Season Speculation, Trade Ideas & Discussion 3: About Last Knight

[bwgood77]

Which is crazy, how are teams loaded with non-talented players like Kyrie, Love, LeBron, Curry, Thompson, Green, and Durant having any success? I cant believe the Warriors were able to sustain the loss of an all time great coach in Luke Walton and have Kerr step in and not miss a beat.

Seems weird to just sarcastically dismiss Bwgood's post like that.

You do know that Griffin is the man responsible for drafting/signing/trading for players such as Kyrie, Love, Thompson, JR Smith, Shumpert, Dellavdova etc who all played key roles in them winning the title last season?

And the Warriors were a joke of a franchise before Kerr got there. Curry was their only "all star caliber" player while Draymond was a nobody and Klay was seen as a Kyle Korver type player and that's it.

Kerr turned the All Star Curry into Superstar and MVP Curry and turned Mr. Nobody Draymond Green who was a 2nd rd pick into a DPOY candidate and All Star and Klay Thomson into a lockdown defender and All Star as well.

I won't even mention the job he did in developing Harrison Barnes and helping him land a max contract and into a player that's playing excellent for Dallas right now. Also for resurrecting Shaun Livingston's career.

So then does Griffin get the blame for being completely awful before LeBron returned and pushed them to acquire Love?
Kyrie 1/1 draft pick.
Love acquired for a 1/1 draft pick.
JR Smith, TT, Shump are LeBrons guys, thats why they are there. That team lives and dies with LeBron.

Lets not act like Kerr didnt take over a team that just won 50 games the previous season. The Warriors were on the upswing, Curry put up like 25/8. I dont know any scouting reports that said Thompson was just a Kyle Korver type, none. Green wasnt a starter when Kerr took over, but he worked his way there. Giving Kerr credit for players improving into their primes is totally minimizing the work they put in to get better. That team was a juggernaut when Kerr was out, didnt miss a beat.

I think it was a juggernaut when Kerr was out because he set everything up...to where it could self sustain. It was the system. He clearly took them to another level.

I get your argument to some extent as I used to use it often when calling Phil Jackson the best coach ever, etc, but clearly Kerr made a significant impact there. Sure, he has the talent, and I can appreciate what a guy like Carlisle does more...who squeezes more out of less, but the whole point was, to keep churning our GMs hasn't always worked well, and many we let go end up doing better elsewhere with more experience (but sure...having superstars doesn't hurt).

Same goes for most of the players we let go...they end up getting rings or getting to playoffs before ours do...most of the starting caliber players we have traded over the last couple of years are playing really well for their teams now.

Change for the sake of changes hasn't worked too well ever since Sarver bought the team.

[bhawk]

That's it. I'm pulling up posts from the day the IT trade happened. We'll see what those people said at the time.

I know I wasn't a fan of his and still am not a fan. He's far better than Knight of course, but not a huge fan of either's game. Perfect 6th man though. I'm not even sure Boston would love him as much if they didn't have Brooklyn's pick.

Because I think if IT is your best player, you're probably not going to go extremely far in the playoffs. I wasn't a big fan of Iverson, for example, either though. But obviously IT is having an insane offensive season with an excellent TS% and is playing better than AI did even in his MVP year, though of course, his defense is abysmal.

Exactly! You take away that Brooklyn Pick and Boston suddenly becomes very mediocre. Thomas can put up all the eye popping stats on offense he wants, but he is not going to be sustainable in leading his team deep into the playoffs, especially if he is the best player on the roster.

Though to be honest, the Suns are doing the same thing with Eric Bledsoe. The problem is he is not good enough to even get us into the playoffs, and our front office is either too dumb, too stubborn, or both, to see it.

I recently watched a few Boston games and the atmosphere is amazing when IT comes into the game. He creates his own shot and doesn't miss in the 4th quarter. IT is the real deal in Boston and Ainge is going to have HELL to pay if he doesn't resign the guy.

