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Suns Offseason Thread 4: Where's Terrence Williams?

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Re: Suns Offseason Thread 4: Where's Terrence Williams? 

Post#1841 » by bwgood77 » Thu Aug 13, 2015 2:44 am

Sunsdeuce wrote:Suns put themselves in a bad spot. Decided to build around the wrong players and wrong system. So many mistakes Ryan mcd has made and they are coming back to bite him in his A$$. First, you commit to Goran and from the start. Bledsoe (I'm sorry but Bledsoe ain't nothing special) should have been coming off the bench (he should have never started). Second, he committed to a bull$hit 2 PG system that has never worked (but he thinks he is smarter than everyone and it's going to work (ok Chip Kelly). Third, you don't resign Tucker and stop the development of younger players. Forth, you don't keep Morris twins, they we're average at best. Fifth, you don't sign IT and think he is going to be content coming off the bench. iT bitched about his playing time in sac town. I mean come on.

Ryan mcd struck gold or hit the jackpot or whatever you want to say for his first year. Now he is showing his inexperience in an extreme way. He has mishandled players situation extremely bad.

A lot of players are bitching and they all have one thing in common, they feel they were lied too. That starts with Ryan. Being a GM is more than just moving players like chess pieces!

This is what happens when you sign and move players around based on analytics. Takes the human element out of everything and causes drama which we are experiencing now.


I don't know that he decided to go with the 2 pg system, but that Hornacek worked with the players he had. But McD does seem to like point guards, so maybe it was his plan.

I agree that McD seems to be terrible at telling players what they want to hear and then doing otherwise and not being the first person to tell a player he was traded, which is a mistake (though he was probably worried the twins would kick his ass if he told them).

Obviously he needs to improve his communication skills. The problem is he learned from Ainge who built a championship team with assets and trades and always says people won't be traded and then trades them. The fact is, if he does it, and the team wins, no one will care if the people traded were pissed. I think he is smart with trades and draft picks, but lacks in the communication department, but I don't know if he wants to improve there.
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Re: Suns Offseason Thread 4: Where's Terrence Williams? 

Post#1842 » by Sunsdeuce » Thu Aug 13, 2015 2:46 am

I heard on azsports that the twins were cancers back at Kansas. I did a little research on them. Found this gem.

http://m.ljworld.com/news/2011/feb/15/recurring-twin-trouble-especially-disturbing/?templates=mobile

Warning signs all over the place with these two turds. It's funny because when you read it, you think your reading about them from last year. They never changed. They never will.
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Re: Suns Offseason Thread 4: Where's Terrence Williams? 

Post#1843 » by Moochthemonkey » Thu Aug 13, 2015 2:47 am

Sunsdeuce wrote:
Moochthemonkey wrote:
Sunsdeuce wrote:In the last three years these players have bitched about the Suns FO and have either left or were traded. They all basically said the Suns lied to them. I see a trend.

iT
Green
Goran
Frye
Marcus
markieff

(I could care less what the criminal brothers think)


When did Frye and Green bitch about the FO? Do you have a link.

You don't remember frye calling the front office liars about the contract stuff and IT laughing and joking after losses. It was mentioned on ktar that IT wasn't happy with his role.


No, I don't remember Frye calling the FO liars. What I remember was Frye feeling disrespected that the Suns went after IT and didn't want to match Orlando's contract. That's not exactly bitching about the FO, imo. And I know IT wasn't happy with his role, but I was asking about Green.
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Re: Suns Offseason Thread 4: Where's Terrence Williams? 

Post#1844 » by Sunsdeuce » Thu Aug 13, 2015 2:51 am

Moochthemonkey wrote:
Sunsdeuce wrote:
Moochthemonkey wrote:
When did Frye and Green bitch about the FO? Do you have a link.

You don't remember frye calling the front office liars about the contract stuff and IT laughing and joking after losses. It was mentioned on ktar that IT wasn't happy with his role.


No, I don't remember Frye calling the FO liars. What I remember was Frye feeling disrespected that the Suns went after IT and didn't want to match Orlando's contract. That's not exactly bitching about the FO, imo. And I know IT wasn't happy with his role, but I was asking about Green.


It was more greens agent.
http://www.azcentral.com/story/sports/heat-index/2015/04/09/gerald-greens-agent-fires-back-at-suns-jeff-hornacek/25514213/

http://mobile.sportingnews.com/article/4636002-goran-dragic-trade-nba-phoenix-suns-gerald-green-isaiah-thomas-archie-goodwin-knicks-lakers-celtics
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Re: Suns Offseason Thread 4: Where's Terrence Williams? 

