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2017 Draft Discussion Part 4: 3 Day Countdown!

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Re: Draft Discussion Part 4: 3 Day Countdown! 

Post#21 » by WeekapaugGroove » Mon Jun 19, 2017 2:35 pm

GetYourPHX wrote:
Frank Lee wrote:Isaac is the tape measure hero that is in every draft. His 'potential' teeter totter is more weighted on what he may become, rather than what he is.

Of the top 6 or 7 guys, doesn't he grade out as highest risk?

I have to go bird in the hand with this pick as we can't afford to draft another Len-type project that runs out their rookie deal and remains a question mark.

Fox or Monk for me. Markanen or Collins if we go big. I think we can address the wing slot with 32 as one of those scrabbley names will be available... Iwundu, Ojeleye, Anunoby... and frankly, those guys fit this squad much better than Isaac.

Not sold on Tatum, though he looks like a very safe pick, and dont think Jackson will be there BTW.

PS.... all things equal, intensity remains a very important characteristic.... Jackson and Fox are fierce competitors, Monk is an iceman assassin... and Collins has a Lambeerish chip. Lolly-poppers like Isaac and Ball need not apply.


You've successfully epitomized what the anti-Issac crowd doesn't get. There are two skills that historically translate well from college to the pros - defensive impact and rebounding. Issac is the best prospect in the generally mocked top 10 at those two, historically transferable skills.

Players don't inherently have a lot of bust potential just because they have a high ceiling. That's not how this process works. Issac is already an elite defender and rebounder, so his floor is pretty high as well.

The "floater" criticism, the "lack of a killer mentality" vein of thought,. the bust potential... all of that is just noise. You guys are buying a narrative instead of looking at statistics. No one in the accepted top 10, outside of Markelle Fultz, had the impact that Issac did when they were on the floor.


Thank you for posting that and it's very true. I'm fine with people not wanting Isaac but using the he's an all potential no production guy is crazy. He's a much more accomplished prospect than Bender was coming out; that's a guy who was truly drafted on potential because he played sparingly in Europe his last year. Isaac played in the best conference in the country and was a very productive player for FSU. He didn't shoot as much as some of the other top prospects but he did everything else well and when he did shoot the ball went in at a high % then most of the other top guys.

Better arguments would be he might have small hands for his size and sometimes doesn't seem to catch the ball cleanly (Jackson has small hands too BTW). Or the asthma thing as a concern especially for a running team. Or even that the suns coaching staff isn't creative enough to fully use his talents or play lineups with all three of him Chriss, and Bender.
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Re: Draft Discussion Part 4: 3 Day Countdown! 

Post#22 » by batsmasher » Mon Jun 19, 2017 2:38 pm

Frank Lee wrote:Sorry ... there is more noise than that. Im not buying into the 'durant-like build' hype. He is a prime example of a kid who needs 2-3 years to be able to assess his worth. stats dont show everything. Besides...we already have a long young project in Bender. Why duplicate it? I give Bender all the minutes he needs over this string bean.

Seems more an more, there is a valid reason to deal this pick. 4-10 are all flawed but each having their strengths. To me, its the weaknesses that are very much equal in determining the selection, if we keep it.

Stats certainly don't show everything but statistical translations are usually pretty accurate. And that is really all that matters when it comes to projecting NBA readiness.

I agree with you re: fit though. Can't see Chriss/Isaac/Bender ever sharing floor time which ultimately means we'd have to sacrifice the development of one of them, and that's not what you want to do this early on. Maybe Isaac/Bender could long term play some 3, but. that's a distant thought and not something we can do out of the gates.

WeekapaugGroove wrote:Or even that the suns coaching staff isn't creative enough to fully use his talents or play lineups with all three of him Chriss, and Bender.

Haha, I made this exact point via PM a few hours ago. "Creative" might be giving them more credit than they deserve - "competent" may be more accurate :P
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Re: Draft Discussion Part 4: 3 Day Countdown! 

Post#23 » by WeekapaugGroove » Mon Jun 19, 2017 2:51 pm

batsmasher wrote:
Frank Lee wrote:Sorry ... there is more noise than that. Im not buying into the 'durant-like build' hype. He is a prime example of a kid who needs 2-3 years to be able to assess his worth. stats dont show everything. Besides...we already have a long young project in Bender. Why duplicate it? I give Bender all the minutes he needs over this string bean.

