NavLDO wrote:bwgood77 wrote:AtheJ415 wrote:
Yeah, but in that year his team had drastically more wins to share, which impacts WS/48. Booker and the rest of the Suns should have worse WS numbers than him due to the team they play on. Same holds for the start of the 2nd year, even though Miami was bad when he was healthy. In fact, when Miami was bad at almost Phoenix's level (like they were to start his sophomore year), Winslow's WS numbers became negative and drastically worse than Chriss's.
Also, I'm not looking at just WS. ORtg-DRtg, shooting percentages, PER, TO%, Usage, all of it. The overall numbers for Winslow's career do not favor him over Chriss and certainly not over Booker. Bender is the only argument to make, but even then it is a bad one imo because Bender was supposed to be a huge long-term project where as Winslow was supposed to be an immediate contributor.
I think it's pretty rare rookies are expected to be much of an immediate contributor. It's also pretty rare that a rookie grades out above avg defensively like Winslow did, so he definitely contributed on that end, right away. But yes, he can't shoot, so yes, that's a problem. He's basically on par with Stanley Johnson so far.
I think it's typically easier to improve on offense than it is on defense though.
You and AtheJ are having an excellent Debate; each bringing up great points. Sorry for the interruption, but I thought it was interesting that when I looked at the entire NBA, listed by OBPM, there were some names down there that, considering their 'hype', 'status', and heck, even 'contract', for some, really have no business being down -3.0 or lower:
Trey Lyles
Brandon Ingram
Jaylen Brown
Alec Burks (good reason for his declining minutes since 2014)
Jahlil Okafor (surprise, right?)
Noah Vonleh
Chandler Parsons
Players with Offsetting DBPM of 1 or higher:
Jerami Grant (Close enough...DBPM of .9)
Len
Wesley Johnson
Kriss Dunn
the 'aforementioned-by-BW'- Stanimal
MCW
Biyombo
Motiejunas
Of course, there are others...these are the ones that jumped out at me.
One item I will add though, is that I disagree that it's 'pretty rare' for rookies to grade out above avg defensively; many rookies that were defensively minded in college come in and perform/grade out well defensively in their rookie seasons:
Nogueria
Gobert
O'Quinn
Noel
Giannis
Embiid
Dunn
...and even Chriss graded out as even, and I do not believe he was highly touted for his defense.
So, point is, it's not rare at all, unless your point was rookies are more likely to come in more 'offensively sound' than 'defensively sound' in their play. That, I would agree with...but not that it's rare for rookies to come in and post positive numbers defensively.
You may now continue your regularly scheduled programming
It is pretty rare for a rookie wing to be good defensively. You can have all the tools to be a great defensively but still come short( Wiggins). So, Winslow was as advertised. Great defender with a lot of work on the offensive side. On a great offensively talented roster like Cleveland, he would be like a Swiss knife.
the kid says he is 6"10.5 
, oooohhhh my!!! Wide open basketball man!!!!