Post#1845 » by saintEscaton » Thu Aug 13, 2015 2:55 am

Sunsdeuce wrote:Suns put themselves in a bad spot. Decided to build around the wrong players and wrong system. So many mistakes Ryan mcd has made and they are coming back to bite him in his A$$. First, you commit to Goran and from the start. Bledsoe (I'm sorry but Bledsoe ain't nothing special) should have been coming off the bench (he should have never started). Second, he committed to a bull$hit 2 PG system that has never worked (but he thinks he is smarter than everyone and it's going to work (ok Chip Kelly). Third, you don't resign Tucker and stop the development of younger players. Forth, you don't keep Morris twins, they we're average at best. Fifth, you don't sign IT and think he is going to be content coming off the bench. iT bitched about his playing time in sac town. I mean come on.

Ryan mcd struck gold or hit the jackpot or whatever you want to say for his first year. Now he is showing his inexperience in an extreme way. He has mishandled players situation extremely bad.

A lot of players are bitching and they all have one thing in common, they feel they were lied too. That starts with Ryan. Being a GM is more than just moving players like chess pieces!

This is what happens when you sign and move players around based on analytics. Takes the human element out of everything and causes drama which we are experiencing now.


Now now I agree with most of your post except we didn't have a traditional SG to play alongside a combo guard like Dragic when we signed him so it made sense to start Bledsoe alongside him. Of course signing IT was an ill-advised contingency plan that later became an unnecessary luxury that had to be accommodated at a costly expense (the short lived Three-Headed Hydra experiment). But McDuh lacked the foresight to realize that when push came to shove they wouldn't co-exist and he would have to choose between them. He seems to have outsmarted himself with all of his counter-intuitive wheeling and dealing and now its come to bite him in the ass. He had one surprise year but couldn't help himself with tinkering with it in order to discover whether it was a irreplicable fools gold or a sustainable formula for success. If it ain't broken don't fix it

Also there's no need to go full Vlade Divac here. Analytics should be taken with a grain of salt and put in context but not entirely disregarded as they provide an in-depth quantifiable model for predictive inference to fuel informed decision makers with competitive advantage to talent evaluators and executives who simply go by the eye test or surface level boscore stats. Moreyball is the perfect example of this although he might have went a little too far by essentially eliminating the emphasis on a midrange game. It can in deed work. I really doubt that McDuh for all the praise of being an unorthodox wonderkid/ "new breed" GM bases his personnel moves on analytics when he has failed to assemble a team with an offensive identity based around one of the two most effecient shots in the game (the long-range trey or taking the ball to the basket in the restricted area).
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Re: Suns Offseason Thread 4: Where's Terrence Williams? 

Post#1846 » by nevetsov » Thu Aug 13, 2015 2:55 am

bwgood77 wrote:
Damkac wrote:That may be Suns advantage: Al would play as a PF with better center than he ever had in Atlanta. Our chances are slim but who knows what will happens, especially if Suns would have good season and Hawks would disappoint.


Yes, that would be a HUGE get. Who knows what he likes? I'm not sure where he is originally from, but he went to Florida and is now in Atlanta so he is likely from the south.

I don't think Durant is going anywhere, so if that's the case, I'd throw everything at Horford. He could be a guy that would like to play with someone like Chandler in the middle.


Does he have kids? Time to throw a wad of cash at his baby momma to move to PHX.

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Re: Suns Offseason Thread 4: Where's Terrence Williams? 

Post#1847 » by Moochthemonkey » Thu Aug 13, 2015 2:56 am

Sunsdeuce wrote:
Moochthemonkey wrote:
Sunsdeuce wrote:You don't remember frye calling the front office liars about the contract stuff and IT laughing and joking after losses. It was mentioned on ktar that IT wasn't happy with his role.


No, I don't remember Frye calling the FO liars. What I remember was Frye feeling disrespected that the Suns went after IT and didn't want to match Orlando's contract. That's not exactly bitching about the FO, imo. And I know IT wasn't happy with his role, but I was asking about Green.


