2020 Preseason Speculation - Lineup battles underway

[lilfishi22]

The Suns are not a better team trading Cam, Ruibo and Oubre for Paul?

But to your point - I would have to see the other moves to get the full picture. But they better be damn sure of the "other moves>"

Oh we were trying to sign Gallo but lets just bring Frank the Tank back - he is a tall white guy - who will notice?!?

This is something I've been trying to grapple with and if I'm being honest, I do actually think we're better with CP3 even with those pieces gone. Oubre to me is a lesser piece of the 3 guys because he didn't play in the bubble when we played our best basketball of the season while Cam and Rubio stepped up. CP3 is better than Rubio in virtually every metric and his ability to shoot and score at the PG position is a significant advantage over Rubio. So then what about Cam? Great sharp shooter who started to get comfortable towards the start of the break and continued to get better in the bubble but he's replaceable.

And if we are able to get a guy like Gallo on the cheap or I dunno...Milsapp or something, even better. I'm not a CP3 fan at all, never have been but his talent is undeniable and I think his team elevating abilities is seriously underrated or at least greatly diminished in the eyes of the many fans because of how much he's paid, his injury history, his age, his flopping and the fact that he's just never been able to get to the Finals. But he is a seriously good basketball player, even at this age. He's a real gamble but I think you're gambling too on Rubio not losing too much of his abilities over his contract, you're gambling on Oubre continuing to make real strides while not taking the king's bounty of a contract, you're gambling on Cam being a lot more than just a sharp shooter and you're gambling on Booker/Ayton taking another massive step in improvement with the personnel we have.

If I'm a gambling man, I'm taking the bigger bet here because I think there's a real case to be made that the bigger bet might also be the safer bet

The thing is, our only real lineups that were a big net positive were with Oubre or Cam starting at the 4. If you trade both, even if you get Gallo, you might be better, but you also are suddenly a very old and injury prone team. Who is your future PF now? I feel comfortable starting Cam at the 4 going forward, for now, considering how we played in the bubble, but I don't know about Saric. Suddenly when these older guys are gone or injured, we have to find a PG and PF, and I know people expect great trades later or great FA signings but I wouldn't necessarily count on that...internal growth and building culture through the draft and maybe a FA or two is good and we were headed in the right direction and everyone was excited for the Suns.

Now I do think people will be excited for the Suns, probably more excited, with Paul, but to give up Cam along with those others, which was already a nice trade to save a ton of money for OKC, is too much. I also don't think it's a risk with Rubio declining over the next two years. He's the same age as when we signed Nash and often PGs get better around then, and I expect him to improve.

Not disagreeing with you nor Kerrsed but just presenting another perspective.

The moment you trade for CP3 with Rubio and Oubre, you're already making this team old. And swapping Cam for Gallo is an extension of adding to the age of this team. That's largely consistent with what most teams would do if they traded for a guy of CP3s calibre.

To me, Cam isnt a PF or wing of the future

[Qwigglez]

Trade that package to the Rockets for Harden. James Jones bout to get fleeced, gonna get so lost in trying not to trade Cam Johnson that we end up trading Booker or Ayton.

[suns12345]

The Suns are not a better team trading Cam, Ruibo and Oubre for Paul?

But to your point - I would have to see the other moves to get the full picture. But they better be damn sure of the "other moves>"

Oh we were trying to sign Gallo but lets just bring Frank the Tank back - he is a tall white guy - who will notice?!?

This is something I've been trying to grapple with and if I'm being honest, I do actually think we're better with CP3 even with those pieces gone. Oubre to me is a lesser piece of the 3 guys because he didn't play in the bubble when we played our best basketball of the season while Cam and Rubio stepped up. CP3 is better than Rubio in virtually every metric and his ability to shoot and score at the PG position is a significant advantage over Rubio. So then what about Cam? Great sharp shooter who started to get comfortable towards the start of the break and continued to get better in the bubble but he's replaceable.

And if we are able to get a guy like Gallo on the cheap or I dunno...Milsapp or something, even better. I'm not a CP3 fan at all, never have been but his talent is undeniable and I think his team elevating abilities is seriously underrated or at least greatly diminished in the eyes of the many fans because of how much he's paid, his injury history, his age, his flopping and the fact that he's just never been able to get to the Finals. But he is a seriously good basketball player, even at this age. He's a real gamble but I think you're gambling too on Rubio not losing too much of his abilities over his contract, you're gambling on Oubre continuing to make real strides while not taking the king's bounty of a contract, you're gambling on Cam being a lot more than just a sharp shooter and you're gambling on Booker/Ayton taking another massive step in improvement with the personnel we have.

