2024-25 Season Discussion and Speculation Part II

[Slim Charless]

One player can be a difference maker. The question is: Which player, who might be pried loose from somewhere, is that player to get us over the wall?

Beal isn't that guy and I knew that much from the start. He's a nice complementary piece, but his contract is absurd for the availability you get from him. Butler is a much stronger player in general, even if he's a bit more of a firestarter in the locker room and on the court. There's risk and reward in every player; it's unknown as to what you'll get until you integrate them into your group.

If Butler were two years younger, maybe this might not be such a badly viewed trade idea. But even though he's still performing well, he's nearing the end of his career quickly. Signing him to anything long term is a bad idea, but we all know Ishbia has no issue with being the guy to put bad ideas into practice.

As far as moving on from Booker, well, that's a whole different scenario. It would be one that bears considerably more fruit than much else which has been floated, but I don't see him being moved unless we were able to pillage another team's resources and that never happens for us. I don't see Booker being moved unless he asks out. The only real scenario I see where that happens is if we're relegated to the bottom of the standings again and enduring another full rebuild. At that point, we might as well dangle that carrot out there to see who bites.

Houston wants him, that's why they acquired our picks. Also have tons of young players so they are the team to raid.

I think a trade is possible if we make it-and get super killed in the play-in or the 1st round. Something that puts us in the spotlight and humiliate Ishbia. On a national scale. Seems that only a Booker trade can get us out of it. IMO

Nah, I wanted to blow it up but that ain’t happening now with the Richard’s trade. Jimmy is better than Brad and probably any other player that’s a realistic get for us. You’re in space camp with these rocket trades.

I disagree.

[Frank Lee]

I wouldn’t be surprised if these other owners just don’t stand back and watch this train wreck… Unless of course they can rape us in a deal. I’m sure there would be a lot of satisfaction watching the new kid on the block have to dip way deep into his purse. Arrogance has a price.

[Ghost of Kleine]

1. Allen is not negative asset so why package him with a 1st for Olynyk and a 2nd?
2. OK, I don't mind getting a 1st back but I don't see how this helps us
3. Again...packaging a 1st with Allen for....CHRIS PAUL?

1- You're right! He's not a negative for sure. But his contract length isn't something that Toronto would be looking to exchange for Olynyks' soon to be expiring. Toronto would be eating an additional two years at $18 then $19 million. So thirty-six million in total in this exchange. The 1st (late 1st) is appropriate compensation for eating that much salary. And even then, I do have a 2nd coming back in the deal to soften the gap. Also not many are likely aware, but Mogbo is a very underrated 6'9 225 lb multipositional/playmaking power forward in the mold of a bigger Draymond Green (elite defensive potential/IQ/Playmaking potential) as more additional returning value.

So in my estimation, the value only slightly favors Toronto in this specific premise.

2- Harris is the primary salary filler, but also a solid 6'4 defensive guard who can hit the three. Howard is actually an underrated versatile 6'8 scorer with still untapped high upside. Think kind of a more versatile Saddiq Bey but with the potential to be measurably better. And the DEN 25' 1st is the real prize as it's currently ranged in the early 20s of the 1st round of this upcoming draft this summer. And there are a number of underrated young athletic cost-controlled impact prospects even in that range. I would've preferred Bidatze, but I just don't see the Magic doing that for Allen due to being thin at center already. Also, I would have chosen a different option, but currently, we just don't really have any other desirable trade assets left.

- As you should easily discern by my avatar, I'm a Grayson Allen fan! But in the case of this premise, I just see Paul having more overall impact value to our team as a vocal leader alternative to Butler. And Champagne is a very versatile 6'8 high motor wing defender and solid rebounder who just happens to shoot around 7% from three. Although Allen is still the better shooter and playmaker, Champagnie is 6'8 a better overall defender, and a better rebounder which would give us more size on the wing! And if you compare them statistically, there's really not a significant gap! they're fairly similar in terms of statistical production. Only Champagnie is a fraction of the contractual cost compared to Allens' contract. Paul is the key value centerpiece though as he's the target for his effect on Booker and our team in holding everyone accountable and leading successfully! And without any long-term commitment for us to be concerned with! The 2nd represents incoming cost-controlled value to further target specific positional depth needs like backup center or jumbo wing/forward in those ranges.

