Suns need to stop neglecting to develop their young players

[RunDogGun]

/\ Munsoned in here.

You don't even know the meaning of that one either. However, it makes my comment funnier than I thought.

Anyway, looks like Len did very well tonight, and TJ got some productive minutes. So this thread can die now. We develop our youth, it just may be that either one doesn't see it, or one doesn't understand it.

It's funny how you want to attack people on here all the time and try to do it in a sly way yet it never works (example your lack of understanding of munsoned). Btw for something to be funny more than just you has to find it funny.

Have a nice day, try to be less hateful.

And sf88 was proven right with last nights game. Warren showed he has a lot to offer.

Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

You are amazing, at getting everything wrong. First, sf88 was not proven right, this whole thread was about the Suns neglecting to develop our young players, if Len keeps this up, as well as Warren, they will get minutes. We sent Warren to the DLeague, where he seemed to be great, which probably helped him last night. So sf88 was proven wrong, not right.

Hateful? You mean like pm-ing someone threatening to beat them up? Hypocrite much?

It doesn't have to be funny to someone else besides me to be funnier.

Next Munsuned means to be up a creak without a paddle, or have the world I front of you, and blow it. Neither of which applied to my comment.

I didn't attack you, you big baby, I pointed out that two of you were clueless.

So now that we recapped what you got wrong, you have a nice day as well, which is the only thing you got right, for I will have a nice day.

[Revived]

Warren has been getting minutes lately, that's good.

I wish Ennis would be active on game days though. We have had a really easy schedule the past couple games and will continue to have an easy schedule going forward until Dec 5th (exception being the Toronto game) so these type of games would be perfect for Ennis to get some exposure his rookie season in garbage minutes.

Can't a guy like Randolph or Tolliver be inactive instead?

I know people have said that Ennis will be a trade asset but he's not gonna have any trade value if he's inactive and never plays.

I realize the season's young but these games we have going are a good opportunity for him.

Also I don't know who said it but someone said that guys like Len, Goodwin and Warren would get more shots if they played with a pass first PG like Ennis as opposed to our ball dominant guards and that's also true. Of course we are talking about in garbage time.

[RunDogGun]

I thought this thread died.

Plumlee had all of 55 minutes in this league, and Mook was a sophomore when we got him, Bledsoe was a bench player, and we drafted the other two starters. If Len gets into the starting lineup, we will have drafted three of the five of our starters. We develop our youth, it's just that players develop differently, and/or there are better players ahead of them.

We have three quality starting point guards, Ennis is low on the list right now.

[Revived]

How long are we gonna keep making the ACC Player of the Year warm our freaking bench? Warren's a guy who can score without having plays designed for him and we're a team with a bunch of selfish players who want to play ISO ball....

Warren is the perfect remedy.

I hate that the Suns think their some elite team with all these great players when their not. Their not even a playoff team, it's time to develop these young guys so that maybe they could turn out to be the star player that we need to take us to the playoffs.

I can't remember but was Jeff Hornacek hardly given minutes when he was a rookie? Maybe this is his way of getting payback for not getting playing time or something?

Seriously, this is just getting ridiculous. We could certainly use another scorer ESPECIALLY in the absence of IT and when guys like Bledsoe & Dragic are tired out after playing heavy minutes.

Warren needs to be getting 15-20 mins a game and Len or Randolph need to start cause Plumlee is trash, there's a reason why one of the greatest coaches of all time Mike Krzyzewski hated Plumlee. Glue Plumlee's white ass to the bench and let our youngsters and guys like Randolph who aren't as stupid play.

[kennydorglas]

Goodwin wont have a chance to shine in this team. Meanwhile, his value is dropping and we couldnt trade him for someone valuable.

My guess is that we wont use our youngsters AT ALL, we're waiting for a disgrunted superstar and offer all of them (like celtics did in 08).

Ennis, Goodwin, Warren and Len is a freakin' solid group of youngsters, you can include bogdanovic in the future and another super prospect with Lakers' pick.

