Charles Barkley doesn't like the Suns 3 guard/tiny ball system

[3rdside]

And I can't really get behind the attitude that's kicking off with the team either; it's indicative of the cultural funk we're probably in. More like the Spurs please (less tech's) and less like us.

[Blackification]

I like how Barkley uses Portland and Dallas as the examples of teams we arent going to beat.. uh those would be the teams we have the best chance against in the playoffs lol

[RunDogGun]

Wasn't Charles around 6'5" on his best day, playing power forward? So basically if we moved Tucker to PF, Charles would think we are bigger?

Our three point guard, if that's what they really are (more like three shooting guards stuck in point guard bodies), don't play a significant time together. A little more recently, but for the most part, it's been a positive for us.

We just need some consistency, so much more hustle, smarter shots, better executed plays, and guys crashing the boards. We can do all of that, it's just effort and discipline.

We ISO too many guys, shoot way too many tough fade aways, and we make lazy passes, but all fixable, and not really a problem when we go small.

It's all effort that we are lacking. Almost the same group won 48 games last year, with the same coach. Effort! Effort! Effort!

[3rdside]

Wasn't Charles around 6'5" on his best day, playing power forward? So basically if we moved Tucker to PF, Charles would think we are bigger?

Our three point guard, if that's what they really are (more like three shooting guards stuck in point guard bodies), don't play a significant time together. A little more recently, but for the most part, it's been a positive for us.

We just need some consistency, so much more hustle, smarter shots, better executed plays, and guys crashing the boards. We can do all of that, it's just effort and discipline.

We ISO too many guys, shoot way too many tough fade aways, and we make lazy passes, but all fixable, and not really a problem when we go small.

It's all effort that we are lacking. Almost the same group won 48 games last year, with the same coach. Effort! Effort! Effort!

If every team could do it with a bit of effort and discipline then why doesn't everyone do it? Cause it's not easy. And a team which T's up and carries on like ours does is the last team you can expect to do that. Cultural Issues.

And it seems to be a recurring theme that rebounding is all about effort - it's not that simple. Saying a team can rebound more by trying harder is almost exactly the same as saying you should be able to score more by trying harder. You can a little (e.g. taking better shots) but rebounding, like shooting, is a skill in it's own right, partly determined by effort, but a lot to do with physical make up; length of arms, position of centre of gravity (e.g large ass good for low centre of gravity like Barkley, broad shoulders / tiny waist bad like Amare Stoudemire), height, vertical leap, instinct etc. My take on Markieff that he's no good at rebounding is cause he's not that tall and he's got short arms vs other PF's. Anyway, I digress..

[RunDogGun]

Rebounding can be taught just like everything else. I rebound quite well and I'm not very big. I just have a knack of where the ball is going to be, after shooting so many shots. Our guys rarely ever follow their shots, partly because we shoot so many fade aways, partly because they are watching their own shots instead of hustling after it in case of a miss. Green could literally double his rebounds just following his shot, or eyeing a deep shot bu a teammate. Our guys did quite well last year, so the ability is there, they just seem to lack consistent effort.

In the loss the other night, a solid effort was put forth to close the game. Sadly it wasn't enough, but that effort brought us back into the game. And if that effort can be done the whole game, we would be killing teams.
We are in a funk, and guys are getting frustrated too quickly, we lack effort way too often.

[3rdside]

I agree it can be taught but its takes talent and physical / mental attributes to be the best at it. J Kidd can never taught to be a good shooter like Ray Allen no matter how much he practices, like Markieff can never be taught to be a good rebounder like Rodman no matter how much he practices or hustles.

Hear you on the lack of suns' hustle though - derived from selfish attitudes running through the team that won't easily be ironed out cause of the personalities in the team, the poor roster make up that's leading to unhappy players / exacerbating the poor personalities and, probably, questionable leadership from Hornacek.

[Jarlaxle0204]

I agree it can be taught but its takes talent and physical / mental attributes to be the best at it. J Kidd can never taught to be a good shooter like Ray Allen no matter how much he practices, like Markieff can never be taught to be a good rebounder like Rodman no matter how much he practices or hustles.

You might not be able to be taught how to be the best at it but you can certainly become better much like Kidd did at shooting. He became quite a serviceable three point shooter later in his career. The players should always be striving to IMPROVE their game. No one is expecting Markieff to be the best rebounder of all time.

[NavLDO]

The three guard system is fine. Plenty of teams have a starting caliber guard on their bench.

That's not the issue.

Besides, Charles Barkley doesn't work for this team so I couldn't give a **** less what he thinks about this team.

Exactly. How is our roster make up any different than that of, say, Dallas. I mean, just look at their MPG for their Guards...

