the decision to award him lame-duck status by allowing him to enter the 2015-16 season in the final year of his contract.

That’s not just about Hornacek. It’s about players who know their coach is not highly regarded by management, and who inevitably lack the passion to play for him.

Then came roster turnover that included trading Marcus Morris and keeping his twin brother, the disgruntled Markieff. The lack of foresight about the impending implosion complicated the quest of chemistry and cohesion.

It was the latest in a bizarre turn of events that saw even well-regarded players rip the organization on the way out.

If Goran Dragic is bad-mouthing you, something is amiss.

And it’s not as if a run of injuries was Hornacek’s fault.

He didn’t tear Eric Bledsoe’s meniscus. He didn’t aggravate Tyson Chandler’s hamstring.

And all those assistant coaches who were chased away during his reign? Those were orders that came from elsewhere.

He was not placed in an environment to succeed. He was put in one designed to fail.


http://www.azcentral.com/story/sports/nba/suns/2016/02/01/boivin-suns-fire-hornacek-scapegoat-nba-eric-bledsoe-paul-coro/79658202/
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Re: Jeff Hornacek Fired 

Post#182 » by GMATCallahan » Tue Feb 2, 2016 2:25 am

bwgood77 wrote:
GMATCallahan wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
So I guess you are in the know, or are you speculating? So you think they want to compete and win as much as possible the rest of the season?


... either that or they had developed a prearranged plan when they fired the assistants: we will give Hornacek one more month.

But how about allowing for the fact that all of Hornacek's veteran guards went down in the interim, basically leaving him with a collegiate back-court, not to mention a total absence of starting-caliber forwards. And what about the fact that Sarver should want to compete for the worst record in the NBA in order to receive the most ping-pong balls possible? Firing Hornacek now, as opposed to either around Christmas time or after the season, really makes no sense.

The other theory that I have read in situations such as this one is that the owner fears that all the losing, and the apparent acceptance of it, will hurt the renewal of season tickets for the following year. Thus, the theory goes, if management fires the coach and sparks the team to a few more wins, or at least shows that losing will not be tolerated, more fans and corporations will sense that ownership is committed to winning and will renew their season tickets. But you are never going to build your team properly if you are trying to calculate commercial matters so narrowly and defensively. It is called, "Penny-wise, pound-foolish."

... except that it may not even be "penny-wise."


Good points. I became neutral on Hornacek staying or going in late December and expected him gone (if he was to be fired) in time for them to potentially turn things around. Clearly that is a far fetched goal, so they should have let him finish out the season. If you fire a coach in the season due to the team playing poorly, it is typically done earlier to try and salvage the season. In the Cavs case, it doesn't matter as much because they are at the top of the conference anyway.

It just makes ownership look even more dysfunctional and classless. It's just amazing Sarver has driven away in a bad manner, Jerry and Brian Colangelo, Kerr, D'Antoni, Gentry, Griffin, etc. I mean no one is ever going to be happy about being fired (though Hornacek is probably relieved since he knew he was gone anyway) but you can at least do so as respectfully as posssible. To let him coach out the contract made the most sense in many respects, and especially if you want to get a high pick.


Yeah, I mean, this situation was not analogous to January 1996, when Jerry Colangelo fired Paul Westphal. You do not have veteran players such as Charles Barkley, Kevin Johnson, Danny Manning, the late John "Hot Rod" Williams (although all four of those guys were in the injured list when Colangelo relieved Westphal), A.C. Green, the late Wayman Tisdale, and Joe Kleine. You do not have major and elite veteran talent that renders the remainder of the season vital and that induces you to change coaches if the incumbent seems to be losing his grip. (And even then, Colangelo fired Westphal after 33 games, not after 49 games.) Nor is the situation even analogous to that from 2009 when Phoenix featured Steve Nash, Amar'e Stoudemire, Grant Hill, Shaquille O'Neal, Jason Richardson, and Leandro Barbosa and needed try and win right away. Instead, the 2016 Suns were in the opposite situation by this January: their goal should have been to develop young players, accept losses temporarily, and play for the highest possible draft pick. In essence, Phoenix needed to be functioning like an expansion franchise.

