Game 36: Phoenix Suns (12-23) @ Sacramento Kings (12-20)

[RussellandFlow]

Tomorrow? Hornacek does not deserve to coach another game and should be fired tonight after the way the team played today. There should be a statement from Sarver that reads something along the lines of "We appreciate everything Jeff has done... Make Watson the interim coach and play the young guys. See if you can move Chandler to a contender or fringe contender, along with Tucker and Morris(more difficult) or just stretch him.

[saintEscaton]

Knight is only 23. We have been playing our young guys.

He's no spring chicken, he's essentially a young veteran in his fifth season who just started his NBA career early. He is what he is at this point ,some habits die hard and cannot be reverted.

No, he is a young player learning a whole new position.

He was running the point in Milwaukee and was more than the nominal PG/primary ballhandler the way he utilized, task with playmkaing duties (Not as much as a catch and shoot specialist because they had Middleton. He has actually regressed significantly in the same role) Some of it has to do with the lack of talent around him but the experiment has been failure thus far. When he's off he just ruins the flow of the offense and the Bucs were better without him on the floor. Check his career RPM and any other relevant metric.

[jeff2020]

Brandon knight with a solid -27 tonight

[AtheJ415]

It's a matter of playing youth correctly. Losing while playing correctly is fine, losing the way the Suns do is unacceptable. Yes, it has to do with players, but i think it's more on the coaching staff at this point.

The young players are learning to play losing basketball.

Losing never looks good from a passionate fans perspective. Hornacek is starting to develop Warren and Booker by giving then heavy heavy minutes. Having Leuer or Mirza play the C is not stupid, it's perfectly smart based on matchups. We have a certain style of play that we run by spreading the floor, taking a lot of 3's plus guard penetration and dishing to the perimeter. We started off decently the first part of the season, but obviously the wheels have fallen off and we are in young player development mode.

I personally am neutral on keeping Hornacek. Firing him and replacing him with another coach isnt going to fix anything. I am of the opinion our problems are talent level related, not coaching related.

We have a consistency issue. I'm not sure if it confidence or what, but we have a lot of guys that will keep chucking when they can't hit anything, and we don't get the ball to guys who are on fire.

We have an offense that is incredibly easy to adjust to. Sink in on the roll man when it's Chandler. Help off Tucker. If the roll man is a shooter (Leuer or Tele), play the pop and once the PG drives, everyone play the passing lanes and get a steal based off of any of the remaining motionless players. Our guards have to get better making decisions and our bigs need to expect the ball more often, but make no mistake, this offense accumulates turnovers, can't get assists, and goes through constant deadspells, in large part of its own doing. This motionless offense, particularly when you have a non-shooter or 2 on the court, is a disaster waiting to happen.

We've been at the bottom of the NBA in assists during Horancek's entire tenure despite playing more possessions each game, and it's not a coincidence.

[bwgood77]

The Kings have 103 points after three quarters. They are 12-20. They also just lost to the 76ers at home like the Suns did and scored a total of 105 points that entire game.

And they were favored by six and are not missing their best player.

I mean, I agree with you, this is ugly and after having guys like KJ, Kidd and Nash, our pgs are so often just terrible to watch. I don't know what we can do. They will be tough to trade.

I think the Suns could trade Knight as a salary dump. I mentioned this trade a couple times already of Knight, Markieff, and Tucker to the Nets for Joe Johnson just to get out of their contracts. Start Ronnie Price and Booker together the rest of the season and bring Johnson off the bench. Then maybe the Suns could trade Bledsoe on draft night for a top ten draft pick. Draft two guys and go young with everyone. Bring in Bogdanovich next year to back up Booker.

Joe Johnson blows these days but if Knight doesn't get any better, I honestly wouldn't mind that much (though I'd probably keep Bledsoe for now...he may not have much value), and then draft Dunn (unless we get a top 3 pick). Or maybe Jamal Murray, but I haven't looked at how he is doing yet. For McD, the Jamal Murray pick would be par for the course though.

Empower Bledsoe to be the pure PG instead of in more of a dual set and see how it works.

[saintEscaton]

And they were favored by six and are not missing their best player.

I mean, I agree with you, this is ugly and after having guys like KJ, Kidd and Nash, our pgs are so often just terrible to watch. I don't know what we can do. They will be tough to trade.

I think the Suns could trade Knight as a salary dump. I mentioned this trade a couple times already of Knight, Markieff, and Tucker to the Nets for Joe Johnson just to get out of their contracts. Start Ronnie Price and Booker together the rest of the season and bring Johnson off the bench. Then maybe the Suns could trade Bledsoe on draft night for a top ten draft pick. Draft two guys and go young with everyone. Bring in Bogdanovich next year to back up Booker.

