Moderators: bwgood77, lilfishi22, Qwigglez
KdoubleDees23 wrote:Ghost of Kleine wrote:
Anyone remember a summer or two ago when I was suggesting bringing him back as our backup PG off the bench before he was scooped up by Cleveland as an unrestricted free agent? But really, what do us fans know huh?...lol
Ty Jerome is not good . Why you pushing some false information as he would do anything for this team
KdoubleDees23 wrote:Ghost of Kleine wrote:
Anyone remember a summer or two ago when I was suggesting bringing him back as our backup PG off the bench before he was scooped up by Cleveland as an unrestricted free agent? But really, what do us fans know huh?...lol
Ty Jerome is not good . Why you pushing some false information as he would do anything for this team
lilfishi22 wrote:Ghost of Kleine wrote:lilfishi22 wrote:
My argument is that KD would not seriously consider Washington. I did not say it was impossible he'd go there. I did not say it was impossible a potential Washington thought bubble couldn't float by his mind. I said it would not be a serious consideration given where they are and how far they are from building an attractive proposition for him to seriously consider.
From my perspective, KD’s whole career has been about competing at the highest level, aligning with others who are also at the top, and chasing championships. His body of work shows a consistent pattern of striving for greatness and trying to win at the highest level, so it makes far more sense that he'd stay in that kind of environment. My view is grounded in that career trajectory.
On the flip side, your argument suggests that suddenly, out of nowhere, KD’s going to make this drastic pivot to the worst team in the league just because he's from there. That’s why our arguments don’t have equal weight. While both scenarios might be theoretically possible, they’re not equally likely based on everything KD’s done up until now.
I will agree, I can't rule out Washington just as I can't rule out the Jackjumpers or some team in the CBA. That's as far as I can get with agreeing with your argument.
I get what you're trying to say in that your using patterns throughout a large sample to assess probability standards. But again we're not dealing in absolutes here. And you can't really say just because his past indicates one behavior pattern or tendency, that pattern is immutable or eternally constant.
Also, absent of being legitimately psychically gifted (...are you???) You're not reading his mind or can accurately interpret how he chooses situations in the future because the variables/ factors are not constants. So at best, we're both still only speculating from.our own opinions. Equity of outcome in varying situations being factors too.
As we know of people and situational dynamics, people's views can of course change over time and with accumulation of experience or in accomplishing goals.
In a very simple metaphor, it's like going to a buffet when really hungry and eating till your full. Now in the beginning, you may be insatiable hungry and have one top prioritized goal of quenching that overwhelming sense of hunger.
But as you continue to eat and fill up on food, that same hunger dissipates and is no longer the biggest priority. Now that the overwhelming or obsessive factor has been addressed, it obviously becomes much less of a factor.
In other areas of life, apply thos metaphor to the premise around KD? Because even if you build your position in the premise of KD being very competitive forever, I've already pointed out that (aside from singular familial and close friends connections) I spoke to the chance of KD raising up his hometown franchise to prominence and competitive viability.
What bigger competitive challenge and statement of his unmatched greatness could their be towards adding to his overall legacy??
But even if you can't envision/ consider
that angle, I will repeat in correlation to my hunger metaphor above.
In that in a competitive prism, he's again already established an incredible HOF historically dominant career status and cemented himself as an all time historically great legendary player in his craft.
So maybe it's possible that he no longer has that same overwhelming or insatiable hunger to pursue that same dynamic because he's obviously achieved the highest levels in a multitude of areas to his craft! Consider these count numbers points to your positional statements man:
He likely wants to chase a championship? ............He's already achieved that twice!
- What he wants to prove he's an all time great in basketball history?
....................He's already achieved that too!
- But maybe he wants to add to his legacy though?
............. What better way to do that than to lift his hometown franchise from obscurity to relevance competitively while also adding to his personal accolades in the process as the main franchise guy! And also be revered further in his own hometown in front of family and friends? That would cement his legacy forever as the savior of the franchise.
- Wait but he may now prioritize playing with some of his basketball friends?
........Ok, they have plenty of assets to trade for some of whoever that might he or again have mechanisms to create cap flexibility to sign whatever players (within reason) that he may choose.