It was more greens agent.
http://www.azcentral.com/story/sports/heat-index/2015/04/09/gerald-greens-agent-fires-back-at-suns-jeff-hornacek/25514213/

http://mobile.sportingnews.com/article/4636002-goran-dragic-trade-nba-phoenix-suns-gerald-green-isaiah-thomas-archie-goodwin-knicks-lakers-celtics


Thank for the link. I don't think it's fair to say player's opinion = agent's opinion though. Players want money, personal success, and hopefully overall success for the team. Agents only want money, which is entirely dependent on the player's contract. So it makes sense that an agent is going to be critical of a player if he feels a coach is not utilizing the player to the fullest or makes a remark which can be potentially detrimental to future contract agreements.
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Re: Suns Offseason Thread 4: Where's Terrence Williams? 

Post#1848 » by bwgood77 » Thu Aug 13, 2015 2:59 am

Sunsdeuce wrote:I heard on azsports that the twins were cancers back at Kansas. I did a little research on them. Found this gem.

http://m.ljworld.com/news/2011/feb/15/recurring-twin-trouble-especially-disturbing/?templates=mobile

Warning signs all over the place with these two turds. It's funny because when you read it, you think your reading about them from last year. They never changed. They never will.


I worked with a guy about 4 years ago who went to Kansas, and he said these guys were bad news. It has obviously proved true. I'd still be a bit surprised if Kieff obviously tried to make the team worse on the court, and I also can't imagine just becoming a sudden **** to players in the locker room. I think he has to say he wants to be traded and is doing that.
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Re: Suns Offseason Thread 4: Where's Terrence Williams? 

Post#1849 » by Sunsdeuce » Thu Aug 13, 2015 3:06 am

bwgood77 wrote:
Sunsdeuce wrote:I heard on azsports that the twins were cancers back at Kansas. I did a little research on them. Found this gem.

http://m.ljworld.com/news/2011/feb/15/recurring-twin-trouble-especially-disturbing/?templates=mobile

Warning signs all over the place with these two turds. It's funny because when you read it, you think your reading about them from last year. They never changed. They never will.


I worked with a guy about 4 years ago who went to Kansas, and he said these guys were bad news. It has obviously proved true. I'd still be a bit surprised if Kieff obviously tried to make the team worse on the court, and I also can't imagine just becoming a sudden **** to players in the locker room. I think he has to say he wants to be traded and is doing that.

This is why GMs get weary of guys with troubled histories. Not everyone can be a success story like the honey badger (and as a fan I'm really proud of how far he has come as a person). But anyway, lance blanks strikes again. Lol
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Re: Suns Offseason Thread 4: Where's Terrence Williams? 

Post#1850 » by bwgood77 » Thu Aug 13, 2015 3:07 am

saintEscaton wrote: McDuh for all the praise of being an unorthodox wonderkid/ "new breed" GM bases his personnel moves on analytics


I agree with the rest of the post you made, but I don't know why some have the impression that McD is an "analytics" guy. He's not. He's a scout. Now he (or at least the team, probably because of Horny who is a numbers guy) have adopted analytics, but McD grew up as a film room guy and scout...he judges guys with eyes, not numbers. I think Hornacek is a bit different as he definitely will use the analytics, just by nature...he was an accounting major.

I think we are in the middle on analytics as a team, but as a GM, I think he is probably below the middle. That can be ok, if you just always get the best talent available, and maybe a draft pick turns into a superstar, or maybe all your good players result in a good trade.
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Re: Suns Offseason Thread 4: Where's Terrence Williams? 

Post#1851 » by saintEscaton » Thu Aug 13, 2015 3:11 am

bwgood77 wrote:
saintEscaton wrote: McDuh for all the praise of being an unorthodox wonderkid/ "new breed" GM bases his personnel moves on analytics


I agree with the rest of the post you made, but I don't know why some have the impression that McD is an "analytics" guy. He's not. He's a scout. Now he (or at least the team, probably because of Horny who is a numbers guy) have adopted analytics, but McD grew up as a film room guy and scout...he judges guys with eyes, not numbers. I think Hornacek is a bit different as he definitely will use the analytics, just by nature...he was an accounting major.

I think we are in the middle on analytics as a team, but as a GM, I think he is probably below the middle. That can be ok, if you just always get the best talent available, and maybe a draft pick turns into a superstar, or maybe all your good players result in a good trade.


I mean't he doesn't. I started that sentence out with "I doubt"
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Re: Suns Offseason Thread 4: Where's Terrence Williams? 

