Suns Offseason Thread V: I Am My Brother's Kieffer

[bwgood77]

The more I think of it, the more I hate the 2 pg system. It's like have two quarterbacks playing at the same time in football. One becomes almost useless (see what happens when when Goran is forced to play out of position, last year. Although he played well, he wasn't half as good). I would use the preseason and see who is best suited. Whoever loses the battle comes off the bench. I could care less about their salaries.

I can't say I'm a huge fan of it just as a concept, but I don't know that either are a pure great floor general. Yet they both can handle the ball and they have different strengths. That's why I don't mind that they are the starting guards. Neither are good enough to do all the ball handling all the time, but they don't have to. We really haven't ever not had a fantastic pg since like 87 (Marbury maybe not great, but thought highly enough of to trade straight up for Kidd)....neither Dragic or Bledsoe were up to the levels we had prior to them or one of them being the guys, but together they worked pretty well. I just hope it works again, because that is what we seem to be stuck with.

[saintEscaton]

Why would you do that? Noel and Len are about even on defense, and Len is indisputably better on offense.

I have high hopes for Len. But as of now no they are not "about even" on defense. I'v e made enough well-thought out posts for today but I'll leave you with this instead of another sprawling wall of text no one will even bother to read. Noel's Defensive Box Plus/Minus ranking was second in the NBA, opposing players shot only 45 percent at the basket against him,and the Sixers surrendered 99.5 points per 100 possession.When he was on the court the Sixers went from being a league bottom defense to the second best. Len's only edges him out in contested FG% and his points saved per 36 minutes

Noel got those stats playing on the worst team in the league in the eastern conference. Len got his stats playing on a borderline playoff team (for most of the season) in the brutal western conference. If Noel played the majority of his games against western conference teams (as Len does) those stats wouldn't look near what they do. When evaluating talent, looking at stats is super important, but then you have to consider context as to the environment in which those stats were achieved.

I'm sure he still would have outperformed Len if he was out West. Sure Len had a monster stretch between December and January of this year when he was first inserted into the starting lineup and broke out but he didn't sustain it and eventually succumbed to lingering injuries heading into the All-Star break and fizzled out. Noel played in less total games but still started more and played signfiicantly higher minutes so I think he's relatively more proven at this point of both their careers. Both either barely or did not play at all in their actual rookie seasons so they were almost equally behind the curve and neither one had a head start. Ultimately I think Gobert runs away with this hands down.

[tdjm]

I don't like the 2 PG system either, but I can't imagine it's ACTUALLY in the super long term plans of the franchise. Maybe I'm just in denial, but every year since arriving McDonough has drafted a SG. The two PG crap and acquiring so many of them feels more like a concession to the fact that good SGs are hard to find and good PGs are not rather than actually ideologically loving it.

There's a pretty solid chance even next year that the 2 PG aspect is greatly diminished, and that chance increases as the years go on and players continue to develop. If any one of Weems, Goodwin, or Booker (hell, throw in future Bogdanovic too, why not) ends up being not terrible and deserving of minutes, it's Knight who's going to lose them unless he makes a major jump. He's been a minus on defense his whole career, he could very easily get pushed to mostly backup PG by the emergence of any one of the SGs within the next few years (fingers crossed, the less Knight plays the better I feel we will be).

I don't much care that Bledsoe and Knight are not great distributors, honestly. It really only matters if the rest of your team sucks. if they're your 1st and 2nd best players, then yeah, you're in trouble since they need to dominate the ball and aren't good enough to do so well. I think Bledsoe and Knight are perfectly fine as 3rd and 4th best players respectively, though. They are fine PGs if you have better players to handle other duties. I would worry less about replacing them and more about replacing other people on the roster, although I wouldn't hesitate to part with either if I needed to to make the team better.

[Cutter]

I don't think Noel is proven at all....he has only played one year. Len is slightly more proven as he has played 2 years. However Len's first year was basically recovering from double ankle surgery in the off season of his rookie year.

