Season Speculation, Trade Ideas & Discussion Pt. 5

[NavLDO]

I'd trade TJ for Gordon

No way. Seriously?????

TJ is locked into a bargain deal, is still improving, and is a quiet/humble guy.

We'd trade him only to max AG? Pass. Easy pass!

Thats why Orlando would want him.
Gordon isn't screaming to get out of Orlando or demanding a trade. His value is higher than Chriss(project) and Miami pick(low 20's?).

If the magic think Isaac is their future 4 then they may want a locked in 3.

Other than being locked in, what you said about TJ applies to Gordon as well, except he fits the immediate need of being a good 4 while we have JJ waiting to take that spot as starter.

And I think this gets overlooked far to often by fans, including me, when looking at trade ideas. I always try to think of it as you are trading 50% Player and 50% Contract.

Warren locked up at $12.5M per for 4 years beyond this one is SOOO much more valuable than Warren, the upcoming RFA. That part, people are pretty good at noticing, but future years and money vs production is the issue I see over-looked.

Warren @ $12.5M is a steal. If it was Warren @ $15M, then I'd say, yeah, that's an average deal.

So, if we trade Warren, then the team acquiring him needs to view him as a Net + in the deal.

So Chriss, Mia 1st, and Warren seems fair for a guy about to get paid. I'm not a huge fan of that deal, because I like Warren.

But the reasoning is sound...

Doncic / Booker / JJ / Gordon / Goga

Goga Bitadze -- My NEWEST Draft darling...He's all of 18.5-YO...6'11" , 250lbs with a 7'2" Wingspan already...he's likely still growing like Book and Warren, but he's already got an NBA body, and can drain a 3 and block shots. He's 2nd Rd for sure, due to how raw he is.

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[BobbieL]

OKC could use another 3 pt shooter...I've noticed this their last two games. I don't know much about Terrance Ferguson but he is a young prospect who they start with Roberson out but he isn't giving them much. I don't think they'd do it but they might if they really want to go all in this season and worry about the future...would you trade Daniels for Ferguson?

Yes.

I think there is a market for Daniels at a pretty cheap rate of 3.5m next year. Also might give the Suns a better long term asset for the summer

[Wilber85]

I'm a little surprised at the poll results, unless it's just an AZ thing or an injury thing....because Parker last year was better than Gordon this year across the board...slightly fewer rebounds but better everywhere else and the much higher rated prospect. I guess Gordon is a tad better defensively.

http://bkref.com/tiny/sjppJ

Not that I'm sure I want either...certainly not enough to trade assets for if we can just give them a RFA offer.

Gordon is more than just a tad better defensively than Parker. Jabari is one of the worst defenders in the league at his position and Gordon at the worst can hold his own.

I'd only take Parker if it was for cheap.

Omg this is ridiculous .... Gordon was the best defensive player on his team. He also was guarding the best players on the other team until this year .

His athleticism makes him a good defender and he can guard 1-5 ....

Google Aaron gordon defense from last year . He was once one of the best defenders . His role changed this year but he would be the best defender on the Suns if he came over . If Jabari came over he wouldn’t even be a top 5 defender on the Suns

[hollywood6964]

Nope, prime players are 28 years old or so and Booker is only 21 we are going to get to enjoy playing till he is around 34. I would rather take 13+ years of Booker then 4 to 10 of Magic, Kobe or Kareem.

Please stop. 2 of the three are top 5 players all time, n the other is top 10. Let's not get crazy.

So you dont think that Booker has the possibility to have a career like Kobe? I do. I also believe that a full career of a top level superstar (15 years) is better then only 4 years of a all time player. 15 > 4 maybe you missed out on that simple math.

I'm not going by your guidelines of 4 yr primes. Most times great players are in their primes for about 8 years total. I'd take a prime known quantity of magic, Kobe or Kareem over an unknown (injury, regression, selfishness, non/little progression) quantity of Booker anyway. Again all three are top ten all time greats.

N do I think he can be as good as magic? No.
Kareem? No.
Or the bottom player, Kobe? No. Since you inquired about kobe- he was an elite defender, even by 21 he was very good, Booker sucks.
He was a better playmaker, Booker is actually ok, but not close. Anyone can bring up stats, but to reference title contending, triangle offense Laker teams stats to this garbage time every game Booker revolved offense is a joke. I go by eye test most of the time, n it holds true, nearly every time.
There's more, but whatever, takes too much time. I'm not saying Booker can't end up being a great player, hell I wouldn't trade him, but the gun is being jumped here, big time.