Why did they sign Zoran? Why get Isaiah if his play would disgruntled our 2 guards? We're accumulating assets for a trade that maybe wont never happen. We already missed Love.

[RunDogGun]

Goodwin doesn't get minutes because he isn't good enough to get minutes. Some of you guys need to stop posting on this subject, for you don't know what you are talking about. So far people keep pointing out that our rookies are getting more minutes than a lot of other rookies. So do some research first please.

This thread should have died a long time ago. We do develop our youth. We are not neglecting our young players, there are simply better players ahead of them. We all hope that our super young players could earn rotational spots, but they aren't.

But please, another sequel of Harry and Lloyd never gets old.

[Scutt]

:roll: Goodwin doesn't get minutes because he isn't good enough to get minutes. :

I disagree. Goodwin doesn't get minutes because the Suns choose to have Goran Dragic and Gerald Green in front of him in the rotation. When given minutes, he has produced, and I have no doubt he could be earning minutes on other NBA rosters.

There is no rule that says a team has to have two starting quality vets at the SG spot. Its not his fault the Suns are obsessed with being in the middle of the pack, and they choose to have so many guards on the team in front of him.

By having Green and Dragic on the roster, the Suns are limiting Goodwins opportunities, there is absolutely no denying that. To sit there and insist a 20 year old should some how be BETTER than those two BEFORE he can earn ANY rotation minutes, is just foolish . You have to walk before you can run.

[Scutt]

The best analogy I can think for this subject is baking. Suppose NBA players are cookies:

Cookie dough ( TJ, Archie, Ennis)
Cookies ( Dragic, Green, Tucker)
The oven ( NBA playing time)

Rundog, you seem to be suggesting that cookie dough should somehow turn into a cookie before even going in the oven. Guess what, those players that are “better” than TJ and Archie, have already been in the oven and were cooked.

By your line of thinking, why should Dragic have gotten any time in his 2nd year? Steve Nash was clearly better than him, and at the time, so were Jason Richardson and LB. Guess what though, we still found a way to get Dragic minutes playing off ball, despite “better” players in front of him.

[NavLDO]

:roll: Goodwin doesn't get minutes because he isn't good enough to get minutes. :

I disagree. Goodwin doesn't get minutes because the Suns choose to have Goran Dragic and Gerald Green in front of him in the rotation. When given minutes, he has produced, and I have no doubt he could be earning minutes on other NBA rosters.

There is no rule that says a team has to have two starting quality vets at the SG spot. Its not his fault the Suns are obsessed with being in the middle of the pack, and they choose to have so many guards on the team in front of him.

By having Green and Dragic on the roster, the Suns are limiting Goodwins opportunities, there is absolutely no denying that. To sit there and insist a 20 year old should some how be BETTER than those two BEFORE he can earn ANY rotation minutes, just shows how foolish you are. You have to walk before you can run.

You can't possibly mean that statement. You can't possibly believe that Horny and McD are purposely playing to be a "middle of the pack team". They are trying to give us our best chance to win--PERIOD. Just because they aren't always successful doesn't mean that their intent is to be mediocre.

Goodwin is simply not as good as Green or Dragic. And when we are in close games like the last two nights, a coach isn't going to put in Goodwin over these two unless he's forced to.

Len, Ennis, Goodwin and Warren are all getting time when able and it makes sense. The only argument I would have is Len--he should be starting in place of Plumlee, but as I'm not privy to decision making process, I don't know why Plumlee continues to be the starter. But one thing I can say for certain is that it's not for the purpose of Horny being obsessed with wanting us being "mediocre".

[Scutt]

^ If they don't make any changes to the roster, than yes, that is exactly what they have achieved. Maybe it is not what they were aiming for, but that just shows how poorly they are at judging talent . There were plenty of fans on here, including myself, who were saying this roster looked like it would only win 40 something games in the offseason. We are looking like an 9th seed and on pace for just that. If we do not trade for a star, we will not be moving up in the playoffs. If we don't develop our young guys, this current roster will go nowhere. As it stands, we are built to be a 9th seed, with the hope we can sneak into the 8th spot. Robert Sarver is in banking, and he runs this team like a business. I honestly believe he would be happy JUST to be a playoff team and make the extra cash. He seems too impatient to build a true contender.