- But he may likely prefer to play on a playoff team though with foundational pieces?
.............Again, refer to the above premise of assets and mechanisms to competitively pivot rather quickly. And also consider Sarr, Coulilaby, and what if they win the Cooper Flagg sweepstakes too? Would those not be considered foundational pieces?
Also, the premise of the east being a much easier pathway to even getting into the playoffs than in the west, as evidenced year after year by records/ standings.
You speak to KD making sudden drastic changes, but again, neither of us being mind readers and absent KD coming out publicly and saying what his plans might be, no one knows If a decision we as fans may consider drastic on the surface may he viewed through the same lens as we do.
We don't know if he might have been quietly considering such premises and weighing the contextual variables toward such a premise? Has KD or other big name players made surprising decisions that people didn't see coming or didn't expect in the past?
Again the human element of unpredictability always a factor. And once you've pretty much achieved everything in your career, etc. Priorities can drastically change, even if people on the outside of such situations aren't expecting it or can't rationalize it.
You can exercise your assessments around probabilities and that's practical and fine. But again, even then the scalability of probabilities is ranging because celebrities, professional athletes and famous people in general are not confined or restricted by the same situational conditions or variables as we all are. So there thought process and value system for equity of outcome can he vastly different to our interpretations or considerations.
Basically what makes sense to us through a more limited scope of consideration and factors wouldn't necessarily apply/ affect their process of selection in such decisions. This makes those probabilities significantly more feasible/ likely as they not confined by the same degrees of consequences as the rest of us.
And I never dealt with absolutes. I've always maintained possibilities are possibilities. But just because a possibility is a possibility, doesn't make likelihoods equivalent. I don't need to read his mind to think it's super unlikely he'll retire tomorrow and join some team on the other side of the world even if that's a possibility. And just because past actions doesn't guarantee future outcomes, you can't just throw it entirely all away and suggest a very unlikely outcome is therefore equivalent to a more likely outcome based on past trends and behaviours. And human behaviours, for the vast majority of the population, is one of the more predictable things in life. Someone having done something for 20 years, will likely continue to do something within a similar scope and not just suddenly do a 180. It's not impossible they could do something completely different but if you're betting on the most likely outcome, that would not be what you'd put money on.
Quite simply, it's far more likely KD will continue to look for a spot where he can have a legitimate shot at winning rather than go to the worst team in the league to start building from virtually nothing. This is not what he will absolute do or absolutely won't do. This is what he is likely to do. You've spent al this time arguing a pretty unlikely scenario based on a random suggestion Melo made. We both agree it's possible but we both have to agree it's very unlikely right?
Ghost of Kleine wrote:sunsbg wrote:Weird as Ty Jerome looks like someone a father will want for his daughters to marry. I don't know what is Bud's problem with Dunn. He used to play him against those shorter PGs like Brunson and would've been of help against Morant. Royce is quite average defender.
We'll I mean we know that he's surely no Shamet!!
So maybe that's just it??
schnakenpopanz wrote:Ghost of Kleine wrote:sunsbg wrote:Weird as Ty Jerome looks like someone a father will want for his daughters to marry. I don't know what is Bud's problem with Dunn. He used to play him against those shorter PGs like Brunson and would've been of help against Morant. Royce is quite average defender.
We'll I mean we know that he's surely no Shamet!!
So maybe that's just it??
it is sad to see that cam payne, bridges and yes shamet are making a playoff run with the knicks. good for them, they deserved better and not such a lousy franchise like the suns who traded them away and their future
Ghost of Kleine wrote:lilfishi22 wrote:Ghost of Kleine wrote:
I get what you're trying to say in that your using patterns throughout a large sample to assess probability standards. But again we're not dealing in absolutes here. And you can't really say just because his past indicates one behavior pattern or tendency, that pattern is immutable or eternally constant.
Also, absent of being legitimately psychically gifted (...are you???) You're not reading his mind or can accurately interpret how he chooses situations in the future because the variables/ factors are not constants. So at best, we're both still only speculating from.our own opinions. Equity of outcome in varying situations being factors too.
