2021-22 Season Discussion and Speculation

SunsRback4Good · Post #1881 » by **SunsRback4Good** » Sat Jan 1, 2022 4:02 am

Mulhollanddrive wrote:It'll be a miracle to beat Charlotte with this rotation, we were bad with Jalen Smith on the floor even if he had good stats.

We would have beaten Boston if Booker and Paul shot a bit better. Obviously it's more difficult winning on the road so we need Shamet and Payne to step up next game. Hopefully, Ayton and Crowder are back for Pel's game on Tuesday.

thamadkant · Post #1882 » by **thamadkant** » Sat Jan 1, 2022 4:35 am

Mulhollanddrive wrote:It'll be a miracle to beat Charlotte with this rotation, we were bad with Jalen Smith on the floor even if he had good stats.

Not primarily because of Smith's talent but because Celtics went big with Willams and Horford.

Ghost of Kleine · Post #1883 » by **Ghost of Kleine** » Sat Jan 1, 2022 6:45 am

Spoiler:

In the latest Empire of the Suns podcast, Kellan Olson mentioned Jalen didn't look good in practice and in the limited minutes he was given. It isn't simply because we assumed he was bad, it was because he was bad. If he can't show out in practice, how can you earn NBA minutes? I've mentioned this in the past but we're no longer the Suns of old where guys like Josh Jackson, Dragan Bender (and you know the rest) were likely not showing out in practice but because we had no one else better to play, we gifted them plenty of minutes that didn't earn in any way, shape or form.

The way we're handling Smith's situation isn't uncommmon either. A ton of young, unproven talent don't get the opportunity until injury, trade or never at all. FWIW, it hasn't been proven that it was a mistake not picking up his contract. When we get some more consistency and impact, he'll grow his value and perhaps prove it to be a mistake.

Olson mentioned Jalen didn't look good in practice

To be fair.....................

I'd much rather value actual in game minutes that mean something rather than to look at practice, wherein it's completely different than actual in game scenarios situationally and environmentally. And WHEN FINALLY GIVEN ACTUAL LEGITIMATE MINUTES beyond just garbage time, He's shown out pretty well.

It isn't simply because we assumed he was bad, it was because he was bad. If he can't show out in practice, how can you earn NBA minutes?

Eye of the beholder on whether he's good or bad I'd say! But I think it's fair to infer that most all rookies are relatively bad or at the very least struggle until they get acclimated to the speed and nuance of the game at this level. Also, I'm not sure that showing out in practice is actually a good metric to use. For example, Many mediocre players can look good in practice, but suck pretty bad when they finally get on the floor. Heck, even Shamet, Nader, Hutchinson have had situations wherein they looked really good in practice. However, they've still ended up struggling immensely in real game scenarios, and themselves looked pretty mediocre.

And we're talking about vets with vastly more NBA experience than a 2nd yr Smith whose already shown out in his first summer league, Whilst not even getting a summer league or training camp to develop with the team in his first year. So by that premise, I'm not sure that's really an accurate measure of legitimate potential/ impact in actual game situations either when you consider how much individual situations actually fluctuate depending upon a players' specific role and utilization. Please consider, when finally given live "in game" situational minutes other than just meaningless garbage time, He's shown out with double/ double production on multiple occasions. I'd say that's a pretty good jump for a 2nd yr rookie with little to no real development opportunities.

Again, For me, the whole practice metric should depend primarily upon how he's being utilized ( in practice scenarios), and specifically what role they have him in during those practices. I just think his specific role, even in practice determines his overall level of success. Is he actually being properly utilized for his skillset or talents. Is he possibly being misused (which does happen too). Also to be fair, I don't think 90% of rookies are going to necessarily look good in limited minutes at the start of their nba careers. They all have adjustments to make. So I'd personally look more to his sample in these games now that he has actual experience under his belt. As I've mentioned previously my arguments in defense of Smith, it's hard to look good from the bench! Unless your a movie star or model....lol. No really though................. If you never get playing time ( exposure) how are you supposed to legitimately substantiate your individual value.

I've mentioned this in the past but we're no longer the Suns of old where guys like Josh Jackson, Dragan Bender (and you know the rest) were likely not showing out in practice but because we had no one else better to play, we gifted them plenty of minutes that didn't earn in any way, shape or form.

