Suns Offseason Thread V: I Am My Brother's Kieffer

[Qwigglez]

Warren vs. Spurs highlights:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCkrJ-N_BOs

At 1:47 does Kieff double dribble or was he chasing down a rebound? I can't tell.

[batsmasher]

What happens if we actually win games? Does the universe implode? I wish I was around in 2010 to see if there were people still complaining about the team.

[Revived]

For everyone advocating against the dual PG thing, the Suns must have had some good intel or did some research about the way the game is heading because other teams are starting to do it. The Lakers with Clarkson and Russell, the Hornets with Walker and Lin, the Celtics with Smart and Bradley, and the Pistons plan on doing it with Jennings and Jackson. The Pacers with Hill and Ellis, the Magic with Payton and Oladipo the Wolves with Rubio and LaVine and the Rockets with Lawson and Harden also kinda do it too, except some of those guys you can classify as SG's, but not in the traditional sense. 2 ball handler lineups are the way of the future.

Smart, Bradley, Ellis, Oladipo, Lavine, and Harden are all true SGs.

I have more PG skills than all of them except maybe Harden so perhaps Suns should start me at point then.

[Revived]

What happens if we actually win games? Does the universe implode? I wish I was around in 2010 to see if there were people still complaining about the team.

Ugh it's so freaking sad that we have to think five freaking years back to think of the last time this team was even a playoff team.

Really wish/hope they end this drought this year and get in somehow so can finally watch some relevent basketball in late April/May.

[batsmasher]

What happens if we actually win games? Does the universe implode? I wish I was around in 2010 to see if there were people still complaining about the team.

Ugh it's so freaking sad that we have to think five freaking years back to think of the last time this team was even a playoff team.

Really wish/hope they end this drought this year and get in somehow so can finally watch some relevent basketball in late April/May.

There are plenty of franchises that would envy the winning record the Suns have. Don't take it for granted, this team is lucky to have been as good as they were over the last 10 years.

I say this because sometimes the negativity around here can come off as crazy entitlement. Despite how bad this team has been by its own standards, those standards are bloody high and we shouldn't be as hard on every one and thing this organisation does.

My first season as a Suns fan was the 25 win season, I don't even know what playoffs look like for the Suns. But I love this team and what they're doing. If ya don't, I guess there's a bandwagon somewhere to join so ya can feel the winning ways again (I'm not talking directly to you SF).

Those are my 2 cents.

[bwgood77]

This is like the stretch 4 argument, how many of the past championship teams have won with dual pgs and stretch 4s.

The Heat pretty much did so. LeBron pretty much operates at a point, as does Wade, in addition to their PG, and Bosh turned into more of a stretch. Many of the teams' primary ball handler these days have two point guards. Harden basically operates as more of a point as well. The Cavs these days too...not that these teams have won a championship yet, and of course they don't have two undersized point guards. I think the primary problem is lack of elite talent. I don't think, given the same players, that if the system was slightly different, we would be significantly better, if better at all.

[bwgood77]

For everyone advocating against the dual PG thing, the Suns must have had some good intel or did some research about the way the game is heading because other teams are starting to do it. The Lakers with Clarkson and Russell, the Hornets with Walker and Lin, the Celtics with Smart and Bradley, and the Pistons plan on doing it with Jennings and Jackson. The Pacers with Hill and Ellis, the Magic with Payton and Oladipo the Wolves with Rubio and LaVine and the Rockets with Lawson and Harden also kinda do it too, except some of those guys you can classify as SG's, but not in the traditional sense. 2 ball handler lineups are the way of the future.

Yes, Lowe had an article a while back about how more teams are going with more good ball handlers, but of course it's good if they can stretch and shoot well also. Having more ball handlers isn't a bad thing. Having subpar shooters is.

