2024-25 Season Discussion and Speculation

[dremill24]

I am not in favor of digging even deeper by dealing that '31 1st. If you wanna blow all your 2nds to modify your supporting cast so you do something this season, fine. But just ride this season out and use the offseason to start getting crazy.

[King4Day]

Sengun and Amen are untouchable but we could probably get Jabari, Whitmore and our pick/swaps back…

Those guys Jabari and Whitmore arent that good. I'd want Jalen and hold hard Tari Eason included. If that doesn't work then two of Smith/Whitmore/Sheppard included with Jalen if we're talking backup plans.

Nothing suggests either Sengun or Amen are untouchable. In fact was reported to be an evaluation year or something along those lines, similar to OKC last year. What's clear is that the Rockets are positioning themselves for some kind of big offseason move to vault themselves into the true competitor tier. But you have to start negotiations from Amen Thompson because quite frankly if we're talking a Booker trade Amen is the only guy who actually gives us reasonably fair value back.

I read somewhere that the Rockets love the idea of a Reed/Amen combo as they seem to compliment each other very well. That's why they took Reed so high. Now, will they break that up for Booker? Maybe. But they obviously got all of our picks for a reason....

Exactly. I noted it before but if they wanted the picks to use them or trade them elsewhere, they would have kept the Nets picks. Those have higher chance to be better than the Suns. Especially with Cooper Flagg in this years draft.

They want(ed) KD or Book and are prepared to use the picks for one of them.

Now, if the Suns don't play ball, they can use them elsewhere for a star and now the Suns will be forced to play ball with THAT team in hopes they would trade for one of our stars.

[garrick]

Butler isn't going to solve this mess. He only wants the Suns because the payday he will get.

I don't even think the Beal deal was that bad. I honestly think the Suns screwed up when they traded Ayton for Nurkic and Grayson, who are both negative assets at this point. The Suns lost any kind of defensive identity having a plodding starting center.

Anyway, if a deal needs to happen, I'd look for something else where the Suns get a couple of role players over Jimmy Butler.

Don't forget we gave us up Camara in that trade too.

I hate Ayton like anyone else here but we'd be a far bigger, more athletic and ultimately better team without that disaster class of a trade

Ayton wanted out. He was done with the team and the team/fans were done with him. Doesn't make the trade good obviously but he wouldn't be playing for the Suns.

JJ was trying to trade him and the front office didn't even want to extend him and it was no secret Book and KD didn't really want him here anyway so the feeling was mutual.

A real leader would have made it work but KD and Book are horrible leaders in the locker room and on the floor. Pippen was unhappy with the Bulls front office and he felt underpayed but MJ made it work, the minute MJ retired after the second repeat Pippen was out of there and signed with Houston which ultimately did not work out.

[BobbieL]

Those guys Jabari and Whitmore arent that good. I'd want Jalen and hold hard Tari Eason included. If that doesn't work then two of Smith/Whitmore/Sheppard included with Jalen if we're talking backup plans.

Nothing suggests either Sengun or Amen are untouchable. In fact was reported to be an evaluation year or something along those lines, similar to OKC last year. What's clear is that the Rockets are positioning themselves for some kind of big offseason move to vault themselves into the true competitor tier. But you have to start negotiations from Amen Thompson because quite frankly if we're talking a Booker trade Amen is the only guy who actually gives us reasonably fair value back.

I read somewhere that the Rockets love the idea of a Reed/Amen combo as they seem to compliment each other very well. That's why they took Reed so high. Now, will they break that up for Booker? Maybe. But they obviously got all of our picks for a reason....

Exactly. I noted it before but if they wanted the picks to use them or trade them elsewhere, they would have kept the Nets picks. Those have higher chance to be better than the Suns. Especially with Cooper Flagg in this years draft.

They want(ed) KD or Book and are prepared to use the picks for one of them.

Now, if the Suns don't play ball, they can use them elsewhere for a star and now the Suns will be forced to play ball with THAT team in hopes they would trade for one of our stars.

This is my thought
1) the Suns can trade Allen, Dunn, whatever, use the 2031 and get Butler

2) blow it up, trade KD, trade Durant, trade Tyus Jones for a second, whatever. Trade Royce if Need


and I think the second option would actually put them closer to a title than the first option. Granted, that means firing James Jones

This team is not winning anything
trade Booker
trade Durant
start getting some cap space back

get some picks
let Beal be the 2G averaging 30 ppg on terrible efficiency and let him expire
who cares - but this train the team is on is not going anywhere and if they do everything to get Butler, that will set them back ten years

[bwgood77]

35 year old Jimmy Butler will save this franchise. Sure. Whatever. **** this.