1. Again, Allen is an asset. If a team like Toronto sees his longer deal as a negative impact to his value then I don't see why we should add extra value to move him to a team that doesn't really see him as an asset for what....Olynyk who we don't really need or a 2nd round flyer in Mogbo? No thanks

.......So we don't need more size in the frontcourt or a pick-n-pop big that is versatile and plays hard and physical?? And clearly, you don't know much about the value Mogbo possesses or would bring with his size and skillset versatility, and unique talents. Because if you were that familiar with him, then you'd understand the value he'd add. But it really is ok because you're not alone, many aren't aware of his underlying value and potential either. Ultimately it's important to understand that this is just one hypothetical proposal of many possible options we might explore. values and ranges being scalable! So it's not anything to get too upset over.

2. I don't think Harris is playing a role on this team quite frankly. Especially when we have Dunn. But if the ultimate point of this trade is to essentially move Allen for a 1st...sure the value is fine, I still don't see why we're moving Allen for draft capital when we need him on this team. Rather move him for someone who can add value at another position.

......Harris again represents a salary filler as obviously, our salary matching options are quite limited in any deals we might pursue. But even aside from that, he represents another solid veteran ballhandler and solid defender with good shooting ability to help with our spacing, also not a long-term commitment either so his contract could be an assist towards another deal as an expiring for salary matching, etc. And obviously, there's value in that under this new CBA, especially to an already restricted 2nd apron team. And clearly, Harris as a 6'4 ball handler wouldn't at all affect Dunn playing as a wing/ forward. Unless you think we'd prioritize a 6'4 guard on the wing over Dunn at 6'8? Obviously, that just wouldn't happen. The ultimate point of this premise is actually to trade Allen for two or three various assets/depth pieces that we might use in another trade or value in a different context. And yes he's been really good in his role on our team. But again, the point so many of you seem to continually be overlooking or sidestepping is that Allen (regardless of how much I do like him) is really the only desirable trade chip we have left to trade that we actually can trade if we intend to try and make moves. If there's another viable option please let me know because I'd actually prefer to keep him. Lastly, I'm not at all opposed to moving him for someone who can add value at another position. But please feel free to tell me exactly who that player is and how we accomplish that using Allen?

3. I think this is a backwards move. As much as I appreciated CP3's time here, I see Allen as having more value as a younger player who can still be moved for positive value as opposed to CP3 who is on his last legs and so I don't see much current value and there's certainly no future value in him. I don't mind Champagnie, he's fine, good value contract but I think Allen has more value as a player and as an asset. The 2nder from Chicago doesn't move the needle for me.

It's perfectly fine to have a different perspective on value as contextual value is of course scalable. To me, I see Allens' greater value (which I agree with you on) being the catalyst to incentivize the Spurs to give up Paul who they value as a leader to their young team! And also a young, versatile promising two-way wing with a good shooting that also shoots well from three. But in that same context, Do you know who else could use a vocal veteran leader on their team?? ....Us! And whether or not the majority see Paul as being on his last legs or not, It's his effect that he has on a team competitively and the intrinsic value of the effect he might again have on Booker that he brought when he came here as well as the team that helped push us competitively all the way to the NBA finals. That presence and accountability he brings carries its own significant value.


Especially to a team that has two tissue-soft stars and a mentally weak mentality throughout the roster. And Champagne may not have as much value as an asset, but again, all you need to do is look at their statistical production, etc. to see that they're really not all that dissimilar. Sure, Allen is the better three-point shooter, but is he really $12 million dollars significantly better?? Lastly, the 2nd may not move the needle for you, but that just might be because you don't value young players or cost-controlled assets as much as some. For an example, Just the basic value here would be in being able to add a cost-controlled positional depth piece with potential impact at an area of need that we otherwise might not be able to secure in our current restrictive situation by free agency or through trade. Whether that be an impact backup center, a versatile two-way jumbo wing, or a two-way 4/5. Or even another playmaking guard with size to provide insurance in case we lose both Jones and Morris in unrestricted free agency. It's fine to disagree on the contextual value of these trades, I just view them through different optics and see different potential value in the premises than you might. And unfortunately, I just don't see any other viable salary options that other teams would have any interest in trading for. If I did, I'd be very happy to not include Allen! We can't really trade Breal what we want, if at all, and Nurkic isn't viewed as desirable at all. So really who else is there that I'm missing? or what are these better value trade options available to us? I'm genuinely curious!!

