Game 29: Milwaukee Bucks (10-18) @ Phoenix Suns (12-16)

[batsmasher]

Defenders focus on Bledsoe. It's easy to guard. You know he's not passing the ball to Leuer, Tucker and Tyson so they play him tight. That's why him and Knight play hot potato all game, we have a lot of bad players. When Warren is in, it definitely helps Bledsoe.


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Good Post.

Totally agree. But we can't "fix" the turnovers. They're both just turnover prone players. Knight plays like the game is too quick for him, especially out of the PnR. Bled's prone to just be loose with the ball.

All the more reason to find a starting PF on the trade market so we can send Leuer back to the bench. We desperately need that extra option on offense and I don't think it's TJ's job. We still need that experience in the starting lineup.

[batsmasher]

As a side note. Horny cops way too much flack around the internet. Yes, he should be the one orchestrating things but he can't physically make this team make better plays. You have to draw the line somewhere.

[KLEON]

Tucker hustles he not a good defender

Breathtaking analysis.

I'm guessing you are a fan of Tucker

[bwgood77]

The Tucker hate on this board is insane, but Warren shouldve been the one to finish the game. Hornacek isnt the right coach for this team. bwgood has been preaching patience on him, coz he wanted to see how Horny would do without Kieff, but now that Kieff isnt really playing all that much, were not really any better. Now i wanna see this same team under another coach. Chances are, we either go up or go down the rankings, and thats better than where we are now.

Oh and Terrence Jones is trash. Hes no savior.

I agree. Warren DEFINITELY should have been in at the end, at least when we had the ball. I wouldn't mind a new coach at this point, but I don't know about the assistants. Maybe one would do better, maybe one worse. I guess the positive is, with the east so much more solid, even if you finish 9th in the west, it could mean like the 9th pick, and if you finish 11th, you could possibly get the 7th pick (and a much better chance to jump into top 3 at 15%). I just don't want to make the wrong choice for a NEXT coach, which would be horror. Hornacek was at least pretty impressive with smarter players in an even tougher western conference and with Bledsoe out half the year. I don't understand his rotations at times though.

[AtheJ415]

Defenders focus on Bledsoe. It's easy to guard. You know he's not passing the ball to Leuer, Tucker and Tyson so they play him tight. That's why him and Knight play hot potato all game, we have a lot of bad players. When Warren is in, it definitely helps Bledsoe.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

Good Post.

Totally agree. But we can't "fix" the turnovers. They're both just turnover prone players. Knight plays like the game is too quick for him, especially out of the PnR. Bled's prone to just be loose with the ball.

All the more reason to find a starting PF on the trade market so we can send Leuer back to the bench. We desperately need that extra option on offense and I don't think it's TJ's job. We still need that experience in the starting lineup.

I disagree on the turnover aspect. Being lose with the ball is fixable through drills in practice. You slow down the PnR through experience and muscle memory/by running a ton of PnR's in practice. And it's not just our guards. Things like bigs not expecting the ball are focus and accountability. Not expecting the ball on the fast break is focus and accountability. Moving screens, offensive 3 seconds, etc. are a combination of practice, focus, and accountability. You can most certainly teach a team to be disciplined. That would cut down on a large amount of our turnovers.

To Hornacek's point, we haven't had a lot of practice, but some of these have been issues for years across many players, including players we've since moved, so this isn't an issue that is individual to the players imo.

[Cutter]

Apparently Hornacek is losing his mind in the post-game interview.

What did he say?

It was sort of funny and sad at the same time. He commented that the team had 21 turnovers tonight, then said "they were just throwing the ball everywhere". He honestly looks like he and the other coaches do not know how to turn this around.

[batsmasher]

Tucker hustles he not a good defender

Breathtaking analysis.

I'm guessing you are a fan of Tucker

I'm a fan of good arguments.

[bwgood77]

Another issue is our turnovers. That falls on Hornacek too. You cannot average 17 a game and win. We have the same common themes all year. Guards or our SF's see how the D is overaggressively playing a pick and roll, and throw the pop or roll passes really early, and our bigs don't expect the pass (which falls on the bigs imo), resulting in a turnover and almost always fast break points because these soft passes end up in live balls. Our offense shuts down, somebody (usually a guard) tries to do too much and dribbles into traffic, another common turnover issue. Stupid passes is another. People of all positions assuming a shot on a fast break so they stop moving or turn away, which is especially hurtful to winning because you're losing transition points in the process. The stationary man in the corner attempting to do really anything other than shoot, except for the occasional Warren baseline floater, often results in a travel, a bad shot, dribbling off the foot, or an insanely bad shot from a guy like Tucker, which is as bad as a turnover.