Yeah, while I was watching the game last night....speeding through the 4th I was thinking, "I am pretty close to not watching altogether"...

Why don't we blow it up? I thought of Bridges making a 3 and his smile and 3 sign and the happiness and chemistry that team had. We have nothing like that any more.

You build teams by building chemistry and bonds between teammates and playing together. I feel like Book just wants us to add good players to him and that you can just add a few great players together, fill out the roster and win.

But Book never had that winning mentality and leadership. Always was a great scorer but Paul brought that with him and it left with him as he declined. KD never had it either. Those OKC teams were good but young, athletic, super talented with Harden, Russ, Serge, etc, but they ultimately never could get over the top. Sure he did it with Curry and Dray and that team that already had exceptional chemistry and leadership. But Brooklyn was a good example of how it doesn't work.

We don't have the mental makeup to win. Book and KD are very very talented, but they just don't.

Now actually Butler does kind of have that. We'd be better, but it's just too little, too late, and the talent in the west at the top is too strong.

We can actually be smart and get some serious assets for Book and KD and do a rebuild, but the window to do that, is fairly small. KD's value will decline. Booker's may too

I don't think Ishbia has the balls to make the hard decision to blow it up though. He will learn the very hard and painful way over the next decade that you have to keep the mid and long term in view.

[bwgood77]

Booker for Amen + our picks this off-season or at the trade deadline. Next year will be too late if it isn't already.

In fact I think it's probably best to just do it now.

Yes, just do it. Get it done.

[bwgood77]

Booker for Amen + our picks this off-season or at the trade deadline. Next year will be too late if it isn't already.

In fact I think it's probably best to just do it now.

Sengun and Amen are untouchable but we could probably get Jabari, Whitmore and our pick/swaps back…

Those guys Jabari and Whitmore arent that good. I'd want Jalen and hold hard Tari Eason included. If that doesn't work then two of Smith/Whitmore/Sheppard included with Jalen if we're talking backup plans.

Nothing suggests either Sengun or Amen are untouchable. In fact was reported to be an evaluation year or something along those lines, similar to OKC last year. What's clear is that the Rockets are positioning themselves for some kind of big offseason move to vault themselves into the true competitor tier. But you have to start negotiations from Amen Thompson because quite frankly if we're talking a Booker trade Amen is the only guy who actually gives us reasonably fair value back.

Why are you so much higher on Amen than Jabari? I figured they'd be higher on Jabari than Amen. He's younger, he's a PF who can hit the 3. He's not a great 3 pt shooter, but you have Amen who is older, is a wing, cannot shoot the 3 (under 25%), is a bad FT shooter (sub 70%). He's a nice athlete but a Jabari skill set is a bit more rare. Thompson can only score right around the rim. Nice defender and finisher but I don't see why his value would be really high and Jabari low. Maybe if he was younger.

[bwgood77]

I think the Nets have the pick swap rights still.
As far as I know, the best we can get from Houston would be our fully traded firsts for '25, '27, and '29

Done. Tho i think we can get Jalen Green in there as well, if for no other reason then the Rockets need to move him as he and Booker play the same pos.

Jabari
Jalen
Whitmore
Our picks back

Id ask for Jalen+Eason first, then pivot to Jalen+ two of Jabari/Whitmore/Sheppard with a small preference for Jabari (but it doesn't really matter who comes back it's a crap shoot as to which players turn out better).

I read somewhere that the Rockets love the idea of a Reed/Amen combo as they seem to compliment each other very well. That's why they took Reed so high. Now, will they break that up for Booker? Maybe. But they obviously got all of our picks for a reason....

Yeah they probably realized that last year we weren't very good, KD is likely to decline (yeah...he is compared to last year. Josh Lloyd from fantasy predicted a KD decline before the season with his model), and we are fully capped out/2nd apron'd etc., so they made a bet that we'd not make any progress this year and eventually want to rebuild. So far they're right on no progress. In fact we've gone backwards. But they might be underestimating Ishbia's stupidity.

Oh, they'd for sure give you Eason before Smith. Are you sure you're not thinking of this from a fantasy perspective and you need steals?