Joe Johnson blows these days but if Knight doesn't get any better, I honestly wouldn't mind that much (though I'd probably keep Bledsoe for now...he may not have much value), and then draft Dunn (unless we get a top 3 pick). Or maybe Jamal Murray, but I haven't looked at how he is doing yet. For McD, the Jamal Murray pick would be par for the course though.

Empower Bledsoe to be the pure PG instead of in more of a dual set and see how it works.

Throw in Thaddeus Young and I'm sold

[thamadkant]

Knight will have value to a team looking for scoring and 3pt shooting at the PG slot.

76ers, Magic, Nets etc

[m1chal]

So we just gave up 142 to the Kings. I wonder what's worse: this or that loss to the 76ers?

[letsgosuns]

And they were favored by six and are not missing their best player.

I mean, I agree with you, this is ugly and after having guys like KJ, Kidd and Nash, our pgs are so often just terrible to watch. I don't know what we can do. They will be tough to trade.

I think the Suns could trade Knight as a salary dump. I mentioned this trade a couple times already of Knight, Markieff, and Tucker to the Nets for Joe Johnson just to get out of their contracts. Start Ronnie Price and Booker together the rest of the season and bring Johnson off the bench. Then maybe the Suns could trade Bledsoe on draft night for a top ten draft pick. Draft two guys and go young with everyone. Bring in Bogdanovich next year to back up Booker.

Joe Johnson blows these days but if Knight doesn't get any better, I honestly wouldn't mind that much (though I'd probably keep Bledsoe for now...he may not have much value), and then draft Dunn (unless we get a top 3 pick). Or maybe Jamal Murray, but I haven't looked at how he is doing yet. For McD, the Jamal Murray pick would be par for the course though.

Empower Bledsoe to be the pure PG instead of in more of a dual set and see how it works.

I am not saying to get Johnson to be on the team. He is an expiring contract. The Suns could even buy him out if they felt like it. This is a pure salary dump trade. Which would you rather have: Knight at 14 million per season or have 14 million in cap space? I choose the cap space.

[AtheJ415]

Someone posted this observation previously about how half this forum has been wanting to tank for draft picks, then once we start losing become outraged and want the coach fired. Seems bi-polar to me.

The issue is Hornacek is still playing heaps of veterans.

A committed tank coach is someone like Brett Brown and Scott.

Hornacek is desperate to leave Phoenix atleast with a 50/50 win loss record.

Yeah. And what's bothered me about this most is that if you look at the numbers, we win more games with TJ and Booker and Len than the vets ahead of them. It's not even close.

And somebody mentioned earlier that Hornacek, due to the roster and requirement of winning, must guess at a hot hand in the rotation. That to me is nonsense and not really an excuse for Hornacek. He sees these guys play daily. As the head coach, he should know who is better, and if it's close, he should side for the guy with the most upside. It's fairly basic.

[RunDogGun]

He's no spring chicken, he's essentially a young veteran in his fifth season who just started his NBA career early. He is what he is at this point ,some habits die hard and cannot be reverted.

No, he is a young player learning a whole new position.

He was running the point in Milwaukee and was more than the nominal PG/primary ballhandler the way he utilized. (Not as much as a catch and shoot specialist because they had Middleton. He has actually regressed significantly in the same role. Some of it has to do with the lack of talent around him but the experiment has been failure thus far.

No it hasn't. We asked him to completely change up his role, and now we are asking him to switch it back, with a bunch of guys that have little experience in the league. It would have been different if we had him running his own squad like we did with Goran, but we didn't do that. Instead we had Price run the second unit, which in my mind wasn't a bad choice, for I like Price's effort.

It is what it is now, but he is still young, as is much of our team, many of whom have little NBA experience besides Price and Chandler.

[bwgood77]

I don't know how we can keep Hornacek. This goes beyond personnel at this point. I think our rotations and X's and O's are faulty, and while individual skills have developed, our team execution overall hasn't. I mean, even after adjusting expectations to what we are (the worst defense in the league, for instance), improvement should still occur. Instead, we just continue to not get better as a team defensive unit. Rotations and team defensive concepts should be getting better and they aren't. It's not excusable.

But why do you think we played so competitively against Cleveland and OKC, and most every team on that eastern road trip? Hornacek has made some bad coaching rotations, but I really don't know that Earl Watson or whoever would have done much better so far. I think we should gradually get better regardless of coach as the young guys continue to gain confidence though.

I can assume Cavs played below their usual. I know I watch heaps of their games and Lebron was FLAT in that game.

Thunder?... Suns looked energized and Thunder didnt take Suns seriously.


Letting Kings score 142 in regulation is a crisis defensively.

It is a crisis but some of us knew that when Warren and Booker started, particularly if it was this year, our defense would drop off a cliff. Add to that, no Bledsoe so we have three terrible defenders at 1/2/3 and you are not going to get many stops. We run, so teams get more possessions too so that amplifies it.

Make no mistake, I'm not saying 142 points is excusable but our defense will be hard pressed to look good right now with those guys playing lots of minutes, the latter part of which we all want.