I'm sick of the wasted possessions. I expect it early in the year when players are getting used to one another, but many of these should've been cleaned up by now. And that's a coaching issue every bit as much as it would fall on any of the players.

I am not sure how you can conclude that turnovers are a coaching issue, but I definitely disagree with that. Hornacek has made questionable moves, but most of their turnovers are inexplicable dumb actions by players that have nothing do with the coach.

[AtheJ415]

As a side note. Horny cops way too much flack around the internet. Yes, he should be the one orchestrating things but he can't physically make this team make better plays. You have to draw the line somewhere.

True, but I hear that from every single struggling team that is considering firing their coach. At some point, when you don't see improvement, the coach is accountable. My issue isn't even necessarily our overall record, it's the lack of improvement as a team across the board. I think our individual players' skills are better than last year, but our team defense, our turnovers, and other things are worse and haven't been getting better as the year has gone on. We are over a quarter of the way through the season.

[AtheJ415]

Another issue is our turnovers. That falls on Hornacek too. You cannot average 17 a game and win. We have the same common themes all year. Guards or our SF's see how the D is overaggressively playing a pick and roll, and throw the pop or roll passes really early, and our bigs don't expect the pass (which falls on the bigs imo), resulting in a turnover and almost always fast break points because these soft passes end up in live balls. Our offense shuts down, somebody (usually a guard) tries to do too much and dribbles into traffic, another common turnover issue. Stupid passes is another. People of all positions assuming a shot on a fast break so they stop moving or turn away, which is especially hurtful to winning because you're losing transition points in the process. The stationary man in the corner attempting to do really anything other than shoot, except for the occasional Warren baseline floater, often results in a travel, a bad shot, dribbling off the foot, or an insanely bad shot from a guy like Tucker, which is as bad as a turnover.

I'm sick of the wasted possessions. I expect it early in the year when players are getting used to one another, but many of these should've been cleaned up by now. And that's a coaching issue every bit as much as it would fall on any of the players.

I am not sure how you can conclude that turnovers are a coaching issue, but I definitely disagree with that. Hornacek has made questionable moves, but most of their turnovers are inexplicable dumb actions by players that have nothing do with the coach.

I don't think most of them are of the incredibly stupid variety. We do have some a game, and those you can't put on the coach. But we have others, and even Hornacek himself says we aren't strong enough with the ball and need to practice that to cut down on turnovers. I just think we should've improved at least a little bit on that end at this point.

This other post kind of sums up why I'm putting it on Hornacek:

"I disagree on the turnover aspect. Being lose with the ball is fixable through drills in practice. You slow down the PnR through experience and muscle memory/by running a ton of PnR's in practice. And it's not just our guards. Things like bigs not expecting the ball are focus and accountability. Not expecting the ball on the fast break is focus and accountability. Moving screens, offensive 3 seconds, etc. are a combination of practice, focus, and accountability. You can most certainly teach a team to be disciplined. That would cut down on a large amount of our turnovers.

To Hornacek's point, we haven't had a lot of practice, but some of these have been issues for years across many players, including players we've since moved, so this isn't an issue that is individual to the players imo."

[lilfishi22]

Another issue is our turnovers. That falls on Hornacek too. You cannot average 17 a game and win. We have the same common themes all year. Guards or our SF's see how the D is overaggressively playing a pick and roll, and throw the pop or roll passes really early, and our bigs don't expect the pass (which falls on the bigs imo), resulting in a turnover and almost always fast break points because these soft passes end up in live balls. Our offense shuts down, somebody (usually a guard) tries to do too much and dribbles into traffic, another common turnover issue. Stupid passes is another. People of all positions assuming a shot on a fast break so they stop moving or turn away, which is especially hurtful to winning because you're losing transition points in the process. The stationary man in the corner attempting to do really anything other than shoot, except for the occasional Warren baseline floater, often results in a travel, a bad shot, dribbling off the foot, or an insanely bad shot from a guy like Tucker, which is as bad as a turnover.

I'm sick of the wasted possessions. I expect it early in the year when players are getting used to one another, but many of these should've been cleaned up by now. And that's a coaching issue every bit as much as it would fall on any of the players.

I am not sure how you can conclude that turnovers are a coaching issue, but I definitely disagree with that. Hornacek has made questionable moves, but most of their turnovers are inexplicable dumb actions by players that have nothing do with the coach.

I agree. I don't see how it is a coaching issue. The coach puts plays together where all he asks is for the player to make the "right" pass, it is then up to the player to decide in that moment, which pass is the right one. Whether it is a lob to a big man or a simple pass cross the top of the key, that's part of practice which is not really conducted by the head coach.