As we know of people and situational dynamics, people's views can of course change over time and with accumulation of experience or in accomplishing goals.
In a very simple metaphor, it's like going to a buffet when really hungry and eating till your full. Now in the beginning, you may be insatiable hungry and have one top prioritized goal of quenching that overwhelming sense of hunger.
But as you continue to eat and fill up on food, that same hunger dissipates and is no longer the biggest priority. Now that the overwhelming or obsessive factor has been addressed, it obviously becomes much less of a factor.
In other areas of life, apply thos metaphor to the premise around KD? Because even if you build your position in the premise of KD being very competitive forever, I've already pointed out that (aside from singular familial and close friends connections) I spoke to the chance of KD raising up his hometown franchise to prominence and competitive viability.
What bigger competitive challenge and statement of his unmatched greatness could their be towards adding to his overall legacy??
But even if you can't envision/ consider
that angle, I will repeat in correlation to my hunger metaphor above.
In that in a competitive prism, he's again already established an incredible HOF historically dominant career status and cemented himself as an all time historically great legendary player in his craft.
So maybe it's possible that he no longer has that same overwhelming or insatiable hunger to pursue that same dynamic because he's obviously achieved the highest levels in a multitude of areas to his craft! Consider these count numbers points to your positional statements man:
He likely wants to chase a championship? ............He's already achieved that twice!
- What he wants to prove he's an all time great in basketball history?
....................He's already achieved that too!
- But maybe he wants to add to his legacy though?
............. What better way to do that than to lift his hometown franchise from obscurity to relevance competitively while also adding to his personal accolades in the process as the main franchise guy! And also be revered further in his own hometown in front of family and friends? That would cement his legacy forever as the savior of the franchise.
- Wait but he may now prioritize playing with some of his basketball friends?
........Ok, they have plenty of assets to trade for some of whoever that might he or again have mechanisms to create cap flexibility to sign whatever players (within reason) that he may choose.
- But he may likely prefer to play on a playoff team though with foundational pieces?
.............Again, refer to the above premise of assets and mechanisms to competitively pivot rather quickly. And also consider Sarr, Coulilaby, and what if they win the Cooper Flagg sweepstakes too? Would those not be considered foundational pieces?
Also, the premise of the east being a much easier pathway to even getting into the playoffs than in the west, as evidenced year after year by records/ standings.
You speak to KD making sudden drastic changes, but again, neither of us being mind readers and absent KD coming out publicly and saying what his plans might be, no one knows If a decision we as fans may consider drastic on the surface may he viewed through the same lens as we do.
We don't know if he might have been quietly considering such premises and weighing the contextual variables toward such a premise? Has KD or other big name players made surprising decisions that people didn't see coming or didn't expect in the past?
Again the human element of unpredictability always a factor. And once you've pretty much achieved everything in your career, etc. Priorities can drastically change, even if people on the outside of such situations aren't expecting it or can't rationalize it.
You can exercise your assessments around probabilities and that's practical and fine. But again, even then the scalability of probabilities is ranging because celebrities, professional athletes and famous people in general are not confined or restricted by the same situational conditions or variables as we all are. So there thought process and value system for equity of outcome can he vastly different to our interpretations or considerations.
Basically what makes sense to us through a more limited scope of consideration and factors wouldn't necessarily apply/ affect their process of selection in such decisions. This makes those probabilities significantly more feasible/ likely as they not confined by the same degrees of consequences as the rest of us.
And I never dealt with absolutes. I've always maintained possibilities are possibilities. But just because a possibility is a possibility, doesn't make likelihoods equivalent. I don't need to read his mind to think it's super unlikely he'll retire tomorrow and join some team on the other side of the world even if that's a possibility. And just because past actions doesn't guarantee future outcomes, you can't just throw it entirely all away and suggest a very unlikely outcome is therefore equivalent to a more likely outcome based on past trends and behaviours. And human behaviours, for the vast majority of the population, is one of the more predictable things in life. Someone having done something for 20 years, will likely continue to do something within a similar scope and not just suddenly do a 180. It's not impossible they could do something completely different but if you're betting on the most likely outcome, that would not be what you'd put money on.