Come to think of it... with the emergence of IT, Ainge may not want to draft one of the franchise guards - Fultz, Ball, Smith.

I wasn't in love with IT, but I didn't hate him when he was here. I do think that "basketball professionals" like Honacek and McD could have and should have seen the potential in IT and made the tough call.

On Bledsoe... let's cut bait and move on. Totally agree that the FO is being stubborn. Draft one of the franchise guys this year and we will be better long term.

[RaisingArizona]

Read on Twitter

I'm gonna have to pencil us in for an L tonight with that news.

How will we ever replace his 5 points, 4 rebounds and 5 fouls?

[thamadkant]

Dude, torn meniscus is like a broken nail compared to a torn ACL. Jabari's injury is waaaaaaay more serious than Bledsoe's.

Agreed completely. With meniscus injuries their are two options.....repair or remove. There are PLENTY of players who have gone repair or removal with success....

Westbrook - repair
Blake - portion removed
Wade - portion removed
Lin - repair
Bynum - a plethora of of knee injuries...impacted by knowingly PLAYING with a tear, and also TERRIBLE rehab practices....like BOWLING while rehabbing
CP3 - portion removed
Roy - removed. Roy has had 6 surgeries on his knees.....and all 4 of his menisci have been removed. His knees are the worst of the worst.
Arenas - Repair....too aggressively tries to return and reinjures. Repair....doesnt learn lesson and returns too early. Remove......Career
Rose - ACL tear first....and then meniscus tear. repaired

With Bledsoe, he was super young with his first and second tears. And repairing was the SMART option. As he ages though the chances of him having a tear trimmed instead of repaired increases. And when players like Griffin/Wade/CP3 elect to trim instead of repair, there is very little long term impact.

And along with that. In 2012 Blake had a LEFT meniscus removed.....which is unrelated to his RIGHT knee injury suffered this season.

The fact that this is Parker's 2nd ACL tear makes his injury SIGNIFICANTLY more impactful. Like i said, IF another tear happens with Bledsoe, he can easily have the torn portion removed and be recovered within a couple of weeks or less. You CANNOT remove a torn portion of the ACL.

How do you know all of this? Just curious? What's your background?

if he works in the medical field then he should know "tears" in a meniscus can be simple or complex. And the complex one, does not have a long-term working repair method. The knee joints do not are almost entirely constructed with ligaments and bones, the lack of tissue and blood prevents meniscus healing... especially the inner zone.


ACL injuries biggest obstacle is the Rehab.... its LONG. Once the ACL or any ligament tears, the muscle, tendon and ligament mechanics gets thrown out of whack and the rehab is the biggest obstacle. I'm 3 months post op and my knee cap doesnt track well when I bend and straighten my knee because the muscles on tibia is still "learning" how to function normally with an ACL again.
And of course the ACL's angle is never the same so it takes a while for the muscles around the knee to adjust to it.


But removed meniscus is permanent... and tears on meniscus are limited to outer repairs. And meniscus injuries affect the patient years in the future and their way of life... imagine having pain every after walking or running.

[Kerrsed]

The biggest blunders, to me, are trading for Knight AND trading Thomas.
I won't act like I wasn't Ok with dealing Thomas at the time, but it is questionable to make these trades when you already have IT who could have played alongside Bledsoe instead of trading him and then trading for Knight.
Given there was no salary jump yet, keeping a much cheaper Thomas seemed to make the most sense.

He was put in a tough spot with Dragic but I believe he panicked.
Those Miami picks will sway whether or not his run here is/was deemed a success along with this years pick.

Thomas would have never worked on our team. It just goes back to what i always say about how just because you think a player might suck or be horrible, a lot depends on the teams system and roster set-up, and Thomas is a perfect example of that, just like the dozens of other "crap" players that have a sudden resurgence after being traded to a new team.

Thomas wasnt a good fit here and a ton of people saw that and wanted him gone, but he got put on a team with the criteria being perfect to show what he could really do. I honestly believe the same thing could happen with Knight. If we trade him to the right team with the right system and he fits that right role around how their team is structured, he can once again be that 20/6/6 player again, which is pretty good for a PG in this day and age.