[Frank Lee]

Why bother with any of these deals?
We do not need to compile any more 2nd rounders. And Gordon doesnt look like the guy I'd want to invest gazillions in.... not at the expense of top picks (this year or in the future)

This years off season is all about the our first pick... again. The free agent selection is marginal at best. No need to f-up the cap space. Save it for the mid season trade talks as we will have Dudley and Chandler to barter with and flexibility to absorb $. We do not really have tradable pieces other than Warren (no) and may be a couple of mid/late picks. Keep them.

Two noteworthy additions will be Williams back at C and Knight at PG. But the strategy is simple and will be based on where we end up on lotto day.

Two solid picks, two contributing returning players..... and a head coach.

Thats all we need.

I see the constant talk of 'contending' pieces... contending players... getting a #2 and #3 to complete 'the big three'... man you guys are way ahead of yourselves. The first step is to play good, the second is to win and get into the playoffs. Contending only comes after that. Usually a year + if you are lucky. make the playoffs next year... getting deeper in them the following one... we have seen it. Its the way things are.

[BobbieL]

Why bother with any of these deals?
We do not need to compile any more 2nd rounders. And Gordon doesnt look like the guy I'd want to invest gazillions in.... not at the expense of top picks (this year or in the future)

This years off season is all about the our first pick... again. The free agent selection is marginal at best. No need to f-up the cap space. Save it for the mid season trade talks as we will have Dudley and Chandler to barter with and flexibility to absorb $. We do not really have tradable pieces other than Warren (no) and may be a couple of mid/late picks. Keep them.

Two noteworthy additions will be Williams back at C and Knight at PG. But the strategy is simple and will be based on where we end up on lotto day.

Two solid picks, two contributing returning players..... and a head coach.

Thats all we need.

I see the constant talk of 'contending' pieces... contending players... getting a #2 and #3 to complete 'the big three'... man you guys are way ahead of yourselves. The first step is to play good, the second is to win and get into the playoffs. Contending only comes after that. Usually a year + if you are lucky. make the playoffs next year... getting deeper in them the following one... we have seen it. Its the way things are.

I agree with much of this about being patient. Knight coming back - -how good will he be. Not sure - hard to count on him. Williams though - pretty good bargain and under $6m and you know what you are getting.

Agree about Chander and Dudley as being able to trade.

The one thing with the Magic - they are leveraged from a cap perspective. They have that Biyombo contract - wonder if they would move Biyombo for Knight as part of a Gordon bigger trade - it saves them a bit of money. Fournier would probably be more enticing to move but his contract is longer. If the Suns could move Chandler - maybe you take on Biyombo for Knight to entice the Magic - unless they like Biyombo

Suns should have a top 5 pick; they will have 14m of cap space; 21m if they renounce Len, future draft picks and expiring contracts - this summer Ryan McD should be a big time player in the draft, free agency and trades.

Based on what BWG said about Daniels to the Thunder

OKC: Daniels

Magic: Knight, Bender, Terence Ferguson, Heat pick, Milwaukee Pick,

Suns: Biyombo, Houston and Aaron Gordon

All if the Suns found a taker for Chandler

[NavLDO]

Read on Twitter

I would trade for Gordon without hesitation. He has everything that we want...he is young, he is improving every year, he is a good defender and great athlete, he is a hard worker, he can space the floor at PF....

We have the money to pay him next season, we are not gonna have better options to pay for.

I would offer them Bender or Chriss and Miami or Mil pick. Probably both picks if necessary or even a little more.

I wholeheartedly agree.

http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=yajvebnb

We take on an additional year AND 7 mil total with Biyombo, but hey, we need a Center anyway, that's spent more time in this Century than the last???

[Qwigglez]

If a team did trade for AG before the deadline, they could still offer the 5 year max right? Not sure if it's still the 8% raise, but we did sign Knight to a 5 year deal, and the Rockets signed Harden to a 5 year deal when he was still on his rookie contract.
Anyway, I could see the incentive for a team to trade for AG now rather than waiting til the summer and possibly having the Magic match. Watching Gordon highlights, he reminds me of a smaller, but faster Blake Griffin. He can scatch and shoot the three off a screen, which I don't think Griffin really can, he has the ball handling ability that Griffin has. Though he doesn't seem to be able to pass like Griffin or has the basketball IQ of Griffin. We were interested in him over the summer though, so I could see the front office trying to strike a deal.