[sashaturiaf]

https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/278930/Sixers-Receiving-Trade-Interest-On-Guerschon-Yabusele-Eric-Gordon

If dancing bear is made available the Suns should be all over it. He's exactly what we need at the backup power forward spot. Basically a taller more athletic PJ Tucker.

It's criminal 76ers got him for the minimum. Anyone who watched the Olympics knew he was legit. Just shows how hopeless our front office is. You knew we are 2nd apron and can only hand out minimums, yet we keep cycling through washed NBA vets instead of paying attention to places where you can actually get value

[Mr Puddles]

https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/278930/Sixers-Receiving-Trade-Interest-On-Guerschon-Yabusele-Eric-Gordon

If dancing bear is made available the Suns should be all over it. He's exactly what we need at the backup power forward spot. Basically a taller more athletic PJ Tucker.

While they have similar bulky body types, I dont see a lot of similarity in the skills/roles of Yabusele and Tucker.

Tucker's value was always on defense, defense, defense, while hitting a corner 3 now and then. Yabusele's talents mostly lie with the ball in his hands, having the ability to shoot from deep and attack off the dribble reasonably well, which when combined with his size, can be tough to deal with. I dont think hes providing a lot of defensive prowess.

I agree he's worth a look (though I'd guess we get outbid), but I'd consider re-aligning expectations of what he'd bring by not counting on a defensive stopper.

I meant it more along the lines of an undersized super strong workhorse who adds toughness and grid to our team. I don't fully agree with your assessment on the D-bear's defense either, he always looks solid to me on that end, especially in terms of holding his own against bigger guys.

Dude adds toughness and grid to the team while being a active rebounder, solid defender and vastly improved three point shooter. The fact that he happens to have the best nickname in the NBA is a bonus.

[Mr Puddles]

https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/278930/Sixers-Receiving-Trade-Interest-On-Guerschon-Yabusele-Eric-Gordon

If dancing bear is made available the Suns should be all over it. He's exactly what we need at the backup power forward spot. Basically a taller more athletic PJ Tucker.

It's criminal 76ers got him for the minimum. Anyone who watched the Olympics knew he was legit. Just shows how hopeless our front office is. You knew we are 2nd apron and can only hand out minimums, yet we keep cycling through washed NBA vets instead of paying attention to places where you can actually get value

I was actively lobbying on our board to get him this past off season. You're right, he looked great at the Olympics, flat out bullying the American team with his physicality at times. I loved the Tyus Jones acquisition but Yabusele would have been my favorite off season acquisition, had we gotten him.

[BobbieL]

https://www.espn.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/43522050/nba-trade-deadline-tiers-deal-scenarios-outlooks-all-30-teams

Phoenix Suns
Recent transactions:

Traded their 2031 unprotected first-round pick to Utah for three first-rounders: 2025 least favorable of Cleveland, Minnesota and Utah (if 1-10); 2027 least favorable of Cleveland, Minnesota and Utah; 2029 least favorable of Cleveland, Minnesota (6-30) and Utah.

Traded Josh Okogie and three second-round picks (2026 via Denver, 2031 via Denver and 2031 own) to Charlotte for Nick Richards and a 2025 second (via Denver)

Keep an eye on: First-round picks acquired from Utah, Jusuf Nurkic, Bradley Beal and Grayson Allen

Phoenix took an unorthodox approach with what had been its lone tradable first-round pick. Instead of dangling the 2031 unprotected first to include in a Beal or Nurkic trade, the Suns turned the pick into multiple first-rounders.

The three first-round picks give Phoenix the option to make multiple ones. Finding a trade for Beal or Nurkic will require creativity, as Phoenix is not allowed to aggregate contracts, use more than 100% of the Traded Player Exception or send out cash.

The Suns have 78% of their payroll tied up in paying Kevin Durant, Devin Booker, Beal and Nurkic. Beal has a no-trade clause (more on that below) while Nurkic will be paid $18.1 million this season and $19.4 million next season. He has been replaced in the rotation by Mason Plumlee and Nick Richards.

Beal is one of two players (LeBron James is the other) who has a no trade clause. The clause was negotiated into his contract while he played for Washington in 2022. He has $111 million left on his contract after this season and has the right to approve any trade. (His agent, Mark Bartelstein, indicated to ESPN's Brian Windhorst that he would never give up the no-trade clause if he were moved again.)

Grayson Allen signed a four-year, $70 million extension last April and is shooting 42.4% from 3. The addition of Tyus Jones and Beal's recent move to the bench have cut into Allen's playing time. He is averaging 10 fewer minutes per game than last season.