Post#1852 » by nevetsov » Thu Aug 13, 2015 3:13 am

Looking at the first month of the schedule, there are only a handful of starting PFs I'd be uncomfortable having Tucker guard:

DAL/ Nowitzki
POR/ umm... Vonleh maybe?
POR/ as above
LAC/ Blake
SAC/ ... Cauley Stein?
DET/ Ilyasova?
OKC/ Ibaka
LAC/ BG again
DEN/ Faried
LAL/ Randle
CHI/ Gasol
DEN/ Faried again
NOP/ Davis (ouch)
SAS/ Aldridge (ouch again)
NOP/ Davis
GSW/ Draymond

The only guys I can see PJ getting destroyed by would be Ibaka, Gasol, Davis x2 and Aldridge. Faried could give him grief, but how would he (or any of the others) guard PJ?

And honestly, how much better would Markieff be than PJ at defending the aforementioned guys? Pretty sure Davis, Gasol and Aldridge would destroy most guys they go up against.

So in reality, if we did trade/ suspend Keef, I would be semi-comfortable with PJ holding down the PF fort for a month. He will arguably defend as well as Markieff can, rebound better, and stretch the floor better, while creating a bigger mismatch.

Bledsoe, Knight/Archie
Knight, Booker
Warren, Weems
Tucker, Teletovic
Chandler, Len
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Re: Suns Offseason Thread 4: Where's Terrence Williams? 

Post#1853 » by Cutter » Thu Aug 13, 2015 3:22 am

Sunsdeuce wrote:I heard on azsports that the twins were cancers back at Kansas. I did a little research on them. Found this gem.

http://m.ljworld.com/news/2011/feb/15/recurring-twin-trouble-especially-disturbing/?templates=mobile

Warning signs all over the place with these two turds. It's funny because when you read it, you think your reading about them from last year. They never changed. They never will.

Also, I could have sworn Marcus got into some trouble while he was on the Rockets. I don't remember what it was, something small, but still petty thuggery if I remember correctly.

Trouble while in Kansas.
Trouble while in Houston.
Trouble, major problems, in Phoenix.

hmmmm, anyone seeing a pattern here?
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Re: Suns Offseason Thread 4: Where's Terrence Williams? 

Post#1854 » by Sunsdeuce » Thu Aug 13, 2015 3:22 am

nevetsov wrote:Looking at the first month of the schedule, there are only a handful of starting PFs I'd be uncomfortable having Tucker guard:

DAL/ Nowitzki
POR/ umm... Vonleh maybe?
POR/ as above
LAC/ Blake
SAC/ ... Cauley Stein?
DET/ Ilyasova?
OKC/ Ibaka
LAC/ BG again
DEN/ Faried
LAL/ Randle
CHI/ Gasol
DEN/ Faried again
NOP/ Davis (ouch)
SAS/ Aldridge (ouch again)
NOP/ Davis
GSW/ Draymond

The only guys I can see PJ getting destroyed by would be Ibaka, Gasol, Davis x2 and Aldridge. Faried could give him grief, but how would he (or any of the others) guard PJ?

And honestly, how much better would Markieff be than PJ at defending the aforementioned guys? Pretty sure Davis, Gasol and Aldridge would destroy most guys they go up against.

So in reality, if we did trade/ suspend Keef, I would be semi-comfortable with PJ holding down the PF fort for a month. He will arguably defend as well as Markieff can, rebound better, and stretch the floor better, while creating a bigger mismatch.

Bledsoe, Knight/Archie
Knight, Booker
Warren, Weems
Tucker, Teletovic
Chandler, Len

Tucker at PF......gross! I don't even wish that on my worst enemy.
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Re: Suns Offseason Thread 4: Where's Terrence Williams? 

Post#1855 » by lilfishi22 » Thu Aug 13, 2015 3:25 am

Sunsdeuce wrote:This is why GMs get weary of guys with troubled histories. Not everyone can be a success story like the honey badger (and as a fan I'm really proud of how far he has come as a person). But anyway, lance blanks strikes again. Lol

To be fair, even though I didn't like the pick at the time, Kieff did develope into a pretty solid PF and was mostly trouble free until this season. Not bad for a big man with the 13th pick.
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Re: Suns Offseason Thread 4: Where's Terrence Williams? 

Post#1856 » by saintEscaton » Thu Aug 13, 2015 3:32 am

lilfishi22 wrote:
Sunsdeuce wrote:This is why GMs get weary of guys with troubled histories. Not everyone can be a success story like the honey badger (and as a fan I'm really proud of how far he has come as a person). But anyway, lance blanks strikes again. Lol

To be fair, even though I didn't like the pick at the time, Kieff did develope into a pretty solid PF and was mostly trouble free until this season. Not bad for a big man with the 13th pick.


