Suns Offseason Thread V: I Am My Brother's Kieffer

[TeamTragic]

Acquiring Knight in the fashion McDo did, seemed like an 'all in' move. I think McDo jumped at the bait Riley put out, then got caught swap fever trying to replace Dragic. Seems like he could have toughed it out with Dragic, let him walk if need be, and kept the fLaker pick while signing Knight. Heck, we could have just finished the season sans Dragon.There did not appear to be much interest in BK, even from his own team.

What did Kidd not see in him that McDo does ??? Not sure I value Ryan's eye over future haller Kidd when it comes to PGs. In fact, I don't.

This move for Knight could be one of those defining moments a GM makes...either good or bad. I have to believe there are some major, multiple moves coming up. This is an incomplete team, neither posed for the playoffs or set up to cultivate youngsters. I have to side with Vegas on the O/U.... 36.5 seems about painfully and boringly right

I totally agree. Knight would not have been a guy I would've jumped on when he became available. I would've loved to have gone for an actual SG with an SG body but they seem intent on running with a very potent backcourt.

I also hated that we had to trade Ennis and the Laker pick for Knight.

Ennis who didn't have a place on this team and a massive question mark with an organization that is known to convince stupid teams to trade them their star for hot garbage. You sound really reasonable with your concern

[Puff]

He was a total failure with any pg not named Steve Nash.

That is absolute nonsense, as usual.

What does "as usual" mean? Are you saying my posts are always nonesense? I have never had that accusation made of me in years of posting on message boards.

DA without Nash 202 and 290
DA with Nash 253 and 136

We know what DAntoni is. He is a coach who at one time had a innovative system that focused on offense and very little on defense. He ran a very short rotation and tended to burn his best players out before the playoffs. He refused to take any input on improving the defensive side of the game. His teams were amazingly fun to watch and the basic concept was sound, but Steve Kerr and the Warriors perfected it by combining it with a competent defense.

As I said Nonsense - in regards to most every snipe you and others make in regards to MDA's career as a coach. It is worthless to provide the real facts in regards to his coaching history because you and almost everyone else has made up your mind.

You just happen to be wrong.

I can guarantee you that he would do a better job with this roster than Jeff Hornacek. To say he would not is really nonsense.

Thanks Bob.

[bwgood77]

That is absolute nonsense, as usual.

What does "as usual" mean? Are you saying my posts are always nonesense? I have never had that accusation made of me in years of posting on message boards.

DA without Nash 202 and 290
DA with Nash 253 and 136

We know what DAntoni is. He is a coach who at one time had a innovative system that focused on offense and very little on defense. He ran a very short rotation and tended to burn his best players out before the playoffs. He refused to take any input on improving the defensive side of the game. His teams were amazingly fun to watch and the basic concept was sound, but Steve Kerr and the Warriors perfected it by combining it with a competent defense.

As I said Nonsense - in regards to most every snipe you and others make in regards to MDA's career as a coach. It is worthless to provide the real facts in regards to his coaching history because you and almost everyone else has made up your mind.

You just happen to be wrong.

I can guarantee you that he would do a better job with this roster than Jeff Hornacek. To say he would not is really nonsense.

Thanks Bob.

Personally I think MDA was a great revolutionary coach. He had some faults, but he was another victim of doing SO well that expectations got way too high. I don't think he could do much with THIS team though. He needed the right team and a bunch of good shooters, and hopefully a premier finisher. I think he could do ok with this team as can Hornacek. His team had Nash, who obviously is legendary and 3 other top 10 picks in the starting lineup. He was equipped with more tools.

D'Antoni would do great with a bunch of lineups in the current NBA as well. Personally, I think Nash never becomes the Nash we know without D'Antoni. He never came close to having that amount of impact before D'Antoni.

[saintEscaton]

Acquiring Knight in the fashion McDo did, seemed like an 'all in' move. I think McDo jumped at the bait Riley put out, then got caught swap fever trying to replace Dragic. Seems like he could have toughed it out with Dragic, let him walk if need be, and kept the fLaker pick while signing Knight. Heck, we could have just finished the season sans Dragon.There did not appear to be much interest in BK, even from his own team.