If Thibs was here, I doubt those guys would see much time. We would probably play Price, Tucker, Leuer, Kieff and Chandler the most minutes with who we have left.

[RunDogGun]

Someone posted this observation previously about how half this forum has been wanting to tank for draft picks, then once we start losing become outraged and want the coach fired. Seems bi-polar to me.

The issue is Hornacek is still playing heaps of veterans.

A committed tank coach is someone like Brett Brown and Scott.

Hornacek is desperate to leave Phoenix atleast with a 50/50 win loss record.

Yeah. And what's bothered me about this most is that if you look at the numbers, we win more games with TJ and Booker and Len than the vets ahead of them. It's not even close.

And somebody mentioned earlier that Hornacek, due to the roster and requirement of winning, must guess at a hot hand in the rotation. That to me is nonsense and not really an excuse for Hornacek. He sees these guys play daily. As the head coach, he should know who is better, and if it's close, he should side for the guy with the most upside. It's fairly basic.

Len has been taking himself out of games with his fouling.

[bwgood77]

Someone posted this observation previously about how half this forum has been wanting to tank for draft picks, then once we start losing become outraged and want the coach fired. Seems bi-polar to me.

The issue is Hornacek is still playing heaps of veterans.

A committed tank coach is someone like Brett Brown and Scott.

Hornacek is desperate to leave Phoenix atleast with a 50/50 win loss record.

Yeah. And what's bothered me about this most is that if you look at the numbers, we win more games with TJ and Booker and Len than the vets ahead of them. It's not even close.

And somebody mentioned earlier that Hornacek, due to the roster and requirement of winning, must guess at a hot hand in the rotation. That to me is nonsense and not really an excuse for Hornacek. He sees these guys play daily. As the head coach, he should know who is better, and if it's close, he should side for the guy with the most upside. It's fairly basic.

Well, that was in regards to Weems and Goodwin, which are basically now both on the bench, so he's probably done the right thing there.

And, about looking at the numbers, and winning more games with young guys, since we have started them both we have zero wins, so that hasn't projected out too well if we are talking wins.

[JayBenzy]

Damn. We suck.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

[kennydorglas]

That's how u tank.
I'm impressed.

[letsgosuns]

Scott Howard
‏@ScottHoward42
142 are the most points surrendered by a Suns team in a non-overtime game since December 4, 1990 against the Bulls http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199012040CHI.html …

Hornacek part of both of these teams.

[jredsaz]

Wholly molly! Solidify bottom of the standings positioning with play like that.

[AtheJ415]

Knight will have value to a team looking for scoring and 3pt shooting at the PG slot.

76ers, Magic, Nets etc

He still has value. Nobody loses all value after half a season when they're in their 5th year. Not absent massive injuries.

I just wonder how long we sit here blaming each and every acquisition we make for why they can't perform on this team before we start questioning the scheme, because this goes beyond Knight. We can't find a way to use Chandler to his strengths. Couldn't find a way to use Dragic to his strengths once we added IT. Couldn't find a way to use TJ until **** hit the fan this year even though it's pretty obvious to me he should've seen more minutes this year. Same for Booker. Can't find a way to play defense with a lineup of Chandler, Tucker, Bledsoe, Knight, and Leuer. Knight is the only bad defender of that group. I mean, we have proven guys who can't play on our team once we acquire them.

[bwgood77]

I think the Suns could trade Knight as a salary dump. I mentioned this trade a couple times already of Knight, Markieff, and Tucker to the Nets for Joe Johnson just to get out of their contracts. Start Ronnie Price and Booker together the rest of the season and bring Johnson off the bench. Then maybe the Suns could trade Bledsoe on draft night for a top ten draft pick. Draft two guys and go young with everyone. Bring in Bogdanovich next year to back up Booker.

Joe Johnson blows these days but if Knight doesn't get any better, I honestly wouldn't mind that much (though I'd probably keep Bledsoe for now...he may not have much value), and then draft Dunn (unless we get a top 3 pick). Or maybe Jamal Murray, but I haven't looked at how he is doing yet. For McD, the Jamal Murray pick would be par for the course though.

Empower Bledsoe to be the pure PG instead of in more of a dual set and see how it works.

I am not saying to get Johnson to be on the team. He is an expiring contract. The Suns could even buy him out if they felt like it. This is a pure salary dump trade. Which would you rather have: Knight at 14 million per season or have 14 million in cap space? I choose the cap space.

Yes, I knew what you were saying. Earlier I thought you thought Johnson had something left and could be a good mentor. I doubt that. But that's why I would consider it, because he expires, but I don't know that there is much we could do with all that cap space immediately, but it would clear it up considerably for the future. I doubt McD does it, because he gave up what he did for Knight and raved about how Chandler would provide leadership.

If he gets ousted and a new GM comes in though, who knows?