Allowing Hornacek to finish his contract would have been both a sign of respect and a smart strategic move given that the Suns should want to pile up as many losses as possible. In effect, you would killed two birds with one stone and then could have let Hornacek go after the year in a respectful manner that no one would have seriously quibbled with. Also, as I noted earlier, what head coach other than Hornacek would have been better for Devin Booker—a young, slightly undersized shooting guard (forget the 6'6" listed height, which seems way off) with intelligence, a pure shooting stroke, and some passing ability, one who runs off down-screens that he can also turn into pick-and-rolls, and who can run some straight pick-and-rolls as well? For, more or less, that was Hornacek as a player. Booker was progressing nicely, so the Suns should have let Hornacek keep working with him through the remainder of the year.
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Re: Jeff Hornacek Fired 

Post#183 » by GMATCallahan » Tue Feb 2, 2016 2:30 am

LukasBMW wrote:It's interesting to note that I got an email last week from the Suns ticket sale team offering me free tickets to an upcoming game (I think it was Toronto?)

I wonder if Sarver saw the already low ticket sales plummeting and freaked out. LOL.

Didn't Sarver buy the Suns for 550 million? Aren't they now estimated to be worth just over a billion?

He can double his money in just over 10 years. I hope he takes the money and walks away.


I really would not be surprised if the concern over ticket sales, and especially the renewal of season tickets, played a major role here.
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Re: Jeff Hornacek Fired 

Post#184 » by TeamTragic » Tue Feb 2, 2016 3:23 am

letsgosuns wrote:Gambo just said he got a text from one player on the Suns that said exactly "everything is so (blanked) up it could not get any worse."

What a disaster.

This team is not only the worst team in the league on the court, they might be the worst run team in the league as well. This is insane. This is the Phoenix Suns we are talking about. THE PHOENIX SUNS! What the hell happened. Ugh this is beyond sad. Idk what to say anymore about this organization.


Welcome to your Phoenix Suns! :noway: :noway: :noway: :noway:
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Re: Jeff Hornacek Fired 

Post#185 » by alldayeveryday » Tue Feb 2, 2016 3:29 am

LukasBMW wrote:It's interesting to note that I got an email last week from the Suns ticket sale team offering me free tickets to an upcoming game (I think it was Toronto?)

I wonder if Sarver saw the already low ticket sales plummeting and freaked out. LOL.

Didn't Sarver buy the Suns for 550 million? Aren't they now estimated to be worth just over a billion?

He can double his money in just over 10 years. I hope he takes the money and walks away.


They called me beginning of the season. Mind you I live in the Bay Area for work. I told the gentleman, I'll buy season tickets the day Sarver leaves the organization. The person on the other end was in some type of training because I could hear the person training him give a little laugh and say "I know, right?".
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Re: Jeff Hornacek Fired 

Post#186 » by Mulhollanddrive » Tue Feb 2, 2016 3:53 am

Conbuilding since 2010, with no All-Stars, no playoffs and only getting high picks accidentally by being so bad.
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Re: Jeff Hornacek Fired 

Post#187 » by enigmatics » Tue Feb 2, 2016 4:08 am

ginobiliflops wrote:How I feel Image


Shows what kind of fan you are. Enjoying this turd of a franchise right now and turning a blind eye towards the absolute embarrassment the FO is causing. You probably thought Steve Nash would come in and coach. :lol:
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Re: Jeff Hornacek Fired 

Post#188 » by enigmatics » Tue Feb 2, 2016 4:12 am

bwgood77 wrote:Well the best course of action was to do it this morning and meet with him, followed by a meeting with the players. Wouldn't surprise me if the players still haven't been contacted.