In game situations, the coach can only hope the player is smart enough to make the safe pass in that situation in order for the play to continue.

[RunDogGun]

Yeah. I'm not going to get into a debate over strawman arguments with a guy who made 2 lengthy posts regarding just that. He's an awful offensive player. He averages 6 points, 1.2 assists, on 40% from the field, 28% from 3, and 71% from FT. That is awful. As in, he must be really good at everything else or else he wouldn't be in the league awful. Anything, data or not, that suggests otherwise is nonsense. He's a good defensive player and rebounder. That's why he's in the league. I've never said otherwise. I've never said he isn't an elite defender, never said he isn't an elite rebounder, and see no reason to debate otherwise. But tell me a 30 year old with these traits is useful long-term to a team that's core is 19-26 year olds, and I'll tell you you are simply wrong. By the time we are ready to really win, he will be absolutely useless to us, and since that is the priority for a rebuilding team, he is nearly useless to us now. Tucker is the guy a team ready to compete needs to do the little things, and we are not that team, and probably won't be that team for another 3-5 years.

Cool story. Straw man?

Yeah. Strawman. As in arguing about something I never claimed. He claimed I thought PJ wasn't a good defender simply because I didn't think he was defending at the level he has in the past in my opinion. See,that's very different from suggesting he is no longer a good defender, or even that he isn't an elite defender. He essentially wrote multiple posts debating stuff I agreed with, and trying to justify a never before seen defensive rotation. That's not a worthwhile discussion to me.

You brought up Tucker's defense in your first post in that topic. I thought GMAT stayed on topic, and addressed each one of your comments separately. Oh well, again, I'm I don't feel the need to through it again. Have a good night, sir.

[lilfishi22]

As a side note. Horny cops way too much flack around the internet. Yes, he should be the one orchestrating things but he can't physically make this team make better plays. You have to draw the line somewhere.

True, but I hear that from every single struggling team that is considering firing their coach. At some point, when you don't see improvement, the coach is accountable. My issue isn't even necessarily our overall record, it's the lack of improvement as a team across the board. I think our individual players' skills are better than last year, but our team defense, our turnovers, and other things are worse and haven't been getting better as the year has gone on. We are over a quarter of the way through the season.

The coach is always accountable but I don't think he's the root of our issues. I think the dual PG set up is. With two players who either aren't good passers or don't have the IQ, a dual PG back court isn't going to work. You can fire Hornacek but who can realistically come in and make this back court work for the team? This is really an McD issue (and Hornacek if he's endorsed this) for putting together a roster that doesn't have the IQ for simple ball rotations and multiple ball stoppers.

[Barkley_34]

Our group is unstable, the situation of Kieff bother all the other players. He would have a tremendous importance to this team. The more experienced players are not scorers, the attack is very focused on our guards, Bledsoe has a level of All Star, playing very well (although this game) and the Knight who is 23 and is really very inconstant. if one of them does not have a good night, the team suffers and defeat these types of happen. In my opinion the jeff have to start the warren and give more scoring options for the team, surely he would make more than 15 ppg with ease. I believe our GM to change the pattern of this team will have to invest another veteran pf or negotiate our veterans in young and give playing time to the kids. At that moment Tucker, Kieff and Chandler are not contributing much, ideally they start from the bench. These changes could improve the team's combinations.

[AtheJ415]

It's like a coach in football who is able to come in and the team suddenly commits a lot fewer penalties and turnovers. You can coach discipline and avoiding making mistakes, by running drills designed to avoid jumping offsides, by having all players practice holding the ball high and tight while people rip at it. Yes, the players are at fault with all of these things, but the lack of improvement is on the coaches. These things can be improved imo, just like Tony Parker was coached up to become a much smarter player, instead of the overdribbling contested shot junkie he was when he first came into the league.

[AtheJ415]

As a side note. Horny cops way too much flack around the internet. Yes, he should be the one orchestrating things but he can't physically make this team make better plays. You have to draw the line somewhere.

True, but I hear that from every single struggling team that is considering firing their coach. At some point, when you don't see improvement, the coach is accountable. My issue isn't even necessarily our overall record, it's the lack of improvement as a team across the board. I think our individual players' skills are better than last year, but our team defense, our turnovers, and other things are worse and haven't been getting better as the year has gone on. We are over a quarter of the way through the season.

The coach is always accountable but I don't think he's the root of our issues. I think the dual PG set up is. With two players who either aren't good passers or don't have the IQ, a dual PG back court isn't going to work. You can fire Hornacek but who can realistically come in and make this back court work for the team? This is really an McD issue (and Hornacek if he's endorsed this) for putting together a roster that doesn't have the IQ for simple ball rotations and multiple ball stoppers.