If I'm a gambling man, I'm taking the bigger bet here because I think there's a real case to be made that the bigger bet might also be the safer bet

The thing is, our only real lineups that were a big net positive were with Oubre or Cam starting at the 4. If you trade both, even if you get Gallo, you might be better, but you also are suddenly a very old and injury prone team. Who is your future PF now? I feel comfortable starting Cam at the 4 going forward, for now, considering how we played in the bubble, but I don't know about Saric. Suddenly when these older guys are gone or injured, we have to find a PG and PF, and I know people expect great trades later or great FA signings but I wouldn't necessarily count on that...internal growth and building culture through the draft and maybe a FA or two is good and we were headed in the right direction and everyone was excited for the Suns.

Now I do think people will be excited for the Suns, probably more excited, with Paul, but to give up Cam along with those others, which was already a nice trade to save a ton of money for OKC, is too much. I also don't think it's a risk with Rubio declining over the next two years. He's the same age as when we signed Nash and often PGs get better around then, and I expect him to improve.

I've been on the fence with this rubio,oubre>CP3 trade, ubt happy for it to happen.

I'd be annoyed about including the #10 but tbh the draft is a crapshoot so not fussed about that.

Including Cam however would be a disaster, I think we have something good in him. Hoping it's not true.

[TeamTragic]

Nets have a better package for Harden and Woj said Harden is warming up to the idea.

[suns12345]

Nets have a better package for Harden and Woj said Harden is warming up to the idea.

Harden, kyrie, KD... Nets are gonna be wild if they can figure out how to play together.

Steve Nash will have his hands full lmao.

[TeamTragic]

Nets have a better package for Harden and Woj said Harden is warming up to the idea.

Harden, kyrie, KD... Nets are gonna be wild if they can figure out how to play together.

Steve Nash will have his hands full lmao.

Nash can handle his players without a doubt.

Bucks shaking in their boots

[Sunsdeuce]

Take a break and do yourself a favor and watch what D-Hop did.

Who is D-Hop?

Not sure if serious

[TheLogician]

Read on Twitter

[Slim Charless]

I've gotten to like Cam over the season despite hating the pick and while I do agree that his upside isn't that of a typical 1st round draft pick, I think it's a little presumptuous to say he has no upside. FWIW, he did played to expectations and arguably showed more than most expected. Given what he is shown, I do think he can be considered a known quantity and that is of a solid 3PT shooting wing who fits quite well in our offense.

I wouldn't be so keen to just throw him in. But I do understand the sentiment that this FO likely won't make Cam the dealbreaker in a trade that both the NBPA President and our franchise player wants to make happen.

It helps that Nesmith and Vassell who both can shoot lights out (and can also defend) as well as Okoro all available as decent wing choices. All 3 should likely be there at 10 too and are on average 4 years younger than Cam. Still, Cam was a great find and I'd prefer to keep him. Who else does OKC think is gonna trade for CP3 anyway? Hopefully we hold strong here.

I wish i saved the tweet, but i was one that had Nesmith over Vassell because of his lights out 3 point shooting, but someone on Twitter crunched the numbers of guys who made it to the NBA that averaged less than 1 assist and over 1.5 TO's a game and it was a list of like 12 NBA players that i honestly couldnt name or remember a single one of them. It was that bad. Like it was an eye opener of a really bad sign. Ive really cooled on Nesmith.

If I have a choice and I'm forced to give up Cam and pick a replacement I would most likely choose Vassell. He still shoots at a fantastic clip and his defense is better than Nesmith's. They're roughly the same size but Vassell seems to be a little more versatile and is younger.

[Kerrsed]

If OKC wants Cam or our pick........just give them both!

Read on Twitter

[Slim Charless]

Nets have a better package for Harden and Woj said Harden is warming up to the idea.

Harden, kyrie, KD... Nets are gonna be wild if they can figure out how to play together.

Steve Nash will have his hands full lmao.

Nash can handle his players without a doubt.

Bucks shaking in their boots

I keep seeing this too and I have no idea why Boston wouldn't jump in on that deal. I know they love Brown, but a package of him, Smart and some picks would be better than what the Nets are offering and it would put Boston at the top of the East and favored to go to Finals-by a long shot.

Edit: Or Philly trading Embiid/Simmons

[AtheJ415]

I think if it comes down to making book happy or trading Cam and keeping the #10...... bye bye cam

I am keeping Cam J over the tenth pick in this draft

If need be swap the 10 for 28 and keep Cam J

I just don't see why we'd include anything beyond Oubre and Rubio. Who are we bidding against exactly who would offer more? 10, Johnson, Bridges, or hell even a future protected 1st, are all way too much.