I mean, firing someone in the middle of the night right after they get off the flight?

None of it matters that much, but it just shows a lack of class.


I guess McDouchebag forgot that Jeff Hornacek was beloved around here as a player and was a major part of our quasi-glory days. He deserved way more respect than he got from that twat of a GM/Ownership combo.
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Re: Jeff Hornacek Fired 

Post#189 » by saintEscaton » Tue Feb 2, 2016 4:13 am

Wonder which HC candidates we've got lined up, hopefully they have a track record of NBA success and a pedigree to instill us with an identity. We're gonna have a shortage of suitors, beggars can't be choosers
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Re: Jeff Hornacek Fired 

Post#190 » by DirtyDez » Tue Feb 2, 2016 4:27 am

enigmatics wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:Well the best course of action was to do it this morning and meet with him, followed by a meeting with the players. Wouldn't surprise me if the players still haven't been contacted.

I mean, firing someone in the middle of the night right after they get off the flight?

None of it matters that much, but it just shows a lack of class.


I guess McDouchebag forgot that Jeff Hornacek was beloved around here as a player and was a major part of our quasi-glory days. He deserved way more respect than he got from that twat of a GM/Ownership combo.


He definitely deserved more respect but it shouldn't have anything to do with being a former Sun. At the time I was very nervous of Sarver/Babby going after the sentimental hire in Hornecek. Now there is word of Sarver reaching out to Nash? Enough of this glorification of the past bull****.
fromthetop321 wrote:I got Lebron number 1, he is also leading defensive player of the year. Curry's game still reminds me of Jeremy Lin to much.
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Re: Jeff Hornacek Fired 

Post#191 » by saintEscaton » Tue Feb 2, 2016 4:29 am

If we're seriously going after Thunder Dan I might have to renounce my fandom
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Re: Jeff Hornacek Fired 

Post#192 » by Mulhollanddrive » Tue Feb 2, 2016 5:15 am

Bob Hill is known for the time he spent developing former NBA prospect Jeremy Tyler, who spent time in Japan with Hill before he was eligible for the NBA draft.

---------------

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Re: Jeff Hornacek Fired 

Post#193 » by GMATCallahan » Tue Feb 2, 2016 6:06 am

enigmatics wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:Well the best course of action was to do it this morning and meet with him, followed by a meeting with the players. Wouldn't surprise me if the players still haven't been contacted.

I mean, firing someone in the middle of the night right after they get off the flight?

None of it matters that much, but it just shows a lack of class.


I guess McDouchebag forgot that Jeff Hornacek was beloved around here as a player and was a major part of our quasi-glory days. He deserved way more respect than he got from that twat of a GM/Ownership combo.


... yup.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8dD12wxbrM][/youtube]

Remember how Dan Majerle unceremoniously departed three years ago, too; now add Jeff Hornacek to the list.

Of course, needless to say, having been a terrific player for the Suns during arguably the most successful era in franchise history does not entitle one to continued employment in a coaching role or a promotion on the coach staff. The question, though, is whether these decisions that ousted Hornacek and, in effect, Majerle represented a proper handling of people, at least given the timing and surrounding circumstances. When people are not handled properly, and those people also happen to possess a radiant history with the franchise and the community, then that mishandling only highlights management's flaws and further undermines its credibility.
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Re: Jeff Hornacek Fired 

Post#194 » by AtheJ415 » Tue Feb 2, 2016 7:31 am

ginobiliflops wrote:I'm very surprised to see people up in arms over this.


It's fine to think Jeff is a good coach. It's fine to wish he had stayed. But anybody claiming after all of this that Jeff somehow didn't deserve to be fired is out of their mind. Jeff has been absolutely awful this year. Across the board. I'd rate him as tied with Tyson for our 2nd worst performer on the season, both behind only Markieff. His rotations, system, ability to deal with people, situational decisionmaking...all of it was garbage. He's been much better in the past when it comes to the X's and O's aspects, but he's never been good managing people and that's a huge part of coaching.