Whose idea is the dual PG setup though? It's Hornacek's system.

[StarMaker]

As a side note. Horny cops way too much flack around the internet. Yes, he should be the one orchestrating things but he can't physically make this team make better plays. You have to draw the line somewhere.

True, but I hear that from every single struggling team that is considering firing their coach. At some point, when you don't see improvement, the coach is accountable. My issue isn't even necessarily our overall record, it's the lack of improvement as a team across the board. I think our individual players' skills are better than last year, but our team defense, our turnovers, and other things are worse and haven't been getting better as the year has gone on. We are over a quarter of the way through the season.

The coach is always accountable but I don't think he's the root of our issues. I think the dual PG set up is. With two players who either aren't good passers or don't have the IQ, a dual PG back court isn't going to work. You can fire Hornacek but who can realistically come in and make this back court work for the team? This is really an McD issue (and Hornacek if he's endorsed this) for putting together a roster that doesn't have the IQ for simple ball rotations and multiple ball stoppers.

Sounds good! So I hope McD and Horny are fired soon. Both of them are accountable. They are below-average GM and head coach.

[AtheJ415]

True, but I hear that from every single struggling team that is considering firing their coach. At some point, when you don't see improvement, the coach is accountable. My issue isn't even necessarily our overall record, it's the lack of improvement as a team across the board. I think our individual players' skills are better than last year, but our team defense, our turnovers, and other things are worse and haven't been getting better as the year has gone on. We are over a quarter of the way through the season.

The coach is always accountable but I don't think he's the root of our issues. I think the dual PG set up is. With two players who either aren't good passers or don't have the IQ, a dual PG back court isn't going to work. You can fire Hornacek but who can realistically come in and make this back court work for the team? This is really an McD issue (and Hornacek if he's endorsed this) for putting together a roster that doesn't have the IQ for simple ball rotations and multiple ball stoppers.

Sounds good! So I hope McD and Horny are fired soon. Both of them are accountable. They are below-average GM and head coach.

Disagree on McD. Frankly, I think he's done a phenomenal job of acquiring talent. That's exactly what a rebuilding team needs.

[StarMaker]

The coach is always accountable but I don't think he's the root of our issues. I think the dual PG set up is. With two players who either aren't good passers or don't have the IQ, a dual PG back court isn't going to work. You can fire Hornacek but who can realistically come in and make this back court work for the team? This is really an McD issue (and Hornacek if he's endorsed this) for putting together a roster that doesn't have the IQ for simple ball rotations and multiple ball stoppers.

Sounds good! So I hope McD and Horny are fired soon. Both of them are accountable. They are below-average GM and head coach.

Disagree on McD. Frankly, I think he's done a phenomenal job of acquiring talent. That's exactly what a rebuilding team needs.

Really??? Then he would be a scout, not a GM. I don't think he is good at his job. His decision making I think is really bad like still holding Morris, trusting Horny.


I miss Bryan Colangelo. Under his regime, we didn't need to take 5 or 6 years to rebuild the team.

It's a really shame.

[RunDogGun]

Our group is unstable, the situation of Kieff bother all the other players. He would have a tremendous importance to this team. The more experienced players are not scorers, the attack is very focused on our guards, Bledsoe has a level of All Star, playing very well (although this game) and the Knight who is 23 and is really very inconstant. if one of them does not have a good night, the team suffers and defeat these types of happen. In my opinion the jeff have to start the warren and give more scoring options for the team, surely he would make more than 15 ppg with ease. I believe our GM to change the pattern of this team will have to invest another veteran pf or negotiate our veterans in young and give playing time to the kids. At that moment Tucker, Kieff and Chandler are not contributing much, ideally they start from the bench. These changes could improve the team's combinations.

But Warren has had his limitations this season as well. Often he takes really crappy shots, where no one is in position to rebound. On defense, he is pretty crappy as well. As GMAT pointed out in the other thread on defensive stats, Tucker is seventh amongst SF, and Warren is 80th. Our main issue stems from allowing players to get in rhythm while not being able to match. Chandler coming back injured doesn't help much either. But Len has a good game every other night, and some nights he just looks awful, and other nights a beast.

Our biggest issue is consistency and on some nights effort. I'd agree on Keiff not contributing much, but disagree on both Chandler and Tucker, although I'm not sure they should be in the same lineup until Tucker's three becomes more consistent, for right now they bring similar attributes. I think there is so much more that they bring than what shows up in box scores.