Draft Thread Part 2

[Saberestar]

McDermott?

[darealjuice]

McDermott?

Bingo

[bwgood77]

Well, their college stats are pretty darn similar:

Brown 14.6 pts, 5.4 reb, 2.0 ast, 0.8 stl, 0.6 blk, 3.1 tov, .431 FG%, .294 3P%, .654 FT% (6.4 FTA), .518 TS%, 17.6 PER
Archie 14.1 pts, 4.6 reb, 2.7 ast, 1.1 stl, 0.5 blk, 3.1 tov, .440 FG%, .266 3P%, .637 FT% (6.4 FTA), .509 TS%, 16.9 PER

I was also just reviewing Brown's March game #s as well, because I remember not being impressed whatsoever when he played AZ and AZ St at the end of the season as well as the conf tourney and one tourney game.

Last five games when they became more important:

@ AZ 2-9, 5 pts, 1 rebound, 1 assist, 2 turnovers and fouled out in 15 minutes
@ ASU 3-10, 10 pts, 0-3 from 3, 6 rebounds, 2 assists, 2 turnovers
Oregon St, 1-6, 8 pts, 1-3 from 3, 2 rebounds, 3 assists, 6 turnovers
Utah, 3-17,12 pts, 0-3 from 3, 5 rebounds, 5 assists 4 fouls
Hawaii, 1-6, 4 pts, 0-2 from 3, 2 rebounds, 0 assists, 7 turnovers, fouled out in 17 minutes

One thing you can definitely say about Brown is that he isn't clutch and plays his worst in big games.

Last 5 games, 10-48 from the field at 23% shooting overall.

Already deciding if someone is clutch? SMH.

Hield wasn't clutch in his last game, neither was Murray. Please show me where Bender was "clutch?"

I should go cherry pick Brown's stats, but it would be a waste of time. When I say something about a Bender its all gravy, but when I compliment Brown, the board goes crazy

I'm done commenting on Brown. If you don't like him, you will continue to not like him no matter what. There are a lot of people here who like him and are smart enough not to engage and trying to show the positives that have him rated top 5 because they know the people who don't like him will refute them incessantly.....too much

Edit: What's funny is, when I don't like a player and he is highly rated, for example Brown and Chris, I say to myself, what am I missing? Then I go look for the positives, then reassess. I think some posters here just think "you are crazy, he sucks and let me prove it."

I think a handful of posters go just as crazy on Bender hating and ignore any evidence, videos, evaluations etc.

I continue to go research Brown trying to find positives or positive comps because I WANT to like him. I just never really have come across anything yet. But I may be higher on Warren than most people, so another reason I don't care to get Brown is because I think Warren can turn into our starting 3 in the future.

It seems what most people like about Brown is PURELY his raw athleticism, even if that hasn't really converted into smart basketball and leads to tunnel vision, turnovers and terrible shots. I don't really like those things. I saw enough of that with the Suns last year. I like guys that can score from everywhere like Warren.

I know you're an athlete so you value having elite athleticism over all else, even if someone is a poor shooter and terrible at turning the ball over (Dunn and Brown).

I like Dunn better than Brown simply because he can do more like pass, and IS a good defender as opposed to "has the body and athleticism that could lead someday to being a good defender". Also, Dunn would be good insurance behind Bledsoe because of injury concerns there.

Even Vecenie who projects him at 4 now, wrote an article with 8 paragraphs of his weaknesses, but he hopes/thinks he can overcome those things.

I think Brown is probably one of the more polarizing prospects in the lottery. GMs likely either love him or don't like him at all. I have NO idea what McD thinks of him though. Part of me thinks he loves him BECAUSE he is exactly like a taller Archie, and part of me thinks he might want to pass on him because he just used a lotto pick two years ago on Warren and Warren has worked hard at improving his weaknesses and filling out his body over the last two years.

Honestly if we go with Brown I'd probably rather eventually try him at small ball 4 if he ever developed any other skills than trying to get to the rim. Hopefully if we take him he does a better job than Archie did with that.

[saintEscaton]

Too bad Rabb decided to stay in school, he probably would have cracked the Top 10 and would have been the third best PF behind Simmons/Bender ahead of Chriss

Yeah, I wasn't a huge Rabb fan, but he would have helped give us better or more options at 13.