I can't honestly imagine a lineup that is talented enough but so devoid of egos that Jeff could coach it to a title. We'd need just overwhelming talent to such an extent that nothing else matters. Jeff can be a very good coach some day, but he has a lot to learn and hasn't shown real improvement in a ton of key areas. Stop blaming the hand he was dealt. Judge him given the hand he was dealt, and he still failed in epic fashion this season.
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Re: Jeff Hornacek Fired 

Post#195 » by garrick » Tue Feb 2, 2016 8:56 am

Wasn't Sarver despised by most of the NBA owners?

He just comes across as a major douche and he seems to be careful these days to protect his image in public but behind the scenes he's probably just as bad if not worse.

Lets hope all the losing and low ticket sales forces him to sell to a decent owner because I don't see how the losing culture can change with him as the owner.
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Re: Jeff Hornacek Fired 

Post#196 » by Saberestar » Tue Feb 2, 2016 12:20 pm

enigmatics wrote:
ginobiliflops wrote:How I feel Image


Shows what kind of fan you are. Enjoying this turd of a franchise right now and turning a blind eye towards the absolute embarrassment the FO is causing. You probably thought Steve Nash would come in and coach. :lol:

Do you prefer people with depression?

We have now the oportunity to see another coach working with these guys...a little hope to see an improvement and positioning ourselves better prepared for next season.
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Re: Jeff Hornacek Fired 

Post#197 » by RaisingArizona » Tue Feb 2, 2016 12:27 pm

bwgood77 wrote:
ginobiliflops wrote:How I feel Image


YES! Maybe we can squeeze a few more wins out now!


I'm excited to have a guy on the sidelines who won't just shrug his shoulder when we completely fall apart on the court. I think this team needs a coach with more enthusiasm.
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Re: Jeff Hornacek Fired 

Post#198 » by Donald_Trade » Tue Feb 2, 2016 12:54 pm

I can't believe how many people are willing to give Hornacek a free pass here, there are so many things that point in Hornacek's direction. Plus the local media trying to paint this picture of Hornacek being set up to fail. I am not saying Hornacek is the MAIN reason for our struggles but he at least played a big part in it.

1. Hornacek lost control of the locker room a long time ago and likely the respect of his players. Evidence is the trouble last season, especially with Marcus Morris shouting at him.

2. Hornacek has in the past openly said that it is not his job to be a leader and that the players must step up. Hornacek is a coach that lets players to their thing which is not a good thing with a young rebuilding team.

3. Hornacek is always sarcastic, he does not seem very inspirational. This might work for Popovic but again doubtful this is a good approach with young players on a rebuilding team.

4. After three years you can't see any structure in our offense or even defense. Do not give me the excuse that our players are low IQ. That has nothing to do with the fact that the Suns hardly seem to run any plays or regularly botch plays completely after timeouts.

5. No stability in lineups. How many lineup changes did Hornacek make? Did he really develop young guys? Based on what we saw from Warren before the development is slower than expected and Hornacek benches him for mistakes. Alex Len has not developed as expected either.

6. The dual PG lineups are clearly Hornacek's idea. There is no way that McDonough makes strategic decisions of how the Suns play. By all accounts Hornacek was always involved in personnel decisions. Plus Hornacek stuck with that idea even when Bledsoe or Knight were not available by playing Price instead.

7. Brandon Knight was very high on the Jazz wishlist in the 2011 draft at #3 when they opted for Kanter instead. Hornacek was a full time assistant with the Jazz at the time. It is not too far fetched to think that Hornacek played a role in trading Isaiah Thomas and targeting Knight as a replacement for Dragic.
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Re: Jeff Hornacek Fired 

Post#199 » by Saberestar » Tue Feb 2, 2016 1:09 pm

The Suns roster is still built for Hornacek’s two-playmaker system with the highest-paid players being Bledsoe and Knight, who are worth 40 missing points and 11 missing assists per game. The good intentions of a dual-point guard system attacking mismatches did not take hold and a coaching change puts its future in question, especially with turnover issues and the emergence of a traditional shooting guard and fan favorite, Devin Booker.