Again, Noel started last year because he plays on such a terrible team. I see no logical way his stats are better,or the same, if he played in the brutal west conference versus the east conference.

Anyway, they both have a long ways to go to establish themselves as legit, top centers in the NBA. They play in entirely different systems, in different leagues. For the next several years they will be compared to each other, and over the years the cream will rise to the top. Due to Len's ability to play both ends of the court I think most GM's would rate Len higher than Noel, based on potential. If a real world GM needed a defensive specialist only they might be interested in Noel.

[AtheJ415]

Didn't our staff remove Noel from our draft board because the training staff believed his knee wouldn't hold up? That's another knock on him, and a huge one at that.

[Safety Pickle]

Wall is a much better player than Bledsoe and those of you saying otherwise are crazy

[JohnWall2]

Bledsoe better than Wall? Thats just nuts

[RaisingArizona]

Bledsoe better than Wall? Thats just nuts

Thanks, John Wall.

[JohnWall2]

Bledsoe better than Wall? Thats just nuts

Thanks, John Wall.

I'm a Suns and Wall fan so feel I can look at this objectively lol. But yeah, I don't see how you can make the argument. You disagree?

[letsgosuns]

When you go to basketball reference and average Bledsoe's career numbers with the Suns as a starter and compare them to John Wall's career numbers, they are virtually identical across the board, except for assists. Now assists are a huge deal and that is what separates Wall from Bledsoe. Wall legitimately averaged 10.0 assists last season and that is really hard to do. That is the deal breaker why you would have to give Wall the nod over Bledsoe right now. However, I would not buy the argument that Wall has led his team to the playoffs multiple times and is a two time all star because he plays in the East. We all know the East is a complete joke compared to the West. Bledsoe would be in all star in the East too and the Suns would have been in the playoffs the past couple of years had they played in the East. Either way, I like both Bledsoe and Wall but I think neither is a superstar and they need a superstar to play with to go to the next level.

[Saberestar]

Didn't our staff remove Noel from our draft board because the training staff believed his knee wouldn't hold up? That's another knock on him, and a huge one at that.

No, it was because our training staff weren't allowed to obtain his full medical history and they weren't able to see that knee.
Noel and his agent thought at the moment that he was Top 3 for sure.

Noel is a modern C, s the perfect C for an uptempo team who really wants to go up and down, switch on defense and press in the perimeter. This guy can defend the pick-and-roll , switch with guards, create havoc with his quickness and is one of the best shot blockers in the league already...and he is even one year younger than Len. I like Len, but I think Noel is the better player.

[JohnWall2]

When you go to basketball reference and average Bledsoe's career numbers with the Suns as a starter and compare them to John Wall's career numbers, they are virtually identical across the board, except for assists. Now assists are a huge deal and that is what separates Wall from Bledsoe. Wall legitimately averaged 10.0 assists last season and that is really hard to do. That is the deal breaker why you would have to give Wall the nod over Bledsoe right now. However, I would not buy the argument that Wall has led his team to the playoffs multiple times and is a two time all star because he plays in the East. We all know the East is a complete joke compared to the West. Bledsoe would be in all star in the East too and the Suns would have been in the playoffs the past couple of years had they played in the East. Either way, I like both Bledsoe and Wall but I think neither is a superstar and they need a superstar to play with to go to the next level.

If we had John Wall in our team over Bled then we would have made the playoffs the last 2 seasons ourselves. Dude is easily one of the best PG's in the game and just entering his prime.

[Mr Puddles]

Bledsoe better than Wall? Thats just nuts

You clearly have no idea what you're talking about

[King4Day]

I haven't read back but if anyone truly believes Bledsoe is better than Wall, please don't mention it in the General Board. Other team fans will no longer take Suns fans seriously anymore and I wouldn't blame them.