Its also the reason that i tend to have more "Outside-the-box" trade ideas that EVERYONE hates. Sure you might think the player is crap, but as long as he is still young, the potential is there, specially if he is still with his first team (The one who drafted him).

[Scutt]

The biggest blunders, to me, are trading for Knight AND trading Thomas.
I won't act like I wasn't Ok with dealing Thomas at the time, but it is questionable to make these trades when you already have IT who could have played alongside Bledsoe instead of trading him and then trading for Knight.
Given there was no salary jump yet, keeping a much cheaper Thomas seemed to make the most sense.

He was put in a tough spot with Dragic but I believe he panicked.
Those Miami picks will sway whether or not his run here is/was deemed a success along with this years pick.

Thomas would have never worked on our team. It just goes back to what i always say about how just because you think a player might suck or be horrible, a lot depends on the teams system and roster set-up, and Thomas is a perfect example of that, just like the dozens of other "crap" players that have a sudden resurgence after being traded to a new team.

Thomas wasnt a good fit here and a ton of people saw that and wanted him gone, but he got put on a team with the criteria being perfect to show what he could really do. I honestly believe the same thing could happen with Knight. If we trade him to the right team with the right system and he fits that right role around how their team is structured, he can once again be that 20/6/6 player again, which is pretty good for a PG in this day and age.

Its also the reason that i tend to have more "Outside-the-box" trade ideas that EVERYONE hates. Sure you might think the player is crap, but as long as he is still young, the potential is there, specially if he is still with his first team (The one who drafted him).

Do you feel that way about Alex Len? I feel like the Suns have done just a terrible job at developing him, and on a team like the Spurs, who value their big men and defense, he would probably thrive.

[bwgood77]

The biggest blunders, to me, are trading for Knight AND trading Thomas.
I won't act like I wasn't Ok with dealing Thomas at the time, but it is questionable to make these trades when you already have IT who could have played alongside Bledsoe instead of trading him and then trading for Knight.
Given there was no salary jump yet, keeping a much cheaper Thomas seemed to make the most sense.

He was put in a tough spot with Dragic but I believe he panicked.
Those Miami picks will sway whether or not his run here is/was deemed a success along with this years pick.

Thomas would have never worked on our team. It just goes back to what i always say about how just because you think a player might suck or be horrible, a lot depends on the teams system and roster set-up, and Thomas is a perfect example of that, just like the dozens of other "crap" players that have a sudden resurgence after being traded to a new team.

Thomas wasnt a good fit here and a ton of people saw that and wanted him gone, but he got put on a team with the criteria being perfect to show what he could really do. I honestly believe the same thing could happen with Knight. If we trade him to the right team with the right system and he fits that right role around how their team is structured, he can once again be that 20/6/6 player again, which is pretty good for a PG in this day and age.

Its also the reason that i tend to have more "Outside-the-box" trade ideas that EVERYONE hates. Sure you might think the player is crap, but as long as he is still young, the potential is there, specially if he is still with his first team (The one who drafted him).

Do you feel that way about Alex Len? I feel like the Suns have done just a terrible job at developing him, and on a team like the Spurs, who value their big men and defense, he would probably thrive.

Len would thrive on the Spurs, and his development could have been better, but he is still pretty elite at what he is good at. If he could just cut down on fouls and play within him offensive limitations, he would be a very valuable center.

[Kerrsed]

Do you feel that way about Alex Len?

After re-reading it, i see how that last part could be taken 2 different ways, so let me clarify. Im talking about a player being somewhat of a failure on his team and trading for him and him becoming much much better due to fitment. So in that regards, yes, i could see Len becoming a better player on another team. But do i feel like he can on our currently constructed squad and system? No. I think he would be more suitable in a slower tempo half court system, 'ala San Antonio and other teams that play similar. I think even though he was touted as being quick and mobile, our system is too much for him and causes him to make stupid mistakes. I could be wrong, but i think a majority of his points are scored in the paint when backing down players. We also tend to shoot quickly and attempt longer range shots, and it seems like to me he never really gets in the correct position to be a effective rebounder or defender because of that. Chandler does a lot better because of him being a battle tested veteran having a much higher basketball IQ.