Devin Harris, PG---22.2 mpg
Raymond Felton, PG---7 mpg
Rajon Rondo, PG---27.5 mpg (since joining Dallas)
Monta Ellis, PG---33.8 mpg
JJ Barea, PG---15.8 mpg

Now, I know they all don't actually play PG, but that is their "listed" position. but point being, add those up, and you get 106 minutes, as opposed to our 3 PGs getting roughly 91 minutes.

I'm not sure why Phoenix is getting labeled as a 3 PG team, when other teams have similar minutes at their Guard positions. We just happen to have 3 starter worthy PGs, but so does Dallas with Ellis, Rondo, and Harris, as well as Barea. Now, Ellis plays SG, but so does Dragic...it's just both are capable of playing the 1.

The articles lists the Suns having the 28th, or 3rd worst, ranked defense, but it certainly doesn't highlight that the Suns are also the 3rd ranked offense in pts per game, and are actually 26th in opposing pts per game. So yeah, the Suns are a Offensively minded team, but it's not like we don't have players that can play defense. Len will eventually, most likely, be a top 5-7 Center on D. We have Bledsoe who is one of the best defensively minded PG in the league, and we have Tucker who is pretty darn good on D in comparison to other SFs in the league, right?

I'm not saying this article doesn't bring up some very valid points, but I think the whole "3-PG" system is overblown, IMO, and if we can get a PF, which I expect within the next year, who is better defensively than Kieff, and once Len starts actually playing full starter minutes--say 25-30 mpg, I think a lot of this goes away.

[Revived]

I have posted before that I believe the 3 pg system is a gimmick and is not a sustainable style of play if we want to go deep into the playoffs. It might be ok for short stints of time in certain games, but to have it as a fundamental feature of your offense is not a good foundation for success.

I particularly dislike the end of game small ball-3 pg system. Having 3 pg on the floor along with Tucker at the 4 and Makieff or Marcus at the 5 is an absolute joke and not serious basketball. I know Hornaceks stats say this is a productive line up but Really?

However, I don't blame Hornacek. He is trying to create the best system he can based on the talent he has been given. He has to balance egos, minutes, playing time etc. i'm sure he would like a different mix of talent that would allow him to play a different system.

I agree with most of your post but the last part, we have talent like Alex Len that we could which would eliminate many of the small ball problems. Against the Clippers for example, we waited way too long before putting him in the second half.

At one point, Marcus Morris was the Suns center. Marcus...Morris...

[gaspar]

Marcus played center only when we were down 15 points and doing hack-a-DJ.

Anyone with insider? http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/story/_/ ... nsthreePGs

[bwgood77]

Marcus played center only when we were down 15 points and doing hack-a-DJ.

Anyone with insider? http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/story/_/ ... nsthreePGs

When the Phoenix Suns signed guard Isaiah Thomas this summer to a four-year, $27 million deal, it was easy to see him as a replacement for Eric Bledsoe, who at the time was an unsigned restricted free agent. Thomas was an efficient scorer in Sacramento who had worn out his welcome with his tunnel vision, and if the Suns weren't going to be able to retain Bledsoe, Thomas was a reasonable facsimile for a fraction of the price who could play running mate to Goran Dragic.

Of course, Phoenix maintains it always envisioned a three-guard rotation, with Thomas taking over for the often outmatched Ish Smith, who struggled at times to shoulder the load of being a rotation guard, particularly when Bledsoe went down with injury.

The 11th-hour agreement on the eve of training camp with Bledsoe to stay for five years, $70 million presented the real-life dilemma of how to keep three high-usage point guards satisfied with just one basketball. Bledsoe and Dragic had developed an instant chemistry the season prior, playing off one another and alternating between being the primary ball handler and playing off the ball.

With the addition of Thomas, there was a lot of clamor for the Suns to run all three guards at the same time, but they were reluctant to turn to that combination, as the trio appeared in just 23 total minutes (average of about three minutes per game) prior to Thomas' early-season injury, and posted a plus-minus rating of minus-11. The chemistry wasn't quite there, as the team struggled to get a rhythm with Thomas, a gifted scorer who could become too ball dominant in his stretches, on the floor.

However, since Thomas' return in mid-December, the Suns have leaned more heavily on the three-guard lineup, which has played 117 minutes in 16 games and posted a plus-33. Head coach Jeff Hornacek has done an excellent job of balancing the rotation, allowing Bledsoe and Dragic to recapture their chemistry from a year ago and giving Thomas more free rein during the course of the game, saving the three-guard lineup for late-game situations to force opponents' hands into playing small, as well (which plays to the Suns' advantage), or being outplayed by the mismatches.

To wit, almost 54 percent of the three-guard lineup minutes in the past 16 games have come in the fourth quarter, with a plus-minus rating of plus-25 in 63 minutes. By also frequently closing with P.J. Tucker at the 4 spot and Markieff Morris at the 5, the Suns manage to turn the game into a track meet.