Seems more an more, there is a valid reason to deal this pick. 4-10 are all flawed but each having their strengths. To me, its the weaknesses that are very much equal in determining the selection, if we keep it.

Stats certainly don't show everything but statistical translations are usually pretty accurate. And that is really all that matters when it comes to projecting NBA readiness.

I agree with you re: fit though. Can't see Chriss/Isaac/Bender ever sharing floor time which ultimately means we'd have to sacrifice the development of one of them, and that's not what you want to do this early on. Maybe Isaac/Bender could long term play some 3, but. that's a distant thought and not something we can do out of the gates.

WeekapaugGroove wrote:Or even that the suns coaching staff isn't creative enough to fully use his talents or play lineups with all three of him Chriss, and Bender.

Haha, I made this exact point via PM a few hours ago. "Creative" might be giving them more credit than they deserve - "competent" may be more accurate :P


Yeah as I mentioned it's a fair concern. Now the suns have to know this too and I guess the good news is if they don't feel like he would get minutes or would take them from Chriss or Bender then they won't take him at 4. If they do I would assume they have a plan (maybe a dangerous assumption). To me taking him would signal they have a plan to make this teams defensive identity a bunch of versatile long positionless players that they will come at teams with waves and try to out athletic them. I like that identity.
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Re: Draft Discussion Part 4: 3 Day Countdown! 

Post#24 » by bwgood77 » Mon Jun 19, 2017 3:23 pm

WeekapaugGroove wrote:
batsmasher wrote:
Frank Lee wrote:Sorry ... there is more noise than that. Im not buying into the 'durant-like build' hype. He is a prime example of a kid who needs 2-3 years to be able to assess his worth. stats dont show everything. Besides...we already have a long young project in Bender. Why duplicate it? I give Bender all the minutes he needs over this string bean.

Seems more an more, there is a valid reason to deal this pick. 4-10 are all flawed but each having their strengths. To me, its the weaknesses that are very much equal in determining the selection, if we keep it.

Stats certainly don't show everything but statistical translations are usually pretty accurate. And that is really all that matters when it comes to projecting NBA readiness.

I agree with you re: fit though. Can't see Chriss/Isaac/Bender ever sharing floor time which ultimately means we'd have to sacrifice the development of one of them, and that's not what you want to do this early on. Maybe Isaac/Bender could long term play some 3, but. that's a distant thought and not something we can do out of the gates.

WeekapaugGroove wrote:Or even that the suns coaching staff isn't creative enough to fully use his talents or play lineups with all three of him Chriss, and Bender.

Haha, I made this exact point via PM a few hours ago. "Creative" might be giving them more credit than they deserve - "competent" may be more accurate :P


Yeah as I mentioned it's a fair concern. Now the suns have to know this too and I guess the good news is if they don't feel like he would get minutes or would take them from Chriss or Bender then they won't take him at 4. If they do I would assume they have a plan (maybe a dangerous assumption). To me taking him would signal they have a plan to make this teams defensive identity a bunch of versatile long positionless players that they will come at teams with waves and try to out athletic them. I like that identity.


I think Isaac will need to start out at the 3. His size isn't much different that what Durant's was coming in, but he would be mostly strictly defense, spot up and dunking somewhat like Bender does, but I don't see why they both can't get spot minutes at the 3 for now, or have them play 3 and 4.

The whole thing we've been wanting was a defensive wing, and Tatum likely doesn't translate to that, so we are somewhat duplicating both Booker and to a lesser extent Warren, but least Warren doesn't need the ball in his hands and can score off cutters, etc.

I don't really want to take the ball out of Booker's hands by having another ISO player in Tatum...I'd much prefer a better complementary player who's strength was defense. Bledsoe takes the ball out of Booker's hands enough. I also think any of Isaac, Bender and Chriss can easily play 5 eventually in small ball lineups. Even if one comes off the bench that's fine. Some great players have done so in Giniobili, Harden, Iggy, etc. You want a solid 7 or 8 man rotation at least.
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Re: Draft Discussion Part 4: 3 Day Countdown! 

Post#25 » by bwgood77 » Mon Jun 19, 2017 3:26 pm

gaspar wrote:Bleh, Isaac would be such an uninspiring pick. Long limbs but no skills and no competitive fire. Bender 2.0. At least our goofy Croatian showed some potential as a ballhandler and passer.