What did Kidd not see in him that McDo does ??? Not sure I value Ryan's eye over future haller Kidd when it comes to PGs. In fact, I don't.

This move for Knight could be one of those defining moments a GM makes...either good or bad. I have to believe there are some major, multiple moves coming up. This is an incomplete team, neither posed for the playoffs or set up to cultivate youngsters. I have to side with Vegas on the O/U.... 36.5 seems about painfully and boringly right

I totally agree. Knight would not have been a guy I would've jumped on when he became available. I would've loved to have gone for an actual SG with an SG body but they seem intent on running with a very potent backcourt.

I also hated that we had to trade Ennis and the Laker pick for Knight.

Ennis who didn't have a place on this team and a massive question mark with an organization that is known to convince stupid teams to trade them their star for hot garbage. You sound really reasonable with your concern

LOL are you this delusional? No GM is immune from getting taken to the cleaners. Thats the risk you run when you play the high stakes game of wheelin' and dealin. So what McDuh fleeced a willing sucka in Rivers who was in over his head. But the rest of his tenure doesn't inspire much confidence. He didn't maximize the value of the pick when he cut bait and gifted away Ennis as a throw in.

[TeamTragic]

I totally agree. Knight would not have been a guy I would've jumped on when he became available. I would've loved to have gone for an actual SG with an SG body but they seem intent on running with a very potent backcourt.

I also hated that we had to trade Ennis and the Laker pick for Knight.

Ennis who didn't have a place on this team and a massive question mark with an organization that is known to convince stupid teams to trade them their star for hot garbage. You sound really reasonable with your concern

LOL are you this delusional? No GM is immune from getting taken to the cleaners. Thats the risk you run when you play the high stakes game of wheelin' and dealin. So what McDuh fleeced a willing sucka in Rivers who was in over his head. But the rest of his tenure doesn't inspire much confidence. He didn't maximize the value of the pick when he cut bait and gifted away Ennis as a throw in.

How about we continue this conversation when Ennis has done something in this league and Philly finally gets their pick?

[bwgood77]

Ennis who didn't have a place on this team and a massive question mark with an organization that is known to convince stupid teams to trade them their star for hot garbage. You sound really reasonable with your concern

LOL are you this delusional? No GM is immune from getting taken to the cleaners. Thats the risk you run when you play the high stakes game of wheelin' and dealin. So what McDuh fleeced a willing sucka in Rivers who was in over his head. But the rest of his tenure doesn't inspire much confidence. He didn't maximize the value of the pick when he cut bait and gifted away Ennis as a throw in.

How about we continue this conversation when Ennis has done something in this league and Philly finally gets their pick?

Yeah, no use on arguing too much over something that remains to be seen. lilfishi's original post mentioned he is skeptical. Obviously skepticism regarding moves before we see end results is expected. No reason to ridicule people on being skeptical. Lets see what happens.

Knight hasn't looked particularly good, but he did end up with a positive +/- tonight and ended up tied with the most assists, which helps facilitate the ball movement we need. I don't mind two pg lineups if it works, and it's not like Bledsoe has the endurance to play a ton of minutes....Ennis might end up good...that pick may turn out to be a good one...but the thing is, the FO wants this team to compete now, so waiting on all that to see IF it pans out is a question mark they decided were worth cashing in on a guy who has played well at times.

He does seem to be a net negative at times, but I don't know what other options were available, if any...at least at worst it gives us that secondary ball handler, even if he is sixth man who can distribute and hit shots. Personally I would rather play a guy like Weems with Bledsoe (if he can hit the 3 consistently) and put Knight more with Warren. Kieff looks like he really CAN hit the 3, so that opens up room for Warren in the starting lineup...if Bledsoe, Knight, Weems AND Kieff can hit it, then you have options, and then you have Leuer and Telly who can hit it too.

Sure they are not at the level of some of the premier teams, but they've shown that they have that ability, and they are young, so if they keep working at it, they should only improve.

If Warren can just get to a reasonable 3 pt %, I think he is all star material...but with the west guards and forwards so deep, that will be tough to crack for awhile.