[RunDogGun]

The best analogy I can think for this subject is baking. Suppose NBA players are cookies:

Cookie dough ( TJ, Archie, Ennis)
Cookies ( Dragic, Green, Tucker)
The oven ( NBA playing time)

Rundog, you seem to be suggesting that cookie dough should somehow turn into a cookie before even going in the oven. Guess what, those players that are “better” than TJ and Archie, have already been in the oven and were cooked.

By your line of thinking, why should Dragic have gotten any time in his 2nd year? Steve Nash was clearly better than him, and at the time, so were Jason Richardson and LB. Guess what though, we still found a way to get Dragic minutes playing off ball, despite “better” players in front of him.

Please don't attempt at deciding what I'm thinking. I'm thinking your theory is half baked.

As far as Goodwin is concerned, he has not always produced. Even in summer league, where theoretically he should have destroyed everyone because he is so great, he had difficulties working within the offense. He still shoots poorly. Last year he shot 14% from three. It's fair to say he sucked at shooting from the three, no? He wasn't very good from the field either. And even when he drove the basket, which was his best move, he often would force a shot, that was either easily blocked, or Goodwin himself shot an unmakable shot from under the hoop. Even with that known, when he got playing time, our guys still looked for him, to help build his confidence. Not all players pan out in their rookie contracts. Some take many years to finally get it. Look at Green. He was thought to be an amazing draft pick, but he just didn't pan out, but after many years, he seems to finally understand somewhat (in my opinion still lacking in some areas). Goodwin should have stayed in school, as many draft hopefuls should.

Dragic barely got minutes under D'Antoni, and he didn't start to be good until we traded him late in his rookie contract. There was a reason he was called Tragic by some fans.

When Goodwin is good enough to get rotational minutes, he will. Right now, he is a deep bench player. However, I have suggested that we make him a defensive specialist and use him when we need to shutdown an opposing guard. And I've made that suggestion a bunch of times. So your thinking about my thinking is off once again. Goodwin just hasn't worked within the offense yet.

Warren has been up and down. He has had two games with over 18 minutes, with one good, and one bad. And the good came after the bad game. So be thankful that the coaching staff didn't do what you claim they have. For if they did, he wouldn't have the second bigger minute game. Warren has had 84 minutes so far, and I feel that isn't bad for a rookie, with better more experienced players ahead of him.

Ennis is even getting some burn. I think your expectations are naive at best. There are many different types cookie dough, some if eaten before baked can make you sick.

[lilfishi22]

Youth development doesn't occur exclusively on the court. Most of the development happens in the background during practice. The NBA court only displays what they have developed. If they haven't developed enough to make it past the practice court, then they aren't ready for the NBA court.

I want to see Archie, Ennis and Warren play as much as the next Suns fan because I pay to watch the team, the entire team. But I understand that I am biased in this view because I've paid to watch them play but I don't get to do that because they aren't on the NBA court. My bias to want to watch them on the court (right now) maybe a detriment to the development of these young players and to the success of this team.

Some teams can afford to have a rookie on the court because they are talented enough and have outplayed other rotation players. Other teams can afford to have their rookies on the court because they don't care whether they win or lose. But that's not the attitude I want our team to have, so I've accepted the position that, in order to win, we need to play our best guys. Right now, Ennis/Archie can't beat out our rotation guards for minutes and Warren can't beat out Mook/PJ for minutes. We just happen to be particularly deep in those positions and that's just the reality being a young guy in the NBA.

By your line of thinking, why should Dragic have gotten any time in his 2nd year? Steve Nash was clearly better than him, and at the time, so were Jason Richardson and LB. Guess what though, we still found a way to get Dragic minutes playing off ball, despite “better” players in front of him.

Because Dragic was the only other PG on the team and Nash couldn't play 38mpg. It wasn't like there was another all-star calibre PG in front of Dragic and we decided to play him over this non-existent star PG.