Or better yet we would have taken him

[MrMiyagi]

Brown V. Goodwin and Bender V. Porzingis..... Screw both of them, take Buddy.

I found a player who played all four years and had similar stats to Hield as a senior and I think was national player of the year as well.

Side by side stats:

52.6% FG%, 56.7 2pt FG%, 44.9 3pt fg%, 86.4 FT%, 26.7 ppg, 7 rpg, 1.6 apg, 1.8 topg
50.1% FG%, 55.2 2pt fg%, 45.7 3 pt fg%, 88 FT%, 25 ppg, 5.7 rpg, 2 apg, 3.1, topg

Second player listed is Buddy. First player listed is also listed as 4 inches taller. Any guesses on who that might be?

You trying to compare Buddy and Doug McBuckets?

[darealjuice]

Yeah don't insult Doug Buckets like that

[bwgood77]

Brown V. Goodwin and Bender V. Porzingis..... Screw both of them, take Buddy.

I found a player who played all four years and had similar stats to Hield as a senior and I think was national player of the year as well.

Side by side stats:

52.6% FG%, 56.7 2pt FG%, 44.9 3pt fg%, 86.4 FT%, 26.7 ppg, 7 rpg, 1.6 apg, 1.8 topg
50.1% FG%, 55.2 2pt fg%, 45.7 3 pt fg%, 88 FT%, 25 ppg, 5.7 rpg, 2 apg, 3.1, topg

Second player listed is Buddy. First player listed is also listed as 4 inches taller. Any guesses on who that might be?

Jimmer Fredette?

No, but when I did my first search of highest scoring college basketball seasons he was listed #1. Jimmer actually averaged more ppg, apg and spg but was a bit below 40% from 3 and 50% from 2. 89.4% from line though and only 6'2. But I bet there was very similar talk about him coming into the draft as there is Hield.

[Zelaznyrules]

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/nba-mock-draft-cals-jaylen-brown-surges-into-top-4-would-be-great-fit-for-suns/

Jaylen Brown, SG, California: Brown has been much-discussed and somewhat maligned this draft season, with some teams questioning how much they want an intelligent, different-thinking player on their roster. While Brown also has some questions about his game, there's not much use in questioning his upside. At 6-7 with a 7-foot wingspan and tremendous explosiveness, Brown could become an all-star if things broke right for him. He's also a perfect fit next to Phoenix's two point guards or next to Devin Booker. Plus, you might even be able to use him as a small ball 4.

It's like some posters here hate other players sooooo much, because they want their player to be drafted, they just talked down the other player to the point where it makes no sense to me.

EVERY player has negatives. I don't player bash, I am looking at what they bring and can develop, not as if they are a finished product. If Brown develops, he'd be special, that's all you can ask for from your boom or bust player.

Someone said it best here, you don't draft safe at #4 especially when you are in our situation.

I don't "hate him" because I want someone specific lol I just don't want him. His game is just full of holes right now, he's literally Archie Goodwin with 2 inches added to every one of his measurements and a bigger body. He reminds me so much of Archie Goodwin when I see him player it's crazy. Even their highlight reels are similar. Every time I watched Cal games I came away thinking Ivan Rabb was the better player on the team.

If you're right I'm feeling even better being on the fringes of the Jaylen Brown bandwagon. One of the biggest things I don't like about Goodwin is that he simply isn't a guard but his build and his height relegate him to that position. If Archie's measurements were increased by 2 inches across the board and he was a much sturdier player he'd be a minutes eater in our lineup rather than the tease he's been. I see no reason why Brown can't help us immediately playing minutes at both the 3 and the 4. Maybe he becomes a star, maybe not, but IMO he's better suited for the NBA than someone like PJ and unlike Tucker his body matches his natural position.

[bwgood77]

Brown V. Goodwin and Bender V. Porzingis..... Screw both of them, take Buddy.

I found a player who played all four years and had similar stats to Hield as a senior and I think was national player of the year as well.

Side by side stats:

52.6% FG%, 56.7 2pt FG%, 44.9 3pt fg%, 86.4 FT%, 26.7 ppg, 7 rpg, 1.6 apg, 1.8 topg
50.1% FG%, 55.2 2pt fg%, 45.7 3 pt fg%, 88 FT%, 25 ppg, 5.7 rpg, 2 apg, 3.1, topg

Second player listed is Buddy. First player listed is also listed as 4 inches taller. Any guesses on who that might be?