And our best 3 pt shooter only played 3 minutes tonight and we still shot 55% from 3.

[bhawk]

Read this about Knight...

http://www.azcentral.com/story/sports/nba/suns/2015/10/10/brandon-knight-runs-clean-game-phoenix-suns-point/73743826/

[bwgood77]

So who has the great idea for a subject title for our next Suns talk thread, as we go into the season. Someone came up with this great thread title a month or two ago....any other great suggestions?

[Frank Lee]

Lot of IFs needed to come true for this to be a good team.

I still don't give a crap about what the MoBro does. The quicker we marginalize his contribution the better. Was unable to watch tonight....how is Lauer looking ? Scrub+ ?

[lilfishi22]

I also hated that we had to trade Ennis and the Laker pick for Knight.

Ennis who didn't have a place on this team and a massive question mark with an organization that is known to convince stupid teams to trade them their star for hot garbage. You sound really reasonable with your concern

I'm not saying we walked away with the lesser haul. My concern was that Knight may not be a good fit while giving up Ennis and that Laker pick which could turn out to be another top 5 pick, felt like a fairly big gamble considering the contract status of Knight at the time (RFA). I would've felt more comfortable rolling the dice with what we had and a traditional SG.

[bwgood77]

Lot of IFs needed to come true for this to be a good team.

I still don't give a crap about what the MoBro does. The quicker we marginalize his contribution the better. Was unable to watch tonight....how is Lauer looking ? Scrub+ ?

It seems at least tonight people played their roles well. Leuer has been pretty impressive. He came in for 16 minutes, pulled down 8 boards, was 3-4 from the field, 1-2 from 3, hit his free throws, and also had 2 assists and a steal. You can't really ask for much more than that from a guy like him.

The MoBro is important if we are expected to be competitive...I don't think Leuer and Telly can hold down the PF...throw Tucker in there...it's not enough. Kieff is solid..he has his weaknesses as does everyone.

This team is far from perfect, but they played well tonight and Booker had 3 minutes and he was one of our better players in previous games. Warren was crazy good.

[Frank Lee]

Dont kid yourself though.... Keif is a Kelley Girl.... as in Temp Help. We didn't sign both Leuer and TellySavalas to watch. The job is open in my opinion.

[bwgood77]

Dont kid yourself though.... Keif is a Kelley Girl.... as in Temp Help. We didn't sign both Leuer and TellySavalas to watch. The job is open in my opinion.

I guess it depends on your goal. If it is to make the postseason and/or increase Morris' trade value, he needs to play. Lets face it, he is a far better player than Leuer and Telly. If you play those guys major minutes, you are in trouble and likely not going anywhere. They have played very well in spot minutes, but you put those guys against Griffin, Aldridge, Serge, Durant, etc, you are in for some trouble. Kieff may not be the best defender, but he is decent, has a big body, is a bit intimidating and has an all around offensive game.

[lilfishi22]

How about we continue this conversation when Ennis has done something in this league and Philly finally gets their pick?

I'm fine with that. I was just giving my take on that situation, haven't passed judgement yet.

[Revived]

Ennis who didn't have a place on this team and a massive question mark with an organization that is known to convince stupid teams to trade them their star for hot garbage. You sound really reasonable with your concern

LOL are you this delusional? No GM is immune from getting taken to the cleaners. Thats the risk you run when you play the high stakes game of wheelin' and dealin. So what McDuh fleeced a willing sucka in Rivers who was in over his head. But the rest of his tenure doesn't inspire much confidence. He didn't maximize the value of the pick when he cut bait and gifted away Ennis as a throw in.

How about we continue this conversation when Ennis has done something in this league and Philly finally gets their pick?

Do you realize that right now, that LAL pick which Philly owns has more trade value than anything on the Suns roster? Forget Ennis, I agree he might end up an average joe at best but you can't just brush off that pick as if its nothing. If Knight was setting the world on fire with his play then sure but so far, he's struggled to even stay healthy despite having the best training staff that he's ever had in his NBA career and hasn't exactly looked good in pre season. On top of that he's on a $14M/yr contract for another FIVE freaking years.