Quite simply, it's far more likely KD will continue to look for a spot where he can have a legitimate shot at winning rather than go to the worst team in the league to start building from virtually nothing. This is not what he will absolute do or absolutely won't do. This is what he is likely to do. You've spent al this time arguing a pretty unlikely scenario based on a random suggestion Melo made. We both agree it's possible but we both have to agree it's very unlikely right?
Although I do absolutely understand your reasoning and logic for your position, and both acknowledging that we're not dealing with absolutes and that possibility does not equal likelihood of probability, neither of us can speak on someone else's thought processes or value systems in specific situations that we are both detached from contextually.
The arguments we both are making are theoretical inferences on what we ourselves believe or interpret him to do based upon how we percieve the context of the situation. In that I can't fully say it's very unlikely, because we simply don't know his thought processes in correlation to each specific premise. Sure you can attribute past patterns as a correlate assessment mechanism if you like man and there's nothing wrong with that and siding on base predictability.
I'm just saying that there's a multitude of factors that are implicit in such decisions and anyone can say they expect a specific outcome based on past patterns. But to the point of human nature, people evolve, situations change, perspectives change too in correlation to varying contextual dynamics involved. To your position, again not dealing with absolutes here and also dealing with unknown factors/ variables of influence that may be present and influence such decisions.
The best you can claim is the probability based upon what you would interpret him to do in a specific situation. But people are really not that predictable. And even the ones that are relatively consistent in pattern behaviors can change or be affected by factors that we both are likely unaware of.
And those factors make possibilities even ones you might determine ( under normal circumstances) highly unlikely or "a safe bet position" more ranging to both extremes. Again your points are valid, but it's just hard to tell beyond subjective opinions what the outcome could be without knowing all of the factors involved that could sway outcome.
I will give you though that under normal ranges of conditions, with only base conditional factors present, it could be highly unlikely. And that's honestly about as close as I could come to equitable compromise on this premise without knowing the full range of factors/ influences involved for further dissemination.
But I do love your salient points for reflection and the intellectual discourse you bring in your responses. Even if I can't fully agree on outcome without full range of conditions being known.
SunsRback4Good wrote:schnakenpopanz wrote:Ghost of Kleine wrote:
We'll I mean we know that he's surely no Shamet!!
So maybe that's just it??
it is sad to see that cam payne, bridges and yes shamet are making a playoff run with the knicks. good for them, they deserved better and not such a lousy franchise like the suns who traded them away and their future
They chose to leave not the other way around.
Ghost of Kleine wrote:
Do you guys agree with this value assessment for Booker? Personally, I have him as better than Mitchell despite having a down season and stinking it up a bit here and there. But I think 3 1sts and two swaps and players like a Markannen/ Sexton combo as premium value for Booker maybe just a bit slightly rich! Still though I think he's clearly better than Mitchell when focused and not just indifferent, passive or "unbothered"!
Puff wrote:I doubt that there will be the fallout from fans if we do trade Booker that happened when Dallas traded Doncic, to all teams, the Lakers. I would have no problem if the return we get it what has been suggested.
If we trade both of them they could be really fun to watch again. I just hope Bud follows them out the door.
Slim Charless wrote:Ghost of Kleine wrote:
Do you guys agree with this value assessment for Booker? Personally, I have him as better than Mitchell despite having a down season and stinking it up a bit here and there. But I think 3 1sts and two swaps and players like a Markannen/ Sexton combo as premium value for Booker maybe just a bit slightly rich! Still though I think he's clearly better than Mitchell when focused and not just indifferent, passive or "unbothered"!