[Waylay13]

Why bother with any of these deals?
We do not need to compile any more 2nd rounders. And Gordon doesnt look like the guy I'd want to invest gazillions in.... not at the expense of top picks (this year or in the future)

This years off season is all about the our first pick... again. The free agent selection is marginal at best. No need to f-up the cap space. Save it for the mid season trade talks as we will have Dudley and Chandler to barter with and flexibility to absorb $. We do not really have tradable pieces other than Warren (no) and may be a couple of mid/late picks. Keep them.

Two noteworthy additions will be Williams back at C and Knight at PG. But the strategy is simple and will be based on where we end up on lotto day.

Two solid picks, two contributing returning players..... and a head coach.

Thats all we need.

I see the constant talk of 'contending' pieces... contending players... getting a #2 and #3 to complete 'the big three'... man you guys are way ahead of yourselves. The first step is to play good, the second is to win and get into the playoffs. Contending only comes after that. Usually a year + if you are lucky. make the playoffs next year... getting deeper in them the following one... we have seen it. Its the way things are.

Personally any plan that counts on Knight being productive is doomed to failure.

[NavLDO]

If acquiring Gordon would help entice big name FA stars like Paul George to consider the Suns... Im on it.

That's the big "IF," though, isn't it??

He's not established like some of the others we've discussed on this forum. This is his 1st good year, and I'd say, he's not at the level of Booker in 'quality of play' nor 'notoriety' around the league. Booker has not been able to attract/entice any stars to come here, so I doubt Gordon would. The question would be, if by ADDING Gordon, would playing alongside Booker now seems worth coming to town and staying here?

If we have, after the draft...

Shai Gilgeous-Alexander / Booker / JJ / Gordon / Bamba

???

a) Did we do enough, in the Summer, to attract a 'Star-player' to come to Phoenix to play alongside Booker and the rest??

b) Do we really NEED a star player to come in???

We seemingly will have addressed our biggest concerns in the draft and with Gordon (I assume we would have traded Chriss or Bender, plus Warren, and possibly taken on Biyombo, while giving them Chandler, to get Gordon.)

Maybe we still do not feel settled at PG, but who do we go after?

IT - Huge injury risk, and still, size concerns
Payton - Is he REALLY a star in the making??

That's it. Paul is a non-starter due to age, and well, he wouldn't come here, anyway.

[ImNotMcDiSwear]

Don't know it this is the appropriate place for this, But there are some bigs that may interest the celts in the mid 1st rd. Would Marcus Smart be enough incentive to move to the Heat's spot at 22 from the celts #! say 28

You can't trade Smart in June. He won't be under contract.

[Kerrsed]

Don't know it this is the appropriate place for this, But there are some bigs that may interest the celts in the mid 1st rd. Would Marcus Smart be enough incentive to move to the Heat's spot at 22 from the celts #! say 28

So Smart/Celtics 1st for Mimai 1st?

I think i would do that. You get the greenlight from me.

[Kerrsed]

Don't know it this is the appropriate place for this, But there are some bigs that may interest the celts in the mid 1st rd. Would Marcus Smart be enough incentive to move to the Heat's spot at 22 from the celts #! say 28

You can't trade Smart in June. He won't be under contract.

Why wait till June when we could do it now. Also, he has a team option for next season, so its as easy as them saying yes to the team option.

[ImNotMcDiSwear]

Don't know it this is the appropriate place for this, But there are some bigs that may interest the celts in the mid 1st rd. Would Marcus Smart be enough incentive to move to the Heat's spot at 22 from the celts #! say 28

You can't trade Smart in June. He won't be under contract.

Why wait till June when we could do it now. Also, he has a team option for next season, so its as easy as them saying yes to the team option.

Nope. Marcus is up for an extension. He's an RFA next season. If he's traded now, we'd have to go through the RFA process. Don't think that's advisable for us, for Marcus or for the Celtics - who have a chance to get to the finals this season.

[bwgood77]

I think this max contract for Gordon talk is crazy. Other than maybe Brooklyn trying to pry away a player by considerably overpaying again like they did the last few off-seasons no team is gonna offer him a max. GMs have learnt from their and everyone else's mistakes during the pre cap increase off-season.
Look at all these crazy dead weight deals out there hamstringing teams now.
No way Gordon is a max player in 2018.

But those are the exact deals Agents point to in negotiations. "If X player is making $XM per, surely my client is worth more than that two years later with a higher Salary Cap."