One can argue that sooner or later, Phoenix will run into difficulties trying to outquick every team -- Wednesday's matchup versus a big Washington Wizards team should be an interesting test -- but with the Suns holding a tenuous one-and-a-half-game lead on the eighth seed, it's important for them to embrace what they do well. By turning games into guerrilla warfare and forcing opponents to match their speed, they give themselves the best chance at being successful.

[BurningHeart]

The three guard system is fine. Plenty of teams have a starting caliber guard on their bench.

That's not the issue.

Besides, Charles Barkley doesn't work for this team so I couldn't give a **** less what he thinks about this team.

Exactly. How is our roster make up any different than that of, say, Dallas. I mean, just look at their MPG for their Guards...

Devin Harris, PG---22.2 mpg
Raymond Felton, PG---7 mpg
Rajon Rondo, PG---27.5 mpg (since joining Dallas)
Monta Ellis, PG---33.8 mpg
JJ Barea, PG---15.8 mpg

Now, I know they all don't actually play PG, but that is their "listed" position. but point being, add those up, and you get 106 minutes, as opposed to our 3 PGs getting roughly 91 minutes.

I'm not sure why Phoenix is getting labeled as a 3 PG team, when other teams have similar minutes at their Guard positions. We just happen to have 3 starter worthy PGs, but so does Dallas with Ellis, Rondo, and Harris, as well as Barea. Now, Ellis plays SG, but so does Dragic...it's just both are capable of playing the 1.

The articles lists the Suns having the 28th, or 3rd worst, ranked defense, but it certainly doesn't highlight that the Suns are also the 3rd ranked offense in pts per game, and are actually 26th in opposing pts per game. So yeah, the Suns are a Offensively minded team, but it's not like we don't have players that can play defense. Len will eventually, most likely, be a top 5-7 Center on D. We have Bledsoe who is one of the best defensively minded PG in the league, and we have Tucker who is pretty darn good on D in comparison to other SFs in the league, right?

I'm not saying this article doesn't bring up some very valid points, but I think the whole "3-PG" system is overblown, IMO, and if we can get a PF, which I expect within the next year, who is better defensively than Kieff, and once Len starts actually playing full starter minutes--say 25-30 mpg, I think a lot of this goes away.

Great post. The "three PG" thing is quickly becoming the trite, bull thing people say about the Suns when they don't really know anything else to say. It's so cliche and annoying as hell.

[schnakenpopanz]

the problem is not that there are 3 point guards with qualities on the roster. it is about committing, strategy and playing for the teams goal not your individual one. is IT a quality player? Yes. Is Dragic? Yes. Is Bledsoe? Yes.
But do the suns need all three of them in the role they see themselves? No.
Suns need an upgrade to their defense and not offense orientated players anymore. That is why Thomas is useless to me. We have Green, one chucker is enough.

[Revived]

the problem is not that there are 3 point guards with qualities on the roster. it is about committing, strategy and playing for the teams goal not your individual one. is IT a quality player? Yes. Is Dragic? Yes. Is Bledsoe? Yes.
But do the suns need all three of them in the role they see themselves? No.
Suns need an upgrade to their defense and not offense orientated players anymore. That is why Thomas is useless to me. We have Green, one chucker is enough.

Suns have never done this ever since Robert Sarver took over as owner. He's always showed more interest in improving the offense than the defense ever since 2004 when he took over.

[Cutter]

Wasn't Charles around 6'5" on his best day, playing power forward? So basically if we moved Tucker to PF, Charles would think we are bigger?

Our three point guard, if that's what they really are (more like three shooting guards stuck in point guard bodies), don't play a significant time together. A little more recently, but for the most part, it's been a positive for us.

We just need some consistency, so much more hustle, smarter shots, better executed plays, and guys crashing the boards. We can do all of that, it's just effort and discipline.

We ISO too many guys, shoot way too many tough fade aways, and we make lazy passes, but all fixable, and not really a problem when we go small.

It's all effort that we are lacking. Almost the same group won 48 games last year, with the same coach. Effort! Effort! Effort!

Haha great point. Charles was an undersized PF if there ever was one. Awesome player for his career, but really short for his position. I don't necessarily disagree with him, I just hopes he sees the irony in what he is saying about playing small.

[Cutter]

No one else sees the irony of a 6'6 power forward saying small-ball will never work?

Haha I said the same thing elsewhere!

[Scutt]

Lol at the posters bringing up Barkley's size. He may have been undersized, but he sure didn't play like it. The man averaged almost 12 rebounds a game over his NBA career. That 93 Suns team didn't feature 3 combo guards and a starting power forward that cant even grab 6 rebounds a game like our current team does.

[Frank Lee]

Thank you Scutt....

Chuck knows ball.

[RunDogGun]

And drink and food. Often lazy on defense,and turned our team from a fluid running squad to stand around and watch Chuck lose to Houston.

He could have won us a chip if he could stop partying.

[Cutter]

I don't think anyone under rates Chuck's tremendous skills and accomplishments. He was beast with the Suns and most of his career.