You're thinking of current Lauri. He wasn't this guy when Cleveland traded him. Far sight worse and way less effective. So think of a guy like a Jabari-a high pick who couldn't quite put it together, but better.
lilfishi22 wrote:Ghost of Kleine wrote:lilfishi22 wrote:And I never dealt with absolutes. I've always maintained possibilities are possibilities. But just because a possibility is a possibility, doesn't make likelihoods equivalent. I don't need to read his mind to think it's super unlikely he'll retire tomorrow and join some team on the other side of the world even if that's a possibility. And just because past actions doesn't guarantee future outcomes, you can't just throw it entirely all away and suggest a very unlikely outcome is therefore equivalent to a more likely outcome based on past trends and behaviours. And human behaviours, for the vast majority of the population, is one of the more predictable things in life. Someone having done something for 20 years, will likely continue to do something within a similar scope and not just suddenly do a 180. It's not impossible they could do something completely different but if you're betting on the most likely outcome, that would not be what you'd put money on.
Quite simply, it's far more likely KD will continue to look for a spot where he can have a legitimate shot at winning rather than go to the worst team in the league to start building from virtually nothing. This is not what he will absolute do or absolutely won't do. This is what he is likely to do. You've spent al this time arguing a pretty unlikely scenario based on a random suggestion Melo made. We both agree it's possible but we both have to agree it's very unlikely right?
Although I do absolutely understand your reasoning and logic for your position, and both acknowledging that we're not dealing with absolutes and that possibility does not equal likelihood of probability, neither of us can speak on someone else's thought processes or value systems in specific situations that we are both detached from contextually.
The arguments we both are making are theoretical inferences on what we ourselves believe or interpret him to do based upon how we percieve the context of the situation. In that I can't fully say it's very unlikely, because we simply don't know his thought processes in correlation to each specific premise. Sure you can attribute past patterns as a correlate assessment mechanism if you like man and there's nothing wrong with that and siding on base predictability.
I'm just saying that there's a multitude of factors that are implicit in such decisions and anyone can say they expect a specific outcome based on past patterns. But to the point of human nature, people evolve, situations change, perspectives change too in correlation to varying contextual dynamics involved. To your position, again not dealing with absolutes here and also dealing with unknown factors/ variables of influence that may be present and influence such decisions.
The best you can claim is the probability based upon what you would interpret him to do in a specific situation. But people are really not that predictable. And even the ones that are relatively consistent in pattern behaviors can change or be affected by factors that we both are likely unaware of.
And those factors make possibilities even ones you might determine ( under normal circumstances) highly unlikely or "a safe bet position" more ranging to both extremes. Again your points are valid, but it's just hard to tell beyond subjective opinions what the outcome could be without knowing all of the factors involved that could sway outcome.
I will give you though that under normal ranges of conditions, with only base conditional factors present, it could be highly unlikely. And that's honestly about as close as I could come to equitable compromise on this premise without knowing the full range of factors/ influences involved for further dissemination.
But I do love your salient points for reflection and the intellectual discourse you bring in your responses. Even if I can't fully agree on outcome without full range of conditions being known.
But you're essentially saying that if we can't know KD 100% fully, then all possibilities are relevant and equivalent which just isn't true. While we can't know everything for sure, that doesn't mean we can't make good presumptions and predictions based on the past. In fact, that’s what we do every day. We know it’s possible we could fall into a sinkhole and die tomorrow, but we also know the probability of that happening is extremely low. Instead of staying home and avoiding the world over that tiny possibility, we go about our day.
That’s the exact thought process I apply when writing these posts. We may not know exactly what KD or anyone else is thinking at any given moment, and yes, their thoughts could change. But despite the potential for unpredictability, most people are still relatively predictable based on past behaviour. If you lend someone money multiple times and they fail to pay you back and they ask again, are you expecting them to pay it back or do you So while we can't know for certain what KD is thinking, we can make a pretty educated guess about what he's likely not seriously considering, given what we know of his past actions.
When you argue that everything is a possibility, you're not adding anything substantive to the discussion
lilfishi22 wrote:Puff wrote:I doubt that there will be the fallout from fans if we do trade Booker that happened when Dallas traded Doncic, to all teams, the Lakers. I would have no problem if the return we get it what has been suggested.
If we trade both of them they could be really fun to watch again. I just hope Bud follows them out the door.
The Luka situation was clearly a pretty dramatic pivot that no one saw coming and made worse by the poor return. I don't expect Book to get traded, nor do I wish for us to trade him but if he was moved, I wouldn't be blindsided like Mavs fans were. I just hope we get a good haul for him.