[bwgood77]

I feel like Houston may want KD more than Booker as he might cost just our picks back and not much additional assets.

That doesn't make sense to me at all from a team building perspective. Houston is a young team with guys in their young 20s building a contender for the future. Why would they prefer to add KD to that than Book? Though I also felt they were most set at the bigger positions with Sengun and Jabari. Even Eason is a PF and Thompson a SF. Their guards are all older guys it's seems they'd want to replace.

[bwgood77]

Read on Twitter

What are our odds of actually going 30-17 the rest of the way as the season gets more difficult and competitive due to teams trying to secure the tiebreakers?

Which is why the Butler trade needs to happen ASAP. Sure he will be out a few games due to the suspension but if we get to the trade deadline and playing well with Beal and Butler has not been traded forget it.

You trade for 36 year old Butler and give him a huge contract so you can squeeze into the play in? And then in subsequent years this team only gets older and worse.

[bwgood77]

Yes, Amen is one of the best defenders in the league (his comparison isn't Jaylen Brown btw, it's Giannis)

Wow, you are high on him. At the same age, Giannis was averaging 23, 9, 5.4, 1.9, 1.6, was an all star, most improved, and 7th in MVP voting. Even the year before he was at like 17, 7.7, 4.3,1.4,1.2.

I guess Amen's #s at 22 are about the same as Giannis' at 20.

[BobbieL]

35 year old Jimmy Butler will save this franchise. Sure. Whatever. **** this.

Yeah, while I was watching the game last night....speeding through the 4th I was thinking, "I am pretty close to not watching altogether"...

Why don't we blow it up? I thought of Bridges making a 3 and his smile and 3 sign and the happiness and chemistry that team had. We have nothing like that any more.

You build teams by building chemistry and bonds between teammates and playing together. I feel like Book just wants us to add good players to him and that you can just add a few great players together, fill out the roster and win.

But Book never had that winning mentality and leadership. Always was a great scorer but Paul brought that with him and it left with him as he declined. KD never had it either. Those OKC teams were good but young, athletic, super talented with Harden, Russ, Serge, etc, but they ultimately never could get over the top. Sure he did it with Curry and Dray and that team that already had exceptional chemistry and leadership. But Brooklyn was a good example of how it doesn't work.

We don't have the mental makeup to win. Book and KD are very very talented, but they just don't.

Now actually Butler does kind of have that. We'd be better, but it's just too little, too late, and the talent in the west at the top is too strong.

We can actually be smart and get some serious assets for Book and KD and do a rebuild, but the window to do that, is fairly small. KD's value will decline. Booker's may too

I don't think Ishbia has the balls to make the hard decision to blow it up though. He will learn the very hard and painful way over the next decade that you have to keep the mid and long term in view.

You are right. Those teams were fun to watch and they had chemistry and Paul was the perfect maestro
This team is so tough to watch
Plus they aren't going anywhere

you are right about Booker and Durant

I doubt Ishbia has the guys to do ti - but its the right thing to do

The trade for Durant in that iteration is what I hated. It just took away too much for a 35 year old player
Booker - you are right. He is not an alpha playuer. He is better as a sidekick

[Qwigglez]

I feel like Houston may want KD more than Booker as he might cost just our picks back and not much additional assets.

That doesn't make sense to me at all from a team building perspective. Houston is a young team with guys in their young 20s building a contender for the future. Why would they prefer to add KD to that than Book? Though I also felt they were most set at the bigger positions with Sengun and Jabari. Even Eason is a PF and Thompson a SF. Their guards are all older guys it's seems they'd want to replace.

Like I said, because KD may only cost our picks back and Houston might want to keep their young core together. It may not be their narrative at all though, I could just see a scenario where that may be their preference. Plus, I'm not sure if the Suns front office wants to entirely blow it up, they could just try to retool around Booker. I personally think they should just trade everyone at this point (besides Dunn/Oso) as I don't see the passion in any Suns players (besides the rooks).

[Qwigglez]

Read on Twitter

What are our odds of actually going 30-17 the rest of the way as the season gets more difficult and competitive due to teams trying to secure the tiebreakers?

Which is why the Butler trade needs to happen ASAP. Sure he will be out a few games due to the suspension but if we get to the trade deadline and playing well with Beal and Butler has not been traded forget it.

You trade for 36 year old Butler and give him a huge contract so you can squeeze into the play in? And then in subsequent years this team only gets older and worse.