Yes were not that team anymore. But IF we're not really willing to commit to a prospects actual development ( giving him quality minutes), then why are committing to that much salary ( for a 10th overall lottery pick)? Isn't it a waste of that salary to just have him sitting there without giving him a legitimate chance to develop properly or to contribute. Instead, if we're prioritizing vet players, Why didn't we actually trade that pick ( lottery asset) towards a better impact veteran option than any of Shamet, Hutchinson, or Payton. Why sit on that salary for over a year or more only to decide to let this kid walk anyways? Can you honestly say that in terms of production/ impact, That actual veterans with significantly more experience like Nader, Shamet, Payton, Hutchinson, or even Payne have been much better this season? Why by that measure should they deserve more minutes than Smith when they've played lousy. And this could very well be our last lottery pick for quite a while. Why waste it having him sit on the bench?

The reality is that just because Smith wasn't given actual significant minutes to showcase his abilities until this Covid scenario happened, Or even didn't show out in somewhat meaningless practice scenarios, that doesn't mean he doesn't still possess a very beneficial skillset for our team's needs, as well as significant upside too. And now we're finally getting to see it because of a technicality.

The way we're handling Smith's situation isn't uncommmon either. A ton of young, unproven talent don't get the opportunity until injury, trade or never at all.

Are you sure not picking up Smith's option is common practice? And not unusual or rare?
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.brightsideofthesun.com/platform/amp/2021/11/3/22759864/just-how-rare-is-phoenix-suns-declining-jalen-smiths-third-year-option

Looking at the league’s draft history, it’s rare for a team to decline a lottery pick’s third year... besides for one franchise.
By Brandon Duenas on November 3, 2021 12:00 pm@ZonaHoops_

Since the year 2009, only three players selected in the lottery have seen their third-year player option declined. Jalen Smith is one of those three. Can you guess the other two?
Let’s start with Kendall Marshall who the Suns selected 13th overall in the 2012 NBA Draft. Next up on this infamous list? None other than Earl Clark who the Phoenix Suns took with the 14th overall in 2009.
Zona (@ZonaHoops_) Tweeted:
Okay this is too hilarious not to share. The last three lottery picks to get their third-year rookie-scale options declined:

Jalen Smith (10th in 2020)
Kendall Marshall (13th in 2012)
Earl Clark (14th in 2009)

This is out of the entire NBA. It’s rare! Only six total since 2005.

Read on Twitter
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Considering there have only been six total lottery picks ever to join this company since 2005 and half of them (including all of the most recent ones) were picked by Phoenix, it’s quite remarkable.

There has been one constant in these decisions. I’ll leave it at that.

Lastly, I agree with you that a ton of young players may never actually get the opportunity to play, that most players are often overlooked, and If these players aren't getting playing time or those that never do, How as a franchise do you know what value that player potentially carries? I think that's negligence honestly. And really poor use of developmental assets such as the G league etc. But it is what it is I guess. :dontknow:

Ghost of Kleine · Post #1884 » by **Ghost of Kleine** » Sat Jan 1, 2022 8:45 am

FLEX From Jersey (@FlexFromJersey) Tweeted:
Blessing in disguise due to this Covid situation is the play of Jalen Smith! 19pts 7rbs 1blk on over 77% shooting in 25 minutes today. 11pts 14rbs 2 blk vs OKC. This kid is a double double every night once he gets the opportunity. Everything happens for a reason. Happy for Stix! https://t.co/MBeKEMneBT

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Ghost of Kleine · Post #1885 » by **Ghost of Kleine** » Sat Jan 1, 2022 8:53 am

Zona (@ZonaHoops_) Tweeted:
Bismack hive unite.

6’9” with a 7’6” wingspan, long boi szn. We’re ending 2021 with a BANG!

Read on Twitter

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Ghost of Kleine · Post #1886 » by **Ghost of Kleine** » Sat Jan 1, 2022 9:40 am

Evan Sidery (@esidery) Tweeted:
The last part mentioned here is interesting. Not a fan of using the last roster spot on Biyombo, unless the Suns had a 2-for-1 trade in mind before the deadline to bring another win-now piece for the bench.

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2 for 1 upgrade trade??? A " win now " piece!
Could Sidery be right. Who could that even be if Big Mac Combo is actually going to takeover Smith's 3rd string bench spot??

It'd have to be someone that can shoot and score well, as Biyombo offers nothing on offense. And is a terrible FT shooter.

Saberestar · Post #1887 » by **Saberestar** » Sat Jan 1, 2022 4:04 pm

I really like the addition of Biyombo.