[Frank Lee]

When you go to basketball reference and average Bledsoe's career numbers with the Suns as a starter and compare them to John Wall's career numbers, they are virtually identical across the board, except for assists. Now assists are a huge deal and that is what separates Wall from Bledsoe. Wall legitimately averaged 10.0 assists last season and that is really hard to do. That is the deal breaker why you would have to give Wall the nod over Bledsoe right now. However, I would not buy the argument that Wall has led his team to the playoffs multiple times and is a two time all star because he plays in the East. We all know the East is a complete joke compared to the West. Bledsoe would be in all star in the East too and the Suns would have been in the playoffs the past couple of years had they played in the East. Either way, I like both Bledsoe and Wall but I think neither is a superstar and they need a superstar to play with to go to the next level.

Last yr, we would have been just be part of the fodder in the east, along with the other mediocres. A bad team is still a bad team, regardless if its the 8th seed. And this willy-nilly toss around of 'who would be an AllStar' is meritless. You do make a good point for non-analytics though.

......
I don't much care that Bledsoe and Knight are not great distributors, honestly. It really only matters if the rest of your team sucks. if they're your 1st and 2nd best players, then yeah, you're in trouble since they need to dominate the ball and aren't good enough to do so well. I think Bledsoe and Knight are perfectly fine as 3rd and 4th best players respectively, though. They are fine PGs if you have better players to handle other duties. I would worry less about replacing them and more about replacing other people on the roster, although I wouldn't hesitate to part with either if I needed to to make the team better.

by your theory, we are in trouble

[JMac1]

I am not a Wall fan. I don't like his game, a lot of hype. Neither are anything to write home about IMO.

[thamadkant]

If John Wall was wearing a Suns jersey and Bledsoe was wearing a Wizards one and someone mentioned Bledsoe was better than Wall here.. Almost everyone would laugh at that person.


John Wall is a proper play making PG with amazing athleticism. 19/10/5 with 2+ steals a game.

Bledsoe needs to step it up a lot to be comparable. And I like Bledsoe.

[Frank Lee]

Well.... we should see some difference in Bled i.e. improvement. This time last yr he was chummin around with his homies.... this yr... in the gym with his team mates. Hopefully that will translate to something.

[Saberestar]

The http://nba.com rookie survey tabbed Suns guard Devin Booker as the best shooter of his class with 59% of the rookies' votes

.

[NavLDO]

I don't know what Bledsoe does significantly better than Wall. Wall is a pretty damn good defender and he's a natural PG with great scoring instincts too.

Everytime they go H2H it feels like bledose out plays him.

But besides that Bledsoe has either been a backup PG or sharing PG with a two PG system. He has never been "the" PG.

I take that into serious consideration. I think he's a 20/8 guy with animal defense in a traditional lineup. That is a good rebounder for his position

Bledsoe has had his share as the sole PG plenty of times. And he's just not that good of a facilitator or leader. He doesn't have that PG mindset. I also think his defense isn't a whole lot better than Wall's either. Wall right now is also a comparable scorer. Bledsoe is a marginally better rebounder, I'll give him that.

Wall right now is already a 18-20ppg, 8-10apg player with All-NBA defense.

OK, I think everyone has mistaken my original point, which was "Is Wall REALLY THAT MUCH BETTER than Bledsoe?" And funny how no one jumped on the statement immediately following about Evan Turner, taken 2nd. My POINT was, is Wall a 'superstar' that the league is watching closely to take the Wizards to the promised land? The answer is no, and Wall is not any better equipped to be a #1 on a championship team than Bledsoe.

So, the retort will no doubt be "it was a weak draft", and I'd reply "thank you for further making my original point." Yes, Wall is better, but if the Wizards tanked that year, they got screwed, because Cousins or George, taken 5th and 10th, are more likely to be a #1 on a championship team than Wall.

We already 'tanked' one year; I'm not interested in tanking again, when the prospects of getting a player that will lead the Suns to a championship via a draft pick is a lower chance than getting one via trade or FA. That was really the crux of my argument--it was never about whether Wall is better than Bledsoe. Wall was selected 1st; Bledsoe 18th, and neither is closer than the other to a championship. And is Wall the #1 of a Big 3?