That's been many players mentality since the bubble though. Squeeze into the play-in, and try to make a deep playoff run. The Heat have been doing that since Butler arrived into town. The Lakers were all about it with Lebron. The Nets tried that in KD's last year too. The Warriors. All of the older players have been trying to preserve themselves for the playoffs and it is ruining the NBA (personal opinion). I mentioned it before, but Booker's taken on this approach after having the Suns franchise winning record in 2021-22 season and losing to the Mavs. It's been many teams' formula since Silver changed to the play-in format.

[Ghost of Kleine]

Read on Twitter

What are our odds of actually going 30-17 the rest of the way as the season gets more difficult and competitive due to teams trying to secure the tiebreakers?

Which is why the Butler trade needs to happen ASAP. Sure he will be out a few games due to the suspension but if we get to the trade deadline and playing well with Beal and Butler has not been traded forget it.

You trade for 36 year old Butler and give him a huge contract so you can squeeze into the play in? And then in subsequent years this team only gets older and worse.

You're absolutely right man. But honestly, my only interest in a Jimmy Butler trade is not because I think that he'll make us a contender or even help us turn this season around enough to make the playoffs. Because I don't really think that he can even do that for us at this point unfortunately. I think we just have to many issues and no real assets to change tu things immeasurably at this point.

Honestly though, the only reason that I'd have interest in getting Butler would be because he wouldn't have a no trade clause like Beal and that means that we could actually trade him somewhere even if he didn't approve that trade and maybe recoup a few assets from him.

Especially because I believe that even Booker and KDs' trade values are rapidly depreciating the longer they stay in this big three fiasco and continue to underperform and not even show effort or interest in winning. That's also limiting our future potentially! But if the deal requires us giving up our UNPROTECTED 31' first AND/ OR DUNN ( either really). Then in that case I rather just keep Beal here for the following two years or whatever and just blow it up and tank hard!

Let Beal enjoy the rebuild on a terrible team for screwing us with his no trade clause since " he holds all the cards". He can still hold them through a full rebuild then.

[Saberestar]

Whitmore is not particularly a great lone prospect as a return for Booker (Rockets subreddit is also speculating Whitmore is not really a team first guy btw). You can get more than just him i.e. include him in a package around Jalen Green.

But it's Booker we're talking about. Booker's own value is very very very high (and if you talk advanced metrics he's a lot higher than Amen in EPM who also isn't a slouch). The worst that happens is they say, "yeah it's a fair offer but we just like Amen", and then you move on to the next package.

But I'm also not going to be acting like I know what the Rockets specifically think of Amen Thompson. I know they like him a lot. It also matters how much they like Devin Booker, who has shown to be a guy who can get you 40 and the Rockets have nobody near (yeah, not even close) that offensive talent.

I'm guessing the Amen is untradeable sentiment here is just because of his last two games. I'm guessing people are seeing his stat lines while browsing reddit. Does it increase his value? Obviously. Would I be surprised if they turned Booker for him down? No.

Amen Thompson is already one of the best defenders in the league and he keeps simproving, and he's not a Mikal/Tucker type of good defender...we are talking about Khawi/Rodman's tier.

When you are that great at defense AND you have the tools and skills that he has being 21 years old his ceiling is out of this world. Jaylen Brown+.

I agree that Whitmore isn't that great but in that hypothetical trade we would get our picks back.

All our picks + Whitmore + FVV.

That's an awful trade lol. Jesus what's the matter with you? Easily just as bad as the KD trade or the Beal one. Worse even.

So you think Booker is a s*** player? Cause that's what you're saying with that offer.

Jalen Green
Jabari Smith
Cam Whitmore
Our picks

That's the minimum. We'll get that.

I wouldn't do the trade but I think it’s a realistic one, much more realistic than any trade involving Amen Thompson.

Picks + Jalen Green + Eason or Whitmore...I would be OK with that trade but like I said I think it's too good for the Suns because Jalen Green is already really good and he keeps improving.

[Saberestar]

Yeah we're getting robbed in that trade.

Yes, Amen is one of the best defenders in the league (his comparison isn't Jaylen Brown btw, it's Giannis). I know what kind of prospect he is because I was the person who was mentioning Amen last week before he had these last two games. Guess what? Booker is one of the best offensive players. When you have a top 10 offensive player at 28 years old you have an extremely valuable asset. Again there is no shame in starting the negotiation at that particularly when Booker is also literally exactly the kind of guy they will be looking for to finish building their contender (they have 0 shot creators).