Woj saying that he can stay longer than just ten days means that we are gonna evaluate him seriously and he could be our 15th man or allow us to trade other player.

He is actually 6'8 tall but he has a tremendous 7'6.5 wingspan and 9'3 standing reach so at the end of the day has solid size as a backup C.

Better option than Terry, Bass, Wainright...we needed desperately someone with enough size and experience to play minutes at C.

Mulhollanddrive · Post #1888 » by **Mulhollanddrive** » Sat Jan 1, 2022 7:30 pm

If it's true we're considering Biyombo for playoffs roster Jalen Smith must be looking forward to being traded, that would make him 6th option at Center?

Ghost of Kleine · Post #1889 » by **Ghost of Kleine** » Sat Jan 1, 2022 8:05 pm

I think regardless of our Covid situation, With our struggles that have been consistent since the beginning of the season and have yet to be addressed, We need to seriously reconsider discussions on trades for potential upgrades around the deadline. These three names standout the most to me still:

1- Eric Gordon.
To replace Shamet with actual consistent offensive production, Iso creation, limitless 3 pt range, free throw generation and leadership for our bench.

2- Chtistian Wood.
To replace Crowder in the starting lineup, So he can move to the bench, making our bench legitimately much stronger.
Payne/ Shamet/ Crowder/ Johnson/ McGee would be the strongest bench in the entire league. And a starting lineup of:
Paul/ Booker/ Bridges/ Wood/ Ayton.
Would great increase our frontline size, rebounding and overall versatility.
*** Could Theiss/ Augustine be an alternative cheaper option for our bench? :dontknow:

3- Jerami Grant.
Similar premise as Wood but not in terms of size, rather much stronger defensive versatility. And Crowder off the bench is still a big upgrade for that role.

Not sure of the trade dynamics (framework) needed necessarily. But all of these are things we should definitely entertain!

Frank Lee · Post #1890 » by **Frank Lee** » Sat Jan 1, 2022 9:23 pm

Those pesky trade dynamics

Post #1891 » by **bwgood77** » Sun Jan 2, 2022 1:13 am

Frankly I'm surprised with all the COVID replacements that Biyombo remained unsigned. He's not great but a hell of a lot better than any backup for Smith and a better starter in some circumstances.

Ghost of Kleine · Post #1892 » by **Ghost of Kleine** » Sun Jan 2, 2022 3:29 am

bwgood77 wrote:Frankly I'm surprised with all the COVID replacements that Biyombo remained unsigned. He's not great but a hell of a lot better than any backup for Smith and a better starter in some circumstances.

I think he remained unsigned primarily because of his lack of floor spacing and 44% FT shooting making him a liability in most critical scenarios? Today's nba and all prioritizing floor spacing versatile bigs. He's still a solid defender, rim runner and rebounding machine though. Although his lateral movement and perimeter defense is also a negative for him. But in a simplified post defensive and rebounding role, he could provide value?

I do wonder if this means though that we aren't targeting Young anymore now?

Ghost of Kleine · Post #1893 » by **Ghost of Kleine** » Sun Jan 2, 2022 4:34 am

Greg Harvey (@BetweenTheNums) Tweeted:
Most NBA Wins 2021 Calendar Year (Reg. + Playoffs):

1. Suns - 88
2. Bucks - 84
3. Jazz - 82
4. Nets - 75
T5. Clippers - 71
T5. 76ers - 71
7. Nuggets - 67
T8. Hawks - 64
T8. Warriors - 64
10. Grizzlies - 63 https://t.co/zO9Nym8GjH

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Ghost of Kleine · Post #1894 » by **Ghost of Kleine** » Sun Jan 2, 2022 5:36 am

InsideHoops.com (@InsideHoops) Tweeted:
Memphis Grizzlies sign Killian Tillie to a multi-year contract, and waive Sam Merrill: https://t.co/s1km1rQ6oK

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Many on here had to know this post was coming!!! :rock:

We need to jump on this right away! He's the perfect Shamet insurance/ potential replacement in the event of an eventual trade. Great 3rd string lethal SG sniper! He's 6'5 and can do everything that Shamet can do already, Only he's a better more efficient shooter on less usage and can be had for the minimum. :nod:

Check out his statistical comparison to Shamet:
https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm_finder.cgi?player_id2=merrisa01&player_id1=shamela01&sum=0&request=1

Watch on YouTube

We could really use more great offense and his incredible movement shooting as well. Picking him up off waivers ( waive Hutchinson)? And adding him to a two way, would allow us to package Shamet in a deal with Saric or Smith for a higher caliber impact upgrade player. Shamet is trade eligible ( with other players on July 1st 2022. But can be traded by himself for a player in the 9 million range thanks to his poison pill provision allowing us to take back his anticipated salary. I'm pretty sure that something around Smith/ Shamet/ Saric / 1st could land us either Jerami Grant or Eric Gordon. And either would be a massive upgrade positionally for us. In the meantime, We can have two lethal sharpshooters for our bench. Bolstering the scoring and drastically improve our 3pt shooting struggles for sure!