The Suns face the same restrictions next season if their roster stays intact. Phoenix has nine players under contract and could top $500 million in salary and luxury tax. The Suns' 2032 first-round pick starting in June is not available because they are over the second apron this season.

Two trades that work

1) Phoenix receives:
P.J. Tucker
Bones Hyland

LA Clippers receive:
Jusuf Nurkic
2027 least favorable first of Cleveland, Minnesota, Utah

2) Phoenix receives:
Gary Harris
Cory Joseph
2025 first from Denver (if 6-30)

Orlando receives:
Grayson Allen
Monte Morris

These two separate trades would get Phoenix below both aprons next season and give the Suns two first-round picks in this year's draft. The trade saves the Suns more than $200 million in salary and luxury tax penalties next season.

Top draft assets to use in trades:

2029 least favorable first-round pick of Cleveland, Minnesota (if 6-30) and Utah

Other notable draft assets:

2025 first-round pick (via Cleveland)
2027 least favorable first-round pick of Cleveland, Minnesota and Utah
2025 second-round pick (via Denver)

Other notes:

Phoenix has an open roster spot.

The Suns are projected to pay a combined $382 million in salary and luxury tax, the largest in NBA history.

They have a $3.25 million trade exception. They are allowed to use the exception despite being over the second apron.




This is nuts.... 350 Million for mediocrity

These trades are why they have to blow it up. These are the kinds of moves, that don’t do a damn thing except create tweets from Gambo and Flex about the team making moves but don’t move the needle.

Hence blow it up! Durant and Booker

The decline will be slow for a couple years but constant and the team will be unwatchable

[lilfishi22]

....

1. Not assets worth giving up Allen AND a 1st. Also Olynyk would've been fine/good if we didn't already use a 2nd to get Nick RIchards. To also give up a 1st to get another big is an incredible waste. I don't care about Mogbo, dude's been out of the rotation for the past month and he's just not moving the needle for me. Value might be more balanced if there's no draft capital attached but even then, Olynyk isn't the C I'd part ways with Allen for and adding Mogbo doesn't change the calculus

2. Even though you say Harris is a primarily filler, you then went on a spiel about who he is and what he can do when I already know that, which is exactly why I don't want him. These last couple of season Harris shot under 37% from the arc, averaged 1.3 assist and has his own injury concerns to deal with. I'm not giving up Grayson for a better defender at the same position. Give me Allen over Harris 10/10. You are right, Allen is the one of the few valuable assets we have left which is why I said in the offseason I don't want to trade him but we may have to. But not for this. If we're trading him, it should be someone who can help us and at least be on the same tier at Allen. Also Jett? What has he done in the NBA? He came into the league as knockdown 3PT shooter and he's shooting it at a 32% clip...PASS

So if we're going down the blow it route and you're selling this to me as a Allen for a 1st kind of deal then yeah I like that value. But if we're not blowing it up, why are we dumping one of our productive players for draft capital?

3. I'm not giving up Allen and a 1st for a tougher voice in the team that's gone after this season, plain and simple. Champayne, filler and a second rounder be damned.

[dcoop]

I rarely post here….

I pop in to read posts and see any news.

It’s crazy how many people here call themselves fans and all they do is blast ownership, hate every move that is made, and think there is no future.

Who says that 2031 pick will be great. It’s 6 damn years away. Even without picks it’s easy to build a solid team.

People want to blow this team up? For what to suck for 10 plus years? I think we have been there before and the same people bitched about the team then.

We can trade Beal who is undersized and doesn’t get it done for a stronger better Butler. Straps us on cash but not longer then having Beal.

Matty ish runs this like a business. He’s a smart guy. Even if we don’t win a title we will never be a lottery team. That 2031 pick is whatever.

Why rebuild. You guys want to see us draft picks like Bender and Josh Jackson for 10 years…..

It is rare to draft players who are game changers. Look at the history of the draft. I say keep pushing.

If you don’t like what we are doing there are plenty of other teams to follow.

[Ghost of Kleine]

https://www.espn.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/43522050/nba-trade-deadline-tiers-deal-scenarios-outlooks-all-30-teams

Phoenix Suns
Recent transactions:

Traded their 2031 unprotected first-round pick to Utah for three first-rounders: 2025 least favorable of Cleveland, Minnesota and Utah (if 1-10); 2027 least favorable of Cleveland, Minnesota and Utah; 2029 least favorable of Cleveland, Minnesota (6-30) and Utah.