Whitmore+Jalen Green+Picks is a fair starting point if the Amen call fails. Again, Whitmore is not a really high level prospect. That would be a Jones level type of move to only ask for Whitmore.

Yeah, I agree with you, obviously I would prefer to get Jalen Green + Whitmore (or Eason) + all our picks back.

My first impression is that Jalen Green has a HIGH value around the league with the way he is playing at 22 years old (23 next month) and on a fair long- term deal.

The difference between Jalen Green and Booker aren't three FRP + young prospect IMO.

I think you're overrating Green. He certainly has amazing physical tools and is still quite young, but there are reasons he wasnt a no-brainer max extension and there are still those who think hes a bad contract. He could have a Booker-like ceiling but still has a long way to go. I think Houston would jump at the chance to do Green, Whitmore, and the picks since it sends away their least favorite prospects.

IDK... he has fire in his game and he has improved on defense.

One of my favorite non-Suns players so probably I am overrating him and I am not self aware of it.

[Saberestar]

Read on Twitter

[Slim Charless]

Amen Thompson is already one of the best defenders in the league and he keeps simproving, and he's not a Mikal/Tucker type of good defender...we are talking about Khawi/Rodman's tier.

When you are that great at defense AND you have the tools and skills that he has being 21 years old his ceiling is out of this world. Jaylen Brown+.

I agree that Whitmore isn't that great but in that hypothetical trade we would get our picks back.

All our picks + Whitmore + FVV.

That's an awful trade lol. Jesus what's the matter with you? Easily just as bad as the KD trade or the Beal one. Worse even.

So you think Booker is a s*** player? Cause that's what you're saying with that offer.

Jalen Green
Jabari Smith
Cam Whitmore
Our picks

That's the minimum. We'll get that.

I wouldn't do the trade but I think it’s a realistic one, much more realistic than any trade involving Amen Thompson.

Picks + Jalen Green + Eason or Whitmore...I would be OK with trade but like I said I think it's too good for the Suns because Jalen Green is already really good and he keeps improving.

He's a fine player, Green is. He also plays the same position-SG as Book, while not being close to him as a player. Soooo either they bring Green off the bench (which he'll be pissed about) or move him. It just makes more sense to trade him. Now they can move him another team and recoup some of the stuff they send us, or they can send him to us. I agree with sunskerr and wouldn't be super happy to get him but we will need a SG and he CAN score. Either way, Booker is worth more than bench fodder Whitmore and FVV.

We get our picks back so we can tank.......and hopefully someday draft a guy who was as good as Booker?

That makes 0 sense, this is the franchise player and you can't give him away for a Big Mac and a 20 piece of McNuggets lol. Which is more or less what you're suggesting with that Whitmore/our picks back deal you put forth. Also this gives us Dunn, Whitmore and Greyson all off our bench at 2/3 so we then could package someone and Nurk maybe to get an upgrade at the 5

Also, FTR I don't necessarily agree that Amen is untouchable.

[bwgood77]

You trade for 36 year old Butler and give him a huge contract so you can squeeze into the play in? And then in subsequent years this team only gets older and worse.

That's been many players mentality since the bubble though. Squeeze into the play-in, and try to make a deep playoff run. The Heat have been doing that since Butler arrived into town. The Lakers were all about it with Lebron. The Nets tried that in KD's last year too. The Warriors. All of the older players have been trying to preserve themselves for the playoffs and it is ruining the NBA (personal opinion). I mentioned it before, but Booker's taken on this approach after having the Suns franchise winning record in 2021-22 season and losing to the Mavs. It's been many teams' formula since Silver changed to the play-in format.

I don't think any of those teams that you mention could have realistically had much of a higher seed though, which is why they didn't go anywhere.

The only reason Miami beat Milwaukee the bubble year is because of the break. The Bucks were rolling....probably the hottest team in the last decade when the season stopped, and then never were the same that year after the break.

I don't think LeBron's Lakers and Curry's Warriors are just trying to coast in the season and make the play in. I think they really want to win during the season. Both teams would love to have a top seed. With Jimmy, I know he often doesn't care...it's happened multiple times with him. So Phoenix is probably the perfect place.

One question, do you think the 4th in their crew when they go golfing during the season with Book, Butler and KD would be Barkley?

Did you see KD and Book at the end of the game last night?

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