[Scutt]

^ Mike Dantoni never coached Goran Dragic. And Dragic certainly showed flashes of being a good player, long before we traded him to Houston. Remember him tearing it up against the Spurs in the playoffs? Why did the Suns give up on Dragic again? Because they were desperate to be the 8th seed and wanted it so bad, they were willing to sacrifice one of the few young prospects they had to try and get there. I hope they don't do something so shortsighted again, but who knows?

[lilfishi22]

Let's not act like our young guys are some sort of superstar we're holding back for the fun of it. If they are as good as reported, they will get their minutes.

[Scutt]

As far as Goodwin is concerned, he has not always produced. Even in summer league, where theoretically he should have destroyed everyone because he is so great, he had difficulties working within the offense. [b]He still shoots poorly. Last year he shot 14% from three. It's fair to say he sucked at shooting from the three, no?[/b] He wasn't very good from the field either. And even when he drove the basket, which was his best move, he often would force a shot, that was either easily blocked, or Goodwin himself shot an unmakable shot from under the hoop. Even with that known, when he got playing time, our guys still looked for him, to help build his confidence. Not all players pan out in their rookie contracts. Some take many years to finally get it. Look at Green. He was thought to be an amazing draft pick, but he just didn't pan out, but after many years, he seems to finally understand somewhat (in my opinion still lacking in some areas). Goodwin should have stayed in school, as many draft hopefuls should.

Yes, 14% from 3 is pretty bad, but compare Goodwins rookie year to that of Jimmy Butler, who you brought up in another post. Butler only averaged 2.5 points a game in 8 minutes and shot 18% from 3. He didn't look like anything special during his rookie year, but because of injuries, he saw a significant increase in playing time the next year and averaged 26 minutes a game. Getting that court time, allowed him to prove he was an NBA player and look what he is doing now. He is still a pretty bad 3 point shooter too. Just because Goodwin is not a great shooter doesn't mean he cant contribute right now, he is great at drawing fouls. With IT out and Bledsoe and Dragic obviously tired, it would have been an ideal opportunity for Goodwin get a chance against Miami last night. Its not the worst thing in the world, to have a player who doesn't want to chuck up a 3 every chance he gets.

[RunDogGun]

^ Mike Dantoni never coached Goran Dragic. And Dragic certainly showed flashes of being a good player, long before we traded him to Houston. Remember him tearing it up against the Spurs in the playoffs? Why did the Suns give up on Dragic again? Because they were desperate to be the 8th seed and wanted it so bad, they were willing to sacrifice one of the few young prospects they had to try and get there. I hope they don't do something so shortsighted again, but who knows?

My fault, I meant Porter. But Goran really only had that one good quarter against SA. If you look at the series stats, he didn't do so well the other 15 quarters. After the foot incident, Goran played pretty poorly. That is why he was traded, not for the unfounded reason you suggest.

[RunDogGun]

As far as Goodwin is concerned, he has not always produced. Even in summer league, where theoretically he should have destroyed everyone because he is so great, he had difficulties working within the offense. [b]He still shoots poorly. Last year he shot 14% from three. It's fair to say he sucked at shooting from the three, no?[/b] He wasn't very good from the field either. And even when he drove the basket, which was his best move, he often would force a shot, that was either easily blocked, or Goodwin himself shot an unmakable shot from under the hoop. Even with that known, when he got playing time, our guys still looked for him, to help build his confidence. Not all players pan out in their rookie contracts. Some take many years to finally get it. Look at Green. He was thought to be an amazing draft pick, but he just didn't pan out, but after many years, he seems to finally understand somewhat (in my opinion still lacking in some areas). Goodwin should have stayed in school, as many draft hopefuls should.