Traded Josh Okogie and three second-round picks (2026 via Denver, 2031 via Denver and 2031 own) to Charlotte for Nick Richards and a 2025 second (via Denver)

Keep an eye on: First-round picks acquired from Utah, Jusuf Nurkic, Bradley Beal and Grayson Allen

Phoenix took an unorthodox approach with what had been its lone tradable first-round pick. Instead of dangling the 2031 unprotected first to include in a Beal or Nurkic trade, the Suns turned the pick into multiple first-rounders.

The three first-round picks give Phoenix the option to make multiple ones. Finding a trade for Beal or Nurkic will require creativity, as Phoenix is not allowed to aggregate contracts, use more than 100% of the Traded Player Exception or send out cash.

The Suns have 78% of their payroll tied up in paying Kevin Durant, Devin Booker, Beal and Nurkic. Beal has a no-trade clause (more on that below) while Nurkic will be paid $18.1 million this season and $19.4 million next season. He has been replaced in the rotation by Mason Plumlee and Nick Richards.

Beal is one of two players (LeBron James is the other) who has a no trade clause. The clause was negotiated into his contract while he played for Washington in 2022. He has $111 million left on his contract after this season and has the right to approve any trade. (His agent, Mark Bartelstein, indicated to ESPN's Brian Windhorst that he would never give up the no-trade clause if he were moved again.)

Grayson Allen signed a four-year, $70 million extension last April and is shooting 42.4% from 3. The addition of Tyus Jones and Beal's recent move to the bench have cut into Allen's playing time. He is averaging 10 fewer minutes per game than last season.

The Suns face the same restrictions next season if their roster stays intact. Phoenix has nine players under contract and could top $500 million in salary and luxury tax. The Suns' 2032 first-round pick starting in June is not available because they are over the second apron this season.

Two trades that work

1) Phoenix receives:
P.J. Tucker
Bones Hyland

LA Clippers receive:
Jusuf Nurkic
2027 least favorable first of Cleveland, Minnesota, Utah

2) Phoenix receives:
Gary Harris
Cory Joseph
2025 first from Denver (if 6-30)

Orlando receives:
Grayson Allen
Monte Morris

These two separate trades would get Phoenix below both aprons next season and give the Suns two first-round picks in this year's draft. The trade saves the Suns more than $200 million in salary and luxury tax penalties next season.

Top draft assets to use in trades:

2029 least favorable first-round pick of Cleveland, Minnesota (if 6-30) and Utah

Other notable draft assets:

2025 first-round pick (via Cleveland)
2027 least favorable first-round pick of Cleveland, Minnesota and Utah
2025 second-round pick (via Denver)

Other notes:

Phoenix has an open roster spot.

The Suns are projected to pay a combined $382 million in salary and luxury tax, the largest in NBA history.

They have a $3.25 million trade exception. They are allowed to use the exception despite being over the second apron.




This is nuts.... 350 Million for mediocrity

Lol! Some of these trades look eerily similar to some of the Allen trade premises that I posted on Allen / Nurkic trades and that Fishi, Napoleon, and some others were chiding me for. (only slight changes adding 1 extra player or a different 1st) What is Bobby Marks thinking suggesting we might explore trades such as this using Allen and a 1st of all things?

[BobbieL]

....

1. Not assets worth giving up Allen AND a 1st. Also Olynyk would've been fine/good if we didn't already use a 2nd to get Nick RIchards. To also give up a 1st to get another big is an incredible waste. I don't care about Mogbo, dude's been out of the rotation for the past month and he's just not moving the needle for me. Value might be more balanced if there's no draft capital attached but even then, Olynyk isn't the C I'd part ways with Allen for and adding Mogbo doesn't change the calculus

2. Even though you say Harris is a primarily filler, you then went on a spiel about who he is and what he can do when I already know that, which is exactly why I don't want him. These last couple of season Harris shot under 37% from the arc, averaged 1.3 assist and has his own injury concerns to deal with. I'm not giving up Grayson for a better defender at the same position. Give me Allen over Harris 10/10. You are right, Allen is the one of the few valuable assets we have left which is why I said in the offseason I don't want to trade him but we may have to. But not for this. If we're trading him, it should be someone who can help us and at least be on the same tier at Allen. Also Jett? What has he done in the NBA? He came into the league as knockdown 3PT shooter and he's shooting it at a 32% clip...PASS

So if we're going down the blow it route and you're selling this to me as a Allen for a 1st kind of deal then yeah I like that value. But if we're not blowing it up, why are we dumping one of our productive players for draft capital?