So i think if Len could get on a slower tempo team with a more pass-first point guard, he could end up doing very well, but our team and system isnt constructed in a way that uses or nurtures Lens most effective playing style.

[Kerrsed]

Thomas would have never worked on our team. It just goes back to what i always say about how just because you think a player might suck or be horrible, a lot depends on the teams system and roster set-up, and Thomas is a perfect example of that, just like the dozens of other "crap" players that have a sudden resurgence after being traded to a new team.

Thomas wasnt a good fit here and a ton of people saw that and wanted him gone, but he got put on a team with the criteria being perfect to show what he could really do. I honestly believe the same thing could happen with Knight. If we trade him to the right team with the right system and he fits that right role around how their team is structured, he can once again be that 20/6/6 player again, which is pretty good for a PG in this day and age.

Its also the reason that i tend to have more "Outside-the-box" trade ideas that EVERYONE hates. Sure you might think the player is crap, but as long as he is still young, the potential is there, specially if he is still with his first team (The one who drafted him).

Do you feel that way about Alex Len? I feel like the Suns have done just a terrible job at developing him, and on a team like the Spurs, who value their big men and defense, he would probably thrive.

Len would thrive on the Spurs, and his development could have been better, but he is still pretty elite at what he is good at. If he could just cut down on fouls and play within him offensive limitations, he would be a very valuable center.

Its hilarious that as i was typing out my long winded post Scutt edited his to mention the Spurs, you post about the Spurs, and i was at the same time typing about the Spurs.

[Christine-In-AZ]

Do you feel that way about Alex Len? I feel like the Suns have done just a terrible job at developing him, and on a team like the Spurs, who value their big men and defense, he would probably thrive.

Len would thrive on the Spurs, and his development could have been better, but he is still pretty elite at what he is good at. If he could just cut down on fouls and play within him offensive limitations, he would be a very valuable center.

In like 40+ years of watching The Association I don't think I've ever seen a player worse at putting in "bunnies". Maybe my perception is off, but Alex is ridiculously bad with 1-4 foot shots, and he seems to be getting worse with time. This noted; I'm still good re-signing him this summer at likely a 14 to 16 million per price tag.

His "short game" will come back.

[nevetsov]

Re: IT and Knight trades... If you bundle them as one concurrent trade, we basically downgraded the Lakers pick to the Boston pick, for the opportunity to "upgrade" from IT to Knight.

But it's done now, no use crying over spilt milk.

[bwgood77]

Do you feel that way about Alex Len? I feel like the Suns have done just a terrible job at developing him, and on a team like the Spurs, who value their big men and defense, he would probably thrive.

Len would thrive on the Spurs, and his development could have been better, but he is still pretty elite at what he is good at. If he could just cut down on fouls and play within him offensive limitations, he would be a very valuable center.

Its hilarious that as i was typing out my long winded post Scutt edited his to mention the Spurs, you post about the Spurs, and i was at the same time typing about the Spurs.

I went in to try and fix Scutt's quoting problem (with an edit), and when I did, I saw mention of the Spurs (which I didn't notice on first read), so I hit the back button to see how I had missed the Spurs part, and it wasn't there, so then I just refreshed and noticed he went back and edited and fixed the quoting problem and I guess added the Spurs part.

It's weird though how some of our players are so hated by many and their strengths are just overlooked and never acknowledged no matter who much they are brought up, and then other players have no faults, and any miscues/weaknesses overlooked.