Insert names/numbers (avg season) like:

Porter Jr. / $26.5M
Barnes / $23.5M
Parsons / $23.5M
Deng / $18M
Bazemore / $17.5M

So, when these guys are making this much, that's easy pickens for his agent. Then, he can liken his play to the most recent Max Forward, Blake Griffin? Sure, Griffin is better. But he's also nearly 29. It's easy for an Agent to say...

"...but when Griffen was Gordon's age, their numbers were nearly identical, except Gordon already has a 3 Pt shot. 18/8, with Blake having a slight edge in Assts at 3.7 to 2.2. But FT%, PF, and TOV all favor Gordon, so that's a wash. You might just have the next Blake Griffin on your hands!!"

Now, I'm not saying I believe this...I'm just saying that agents are trained for these scenarios. Their masters at distancing their clients from comparisons to other players when it's not favorable, but when it is, oh yeah, they are all over it, I bet. It's like selling/buying homes and using 'comps'. His agent will be able to explain why Gordon is none of those 'one-hit wonders' that got them the contracts they have, but how his client is more worthy then they were to even get those contracts.

I'm not saying his agent will be successful, just that he has loads of ammunition as to why Gordon is worth the Max...or close to it.

Those guys got those contracts when the cap jumped from $70 million to $94 million, or the year before when people knew that cap jump was coming. Now many agents are getting screwed when they they try to hold out for these types of contracts because teams have realized their mistakes...guys have gotten screwed...George Hill who turned down 4/88 and Noel who turned down big money among others who ended up getting screwed. The Cs made nothing last summer for the most part. Teams have realized their mistakes. That's why when you compare what Len or Monroe or whoever should make by bringing up guys like Mozgov and what they are paid, it's not a good argument. Obviously teams realized in hindsight that the cap wouldn't keep going up and they screwed themselves. And had to give away Russell.

In your example, Porter was the only guy that was somewhat worth it, but they only gave him that much because Brooklyn overpaid like they have been doing and had to match.

Now I do think Gordon will get paid a pretty hefty talent because I think he can be very good since they played him out of position for awhile, but I think the Magic are partially floating his name to diminish what people might offer him in RFA, and then they perhaps won't have to max him like Porter got and can match a lesser 4 year offer or be in a good negotiating position. Or, maybe they think Isaac is the better long term bet so it doesn't make sense to pay him a lot. I think there is a pretty good chance they keep him though and don't have to pay him quite the max.

And then in your next post I see you said you'd trade Warren, Chriss AND the Miami pick for Gordon, a RFA? Firstly, we can offer him a deal up to what we are willing to pay, and this is just like the Knight deal...trading for a RFA doesn't make sense unless you are willing to give them the max or near max.

As I've shown above, he is subpar defensively, among PFs and although he is better offensively this year, he's not anything really special.

[NavLDO]

What about Chriss and our pick top 6 protected for Gordon?

I would consider that.

Your kidding right? We are talking about Aaron Gordon right? He has not made his team better any year in the league and Chriss is going to be the better player by himself. Again one of 4 players ever with 80/80/80 before 21 years old. No no no and no. They are open to trading him because Isacc is going to be the better player and the Magic know it, plus someone is going to overpay for Gordon and it isnt going to be the Magic.

http://www.nba.com/suns/history/marquese-chriss-makes-nba-history-suns-defeat-mavs#gref

80?? Pfffff Hundred, bra!

Seriously, though. Do you honestly believe, that because he was given an opportunity to start for 115 games in the NBA before the age of 21, because he came out early and extremely young, that since he managed to hit this 'odd' statistic, placing him in a group of four with Lebron, Durant, and Kobe, that this means he going to be anything like them??? Or some star-phenom?

You claim that Gordon hasn't made his team better in the league, well neither has Booker or Warren. Does that mean they aren't good players and not worth trading for? Somehow, I get the distinct impression that if it was Booker that was on Orlando, and we had to trade Chriss for him, you'd be ok with that, right??

Isaac is on Orlando...Vucevic...Fournier...shoot, Oladipo was, and he was traded with Sabonis for Ibaka. He didn't make the Magic better.

But back to Chriss; he might end up being a better player, but right now he demonstrates only to be an athletic, pouty, out-of-control-at-times player at times, who just so happens to have been lucky enough to be younger than 98% of lottery players picked and able to start from Game 1, stay healthy, relatively, and be athletic enough to get that 100/100/100 deal. But that is one small little piece. But let's also take a look at what their season's looked like that year...

http://bkref.com/tiny/jeKFI

Notice the guy with the fewest PPG? Oh yeah, I added Gordon's age 20 season as well...he hit that 100/100/100 when he WAS 21, not 20, but then again, he only started 45 games...not 115, like Chriss...