You trying to compare Buddy and Doug McBuckets?

Just in shooting #s, But there overall #s across the board are pretty close.

[JMac1]

I was also just reviewing Brown's March game #s as well, because I remember not being impressed whatsoever when he played AZ and AZ St at the end of the season as well as the conf tourney and one tourney game.

Last five games when they became more important:

@ AZ 2-9, 5 pts, 1 rebound, 1 assist, 2 turnovers and fouled out in 15 minutes
@ ASU 3-10, 10 pts, 0-3 from 3, 6 rebounds, 2 assists, 2 turnovers
Oregon St, 1-6, 8 pts, 1-3 from 3, 2 rebounds, 3 assists, 6 turnovers
Utah, 3-17,12 pts, 0-3 from 3, 5 rebounds, 5 assists 4 fouls
Hawaii, 1-6, 4 pts, 0-2 from 3, 2 rebounds, 0 assists, 7 turnovers, fouled out in 17 minutes

One thing you can definitely say about Brown is that he isn't clutch and plays his worst in big games.

Last 5 games, 10-48 from the field at 23% shooting overall.

Already deciding if someone is clutch? SMH.

Hield wasn't clutch in his last game, neither was Murray. Please show me where Bender was "clutch?"

I should go cherry pick Brown's stats, but it would be a waste of time. When I say something about a Bender its all gravy, but when I compliment Brown, the board goes crazy

I'm done commenting on Brown. If you don't like him, you will continue to not like him no matter what. There are a lot of people here who like him and are smart enough not to engage and trying to show the positives that have him rated top 5 because they know the people who don't like him will refute them incessantly.....too much

Edit: What's funny is, when I don't like a player and he is highly rated, for example Brown and Chris, I say to myself, what am I missing? Then I go look for the positives, then reassess. I think some posters here just think "you are crazy, he sucks and let me prove it."

I think a handful of posters go just as crazy on Bender hating and ignore any evidence, videos, evaluations etc.

I continue to go research Brown trying to find positives or positive comps because I WANT to like him. I just never really have come across anything yet. But I may be higher on Warren than most people, so another reason I don't care to get Brown is because I think Warren can turn into our starting 3 in the future.

It seems what most people like about Brown is PURELY his raw athleticism, even if that hasn't really converted into smart basketball and leads to tunnel vision, turnovers and terrible shots. I don't really like those things. I saw enough of that with the Suns last year. I like guys that can score from everywhere like Warren.

I know you're an athlete so you value having elite athleticism over all else, even if someone is a poor shooter and terrible at turning the ball over (Dunn and Brown).

I like Dunn better than Brown simply because he can do more like pass, and IS a good defender as opposed to "has the body and athleticism that could lead someday to being a good defender". Also, Dunn would be good insurance behind Bledsoe because of injury concerns there.

Even Vecenie who projects him at 4 now, wrote an article with 8 paragraphs of his weaknesses, but he hopes/thinks he can overcome those things.

I think Brown is probably one of the more polarizing prospects in the lottery. GMs likely either love him or don't like him at all. I have NO idea what McD thinks of him though. Part of me thinks he loves him BECAUSE he is exactly like a taller Archie, and part of me thinks he might want to pass on him because he just used a lotto pick two years ago on Warren and Warren has worked hard had improving his weaknesses and filling out his body over the last two years.

Honestly if we go with Brown I'd probably rather eventually try him at small ball 4 if he ever developed any other skills than trying to get to the rim. Hopefully if we take him he does a better job than Archie did with that.

I never took Warren inconsideration If Warren can be the player I think he can, then I totally understand why you are on the Bender train. Can't believe I forgot about him

You could go small because both could play the 3/4 but Bender is a better fit next to Warren.

I prefer Bender now

[JMac1]

Still sitting here thinking about how I forgot about Warren.....smh, wow! Guaranteed we won't get Bender now!