It's great that we have so many great posters to point things out to remind us of these strengths that people may miss and reasons why Warren might not be playing as well (ie, darealjuice mentioning how TJ is much more effective with Dudley at 4 stretching floor being 42% 3pt shooter pulling defender out allowing Warren slashing room as opposed to playing with Chriss who defenders do not respect to stretch the floor and thereby can help defend on Warren).

To move this from Len to Warren...in the right lineups with shooters, I think Warren can be a lethal scorer...maybe our best scorer...or most consistent...our 3 pt shooters are always going to be streaky. Of course it will also be good if TJ can get that 3 ball back.

[Kerrsed]

I still think Warren is the re-incarnation of Rudy Gay.

And with that being said, Gay was a great scorer. He was/is just lacking an a lot of the other elements of the game.

[nevetsov]

Re: Len, I don't see him reaching his offensive potential here because his mentor is a completely different offensive player.

Len has the skills to be a two way centre, a poor man's Olajuwan, Marc Gasol, Duncan type.

Chandler is a defensive centre - his offensive game is comprised exclusively of setting screens, rolling to the basket and looking for putbacks. Your Dwight Howard, deandre Jordan type.

Getting Len to try and learn from Chandler is like trying to force a square peg to fit a round hole. He's not a natural roll to the basket kind of guy. He's a technically skilled big who spends his off seasons going to those big man camps, and then comes into the season having to fit a team that doesn't utilise the skillset that he has worked on during the off-season.

He's stuck between the player he is by nature, and the player the team wants him to be (set screens, promote guard dominance, look for putbacks).

[bwgood77]

I still think Warren is the re-incarnation of Rudy Gay.

And with that being said, Gay was a great scorer. He was/is just lacking an a lot of the other elements of the game.

Well, I am not sure I completely agree, but that's definitely a compliment. Many don't appreciate Gay but it is mostly relative to draft position and expectations, as well as the evolving nature of the game when he came in.

Just comparing their first three years in the league, Warren was still the better shooter short/mid range. He is just a money scorer. But what was impressive coming into this year before his injury was his steal rate. The biggest problem with Warren, as compared to say, Booker, is that he hasn't had quite as much opportunity. Didn't play much as a rookie. Then got injured last year...was on fire this year before the illness/head injury, and that has clearly impacted him.

It's really just too tough to make an accurate assessment for me. But I've seen him at his best, and that's impressive.

[bwgood77]

Re: IT and Knight trades... If you bundle them as one concurrent trade, we basically downgraded the Lakers pick to the Boston pick, for the opportunity to "upgrade" from IT to Knight.

But it's done now, no use crying over spilt milk.

Yeah, it will just be interesting to see how bad that spill was. IT, Ennis, Plumlee and 4th pick in super deep draft this year for Knight and 28th or 29th pick last year. VERY VERY bad. It might still be protected this year, but if so, it could be the #1 pick next year. The Lakers might get better, but so is everyone else in the west. And it's obviously not something I hope for anyway.

[LukasBMW]

Agreed completely. With meniscus injuries their are two options.....repair or remove. There are PLENTY of players who have gone repair or removal with success....

Westbrook - repair
Blake - portion removed
Wade - portion removed
Lin - repair
Bynum - a plethora of of knee injuries...impacted by knowingly PLAYING with a tear, and also TERRIBLE rehab practices....like BOWLING while rehabbing
CP3 - portion removed
Roy - removed. Roy has had 6 surgeries on his knees.....and all 4 of his menisci have been removed. His knees are the worst of the worst.
Arenas - Repair....too aggressively tries to return and reinjures. Repair....doesnt learn lesson and returns too early. Remove......Career
Rose - ACL tear first....and then meniscus tear. repaired

With Bledsoe, he was super young with his first and second tears. And repairing was the SMART option. As he ages though the chances of him having a tear trimmed instead of repaired increases. And when players like Griffin/Wade/CP3 elect to trim instead of repair, there is very little long term impact.

And along with that. In 2012 Blake had a LEFT meniscus removed.....which is unrelated to his RIGHT knee injury suffered this season.