3. I'm not giving up Allen and a 1st for a tougher voice in the team that's gone after this season, plain and simple. Champayne, filler and a second rounder be damned.

Agreed

If blowing it up - moving everybody

But if not - keep Allen

I don’t even want to move Nurk if it costs a pick

[BobbieL]

I rarely post here….

I pop in to read posts and see any news.

It’s crazy how many people here call themselves fans and all they do is blast ownership, hate every move that is made, and think there is no future.

Who says that 2031 pick will be great. It’s 6 damn years away. Even without picks it’s easy to build a solid team.

People want to blow this team up? For what to suck for 10 plus years? I think we have been there before and the same people bitched about the team then.

We can trade Beal who is undersized and doesn’t get it done for a stronger better Butler. Straps us on cash but not longer then having Beal.

Matty ish runs this like a business. He’s a smart guy. Even if we don’t win a title we will never be a lottery team. That 2031 pick is whatever.

Why rebuild. You guys want to see us draft picks like Bender and Josh Jackson for 10 years…..

It is rare to draft players who are game changers. Look at the history of the draft. I say keep pushing.

If you don’t like what we are doing there are plenty of other teams to follow.

Suns will be a lottery team in a couple years if they overpay for Butier .. pretty much a lock

[lilfishi22]

I rarely post here….

I pop in to read posts and see any news.

It’s crazy how many people here call themselves fans and all they do is blast ownership, hate every move that is made, and think there is no future.

Who says that 2031 pick will be great. It’s 6 damn years away. Even without picks it’s easy to build a solid team.

People want to blow this team up? For what to suck for 10 plus years? I think we have been there before and the same people bitched about the team then.

We can trade Beal who is undersized and doesn’t get it done for a stronger better Butler. Straps us on cash but not longer then having Beal.

Matty ish runs this like a business. He’s a smart guy. Even if we don’t win a title we will never be a lottery team. That 2031 pick is whatever.

Why rebuild. You guys want to see us draft picks like Bender and Josh Jackson for 10 years…..

It is rare to draft players who are game changers. Look at the history of the draft. I say keep pushing.

If you don’t like what we are doing there are plenty of other teams to follow.

You can have balanced takes without being overly critical or overly dismissive. Saying ishbia runs it like a business and that he's a smart guy doesn't necessarily mean he can run an NBA team successfully. Virtually every NBA owner have had extremely successful business careers (that's how the could afford being an owner) but you could probably count on one hand the number of actually good owners and more often than not, the bet ones are the ones you hear the least from. I mean, when's the last time we heard from owners like Grousbeck and Holt. At the same time, some of the worst decisions made over the past decade or so have been, loudly, done by overly hands-on owners like Sarver with his cost savings, Vivek, Jordan, Dolan etc.

Success in business =/= success in the NBA

I like a lot of what Ish has done, especially the off the court stuff like bringing back a G-League team, setting $2 concessions, bringing Suns basketball to local TV, allowed our front office to spend and I think he's just been a great owner from a community and fan perspective. Where he's fallen is being far too hands-on in the business of making deals

[dcoop]

I rarely post here….

I pop in to read posts and see any news.

It’s crazy how many people here call themselves fans and all they do is blast ownership, hate every move that is made, and think there is no future.

Who says that 2031 pick will be great. It’s 6 damn years away. Even without picks it’s easy to build a solid team.

People want to blow this team up? For what to suck for 10 plus years? I think we have been there before and the same people bitched about the team then.

We can trade Beal who is undersized and doesn’t get it done for a stronger better Butler. Straps us on cash but not longer then having Beal.

Matty ish runs this like a business. He’s a smart guy. Even if we don’t win a title we will never be a lottery team. That 2031 pick is whatever.

Why rebuild. You guys want to see us draft picks like Bender and Josh Jackson for 10 years…..

It is rare to draft players who are game changers. Look at the history of the draft. I say keep pushing.

If you don’t like what we are doing there are plenty of other teams to follow.

Suns will be a lottery team in a couple years if they overpay for Butier .. pretty much a lock

Exactly that is one your arm chair posts. You don’t actually know. No one knows. Again ishbia is a business man.