I don't think the problem is having two ball handlers in the back court. But the jury is out on exactly how good Knight is. If there is a problem starting both of them, it's because he's not as good as we had hoped. Hopefully he finds his way with the team though. At worst, we should always have at least a pretty good PG on the floor.

[jcsunsfan]

What happens if we actually win games? Does the universe implode? I wish I was around in 2010 to see if there were people still complaining about the team.

Yes. People complain about the team at all time. I doubt complaining would go away unless they are 82-0. Even then people would be fretting about upcoming free agents, keeping everyone happy, lack of draft picks, small ball wins in the reg season but never a championship etc.

[jcsunsfan]

Warren vs. Spurs highlights:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCkrJ-N_BOs

At 1:47 does Kieff double dribble or was he chasing down a rebound? I can't tell.

Truly enjoyed those highlights. I was surprised and encouraged by Warren's defense. He has a sort of relaxed way of always being in the action.

[letsgosuns]

Suns are supposedly interested in signing the recently waived guards Ryan Boatright and Jimmer Fredette. I do not understand considering the Suns already have Bledsoe, Knight, Weems, Booker, Goodwin, and Price. Who knows what they want to do. Anyway, here is the article: http://www.hoopsrumors.com/2015/10/suns-hornets-blazers-interested-in-ryan-boatright.html

[Qwigglez]

We could use another three point threat.

[JacobHoward]

I wouldn't mind signing Jimmer. He could definitely get some minutes if Archie and TJ don't improve their shooting and if Knight continues to struggle.

My question is what in the world happened to him last season? His last year with Sacramento, he shot nearly 50% from three! But last season he shot less than 20%. Anyone know what that was all about?

If we do sign him, I think Horny could probably help him fix whatever was wrong with his shooting last season.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

[Grots]

It might have made a little bit of sense to give him a try if we didn't draft Booker. As it is, it's probably his agent spreading a fake rumor of interested parties.

[Frank Lee]

Dont kid yourself though.... Keif is a Kelley Girl.... as in Temp Help. We didn't sign both Leuer and TellySavalas to watch. The job is open in my opinion.

I guess it depends on your goal. If it is to make the postseason and/or increase Morris' trade value, he needs to play. Lets face it, he is a far better player than Leuer and Telly. If you play those guys major minutes, you are in trouble and likely not going anywhere. They have played very well in spot minutes, but you put those guys against Griffin, Aldridge, Serge, Durant, etc, you are in for some trouble. Kieff may not be the best defender, but he is decent, has a big body, is a bit intimidating and has an all around offensive game.

Its very simple.... Is Leuer a better defender ? A better rebounder ? He appears to be a pretty decent 3pter. I see him and Telly splitting 24 mins, and frankly, each of them control their time with their contribution. Sure, for now MoBro will be the crunch timer... but that is just... for now.

MoBro is vastly over rated here. He was the #1 option by default last yr. Not so this yr. His solo act wont fly. I bet his minutes drop along with his importance.... right up to his departure. Question is, when and for whom.... and package with whom.


(Obviously, IMO, we will be getting some Kieff-relief and soon)

[jcsunsfan]

Dont kid yourself though.... Keif is a Kelley Girl.... as in Temp Help. We didn't sign both Leuer and TellySavalas to watch. The job is open in my opinion.

I guess it depends on your goal. If it is to make the postseason and/or increase Morris' trade value, he needs to play. Lets face it, he is a far better player than Leuer and Telly. If you play those guys major minutes, you are in trouble and likely not going anywhere. They have played very well in spot minutes, but you put those guys against Griffin, Aldridge, Serge, Durant, etc, you are in for some trouble. Kieff may not be the best defender, but he is decent, has a big body, is a bit intimidating and has an all around offensive game.

Its very simple.... Is Leuer a better defender ? A better rebounder ? He appears to be a pretty decent 3pter. I see him and Telly splitting 24 mins, and frankly, each of them control their time with their contribution. Sure, for now MoBro will be the crunch timer... but that is just... for now.