[suns12345]

If OKC wants Cam or our pick........just give them both!

Read on Twitter

Now this I would consider hahaha

Surely that isn't on the table (and I know you were probably mostly joking), but is there any chance this is what is being discussed??

And, would people be happy with this?

[lilfishi22]

If OKC wants Cam or our pick........just give them both!

Read on Twitter

[King4Day]

Nets have a better package for Harden and Woj said Harden is warming up to the idea.

He can want the Nets all he wants. If Houston decides to deal him, he has 3 years left. Endless teams will knock on the door
Maybe a 3 teamer that sends him to charlotte, Beal to Houston, and the Hornets young players and next half decade of picks to Washington and Houston

[King4Day]

If OKC wants Cam or our pick........just give them both!

Read on Twitter

Now this I would consider hahaha

Surely that isn't on the table (and I know you were probably mostly joking), but is there any chance this is what is being discussed??

And, would people be happy with this?

I don't think there'd a chance of getting them to listen without Ayton and/or Bridges in the discussion. SGA is going to be a star.

[darealjuice]

Who are we even bidding against for Cam Johnson or the 10th pick to be a sticking point? Why don't we meet in the middle and give them Ty Jerome lol

[Crives]

One way to look at this is:

If we had a TON of cap space, and Chris Paul was a FA, would you want to sign him to a 2 year, $85 million contract?

If we had $10 million in cap space, would you trade Rubio AND Oubre to a team like Atlanta who has a ton of cap space to absorb them, for NOTHING in return from Atlanta and THEN sign Paul with the cap space you created to a 2 year, $85 million contract?

And then, the same scenario as the last one, but would you give Atlanta the #10 pick to absorb the Oubre AND Rubio contracts so you could sign CP3 to a 2 year, $85 million contract?

I wonder how people would feel if those were potential scenarios that basically end up with the same result.

Here is how I am looking at it.

Would you sign CP3 to a 1 year $33m contract?
(If we perform trade after FA we can go over cap by 8m)
I would be on the fence about this, likely leaning no.

Now if you tell me that CP3 can help us get FA who would not have considered us and get us bargain deals, allowing us to add an additional 5m to 10m In FA? CP3 on a 23m to 28m contract is something I would likely do if the cost was just Rubio + Oubre.

If we had to add #10 with no picks coming back I would likely lean no again.

If we could flip #10 for #14 + #26, and send Oubre + Rubio + #26... I could get on board with that trade.

OK the $33 million makes sense if we do it after FA given that we would be at the cap...or over with minimums to fill out roster. But the fact is we would have him that next year, preventing any free agency moves before our last chance before paying Ayton/Bridges.

Then when Paul is gone we don't have any cap space to sign another PG other than maybe with the MLE. I guess it's possible we might have some depending on Ayton and Bridges' cap holds, unless we give extensions early like with Booker.

Now people talk about him being an expiring and being tradable but we'd still have to take back a huge salary that wasn't expiring. It could be possible to trade him for something like Beal if we throw in a bunch of firsts and a young player, IF Beal wants out, though Paul probably wouldn't be too happy after maneuvering his way to Phx...possibly Booker too.

I agree with your trade ideas. Even though I am presenting the scenarios, I would probably do it for 26 plus the two players if we were able to get 14 and make the pick.

Still be fine either way though. I like Rubio. I like Oubre. I like prospects at #10. Paul is old...and might revert to his injury ways after an anomaly season.

Agree with everything you said.

My main concern is the age, if CP3 gets injured we are screwed. Depending on the deal I think it could be worth the risk. Aside from on court production, CP3 would cement our status back into respectable territory. Being treated fairly by the refs again would be priceless.. we probably win 5+ more games last year if the refs treated us fairly.

In regards to limited 2021 cap flexibility, you have to look at the alternatives. We would not have much cap space in 2021 if we ran it back with Oubre and Rubio this season, Unless we want to say goodbye to Dario and go after subpar FA on 1 year deals this summer. We are still without a long term pg if we stick with Rubio.

Bottom line,
If we execute the trade after spending our cap space and CP3 helps us in FA, I think the actual CP3 contract will cost us close to 23m to 28m and improve our short and long term outlook. All comes down to gambling on CP3 health and cost of the trade.

[Crives]

If OKC wants Cam or our pick........just give them both!

Read on Twitter

Now this I would consider hahaha

Surely that isn't on the table (and I know you were probably mostly joking), but is there any chance this is what is being discussed??

And, would people be happy with this?

I don't think there'd a chance of getting them to listen without Ayton and/or Bridges in the discussion. SGA is going to be a star.

Is he though? I think SGA is a bit overhyped.

[LukasBMW]

Kemba or Jrue please.