[BobbieL]

I rarely post here….

I pop in to read posts and see any news.

It’s crazy how many people here call themselves fans and all they do is blast ownership, hate every move that is made, and think there is no future.

Who says that 2031 pick will be great. It’s 6 damn years away. Even without picks it’s easy to build a solid team.

People want to blow this team up? For what to suck for 10 plus years? I think we have been there before and the same people bitched about the team then.

We can trade Beal who is undersized and doesn’t get it done for a stronger better Butler. Straps us on cash but not longer then having Beal.

Matty ish runs this like a business. He’s a smart guy. Even if we don’t win a title we will never be a lottery team. That 2031 pick is whatever.

Why rebuild. You guys want to see us draft picks like Bender and Josh Jackson for 10 years…..

It is rare to draft players who are game changers. Look at the history of the draft. I say keep pushing.

If you don’t like what we are doing there are plenty of other teams to follow.

Suns will be a lottery team in a couple years if they overpay for Butier .. pretty much a lock

Exactly that is one your arm chair posts. You don’t actually know. No one knows. Again ishbia is a business man.

Well it’s an educated guess

If ishbia trades for and extends butler and Durant, they are very limited in how to improve the team. Those players will age and without draft picks, the roster will not improve

And do you think free agents will want to come to a bad team that is spiraling - maybe

[MrMiyagi]

I rarely post here….

I pop in to read posts and see any news.

It’s crazy how many people here call themselves fans and all they do is blast ownership, hate every move that is made, and think there is no future.

Who says that 2031 pick will be great. It’s 6 damn years away. Even without picks it’s easy to build a solid team.

People want to blow this team up? For what to suck for 10 plus years? I think we have been there before and the same people bitched about the team then.

We can trade Beal who is undersized and doesn’t get it done for a stronger better Butler. Straps us on cash but not longer then having Beal.

Matty ish runs this like a business. He’s a smart guy. Even if we don’t win a title we will never be a lottery team. That 2031 pick is whatever.

Why rebuild. You guys want to see us draft picks like Bender and Josh Jackson for 10 years…..

It is rare to draft players who are game changers. Look at the history of the draft. I say keep pushing.

If you don’t like what we are doing there are plenty of other teams to follow.

Where's The Ringer? We've found the burner

[ImNotMcDiSwear]

I rarely post here….

I pop in to read posts and see any news.

It’s crazy how many people here call themselves fans and all they do is blast ownership, hate every move that is made, and think there is no future.

Who says that 2031 pick will be great. It’s 6 damn years away. Even without picks it’s easy to build a solid team.

People want to blow this team up? For what to suck for 10 plus years? I think we have been there before and the same people bitched about the team then.

We can trade Beal who is undersized and doesn’t get it done for a stronger better Butler. Straps us on cash but not longer then having Beal.

Matty ish runs this like a business. He’s a smart guy. Even if we don’t win a title we will never be a lottery team. That 2031 pick is whatever.

Why rebuild. You guys want to see us draft picks like Bender and Josh Jackson for 10 years…..

It is rare to draft players who are game changers. Look at the history of the draft. I say keep pushing.

If you don’t like what we are doing there are plenty of other teams to follow.

You can have balanced takes without being overly critical or overly dismissive. Saying ishbia runs it like a business and that he's a smart guy necessarily mean he can run an NBA team successfully. Virtually every NBA owner have had extremely successful business careers (that's how the could afford being an owner) but you could probably count on one hand the number of actually good owners and more often than not, the bet ones are the ones you hear the least from. I mean, when's the last time we heard from owners like Grousbeck and Holt. At the same time, some of the worst decisions made over the past decade or so have been, loudly, done by overly hands-on owners like Sarver with his cost savings, Vivek, Jordan, Dolan etc.

Success in business =/= success in the NBA

I like a lot of what Ish has done, especially the off the court stuff like bringing back a G-League team, setting $2 concessions, bringing Suns basketball to local TV, allowed our front office to spend and I think he's just been a great owner from a community and fan perspective. Where he's fallen is being far too hands-on in the business of making deals

I've been posting on Suns forums since 1999. From then until sometime in the mid-late '10s, I and every Suns fan I encountered wanted one thing. We wanted the same thing, and just that one thing. Until recently, we'd been one of the most successful franchises in terms of W/L in NBA history, except... there was that one thing. Still missing that one thing.