MoBro is vastly over rated here. He was the #1 option by default last yr. Not so this yr. His solo act wont fly. I bet his minutes drop along with his importance.... right up to his departure. Question is, when and for whom.... and package with whom.


(Obviously, IMO, we will be getting some Kieff-relief and soon)

I think it is the opposite. I think Morris is underrated by most Suns fans.

[thamadkant]

This is like the stretch 4 argument, how many of the past championship teams have won with dual pgs and stretch 4s.

The Heat pretty much did so. LeBron pretty much operates at a point, as does Wade, in addition to their PG, and Bosh turned into more of a stretch. Many of the teams' primary ball handler these days have two point guards. Harden basically operates as more of a point as well. The Cavs these days too...not that these teams have won a championship yet, and of course they don't have two undersized point guards. I think the primary problem is lack of elite talent. I don't think, given the same players, that if the system was slightly different, we would be significantly better, if better at all.

The Heat had a unique starting 5 that you dont see often, maybe once every 20 years.
When you have 3 Team MVPs (leaders, clear best players/stars of a team) teaming up...
Lebron James being the best basketball player on the planet who can play 4 positions well, Wade who can play 2 positions just as well... and Bosh who can also slide between PF and C and be a star also.

That team is unique, hardly any comparisons.





James Harden?
6'5 James Harden, who is the leagues best Shooting Guard at the moment.... who happens to be an excellent ball handler so he can play point guard?. Not to mention, he is crafty as heck, he does his damage using high IQ, skills and craftiness.... did I mention he is 6'5?

Bledsoe 6'1 and Knight 6'3 is undersized... no way around it.
Knight's game is also much much closer to typical scoring PGs, rather than James Harden who actually plays the PG position closer to a Point Forward.... front facing the ring, main goal is to either get an open lane to drive, shoot or kick out to the open shooter when the defense collapse. He doesnt play traditional PG role, like a Kidd or a Nash, who dribble around setting up players 2-3 plays ahead.

Ironically, James Harden is what McD is hoping Knight can turn to.... because Harden would be perfect next to Bledsoe. Bledsoe's straight-out athleticism, explosion type plays next to Harden's side to side, smooth, crafty and deeper range would be immaculate for the Suns at the moment. Prime Ginobili would also be ideal.


If Suns really want a Harden-type, I'd ring the Lakers for D'Angelo Russell.... even if he doesnt reach Harden's level (chances are, he wont), but his game style can suit the Suns "two" PG setup.... Russell is 6'5, can shoot, pass.. relies on vision, craftiness more than sheer athleticism to get by.

[thamadkant]

With that said:

Knight, Morris, Tucker
for
D'Angelo Russell, Randle

Suns
C: Chandler / Len
PF: Randle / Teletovic / Leuer
SF: Warren / Bogdanovic / Booker
SG: Russell / Booker / Goodwin / Bogdanovic
PG: Bledsoe / Russell / Goodwin


lol
Does Lakers say no or Suns?

[bwgood77]

Spoiler:

This is like the stretch 4 argument, how many of the past championship teams have won with dual pgs and stretch 4s.

The Heat pretty much did so. LeBron pretty much operates at a point, as does Wade, in addition to their PG, and Bosh turned into more of a stretch. Many of the teams' primary ball handler these days have two point guards. Harden basically operates as more of a point as well. The Cavs these days too...not that these teams have won a championship yet, and of course they don't have two undersized point guards. I think the primary problem is lack of elite talent. I don't think, given the same players, that if the system was slightly different, we would be significantly better, if better at all.

The Heat had a unique starting 5 that you dont see often, maybe once every 20 years.
When you have 3 Team MVPs (leaders, clear best players/stars of a team) teaming up...
Lebron James being the best basketball player on the planet who can play 4 positions well, Wade who can play 2 positions just as well... and Bosh who can also slide between PF and C and be a star also.