He's got plenty of skills. Particularly on the defensive side which is what we need. Bleh is how I feel about Tatum though. So boring.
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Re: Draft Discussion Part 4: 3 Day Countdown! 

Post#26 » by BobbieL » Mon Jun 19, 2017 3:30 pm

bwgood77 wrote:
gaspar wrote:Bleh, Isaac would be such an uninspiring pick. Long limbs but no skills and no competitive fire. Bender 2.0. At least our goofy Croatian showed some potential as a ballhandler and passer.


He's got plenty of skills. Particularly on the defensive side which is what we need. Bleh is how I feel about Tatum though. So boring.


If Isaac projects to be the better defender/rebounder - that is the choice over Tatum. If Jackson projects to be a better defender over Isaac, and he is available - unless the personal baggage is too much, pick him.

I think the Suns have enough guys that potentially are scorers - they need a defender, rebounder. If Isaac can turn into a guy like Spider Salley - that would be a nice comp for me.
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Re: Draft Discussion Part 4: 3 Day Countdown! 

Post#27 » by bwgood77 » Mon Jun 19, 2017 3:30 pm

Interesting to think about that another thing about the Knight deal is that had we not traded that Lakers pick for him, WE have that instead of Philly, who used it plus the 3 to move to 1. If they don't have it they can't use it and we likely could have used the 4 plus that pick (with the protections Philly got) to move up and take Fultz. Boston would have had to have been ok with Jackson or Tatum though, which I think they are, or they wouldn't have traded down to 3.
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Re: Draft Discussion Part 4: 3 Day Countdown! 

Post#28 » by Tysons Elbow » Mon Jun 19, 2017 3:31 pm

Read on Twitter


Sorry if this was already posted. I use my iPhone to post & cant see tweets without switching over to web view. Which is a pain in the ass.


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Re: Draft Discussion Part 4: 3 Day Countdown! 

Post#29 » by JMac1 » Mon Jun 19, 2017 3:32 pm

We need more than one scorer just as much as we need defense at this point in time. Every great team has at least two guys who can get their own shot when needed, especially when the other is on the bench resting.

So I hope we don't put the defensive horse cart in front of the offensive cart, especially when the offensive guy is better at what he does than the defensive guy.
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Re: Draft Discussion Part 4: 3 Day Countdown! 

Post#30 » by JMac1 » Mon Jun 19, 2017 3:33 pm

Tysons Elbow wrote:
Read on Twitter


Sorry if this was already posted. I use my iPhone to post & cant see tweets without switching over to web view. Which is a pain in the ass.


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Don't do it!!!
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Re: Draft Discussion Part 4: 3 Day Countdown! 

Post#31 » by bwgood77 » Mon Jun 19, 2017 3:45 pm

JMac1 wrote:
Tysons Elbow wrote:
Read on Twitter


Sorry if this was already posted. I use my iPhone to post & cant see tweets without switching over to web view. Which is a pain in the ass.


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Don't do it!!!


They may have tried to move up, but I doubt it. It seems like as the years pass, the info Ford has is way off. I mean he never gets anything right anymore and even got called out for rearranging his mock AFTER the draft.

WOJ seems to be much more in tune with things. But here is what Ford said.

1. Philadelphia 76ers (via Celtics)
Markelle Fultz
Washington
Freshman
Guard

The Sixers have coveted Fultz for much of the past year and were disappointed when they fell to No. 3 on the night of the draft lottery. Now, a reported trade with Boston that is expected to take place this week would give them the No. 1 pick and a chance to draft Fultz.

They need a guard who can run the point, play off the ball, score, stretch the floor and defend both guard spots. Fultz checks all of those boxes in a way no one else in the draft can.

The cost to acquire the No. 1 pick was high (the No. 3 pick plus the Lakers' 2018 first-rounder if it falls between Nos. 2-5 or the Kings' unprotected 2019 first-rounder) but I think it will be worth it for the Sixers.

A big three of Joel Embiid, Ben Simmons and Fultz could dominate the league in a few years if they can all stay healthy.

2. Los Angeles Lakers
Lonzo Ball
UCLA
Freshman
Guard

The Lakers brought in Fultz on Thursday, Ball for a second time on Friday and then Jayson Tatum over the weekend. The Lakers also worked out Josh Jackson twice as well as De'Aaron Fox.