[bwgood77]

If you're right I'm feeling even better being on the fringes of the Jaylen Brown bandwagon. One of the biggest things I don't like about Goodwin is that he simply isn't a guard but his build and his height relegate him to that position. If Archie's measurements were increased by 2 inches across the board and he was a much sturdier player he'd be a minutes eater in our lineup rather than the tease he's been. I see no reason why Brown can't help us immediately playing minutes at both the 3 and the 4. Maybe he becomes a star, maybe not, but IMO he's better suited for the NBA than someone like PJ and unlike Tucker his body matches his natural position.

You'd think if he had such good finishing ability he would have shot better than 48% from 2 pt range in college though. What makes you think he can score, and particularly score efficiently at the pro level if he couldn't do it in college?

[MrMiyagi]

I found a player who played all four years and had similar stats to Hield as a senior and I think was national player of the year as well.

Side by side stats:

52.6% FG%, 56.7 2pt FG%, 44.9 3pt fg%, 86.4 FT%, 26.7 ppg, 7 rpg, 1.6 apg, 1.8 topg
50.1% FG%, 55.2 2pt fg%, 45.7 3 pt fg%, 88 FT%, 25 ppg, 5.7 rpg, 2 apg, 3.1, topg

Second player listed is Buddy. First player listed is also listed as 4 inches taller. Any guesses on who that might be?

You trying to compare Buddy and Doug McBuckets?

Just in shooting #s, But there overall #s across the board are pretty close.

But to what ends? I mean, McBuckets is a 3/4 tweener whose shooting translated. His flaws were apparent - not big enough to really defend 4s and not fast enough to defend 3s. When a 6'5 guard gets 6 rebounds a night, it's because he's really active. When a big gets 7, you tend to question his level of activity. McBuckets was like a DH, and he still is. Buddy is like a power hitting outfielder.

[bwgood77]

You trying to compare Buddy and Doug McBuckets?

Just in shooting #s, But there overall #s across the board are pretty close.

But to what ends? I mean, McBuckets is a 3/4 tweener whose shooting translated. His flaws were apparent - not big enough to really defend 4s and not fast enough to defend 3s. When a 6'5 guard gets 6 rebounds a night, it's because he's really active. When a big gets 7, you tend to question his level of activity. McBuckets was like a DH, and he still is. Buddy is like a power hitting outfielder.

Fair enough.

[Zelaznyrules]

If you're right I'm feeling even better being on the fringes of the Jaylen Brown bandwagon. One of the biggest things I don't like about Goodwin is that he simply isn't a guard but his build and his height relegate him to that position. If Archie's measurements were increased by 2 inches across the board and he was a much sturdier player he'd be a minutes eater in our lineup rather than the tease he's been. I see no reason why Brown can't help us immediately playing minutes at both the 3 and the 4. Maybe he becomes a star, maybe not, but IMO he's better suited for the NBA than someone like PJ and unlike Tucker his body matches his natural position.

You'd think if he had such good finishing ability he would have shot better than 48% from 2 pt range in college though. What makes you think he can score, and particularly score efficiently at the pro level if he couldn't do it in college?

Are you asking me if I think he's a sure thing because it's obvious that he isn't (and neither is Ingram, Simmons, Chriss, Bender, Murray, Hield etc). He needs a jump shot and he needs to be able to make his free throws and eventually, he'll need to add a 3 point shot. But those are all things that have been accurately said about many a freshman that's gone on to big things in the NBA. If they like his head and heart, he's an easy pick IMO. That blend of size, build and athleticism opens a lot of doors.

I wish we were drafting him with the 13th pick as would normally be the case given his strengths and weaknesses but in this class, he won't make it out of the top 7. And I'd much rather gamble on a possible future star than settle for a run of the mill starter.

[Waylay13]

You'd think if he had such good finishing ability he would have shot better than 48% from 2 pt range in college though. What makes you think he can score, and particularly score efficiently at the pro level if he couldn't do it in college?

Perhaps the biggest difference is that he will much more likely be on a team that spaces the floor a great deal better then Cal did. In watching a number of the videos on Brown I have seen that whoever they are facing are packing in the paint (In one case I was able to count at least 5 opposing players within a step of Brown who still was able to get it in the hoop).