Spoiler:

Ghost of Kleine · Post #1895 » by **Ghost of Kleine** » Sun Jan 2, 2022 6:12 am

Shams Charania (@ShamsCharania) Tweeted:
Sources: Wood was benched to start the loss to Denver after missing a mandatory COVID-19 testing window. Lucas called out entire team at halftime, and focused on Wood's effort level. Porter had a heated exchange with the longtime assistant, and drove out of arena at halftime.

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Adrian Wojnarowski (@wojespn) Tweeted:
Full ESPN story with @espn_macmahon on Houston's Kevin Porter Jr., leaving arena early after halftime blowup with assistant coach: https://t.co/aTTjUwBRUe

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Things building towards a good trade opportunity to possibly get Wood and Porter Jr??
Saric/ Smith/ Nader 1st for Wood/ Porter Jr. Porter Jr can be a more versatile microwave scoring 6th man for our bench at backup guard/ small forward?
OR for
Wood/ KJ Martin Jr/ Nix.
Crowder can move to bench to help stabilize it further. And Wood gives us a dual position big that can give us much better size/ rebounding at the 4 between Bridges and Ayton. And then occasionally switch up the backup 5 ( share time with McGee)? But also give us some modicum of insurance against losing McGee in free agency next summer? KJ Martin would be a huge upgrade over Nader or Hutchinson. Nix could be a slight upgrade to Payton.

WeekapaugGroove · Post #1896 » by **WeekapaugGroove** » Sun Jan 2, 2022 6:22 am

Ghost of Kleine wrote:Shams Charania (@ShamsCharania) Tweeted:
Sources: Wood was benched to start the loss to Denver after missing a mandatory COVID-19 testing window. Lucas called out entire team at halftime, and focused on Wood's effort level. Porter had a heated exchange with the longtime assistant, and drove out of arena at halftime.

Read on Twitter
?s=20

Adrian Wojnarowski (@wojespn) Tweeted:
Full ESPN story with @espn_macmahon on Houston's Kevin Porter Jr., leaving arena early after halftime blowup with assistant coach: https://t.co/aTTjUwBRUe

Read on Twitter
?s=20

Things building towards a good trade opportunity to possibly get Wood and Porter Jr??
Saric/ Smith/ Nader 1st for Wood/ Porter Jr. Porter Jr can be a more versatile microwave scoring 6th man for our bench at backup guard/ small forward?
OR for
Wood/ KJ Martin Jr/ Nix.
Crowder can move to bench to help stabilize it further. And Wood gives us a dual position big that can give us much better size/ rebounding at the 4 between Bridges and Ayton. And then occasionally switch up the backup 5 ( share time with McGee)? But also give us some modicum of insurance against losing McGee in free agency next summer? KJ Martin would be a huge upgrade over Nader or Hutchinson. Nix could be a slight upgrade to Payton.

I wouldn't want either guy on this team. I've been saying for years that wood is fool's gold and this kind of **** is a good example why I just don't think he's a winning player.

Sent from my SM-G986U using RealGM mobile app

Bogyo · Post #1897 » by **Bogyo** » Sun Jan 2, 2022 7:48 am

^^^I wouldn't mind Wood, he'd be the upgrade in talent we need at the 4. I don't think he would cause any problems on our team.
However, we are not getting him with that pupu platter that you described up here. As always, please try to be somewhat realistic with your trade ideas, and keep it short(er).

Post #1898 » by **lilfishi22** » Sun Jan 2, 2022 7:57 am

I want Wood. I think we have the structure and the goals worth playing for to keep him focused and engaged. He's talented, has good size and does a lot of things we want/need.

Porter Jr...that's another story. I don't think he's close to being a contributor to a high level team because he's just too young, immature and hasn't learned how to contribute to winning basketball yet.