I didn't complain at all during the tank years... not about the tanking, anyway. Just wished we hadn't blown so many drafts. Well-managed teams go through a natural cycle of death, rebirth, ascension and decay. Best is to embrace the cycle. Go all the way to the bottom and stay there until you draft a future 1st Teamer. When your core guys approach their primes, THAT is when you go all-out in the hope that your peak will be the highest in the league - for several years, if you can. The one part of the cycle you want to keep as short as possible is the decay phase. But we've been in the decay phase for a few years now.

Spending all your money on aging players and trading away all your draft picks - fighting that natural cycle - all but guarantees you won't get that one thing.

So I bitch.

[MrMiyagi]

I rarely post here….

I pop in to read posts and see any news.

It’s crazy how many people here call themselves fans and all they do is blast ownership, hate every move that is made, and think there is no future.

Who says that 2031 pick will be great. It’s 6 damn years away. Even without picks it’s easy to build a solid team.

People want to blow this team up? For what to suck for 10 plus years? I think we have been there before and the same people bitched about the team then.

We can trade Beal who is undersized and doesn’t get it done for a stronger better Butler. Straps us on cash but not longer then having Beal.

Matty ish runs this like a business. He’s a smart guy. Even if we don’t win a title we will never be a lottery team. That 2031 pick is whatever.

Why rebuild. You guys want to see us draft picks like Bender and Josh Jackson for 10 years…..

It is rare to draft players who are game changers. Look at the history of the draft. I say keep pushing.

If you don’t like what we are doing there are plenty of other teams to follow.

Suns will be a lottery team in a couple years if they overpay for Butier .. pretty much a lock

Exactly that is one your arm chair posts. You don’t actually know. No one knows. Again ishbia is a business man.

All hail lord business!

Seriously, though, I have no idea how people have this kind of attitude. Business people are the worst. A majority of businesses fail and the ones who succeed tend to lie, cheat, and steal.

[dcoop]

I rarely post here….

I pop in to read posts and see any news.

It’s crazy how many people here call themselves fans and all they do is blast ownership, hate every move that is made, and think there is no future.

Who says that 2031 pick will be great. It’s 6 damn years away. Even without picks it’s easy to build a solid team.

People want to blow this team up? For what to suck for 10 plus years? I think we have been there before and the same people bitched about the team then.

We can trade Beal who is undersized and doesn’t get it done for a stronger better Butler. Straps us on cash but not longer then having Beal.

Matty ish runs this like a business. He’s a smart guy. Even if we don’t win a title we will never be a lottery team. That 2031 pick is whatever.

Why rebuild. You guys want to see us draft picks like Bender and Josh Jackson for 10 years…..

It is rare to draft players who are game changers. Look at the history of the draft. I say keep pushing.

If you don’t like what we are doing there are plenty of other teams to follow.

You can have balanced takes without being overly critical or overly dismissive. Saying ishbia runs it like a business and that he's a smart guy doesn't necessarily mean he can run an NBA team successfully. Virtually every NBA owner have had extremely successful business careers (that's how the could afford being an owner) but you could probably count on one hand the number of actually good owners and more often than not, the bet ones are the ones you hear the least from. I mean, when's the last time we heard from owners like Grousbeck and Holt. At the same time, some of the worst decisions made over the past decade or so have been, loudly, done by overly hands-on owners like Sarver with his cost savings, Vivek, Jordan, Dolan etc.

Success in business =/= success in the NBA

I like a lot of what Ish has done, especially the off the court stuff like bringing back a G-League team, setting $2 concessions, bringing Suns basketball to local TV, allowed our front office to spend and I think he's just been a great owner from a community and fan perspective. Where he's fallen is being far too hands-on in the business of making deals

Right. What has he done wrong so far? No one knows. Everyone is guessing at this point.

Let it play out. Spend what you have to spend. You got players for 3 years. If it doesn’t work then blow it up. Open your pocket book and that 2031 isn’t going to be what people think

[dcoop]

Suns will be a lottery team in a couple years if they overpay for Butier .. pretty much a lock

Exactly that is one your arm chair posts. You don’t actually know. No one knows. Again ishbia is a business man.

All hail lord business!

Seriously, though, I have no idea how people have this kind of attitude. Business people are the worst. A majority of businesses fail and the ones who succeed tend to lie, cheat, and steal.

Yes lie, cheap, and steal.

You will grow up one day and quit saying the same thing day after day after day.