With Fultz likely going No. 1 to Philly, the field narrows down to Ball, Jackson, Tatum and Fox here. Sources in L.A. say that the Lakers have been moving closer and closer to selecting Ball in the past 48 hours. More than ever, he's the heavy favorite to get his wish to play for his hometown team.

2017 NBA draft
Get ready for Markelle Fultz, Lonzo Ball and the 2017 draft, with analysis from Chad Ford and other ESPN experts.

• Mock Draft 6.3
• Big Board 7.2
• Statistical projections
• Ford: Top 100 prospect rankings

However, that could change if L.A. ends up getting involved in a Paul George trade. George reportedly told the Indiana Pacers that he's leaving in 2018 and wants to play for the Lakers.

The Pacers are talking to multiple teams about a George deal, but if the Lakers offer the No. 2 pick the Pacers would have serious interest.

3. Boston Celtics (via 76ers)
Josh Jackson
Kansas
Freshman
Forward

Celtics president Danny Ainge wanted to maximize the return for the No. 1 pick, and the chance to pick up another valuable future pick by moving down just two spots seemed like a bargain for Boston.

The Celtics are high on Josh Jackson, but they also really like Ball and Tatum. Of the three, Tatum is the only one they've gotten in for a workout so far. Perhaps that will make a difference and tip the scales his way.

Another realistic scenario? The Celtics use No. 3 and the newly-acquired Lakers/Kings pick to make another run at either Jimmy Butler or Paul George.

I mocked out one potential trade scenario for the Bulls and Celtics on Sunday here.

4. Phoenix Suns
Jayson Tatum
Duke
Freshman
Forward

The Suns have been trying to trade up and have had conversations with both the Lakers and Celtics. Who are they after? Sources point to Ball as the target.

The Suns also covet Jackson, but he's off the board here.

If neither player is available it will come down to Tatum, Fox and Jonathan Isaac. Fox canceled a workout with the Suns last week and doesn't have plans to complete one before the draft, which has made drafting him more complicated. Isaac has the most upside, but the Suns drafted two players last year with long developmental timelines and aren't sure they're ready to do that with Isaac as well.

That has the Suns leaning toward Tatum right now.


http://insider.espn.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/19675199/chad-ford-nba-mock-draft-70-potential-trades-most-likely-picks-rounds
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Re: Draft Discussion Part 4: 3 Day Countdown! 

Post#32 » by bwgood77 » Mon Jun 19, 2017 3:50 pm

JMac1 wrote:We need more than one scorer just as much as we need defense at this point in time. Every great team has at least two guys who can get their own shot when needed, especially when the other is on the bench resting.

So I hope we don't put the defensive horse cart in front of the offensive cart, especially when the offensive guy is better at what he does than the defensive guy.


Not really. Check this out.

http://stats.nba.com/teams/defense/#!?sort=DEF_RATING&dir=-1&Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season
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Re: Draft Discussion Part 4: 3 Day Countdown! 

Post#33 » by BobbieL » Mon Jun 19, 2017 3:55 pm

bwgood77 wrote:
JMac1 wrote:We need more than one scorer just as much as we need defense at this point in time. Every great team has at least two guys who can get their own shot when needed, especially when the other is on the bench resting.

So I hope we don't put the defensive horse cart in front of the offensive cart, especially when the offensive guy is better at what he does than the defensive guy.


Not really. Check this out.

http://stats.nba.com/teams/defense/#!?sort=DEF_RATING&dir=-1&Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season


So, the Suns defense is pretty bad is what you are saying. It does need to improve at some point. Granted to JMacs point - you don't take the lesser player to take defense. But, its just not about who the better player is this year - longer term who can possibly be great.
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Re: Draft Discussion Part 4: 3 Day Countdown! 

Post#34 » by Sreister » Mon Jun 19, 2017 3:58 pm

My biggest thing for Isaac is can he be our future positonless Center? Can we sign Sauce for a 2-3 year deal to hold us over while Isaac gets bigger and turns into our Dray Green? Or even turn Bender into our future positionless Center and have Chriss and Isaac filling in as well? We don't seem to be in agreement that Len is in our future, at least not starting Center future.