He never played up to his size. Calling him a "big man' is quite sparing. Anyways Kawhi probably doesn't turn into the two-way star he is now if we drafted him so maybe that'll helps Blanks and Co sleep a little. We've never had a great track record in player development anyways
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Re: Suns Offseason Thread 4: Where's Terrence Williams? 

Post#1857 » by DRK » Thu Aug 13, 2015 3:35 am

How about Kieff + Tucker+ 1st for Faried? Mike Malone would love to have PJ's defensive prowess on the team, and they get a better floor spacer to pair with Nurkic for the future.

We solve some rebounding problems at the 4 and grab a very high energy guy.
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Re: Suns Offseason Thread 4: Where's Terrence Williams? 

Post#1858 » by saintEscaton » Thu Aug 13, 2015 3:41 am

DRK wrote:How about Kieff + Tucker+ 1st for Faried? Mike Malone would love to have PJ's defensive prowess on the team, and they get a better floor spacer to pair with Nurkic for the future.

We solve some rebounding problems at the 4 and grab a very high energy guy.



I think Faried is a downgrade from Tucker in every department except crashing the glass/securing new possessions and creating second chance opportunities. And that first better not be one of our own or Miami's. Manimal is pretty horrid defensively solely relies on garbage buckets and doesn't have the offensive range to make up for being a tweener. Maybe I'd consider if its the Cleveland pick
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Re: Suns Offseason Thread 4: Where's Terrence Williams? 

Post#1859 » by Safety Pickle » Thu Aug 13, 2015 3:48 am

nevetsov wrote:Looking at the first month of the schedule, there are only a handful of starting PFs I'd be uncomfortable having Tucker guard:

DAL/ Nowitzki
POR/ umm... Vonleh maybe?
POR/ as above
LAC/ Blake
SAC/ ... Cauley Stein?
DET/ Ilyasova?
OKC/ Ibaka
LAC/ BG again
DEN/ Faried
LAL/ Randle
CHI/ Gasol
DEN/ Faried again
NOP/ Davis (ouch)
SAS/ Aldridge (ouch again)
NOP/ Davis
GSW/ Draymond

The only guys I can see PJ getting destroyed by would be Ibaka, Gasol, Davis x2 and Aldridge. Faried could give him grief, but how would he (or any of the others) guard PJ?

And honestly, how much better would Markieff be than PJ at defending the aforementioned guys? Pretty sure Davis, Gasol and Aldridge would destroy most guys they go up against.

So in reality, if we did trade/ suspend Keef, I would be semi-comfortable with PJ holding down the PF fort for a month. He will arguably defend as well as Markieff can, rebound better, and stretch the floor better, while creating a bigger mismatch.

Bledsoe, Knight/Archie
Knight, Booker
Warren, Weems
Tucker, Teletovic
Chandler, Len


Nowitzki can already shoot over nearly every 4 that tries to guard him, hes going to have a field day against 6-5 Tucker. Blake will
feast on him. I think Sac wants to play Cousins at the 4 while WCS plays 5, so Cousins will destroy him. Ibaka shouldn't have trouble. Faried is a hustle guy, so Tucker might do well against him. I have no idea how Randle is going to look. Gasol is old as hell but still a crafty player. Davis will absolutely buttblast him. Same with Aldridge. I don't think Draymond will go off on him, but he will put up his usual 14-16 point 8 boards.

I don't know man, I'm way less optimistic than you about our chances if we have to start Tucker at the 4. We're going to burn Chandler out in the first month forcing him to help on so many possessions if we have to do this. Assuming we don't bring in a quality starting 4, I'd just start Teletovic, play Tucker spot minutes at the 4 when we go small, give Len time at the 4 alongside Chandler, and pray Leur can give a solid 10-15 mins a night
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Re: Suns Offseason Thread 4: Where's Terrence Williams? 

Post#1860 » by Safety Pickle » Thu Aug 13, 2015 3:50 am

DRK wrote:How about Kieff + Tucker+ 1st for Faried? Mike Malone would love to have PJ's defensive prowess on the team, and they get a better floor spacer to pair with Nurkic for the future.

We solve some rebounding problems at the 4 and grab a very high energy guy.


I think the problem with Faried is that he has no range, so with him and Chandler both starting our spacing is going to be crap.

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