The fact that this is Parker's 2nd ACL tear makes his injury SIGNIFICANTLY more impactful. Like i said, IF another tear happens with Bledsoe, he can easily have the torn portion removed and be recovered within a couple of weeks or less. You CANNOT remove a torn portion of the ACL.

How do you know all of this? Just curious? What's your background?

if he works in the medical field then he should know "tears" in a meniscus can be simple or complex. And the complex one, does not have a long-term working repair method. The knee joints do not are almost entirely constructed with ligaments and bones, the lack of tissue and blood prevents meniscus healing... especially the inner zone.


ACL injuries biggest obstacle is the Rehab.... its LONG. Once the ACL or any ligament tears, the muscle, tendon and ligament mechanics gets thrown out of whack and the rehab is the biggest obstacle. I'm 3 months post op and my knee cap doesnt track well when I bend and straighten my knee because the muscles on tibia is still "learning" how to function normally with an ACL again.
And of course the ACL's angle is never the same so it takes a while for the muscles around the knee to adjust to it.


But removed meniscus is permanent... and tears on meniscus are limited to outer repairs. And meniscus injuries affect the patient years in the future and their way of life... imagine having pain every after walking or running.

I tore my ACL and meniscus in 2009. Also cracked my kneecap. Rehab sucked. Took me 8 months to run again without pain.

Question for either of you guys since you seem to know medical stuff:

3 weeks ago, I *thought* I had given myself a hernia helping my elderly neighbor put his Christmas decorations in the attic. (That Christmas tree was heavy)

An urgent care doctor examined me and told me that it wasn't a hernia "because the wall was intact". He did tell me I had a tear and needed to take 3 weeks off from high impact activities. I could only walk or use the elliptical.

It's been 3 weeks and while I no longer have a bulge in my crotch nor the "kicked in the nuts" sensation, when I tighten up my core, the injury area still feels week.

I imagine either the doc was wrong and I do need surgery OR I need more time to heal?

I googled "groin tear" and WebMD tells me the heal time is 4-6 weeks. Maybe my tear is more serious then the doc thought?

It's been 3 weeks

[dremill24]

'Merica says you must drive to an office and pay a co-pay plus a bogus bill later in order to obtain information like this.

[Zelaznyrules]

'Merica says you must drive to an office and pay a co-pay plus a bogus bill later in order to obtain information like this.

It's much better to rely on the expertise found within the internets. As an old man, I'm not ashamed to admit that had I not mastered googling I would not know that I'm probably pregnant, suffering from alien hand syndrome and in the early stages of exploding head disease. Now I can rest easy and won't be needing that endoscopy after all.

[WeekapaugGroove]

Re: IT and Knight trades... If you bundle them as one concurrent trade, we basically downgraded the Lakers pick to the Boston pick, for the opportunity to "upgrade" from IT to Knight.

But it's done now, no use crying over spilt milk.

Yeah, it will just be interesting to see how bad that spill was. IT, Ennis, Plumlee and 4th pick in super deep draft this year for Knight and 28th or 29th pick last year. VERY VERY bad. It might still be protected this year, but if so, it could be the #1 pick next year. The Lakers might get better, but so is everyone else in the west. And it's obviously not something I hope for anyway.

Its was a bad trade day for mcd thats for damn sure. The knight trade is just an absolute disaster.

Now to play devil's advocate and cheer us up heres a few things to consider: sure the IT trade looks bad now but atleast from an asset management standpoint they didnt give up anything other than cap space to get him and that 1st they did get was used to help land chriss.

Maybe more importantly is the butterfly effect of that deal. Say they kept IT its reasonable to think they win a few more games that season. That pushes them down in the draft and they probably dont land booker. Then last year if they have IT when bledsoe goes down they probably arent the train wreck they turned out to be and instead of bender you are picking late lotto.

And while they would be better its not like they would be a contender with IT probably late lotto type team that would have sarver itching to make idiotic win now moves. Maybe the mistakes of that day inadvertently got them off the goddamn treadmill to mediocrity.

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