So to me, this isn't about BPA, it also can be a great fit. Bender and Chriss do not make Isaac redundant, IMO. Rebounding, Defense, and positonless basketball is what our FO probably sees in Isaac and could make Len expendable.
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Re: Draft Discussion Part 4: 3 Day Countdown! 

Post#35 » by bwgood77 » Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:02 pm

BobbieL wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
JMac1 wrote:We need more than one scorer just as much as we need defense at this point in time. Every great team has at least two guys who can get their own shot when needed, especially when the other is on the bench resting.

So I hope we don't put the defensive horse cart in front of the offensive cart, especially when the offensive guy is better at what he does than the defensive guy.


Not really. Check this out.

http://stats.nba.com/teams/defense/#!?sort=DEF_RATING&dir=-1&Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season


So, the Suns defense is pretty bad is what you are saying. It does need to improve at some point. Granted to JMacs point - you don't take the lesser player to take defense. But, its just not about who the better player is this year - longer term who can possibly be great.

Right now Isaac is the lesser player on offense, and Tatum on defense. Isaac clearly has more upside though. Hopefully we pick between Jackson and Isaac though.
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Re: Draft Discussion Part 4: 3 Day Countdown! 

Post#36 » by bwgood77 » Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:05 pm

Sreister wrote:My biggest thing for Isaac is can he be our future positonless Center? Can we sign Sauce for a 2-3 year deal to hold us over while Isaac gets bigger and turns into our Dray Green? Or even turn Bender into our future positionless Center and have Chriss and Isaac filling in as well? We don't seem to be in agreement that Len is in our future, at least not starting Center future.

So to me, this isn't about BPA, it also can be a great fit. Bender and Chriss do not make Isaac redundant, IMO. Rebounding, Defense, and positonless basketball is what our FO probably sees in Isaac and could make Len expendable.

Yes in time I think they both can, moreso Isaac. But yeah, getting away from calling people old outdated positions should be the way to look at it. For now, Isaac can guard 1-4 positions though, at least according to DX
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Re: Draft Discussion Part 4: 3 Day Countdown! 

Post#37 » by BobbieL » Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:08 pm

bwgood77 wrote:
BobbieL wrote:


So, the Suns defense is pretty bad is what you are saying. It does need to improve at some point. Granted to JMacs point - you don't take the lesser player to take defense. But, its just not about who the better player is this year - longer term who can possibly be great.

Right now Isaac is the lesser player on offense, and Tatum on defense. Isaac clearly has more upside though. Hopefully we pick between Jackson and Isaac though.


I agree - if its not Ball and they go forward, the order for me is Jackson, Isaac, Tatum
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Re: Draft Discussion Part 4: 3 Day Countdown! 

Post#38 » by darealjuice » Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:31 pm

Read on Twitter


Couple of guys in for their second workout, should be our last one before the draft
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Re: Draft Discussion Part 4: 3 Day Countdown! 

Post#39 » by Jarlaxle0204 » Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:33 pm



This was a pretty interesting listen on the state of the Suns regarding draft and direction with player evaluations which I think is pretty much spot on all around. The Suns talk starts at 32:40.
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Re: Draft Discussion Part 4: 3 Day Countdown! 

Post#40 » by Waylay13 » Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:45 pm

bwgood77 wrote:
Sreister wrote:My biggest thing for Isaac is can he be our future positonless Center? Can we sign Sauce for a 2-3 year deal to hold us over while Isaac gets bigger and turns into our Dray Green? Or even turn Bender into our future positionless Center and have Chriss and Isaac filling in as well? We don't seem to be in agreement that Len is in our future, at least not starting Center future.

So to me, this isn't about BPA, it also can be a great fit. Bender and Chriss do not make Isaac redundant, IMO. Rebounding, Defense, and positonless basketball is what our FO probably sees in Isaac and could make Len expendable.

Yes in time I think they both can, moreso Isaac. But yeah, getting away from calling people old outdated positions should be the way to look at it. For now, Isaac can guard 1-4 positions though, at least according to DX


Positionless basketball is good area to aim for but the secret for positionless basketball isnt that the players can do less but they have to do more. you need more rebounding, shot blocking, ball handling and passing form everyone or it doesnt work. I hope I am wrong but I am not seeing the ball handling or passing out of Isaac to be a small forward and Chriss doesnt have those skills yet.
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