That team is unique, hardly any comparisons.





James Harden?
6'5 James Harden, who is the leagues best Shooting Guard at the moment.... who happens to be an excellent ball handler so he can play point guard?. Not to mention, he is crafty as heck, he does his damage using high IQ, skills and craftiness.... did I mention he is 6'5?

Bledsoe 6'1 and Knight 6'3 is undersized... no way around it.
Knight's game is also much much closer to typical scoring PGs, rather than James Harden who actually plays the PG position closer to a Point Forward.... front facing the ring, main goal is to either get an open lane to drive, shoot or kick out to the open shooter when the defense collapse. He doesnt play traditional PG role, like a Kidd or a Nash, who dribble around setting up players 2-3 plays ahead.

Ironically, James Harden is what McD is hoping Knight can turn to.... because Harden would be perfect next to Bledsoe. Bledsoe's straight-out athleticism, explosion type plays next to Harden's side to side, smooth, crafty and deeper range would be immaculate for the Suns at the moment. Prime Ginobili would also be ideal.


If Suns really want a Harden-type, I'd ring the Lakers for D'Angelo Russell.... even if he doesnt reach Harden's level (chances are, he wont), but his game style can suit the Suns "two" PG setup.... Russell is 6'5, can shoot, pass.. relies on vision, craftiness more than sheer athleticism to get by.

My whole point though is that it's not so much the system as it is the players. Yes, all those guys are stars, and if we had one or two of them with multiple ball handlers or people running the point, the system wouldn't be a problem.

Having said that, I'd be happy with Weems starting (based on the limited play of his that I've seen) and having Knight come off the bench. Or maybe even Tucker and Warren starting at 2/3 if we are playing a team like Houston and GS and need a pesky defender on Harden or Thompson.

[bwgood77]

With that said:

Knight, Morris, Tucker
for
D'Angelo Russell, Randle

Suns
C: Chandler / Len
PF: Randle / Teletovic / Leuer
SF: Warren / Bogdanovic / Booker
SG: Russell / Booker / Goodwin / Bogdanovic
PG: Bledsoe / Russell / Goodwin


lol
Does Lakers say no or Suns?

I don't really think we could trade any combo of players on our team for those guys. If we offered Len, Warren and Bledsoe they'd probably still hang up. I'm not saying I'd even think about doing the trade I just mentioned from our side, but they are going to be really vested in their own picks.

[lilfishi22]

This is like the stretch 4 argument, how many of the past championship teams have won with dual pgs and stretch 4s.

The Heat pretty much did so. LeBron pretty much operates at a point, as does Wade, in addition to their PG, and Bosh turned into more of a stretch. Many of the teams' primary ball handler these days have two point guards. Harden basically operates as more of a point as well. The Cavs these days too...not that these teams have won a championship yet, and of course they don't have two undersized point guards. I think the primary problem is lack of elite talent. I don't think, given the same players, that if the system was slightly different, we would be significantly better, if better at all.

+1

The game of basketball is an evolving game. Look at the SSOL Suns for example. We were revolutionary at that time with our brand of high pace, flowing offense. We didn't win in the end because in that era of the league, it just wasn't enough. Now look at the Warriors doing the exact same thing we've done with the exception of a significantly improved defense. The "boring" Spurs have changed their game to suit the the more athletic and faster NBA. There was that article in the other thread about the average NBA team's averaging more 3 attempts than the prime SSOL Suns team. What was the old adage? You can't win with the 3 ball? Yet, almost every team is putting a bigger emphasis on the 3 ball because the game is evolving.

It's been written that right now is the golden age of PG's, where the PG role has expanded past just being a floor general. PG's nowadays are do-it-all basketball players, scoring, defending, passing and you could argue that they are also bigger and more athletic than ever before. There's no reason why with those skill sets, more teams can't be playing with a dual-PG line up. Are we perhaps too early to the party? Maybe, who knows.