[SunsFanSSOL]

LOL are you this delusional? No GM is immune from getting taken to the cleaners. Thats the risk you run when you play the high stakes game of wheelin' and dealin. So what McDuh fleeced a willing sucka in Rivers who was in over his head. But the rest of his tenure doesn't inspire much confidence. He didn't maximize the value of the pick when he cut bait and gifted away Ennis as a throw in.

How about we continue this conversation when Ennis has done something in this league and Philly finally gets their pick?

Do you realize that right now, that LAL pick which Philly owns has more trade value than anything on the Suns roster? Forget Ennis, I agree he might end up an average joe at best but you can't just brush off that pick as if its nothing. If Knight was setting the world on fire with his play then sure but so far, he's struggled to even stay healthy despite having the best training staff that he's ever had in his NBA career and hasn't exactly looked good in pre season. On top of that he's on a $14M/yr contract for another FIVE freaking years.

You're overrating the Lakers pick. There's a reason the Lakers decided to tank last season and not this season. There's a reason McD traded it for Knight. There's a reason the Bucks chose to trade Knight for MCW!!! instead of it. This year's draft is expected to be weak outside of Simmons and Brown and even those guys could fail to live up to the hype like Ben McLemore, Shabazz Muhammad, and to a lesser extent Archie Goodwin and Perry Jones did prior to college. I'm going to trust the Suns, Lakers and Bucks scouts and GMs who have been eying these players for years. Saying that pick has more value than anyone on our roster is simply untrue. The pick's value is MCW, whom, ignoring roster needs, I wouldn't trade Bledsoe, Knight, Chandler, Warren, Len, Booker, Keef for.

[Son of Ra]

Spoiler:

I think a person could argue that Hornacek has overachieved a bit given the talent he has been surrounded with. If you want a coach gone, you have to cite who you would replace him with. What available coach could come in and get more out of these players than Horny?

Its not the talent, its the system. I want someone to come in with a system that doesn't have two plays in its playbook..."run the fast break" or "pick and roll".

Hornacek knows no other plays other than fast break points. That's not fair to the players when their screwed if they can't out run the opponent every single time down the court because their coach doesn't know anything else.

Here's what Durant said about their new coach Donnovan:

Durant: Billy Donovan Running More Sets, More Movement In Offense

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/239559/Durant-Billy-Donovan-Running-More-Sets-More-Movement-In-Offense

Does Hornacek have a clue what ball movement is? I'm serious. We have been the among the bottom 5 every year under his tenure for assist/to ratio and even assists in general. And sets....I know for a fact that the only set Hornacek knows is a high pick and roll and fast break, that's it.

Not to mention his sick obsession of dual PGs is growing thin with some fans as well.

Amen

As I have said many times before. If you are honest with yourself the Phoenix Suns have not been fun to watch for a while. Quite frankly they have been a horrible watch on most nights since Gentry was fired. What I see of the current team is more of the same.

Agreed. ALL I am hoping for this season is a fun team to watch. I don't care if we go 0-82 as long as we are fun to watch (and the young guys get some real burn). So tired of having to make myself watch 82 of our games.

And here's to hoping that Hornacek is not looking to protect his record this season but solely focus on young player's development.

[SunsFanSSOL]

For everyone advocating against the dual PG thing, the Suns must have had some good intel or did some research about the way the game is heading because other teams are starting to do it. The Lakers with Clarkson and Russell, the Hornets with Walker and Lin, the Celtics with Smart and Bradley, and the Pistons plan on doing it with Jennings and Jackson. The Pacers with Hill and Ellis, the Magic with Payton and Oladipo the Wolves with Rubio and LaVine and the Rockets with Lawson and Harden also kinda do it too, except some of those guys you can classify as SG's, but not in the traditional sense. 2 ball handler lineups are the way of the future.

[Mulhollanddrive]

This is like the stretch 4 argument, how many of the past championship teams have won with dual pgs and stretch 4s.

[ImNotMcDiSwear]

Warren vs. Spurs highlights:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCkrJ-N_BOs