Now look at the advance stats at the bottom...the only guy to have negative BPM?? Yep, Chriss. Who is last in about EVERY category...by, like, a lot? Chriss. PER, WS, VORP, TS%, USG%, ASST%...so on and so forth...

Did I mention i added Gordon's 2nd season in there, BEFORE he was good like, this season?

http://bkref.com/tiny/OPph2

So, sorry if I'm not on the Chriss hype-tran quite yet just based upon a Record that uses totals and age as it's main factors.

I hope Chriss makes it, and I am with you in that he can, but he's nowhere CLOSE to being there. Like, 2-3 seasons away, AFTER we get our PG/HC situation figured out.

[BobbieL]

If a team did trade for AG before the deadline, they could still offer the 5 year max right? Not sure if it's still the 8% raise, but we did sign Knight to a 5 year deal, and the Rockets signed Harden to a 5 year deal when he was still on his rookie contract.
Anyway, I could see the incentive for a team to trade for AG now rather than waiting til the summer and possibly having the Magic match. Watching Gordon highlights, he reminds me of a smaller, but faster Blake Griffin. He can scatch and shoot the three off a screen, which I don't think Griffin really can, he has the ball handling ability that Griffin has. Though he doesn't seem to be able to pass like Griffin or has the basketball IQ of Griffin. We were interested in him over the summer though, so I could see the front office trying to strike a deal.

I am looking at Spotrac for salaries and using the ESPN Trade Machine to try to come up with a deal that would help the Magic out cap wise as part of a trade for Gordon. And boy, did the former GM - Hennessy ?) - do a horrible job. Biyombo, Augustin, Fornier with long term deals. Terence Ross even got three years

I know the NBA with the cap has gone up but still need to manage it wisely.

I was trying to figure out a way to take a contract back but Fournier is a SF so doesn't work moving Knight for that one; Biyombo - do not need another Center unless they wanted to take Chandler to get out of longer term debt (that would save them quite a bit of cash). Augustin is signed for two more years - so not good either.

IF Fournier could morph into SG part of the time- I would take him for Knight as that saves the Magic considerable cash over three years and I think Fournier would be better than Knight

So again

Daniels to OKC for Ferguson and Huestis

Gordon, Fournier to the Suns with Huestis

Ferguson, Chriss and Knight to the Magic with the Heat pick Milwaukee pick - Knight would save the Magic a lot of money over Fournier. I would think about Biyombo in and Knight out but Chandler would have to be moved to another team as that's just way too much salary tied up between Biyombo and Chandler

[jredsaz]

I tossed this one into the T&T board. Got decent responses. Not sure AG is worth it tho.

ORL gets Knight, Chandler, 2018 PHX 1st (3), 2018 MIA 1st (7)*

PHX gets Gordon, Vucivic, Hezonja

*If 2018 PHX 1st falls in the top 3 and does not convey, ORL receives 2019 PHX 1st and 2021 MIA 1st (both unprotected). If the 2018 MIA 1st falls in the top 7 and does not convey, ORL receives the 2019 MIA 1st (unprotected)

Magic receive multiple firsts back for a package highlighted by AG. Suns pick will most likely fall in the 5-10 range. Added to Isacc and Orlando's own top 5 pick a new core will quickly take shape for the new regime. The Knight contract isnt the albatross it once was with only two years left - especially for a team hitting reset and the contracts of Biyombo and Augustine still on the books.

Suns receive Gordon and speed up the timeline. The addition of Knight and the expiering Hezonja off-set Gordon's looming cap hold of $13.75 million allowing the Suns to maintain $25-$30 million in cap room this off-season. Vucivic is a good player that will expire in 2019 - the same year as Dudleys contract

[patman52]

Don't know it this is the appropriate place for this, But there are some bigs that may interest the celts in the mid 1st rd. Would Marcus Smart be enough incentive to move to the Heat's spot at 22 from the celts #! say 28

You can't trade Smart in June. He won't be under contract.

I am talking about now

[Kerrsed]

An idea from the trade board:

Chandler for Thon/Mirza.... and them re-adjusting the restrictions on the pick they owe us, to ensure we get it this year.

Thon would give us another cheap C on his rookie contract, Mirza's deal is the same length as Chandlers, but around $3M less each season. And knowing we were getting the Bucks pick would allow us to maybe package it with the Miami pick and move up a bit more.