Yes, 14% from 3 is pretty bad, but compare Goodwins rookie year to that of Jimmy Butler, who you brought up in another post. Butler only averaged 2.5 points a game in 8 minutes and shot 18% from 3. He didn't look like anything special during his rookie year, but because of injuries, he saw a significant increase in playing time the next year and averaged 26 minutes a game. Getting that court time, allowed him to prove he was an NBA player and look what he is doing now. He is still a pretty bad 3 point shooter too. Just because Goodwin is not a great shooter doesn't mean he cant contribute right now, he is great at drawing fouls. With IT out and Bledsoe and Dragic obviously tired, it would have been an ideal opportunity for Goodwin get a chance against Miami last night. Its not the worst thing in the world, to have a player who doesn't want to chuck up a 3 every chance he gets.

Butler must have proved himself to Thibs. Maybe Butler is a smarter player than Goodwin. You really can't be suggesting that we start him over Goran. As you said, injuries opened the door for Butler, not Chicago giving up on an AllNBA player and a sixman of the year candidate. Right now, Goran and Green are better players. Goodwin had the starts for all of the Summer League, and did not perform very well. Often he just reklessly tried to run into everyone to get a call. This may work in the DLeague, but it didn't work in the NBA setting. You did watch the Summer League games, right?

Like I've said, I would love for him to be better than the guys ahead of him, and earn those minutes. He clearly has not, and your reasoning saying our coaching staff was wanting to be an eighth seed is unfounded, and rather juvenile.

Oh well, we do develop our youth, and we have a starting of still on his rookie contract to prove it. I'm sorry that you don't see it.

[Revived]

Markieff Morris is the only player that the Suns drafted in the past TEN years who they kept and developed in Phoenix.

Damn that's a telling stat.

It's a shame that those of us who want to see Warren get consistent playing time have to hope for an injury to a Suns player in order to see that happen.

And same thing with Len starting.

This is such a dysfunctional, log jam filled roster, holy crap.

[RunDogGun]

No it isn't even a stat. It's a deluded opinion. This has to be one of the dumbest threads on this board in a while. That isn't a stat, it's my opinion.

We get it, you don't have any idea how players are developed, that players develop differently, and some players drafted, don't ever fully develop during their rookie career, or total career.

This thread should have died weeks ago!

[Moochthemonkey]

Markieff Morris is the only player that the Suns drafted in the past TEN years who they kept and developed in Phoenix.

Damn that's a telling stat.

It's a shame that those of us who want to see Warren get consistent playing time have to hope for an injury to a Suns player in order to see that happen.

And same thing with Len starting.

This is such a dysfunctional, log jam filled roster, holy crap.

Telling of what? The first half of those ten years (2004-2010) the Suns were contending for a championship, and they had three drafted players on the team for most of the time (Marion-Stoudemire-Barbosa).

Tucker and Plumlee are practically 'our' rookies as they played very sparingly in their first NBA seasons, yet it seems the same people who want to develop talent from within want them gone. Being in their late 20s is not a good excuse in and of itself.

The picks after that 'era' were Lawal (not NBA talent), Collins (not NBA talent), Markieff Morris, Kendall Marshall (borderline rotation player- I expect Ennis (whom Marshall was effectively traded for) to be better if he remains on the team), and the other players who are on the team now or are currently unsigned draft picks- too early to make a judgement all the same.

I wish Len was starting too (and he certainly will in due time), but all that really matters is that he continues to get consistent minutes. He's checking in earlier and playing at more meaningful points in the game. It's like the Lopez-Gortat situation in 2011; Lopez was playing poorly (not much better than Plumlee is now; statistically Lopez was worse in his last two seasons) but still started for a while and Gortat got the more meaningful minutes.

I fully expect Warren, Goodwin, and Ennis to get plenty of minutes if/once the Suns continue their losing ways- as was the case playing Marshall in '13 in the second half of the season. OKC is only 3 games behind and if the 8 teams that made the playoffs last year are fully healthy, it's going to be awfully hard to compete for that 8th seed. But if the Suns perform above standards again, then great. Anthony Davis and Blake Griffin didn't get much playing time/play at all in their first season and it didn't hold them back. Atleast the F/O is not making any panic moves by trying to trade one of the young guys for a borderline all star.

I'm just being patient, cautiously optimistic, and supporting and enjoying the team and whatever 'dysfunctional' group they have now.