Bledsoe missed 39 games in 2013-14. Adding Isaiah Thomas gave Hornacek a role-defining, minute-dividing nightmare in 2014-15. The Bledsoe-Knight pairing did not take off in 2015-16 to the point that Hornacek tried Knight off the bench once.

This season’s disappointment was partly set up by Hornacek’s lame-duck contact status and the offseason saga of Markieff Morris, a player who entered the season without the mindset or form that Hornacek needed for success.

http://www.azcentral.com/story/sports/nba/suns/2016/02/01/coach-swap-earl-watson-signals-change-setting-suns/79671656/

It seems that we can finally go away of that 2 PG system.
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Re: Jeff Hornacek Fired 

Post#200 » by MathiasPW » Tue Feb 2, 2016 1:11 pm

Donald_Trade wrote:I can't believe how many people are willing to give Hornacek a free pass here, there are so many things that point in Hornacek's direction. Plus the local media trying to paint this picture of Hornacek being set up to fail. I am not saying Hornacek is the MAIN reason for our struggles but he at least played a big part in it.

1. Hornacek lost control of the locker room a long time ago and likely the respect of his players. Evidence is the trouble last season, especially with Marcus Morris shouting at him.

2. Hornacek has in the past openly said that it is not his job to be a leader and that the players must step up. Hornacek is a coach that lets players to their thing which is not a good thing with a young rebuilding team.

3. Hornacek is always sarcastic, he does not seem very inspirational. This might work for Popovic but again doubtful this is a good approach with young players on a rebuilding team.

4. After three years you can't see any structure in our offense or even defense. Do not give me the excuse that our players are low IQ. That has nothing to do with the fact that the Suns hardly seem to run any plays or regularly botch plays completely after timeouts.

5. No stability in lineups. How many lineup changes did Hornacek make? Did he really develop young guys? Based on what we saw from Warren before the development is slower than expected and Hornacek benches him for mistakes. Alex Len has not developed as expected either.

6. The dual PG lineups are clearly Hornacek's idea. There is no way that McDonough makes strategic decisions of how the Suns play. By all accounts Hornacek was always involved in personnel decisions. Plus Hornacek stuck with that idea even when Bledsoe or Knight were not available by playing Price instead.

7. Brandon Knight was very high on the Jazz wishlist in the 2011 draft at #3 when they opted for Kanter instead. Hornacek was a full time assistant with the Jazz at the time. It is not too far fetched to think that Hornacek played a role in trading Isaiah Thomas and targeting Knight as a replacement for Dragic.


Welcome new poster.

Not trying to discourage you, but several of your points above are not true, or distorted. While it is true that he has lost the locker room (not completely his fault...it's the millenials!!) and that we still lack structure in offense in defense (also not completely his fault....very high roster turnover and assistant turnover in the last 3 years), the rest is a bit forced.
Hornacek is a very positive and chilled guy. Not sarcastic at all, to be honest. You can blame him for being soft on mistakes, but sarcastic is not his style. Source: any interview from the past 3 years.
Dual PG thingie is something the GM was drooling over. They hired Hornacek specifically because his basketball mind was very alligned to Ryan's (and allegedly Sarver's).
Stability in lineups is desireable, but difficult when you have so much youth and roster turnover that every 6 months you must redesign your system. And then all the injuries this year...
On leadership, he said there is only so much you can do from the sidelines, you really need the guys on the court to call plays and defensive assignments (I remember that interview when they hired Chandler, and he pointed that out as one of the reasons for the signing). That is different from saying it's not his job to be a leader.
And on trading for Knight, I honestly don't have a clue (and neither does any of us) if he influenced that. He for sure had a saying on it, but that's all we really know.
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