Ghost of Kleine · Post #1899 » by **Ghost of Kleine** » Sun Jan 2, 2022 8:10 am

Spoiler:

I wouldn't want either guy on this team. I've been saying for years that wood is fool's gold and this kind of **** is a good example why I just don't think he's a winning player.

Sent from my SM-G986U using RealGM mobile app

I wouldn't say that this specific situation is a valid indicator of Christian Wood being " fools gold" necessarily. I mean the guy has a right to be upset. After all he agreed to a sign 'n' trade believing he was going to actually get to play with James Harden and Eric Gordon, and actually be on a competitive team trying to get to the playoffs. Then not long after, The rockets trade Harden to the nets. Now he's once again on a lottery team that's actively trying to tank. Perhaps he's passionate about winning as most players are. And he's just tired of blatantly losing? Nevertheless, this season for the rockets, He still put up:

Since coming to Houston during free agency last year, Wood has been the Rockets' best player. He was on track to being an All-Star last year before a significant ankle injury derailed his season. ... This year, Wood has continued his great play, averaging 20.1 points, 12.1 rebounds, and shooting 39 percent from deep.
Nov 4, 2021

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thedreamshake.com/platform/amp/2021/11/4/22763169/is-christian-wood-houston-rockets-underappreciated

So he was still putting up near all star numbers whilst playing for a team that decided to change directions and tank instead of compete. I'd have no issues with those numbers and that kind of production in our anemic frontcourt honestly. I respect your opinion of course man. But for me personally, the idea of adding Wood to our starting rotation, allowing us to move Crowder to the bench too, whilst also giving us additional insurance against possibly losing McGee is solid value. Especially at only $13 million for 20 points and 12 rebounds.

I love the idea of these potential lineups.

Paul/ Booker/ Bridges/ Wood / Ayton.
Payne/ Shamet/ Crowder/ Johnson/ McGee.

Wood would give us great size and length in our frontcourt. Upgrade our rebounding, whilst not sacrificing our floor spacing. And being able to add Crowder to our bench would now make our bench legitimately very deep and possibly the strongest bench in the entire league.
Our 3rd string could be strong to by us just looking to add Sam Merrill off waivers. (Hutchinson can be let go)! And Merrill can sign on a two way if necessary.

Payton/ Merrill/ Nader/ Kaminsky/ Biyombo?
That would give us an absurdly deep and versatile roster. :nod:

As for Kevin Porter Jr, I'm intrigued by him. But not necessarily married to the idea. Although he does possess star potential, even though he's currently in a slump, and needs more development too.
https://rocketswire.usatoday.com/lists/2020-21-rockets-roster-review-offseason-outlook-kevin-porter-jr/

When Porter puts the total package together, as he did in his historic 50-point, 11-assist game in a win over Milwaukee (becoming just the fourth player in NBA history to score 50 prior to turning 21), he’s electric. Not only is Porter capable of creating his own shot on the perimeter or driving to the basket, he also shows excellent court vision and good instincts, with an ability to set up his teammates as a facilitator. Like former Houston star James Harden, who Porter happens to be close with, Porter is crafty with his footwork, allowing him to create separation

But I'd be more than ok with KJ Martin Jr honestly as he's got terrific upside. I just believe that KP Jr might be an easier get with this current conflict with Lucas. But the real prize for me is obviously Wood, for the reasons described above. :dontknow:

I also would still be very much on board with a Eric Gordon trade. Especially with Shamets' continuing struggles. Perhaps it takes Saric/ Smith/ Nader/ 1st? That'd be a huge upgrade to Shamet. Give us an additional ballhandler/ playmaker/ ISO creator, insurance against Paul injury as he could play off Booker too! And he has history with and is familiar with Paul too. It makes great sense honestly. :nod:

Ghost of Kleine · Post #1900 » by **Ghost of Kleine** » Sun Jan 2, 2022 8:35 am

lilfishi22 wrote:I want Wood. I think we have the structure and the goals worth playing for to keep him focused and engaged. He's talented, has good size and does a lot of things we want/need.

Porter Jr...that's another story. I don't think he's close to being a contributor to a high level team because he's just too young, immature and hasn't learned how to contribute to winning basketball yet.

Yeah! For Porter Jr, I only added him as a throw in mostly to have salaries match if necessary. I do like his longterm potential. But should honestly prefer KJ Martin Jr. He'd be a huge upgrade to Nader/ Hutchinson ( aside from 3 pt%).

Do you truly expect the Suns to win the finals this year?