Just to be clear the #1 thing for the Suns to come out of this draft is going to be a power forward and then I think we can fill in small forward (Tucker will be gone soon) and a good back up point guard to cover for Bledsoe when he is done for half the season. When it comes to power forward Davis is still my favorite followed by Bender, Chriss, Skal, and Daillo. At small forward I rank Brown (man I wish Korkman has the mass to be a small forward) and then Luwawu and at point I am looking at Dejounte Murray, Dunn, GP2 and even Ulis. Outside of the top two it is clear it doesnt make much difference as all of these players are most likely going to be little more then role players. So a role player that is playing is still the BPA over a role player who isnt playing. Since we have a lot of depth at shooting guard I wouldnt touch a combo/shooting guard that wasnt more of a true point. If we can come away with 2 of the players above I think we can judge this draft a success but if we come away with a shooting guard and dont have trades lined up right away than it is time to fire McD.

[bwgood77]

If you're right I'm feeling even better being on the fringes of the Jaylen Brown bandwagon. One of the biggest things I don't like about Goodwin is that he simply isn't a guard but his build and his height relegate him to that position. If Archie's measurements were increased by 2 inches across the board and he was a much sturdier player he'd be a minutes eater in our lineup rather than the tease he's been. I see no reason why Brown can't help us immediately playing minutes at both the 3 and the 4. Maybe he becomes a star, maybe not, but IMO he's better suited for the NBA than someone like PJ and unlike Tucker his body matches his natural position.

You'd think if he had such good finishing ability he would have shot better than 48% from 2 pt range in college though. What makes you think he can score, and particularly score efficiently at the pro level if he couldn't do it in college?

Are you asking me if I think he's a sure thing because it's obvious that he isn't (and neither is Ingram, Simmons, Chriss, Bender, Murray, Hield etc). He needs a jump shot and he needs to be able to make his free throws and eventually, he'll need to add a 3 point shot. But those are all things that have been accurately said about many a freshman that's gone on to big things in the NBA. If they like his head and heart, he's an easy pick IMO. That blend of size, build and athleticism opens a lot of doors.

I wish we were drafting him with the 13th pick as would normally be the case given his strengths and weaknesses but in this class, he won't make it out of the top 7. And I'd much rather gamble on a possible future star than settle for a run of the mill starter.

Makes sense. I was about to post my current big board and do it with tiers, but your mention of no one being a sure thing has made me flip flop on all sorts of guys. I'm just not terribly high on anyone.

I do agree I'd rather gamble on a possible future star than settle for a run of the mill starter though, particularly with this draft, and there being so many guards at the top when guard is the leagues most loaded position as well as our current team's.

I guess Bender intrigues me the most because in that 3-7 tier he fits a position of need, probably has the highest upside and has great length. Also like guys with good court vision, and that is a big difference between Bender and Brown.

[saintEscaton]

Bender's length isn't that great. Among 4s his standing reach is top 5 percentile but not his wingspan, this has been argued for eternity in the draft forum and some won't accept the facts

[carey]

Side by side stats:

52.6% FG%, 56.7 2pt FG%, 44.9 3pt fg%, 86.4 FT%, 26.7 ppg, 7 rpg, 1.6 apg, 1.8 topg
50.1% FG%, 55.2 2pt fg%, 45.7 3 pt fg%, 88 FT%, 25 ppg, 5.7 rpg, 2 apg, 3.1, topg

Second player listed is Buddy. First player listed is also listed as 4 inches taller. Any guesses on who that might be?

That one's easy, Dougie McBuckets tho I thought AMMO for a second till a remembered he left as a Junior.

Edit: Oh I must have left my page open and forgot to refresh. Looks like people have spoiled the fun. :p

[bwgood77]

Side by side stats:

52.6% FG%, 56.7 2pt FG%, 44.9 3pt fg%, 86.4 FT%, 26.7 ppg, 7 rpg, 1.6 apg, 1.8 topg
50.1% FG%, 55.2 2pt fg%, 45.7 3 pt fg%, 88 FT%, 25 ppg, 5.7 rpg, 2 apg, 3.1, topg

Second player listed is Buddy. First player listed is also listed as 4 inches taller. Any guesses on who that might be?

That one's easy, Dougie McBuckets tho I thought AMMO for a second till a remembered he left as a Junior.

Edit: Oh I must have left my page open and forgot to refresh. Looks like people have spoiled the fun. :p

No, he played his senior year.

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/doug-mcdermott-1.html